zeromg: Effexor / venlafaxine withdrawal - panic

[zeromg]

May 28
3:30 Awake, then asleep
4:20 25 mg hydroxyzine 
5AM Awake
7AM lorazepam 0.5 mg 
2PM anxiety 6, lorazepam 0.5 mg 
6:30 anxiety 3
7:50 anxiety 1
9:30 anxiety 0, risperidone 0.75 mg 
10PM asleep
 

[zeromg]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

The symptoms you report may be due to your inconsistent drug schedule. Please maintain exactly the same dosing schedule. Please include these spells of "akathisia" in your daily notes.

They're not really spells. It's there throughout the whole day but increasing and decreasing in severity. 

[Altostrata]

Please include these periods of worsened "akathisia" in your daily notes.

[Shep]

20 hours ago, zeromg said:

They're not really spells. It's there throughout the whole day but increasing and decreasing in severity. 

 

Are these feelings / sensations so intense they make you feel like you need to move your body a lot? Or is it mainly just very, very anxious thoughts? 

 

Is this what you're going through when it's more severe? 

 

Akathisia video (2 minutes)

[zeromg]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Are these feelings / sensations so intense they make you feel like you need to move your body a lot? Or is it mainly just very, very anxious thoughts? 

 

Is this what you're going through when it's more severe? 

 

Akathisia video (2 minutes)

I can lie down or sit with my feet up but, if I sit with my feet on the floor or stand still, my body gets extremely uncomfortable and I feel a sense of dread.  Also, randomly throughout the day, I get a terrible feeling in my solar plexus and chest that is beyond just severe anxiety. Using a vibrating massager on that area helps somewhat but I mostly just have to wait for it to pass. I also get:

• anxiety, agitation, feeling emotionally uneasy, dysphoria, difficulty sleeping, distress, a feeling of wanting to jump out of my skin, dark and unpleasant thoughts, suicidality (these symptoms are listed at rxisk.org/akathisia)

[Altostrata]

Please include these periods of worsened "akathisia" in your daily notes.

[zeromg]

31 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Please include these periods of worsened "akathisia" in your daily notes.

May 29

4:20 AM 25 mg hydroxyzine 

5:08 Awake, then asleep

5:30 Awake

6:50 lorazepam 0.5 mg, akathisia 8

10:52 akathisia 8

2PM 0.5 mg lorazepam, anxiety 5, akathisia 1

9:30 risperidone 0.75 mg 

10:30 Asleep

[Altostrata]

How do you feel after the 2 p.m. dose  of lorazepam?

[zeromg]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How do you feel after the 2 p.m. dose  of lorazepam?

I almost always start feeling better in the afternoons and by night I feel almost completely okay. 

[zeromg]

May 30

3:30 awake then asleep

4:30 25 mg hydroxyzine 

5:26 Awake 

6:55 anxiety/akathisia 7, lorazepam 0.5 mg 

8:07 anxiety 5, akathisia 1

9:02 akathisia 6

11:35 anxiety 5, akathisia 1

2PM 0.5 mg lorazepam, anxiety 6, akathisia 3

2:30 anxiety 3, akathisia 1

4PM anxiety 6, akathisia 2

7:30 anxiety 2, akathisia 1

9:30 0.75 mg risperidone

10PM asleep

[zeromg]

May 31

3:30 Awake then asleep

4:20 Awake, 25 mg hydroxyzine 

6:55 anxiety 7, akathisia 4, lorazepam 0.5 mg 

11AM anxiety 7, akathisia 4

2PM lorazepam 0.5 mg, anxiety 5, akathisia 2

3:41 anxiety 4, akathisia 1

8PM asleep

9:30 Risperidone 0.75 mg 

[zeromg]

June 1
3:30 (?) awake then asleep, (25 mg hydroxyzine)
4AM Awake 
4:20 25 mg hydroxyzine
6:55 0.5 mg lorazepam,  anxiety 7, akathisia 5
7:53 anxiety 7, akathisia 3
2PM anxiety 7, akathisia 5, lorazepam 0.5 mg 
3:41 anxiety 7, akathisia 5
5:03 anxiety 4, akathisia 2
6:16 anxiety 1, akathisia 1
9:30 anxiety 0, akathisia 0, risperidone 0.75 mg 
10PM asleep

[zeromg]

June 2

4:30 25 mg hydroxyzine

6AM awake

6:55 anxiety 8, akathisia 5, lorazepam 0.5 mg

12:34 anxiety 6, akathisia 4

2PM anxiety 7, akathisia 4, lorazepam 0.5 mg 

3:05 anxiety 4, akathisia 2

7:48 anxiety 0, akathisia 0

9PM (?) Asleep

9:30 risperidone 0.75 mg 

[Altostrata]

In my opinion, you are probably getting interdose withdrawal from lorazepam and need to spread your dosing out more. @Shep what do you think?

