LarryS: tapering off venlafaxine / Effexor 225mg

[LarryS]

Six Week Hold: 10% Drop From 6.0 mg

Waited six weeks at 6.0 mg which is two weeks longer than normal for me. Waited longer this time because my fatigue and pain have been more pronounced than typical. Waited to give extra time to ensure that my tapering from Venlafaxine is not contributing to my symptom issues that I track. Dropping to 5.4 mg July 13, 2021. To do this drop, I am cutting from 16 beads to 14 beads, each bead valued at 0.375 .

 

My average symptom scores over the past six weeks are as follows:

 

Anhedonia = 4.0         Insomnia = 4.2            Fatigue = 6.7

Headache = 4.0           Back Pain = 6.0          Neck Pain = 5.2

 

A score of 10 is the worst case scenario that I can imagine.

I experienced a 9 for fatigue three times during the past six weeks.

I experienced a 10 once for insomnia during the past six weeks.

A score of 7 or above has been common for fatigue and pain symptoms.

 

I am enjoying the summer currently occurring here in the Pacific Northwest. I enjoy summer not only for the warmth, beauty and activities that are available, but also for the sunnier days. We have had a nice string of sunny days recently.

[LarryS]

Four Week Hold: 10% Drop From 5.4 mg

Waited four weeks at 5.4 mg because I am feeling better than the previous hold. Dropping to 4.9 mg August 10, 2021. To do this drop, I am cutting from 14 beads to 13 beads, each bead valued at 0.375 mg.

 

My average symptom scores over the past four weeks are as follows:

 

Anhedonia = 3.4         Insomnia = 2.8            Fatigue = 5.0

Headache = 4.0           Back Pain = 6.1          Neck Pain = 5.9

 

A score of 10 is the worst case scenario that I can imagine.

I experienced a 7 once for insomnia during the past four weeks.

I experienced a 7 for fatigue two times during the past four weeks.

I experienced a 7 or above for Back Pain 15 times during the past four weeks.  I got two corticosteroid shots in my low back July 29 which should lower the back pain for a while.  The two shots seem to have lowered my neck pain also for a little while.

 

I am enjoying the summer currently occurring here in the Pacific Northwest. I enjoy summer not only for the warmth, beauty and activities that are available, but also for the sunnier days. We have had a 52 day string of sunny days recently, which is unusual.  Summer uplifts my mood.

[LarryS]

Four Week Hold: 10% Drop From 4.9 mg
Dropping to 4.4 mg