[Shep]

18 hours ago, Altostrata said:

In my opinion, you are probably getting interdose withdrawal from lorazepam and need to spread your dosing out more. @Shep what do you think?

 

I'm not sure. There seems to be a paradoxical reaction to the hydroxyzine, at least on these days:

 

On 5/30/2023 at 11:34 AM, zeromg said:

May 29

4:20 AM 25 mg hydroxyzine 

5:08 Awake, then asleep

5:30 Awake

 

On 5/31/2023 at 3:39 PM, zeromg said:

May 30

3:30 awake then asleep

4:30 25 mg hydroxyzine 

5:26 Awake 

 

On 6/2/2023 at 8:41 PM, zeromg said:

June 1
3:30 (?) awake then asleep, (25 mg hydroxyzine)
4AM Awake 
4:20 25 mg hydroxyzine

 

@zeromg Did you take hydroxyzine twice on June 1? Or is this a typo? 

 

Do you feel wired and awake 30 - 60 minutes after taking hydroxzyine most of the time? 

 

On 5/31/2023 at 3:39 PM, zeromg said:

I almost always start feeling better in the afternoons and by night I feel almost completely okay. 

 

I'm wondering if the hydroxyzine may be setting the stage for feeling worse in the mornings. 

[zeromg]

7 hours ago, Shep said:

 

I'm not sure. There seems to be a paradoxical reaction to the hydroxyzine, at least on these days:

7 hours ago, Shep said:

 

 

 

@zeromg Did you take hydroxyzine twice on June 1? Or is this a typo? 

 

Do you feel wired and awake 30 - 60 minutes after taking hydroxzyine most of the time? 

 

 

I'm wondering if the hydroxyzine may be setting the stage for feeling worse in the mornings. 

That was a typo. I did not take it twice. 

I only started taking the hydroxyzine in December. I was already experiencing these morning symptoms for several weeks. It's why I started taking the hydroxyzine. 

[zeromg]

I don't understand why you don't believe that my symptoms are due to antidepressant withdrawal. 

[Shep]

@zeromg You may want to research the problems people have with benzos. Robert Whitaker's book Anatomy of an Epidemic explores these drugs in the chapter "The Benzo Trap" and there's a wealth of information online. 

 

You're not dealing solely with antidepressant withdrawal - you're dealing with the problems of polypharmacy. 

[zeromg]

3 hours ago, Shep said:

@zeromg You may want to research the problems people have with benzos. Robert Whitaker's book Anatomy of an Epidemic explores these drugs in the chapter "The Benzo Trap" and there's a wealth of information online. 

 

You're not dealing solely with antidepressant withdrawal - you're dealing with the problems of polypharmacy. 

I'm very much aware of the problems people have with benzos. Benzos (and all of these drugs, for that matter) enter into every tissue and organ in our bodies. This leaves the possibility of countless side effects and withdrawal symptoms throughout our entire bodies. I know about inter-dose withdrawal, paradoxical reactions, and drug tolerance withdrawal. These drugs are poison and should not be legal. 

 

That being said, just because the drugs I'm still taking can cause symptoms doesn't mean that the symptoms I'm experiencing now are caused by those drugs. 

 

I tried to get off Effexor several times in the past. The symptoms and patterns were the same as they are now, and I wasn't even taking lorazepam or hydroxyzine at the time. And even though I was taking risperidone at the time, it had nothing to do with the symptoms I was having. I know this because I didn't have those symptoms before discontinuing Effexor or after reinstating it, even though I was taking risperidone before, during, and after discontinuing. In fact, in 2016, even though I reinstated the Effexor, the withdrawal symptoms didn't go away until after I INCREASED the dose of risperidone.

 

As far as last year, I had been taking risperidone for 12 years and lorazepam for almost a year and they never caused the symptoms I'm having now. The symptoms started after I discontinued the Prozac and Effexor in August. 

 

I know my body and I know what antidepressant withdrawal feels like for me. 

 

Believe me, I know the horrors of polypharmacy and the severe damage it can do to our bodies. Nobody wants me off these drugs more than I do and it's something I plan to do - but in the future, after I'm stabilized from the antidepressant withdrawal. I think it would be very unwise for me to taper another drug and risk additional withdrawal while still in the state that I'm in now. 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, zeromg said:

I'm very much aware of the problems people have with benzos. Benzos (and all of these drugs, for that matter) enter into every tissue and organ in our bodies. This leaves the possibility of countless side effects and withdrawal symptoms throughout our entire bodies. I know about inter-dose withdrawal, paradoxical reactions, and drug tolerance withdrawal. These drugs are poison and should not be legal. 

 

 

Yes, beznos are extremely problematic. But you came to this site in 2016 and started benzos in 2021. I just re-read the 5 pages of your thread and I would encourage you to do so, too. Learning from your past is a great way not to make the same mistakes in the future. You have brought in a number of problematic variables to the mix after joining SA - lamotrigine, hydroxyzine, lithium, as well as St. John's wort and energy shots. 

 

19 hours ago, zeromg said:

As far as last year, I had been taking risperidone for 12 years and lorazepam for almost a year and they never caused the symptoms I'm having now. The symptoms started after I discontinued the Prozac and Effexor in August. 

 

According to what you just wrote a few weeks ago, your symptoms have changed much more recently than in August:

 

On 5/6/2023 at 6:07 PM, zeromg said:

The depression decreased significantly about 4 weeks ago and now I'm dealing with really bad anxiety. I'm not sure if it's worse than before or if I just notice it more because the depression isn't that bad. 

 

It's this change in symptoms from depression to anxiety (possibly akathisia) that Alto and I were trying to help you with.

 

As Alto noted:

 

On 6/3/2023 at 11:21 AM, Altostrata said:

In my opinion, you are probably getting interdose withdrawal from lorazepam and need to spread your dosing out more. @Shep what do you think?

 

Over time, we have different reactions to drugs, supplements, and even foods, as the nervous system tries to adapt, sometimes becoming hypersensitive to the point of kindling. If you can pinpoint these types of issues and work to refine your current drug cocktail by spacing out the drugs, refine your diet away from food that triggers, bring in more targeted non-drug coping skills, etc. you may be able to get enough relief to get you through the waves without any more drug or supplement additions. 

 

19 hours ago, zeromg said:

Believe me, I know the horrors of polypharmacy and the severe damage it can do to our bodies. Nobody wants me off these drugs more than I do and it's something I plan to do - but in the future, after I'm stabilized from the antidepressant withdrawal. I think it would be very unwise for me to taper another drug and risk additional withdrawal while still in the state that I'm in now. 

 

We weren't looking at tapering, yet. We were looking at possibly spacing out the benzo more to make you more comfortable from the akathisia, which you yourself noted is a NEW symptom and not a leftover of your AD withdrawal. 

 

At this point, with all of the many changes you've had, holding may be the best thing you can do. But please do everyone - especially yourself - a favor and stop trying to fix your withdrawal symptoms by adding in more drugs or supplements and taking everything on a consistent basis. If you can do this, you'll have a much better chance of finally getting off the polypharmacy merry-go-round. We simply don't know of any drugs, supplements, etc. that will fix withdrawal. 

 

 

[Altostrata]

@zeromg why are you taking hydroxyzine at about 4 a.m.? How do you feel before and after taking hydroxyzine?

 

How do you feel before and after taking each benzo dose?

 

We are trying to see what effect your current drug regimen has on your symptom pattern. Not everything is withdrawal. Adverse drug reactions are very common and may be relieved by making small changes. Are you interested in cooperating with this?

[zeromg]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:05 AM, Shep said:

 

Yes, beznos are extremely problematic. But you came to this site in 2016 and started benzos in 2021. I just re-read the 5 pages of your thread and I would encourage you to do so, too. Learning from your past is a great way not to make the same mistakes in the future. You have brought in a number of problematic variables to the mix after joining SA - lamotrigine, hydroxyzine, lithium, as well as St. John's wort and energy shots. 

 

 

According to what you just wrote a few weeks ago, your symptoms have changed much more recently than in August:

 

 

It's this change in symptoms from depression to anxiety (possibly akathisia) that Alto and I were trying to help you with.

 

As Alto noted:

 

 

Over time, we have different reactions to drugs, supplements, and even foods, as the nervous system tries to adapt, sometimes becoming hypersensitive to the point of kindling. If you can pinpoint these types of issues and work to refine your current drug cocktail by spacing out the drugs, refine your diet away from food that triggers, bring in more targeted non-drug coping skills, etc. you may be able to get enough relief to get you through the waves without any more drug or supplement additions. 

 

 

We weren't looking at tapering, yet. We were looking at possibly spacing out the benzo more to make you more comfortable from the akathisia, which you yourself noted is a NEW symptom and not a leftover of your AD withdrawal. 

 

At this point, with all of the many changes you've had, holding may be the best thing you can do. But please do everyone - especially yourself - a favor and stop trying to fix your withdrawal symptoms by adding in more drugs or supplements and taking everything on a consistent basis. If you can do this, you'll have a much better chance of finally getting off the polypharmacy merry-go-round. We simply don't know of any drugs, supplements, etc. that will fix withdrawal. 

On 6/6/2023 at 6:05 AM, Shep said:

 

Just to clarify a few points:

 

I was on lamotrigine since about 2005. I changed my signature to show that. I only had a question mark there before because I'm not sure of the year but it was around 2005. The energy shots I was using since at least 2011. I quit both since coming to SA in 2016. I used the lithium and SJW for less than a week. I wish you could understand how desperately I want to feel better and how desperation can make people make poor choices, even if they know better. 

 

The depression resolved almost completely on its own but the anxiety/akathisia is still there. I said it was possible that the anxiety/akathisia got worse but wasn't sure. But I have had that symptom since November, when I tried to reinstate Effexor. The akathisia is not a new symptom. I just didn't have the right vocabulary to describe what I've been going through. 

 

I have started taking everything on a consistent basis, as you can see it my latest daily journals. I have alarms permanently set on my phone to help with that. And I haven't tried to add anything in months. 

[Catina7]

7 minutes ago, zeromg said:

I have started taking everything on a consistent basis, as you can see it my latest daily journals. I have alarms permanently set on my phone to help with that. And I haven't tried to add anything in months. 

 

Your being consistent and not adding anything else are definitely in your favor.  Our nervous systems crave stability.  Thinking of you...keep hanging tough!  ❤️

[zeromg]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:26 AM, Altostrata said:

@zeromg why are you taking hydroxyzine at about 4 a.m.? How do you feel before and after taking hydroxyzine?

 

How do you feel before and after taking each benzo dose?

 

We are trying to see what effect your current drug regimen has on your symptom pattern. Not everything is withdrawal. Adverse drug reactions are very common and may be relieved by making small changes. Are you interested in cooperating with this?

 I wake up early and start to feel the anxiety/akathisia coming on and take the hydroxyzine because I know within an hour or two the symptoms will become even worse. I do actually feel worse even after taking the hydroxyzine but not nearly as bad as if I don't take the hydroxyzine at all. I know this because the morning symptoms were much worse during the several weeks before I started taking the hydroxyzine in December. I also know because this has always been the pattern for me each time I've tried to stop the Effexor since 2015 (and I wasn't taking hydroxyzine during those times). 

 

As far as the benzos, I'm not sure I notice a difference at all after taking them. The main reason I take them at this point is to avoid withdrawal. 

 

How do I cooperate? My guess is by taking the lorazepam every 12 hours.

 

[zeromg]

1 hour ago, zeromg said:

We simply don't know of any drugs, supplements, etc. that will fix withdrawal. 

I do have to say the hydroxyzine helps. And even Alto used pregabalin and lamictal to help her withdrawal symptoms. 

[Shep]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:05 AM, zeromg said:

I think it would be very unwise for me to taper another drug and risk additional withdrawal while still in the state that I'm in now. 

 

Your best bet is going to be to hold then. 

 

16 hours ago, zeromg said:

I do have to say the hydroxyzine helps. And even Alto used pregabalin and lamictal to help her withdrawal symptoms. 

 

I'm not familiar with Alto's take on pregabalin but she wrote about her experience with lamictal and also made a caution note that lets people know they need to work with a doctor who knows what they're doing: 

 

On 5/24/2011 at 10:59 PM, Altostrata said:

CAUTION Lamotrigine may not be a universal treatment for withdrawal syndrome. If you want to try it, make sure you consult a doctor who is very familiar with using it and start with very small doses

 

I'm sure there are people who are able to use other drugs strategically to mitigate withdrawal, but this is far beyond what a volunteer run, peer support forum can assist you with. You may want to look into finding a doctor who knows about withdrawal:

 

MiA - Provider Directory

 

And here is SA's list:

 

Recommended doctors, therapists, and clinics

 

You came into the forum in 2016 with an antidepressant problem and then after a break from posting, you came back to the forum in 2022 with a benzo problem. That's not a strategic framework for getting off these drugs. If you prefer to go the drug route to get off these drugs, it's important to do so in a strategic way with a doctor who knows what they are doing. While you're holding, you may want to see if there's a doctor in your area or available on Skype to assist you. 

 

My fear for you is you're going to continue with what you're doing and burn out your nervous system from going from one set of problem drugs to the next. 

 

[zeromg]

5 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Your best bet is going to be to hold then. 

 

 

I'm not familiar with Alto's take on pregabalin but she wrote about her experience with lamictal and also made a caution note that lets people know they need to work with a doctor who knows what they're doing: 

 

 

I'm sure there are people who are able to use other drugs strategically to mitigate withdrawal, but this is far beyond what a volunteer run, peer support forum can assist you with. You may want to look into finding a doctor who knows about withdrawal:

 

MiA - Provider Directory

 

And here is SA's list:

 

Recommended doctors, therapists, and clinics

 

You came into the forum in 2016 with an antidepressant problem and then after a break from posting, you came back to the forum in 2022 with a benzo problem. That's not a strategic framework for getting off these drugs. If you prefer to go the drug route to get off these drugs, it's important to do so in a strategic way with a doctor who knows what they are doing. While you're holding, you may want to see if there's a doctor in your area or available on Skype to assist you. 

 

My fear for you is you're going to continue with what you're doing and burn out your nervous system from going from one set of problem drugs to the next. 

 

I don't want to take any more drugs and I have no plans to, even though my psychiatrist tries to push them on me (as well as ECT and TMS). She tries to manipulate me by saying the fact that I don't want to try these drugs or "therapies" means that I don't want to get better. 

 

Thank you for the doctor recommendations. When it comes time to taper the other drugs, I'm going to need a doctor who knows how to work with a compounding pharmacy. My psychiatrist has no idea how to taper people off psych drugs. She said a one month taper off risperidone is what she would recommend. 

 

Also, I have a question. I've been told by some other people that my withdrawal symptoms will not go away until I'm completely off of the risperidone, lorazepam, and hydroxyzine. Is this true? I've already made some progress in that the depression symptoms decreased dramatically. 

[Shep]

18 hours ago, zeromg said:

Also, I have a question. I've been told by some other people that my withdrawal symptoms will not go away until I'm completely off of the risperidone, lorazepam, and hydroxyzine. Is this true? I've already made some progress in that the depression symptoms decreased dramatically. 

 

Please see:

 

Are We There Yet? How Long Is Withdrawal Going To Take?

[Altostrata]

If you find every meeting with your psychiatrist is a struggle, why keep that doctor on your payroll?

 

19 hours ago, zeromg said:

I've been told by some other people that my withdrawal symptoms will not go away until I'm completely off of the risperidone, lorazepam, and hydroxyzine.

 

We have been asking you for your daily symptom notes so we can see if some of your symptoms might be from the ridiculous drug cocktail you're taking. If they are, you will contine to have those adverse drug effects as long as you're taking the drugs.

 

Your current problems may not be withdrawal syndrome at all. Do you recall this?

 

On 6/6/2023 at 12:26 PM, Altostrata said:

We are trying to see what effect your current drug regimen has on your symptom pattern. Not everything is withdrawal. Adverse drug reactions are very common and may be relieved by making small changes. Are you interested in cooperating with this?

 

You have not posted any daily notes since last Saturday. I conclude, therefore, that you are not interested in cooperating.

 

If you want to cure your "withdrawal" symptoms with more drugs, go right ahead. We provide peer support for going off drugs. I don't think we have anything further to discuss as long as you're committed to your current drug cocktail. Please let us know when you want to taper something.

[zeromg]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If you find every meeting with your psychiatrist is a struggle, why keep that doctor on your payroll?

I get seen at the VA and it is a long process to change doctors. I've already changed doctors twice and I'm in the process of trying to be assigned to another one but it will take time. 

[zeromg]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You have not posted any daily notes since last Saturday. I conclude, therefore, that you are not interested in cooperating.

You said that I'm experiencing inter-dose withdrawal and I was awaiting further instructions. I said that I was guessing you wanted me to take the lorazepam every twelve hours but I didn't want to make any assumptions and make a change that you didn't recommend. 

[zeromg]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If you want to cure your "withdrawal" symptoms with more drugs, go right ahead.

I have already said that I don't want to add more drugs. It's been a few months since I've tried to add anything. 

[Altostrata]

Need to see those daily notes, 24 hours at a time, daily!

[zeromg]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I don't think we have anything further to discuss as long as you're committed to your current drug cocktail. Please let us know when you want to taper something.

Shep said you weren't looking at tapering yet.

[Altostrata]

Not going to ask for daily notes again. If you want to proceed, post the notes.

[zeromg]

1 minute ago, Altostrata said:

Need to see those daily notes, 24 hours at a time, daily!

Okay. Do you want me to change the schedule that I take the drugs?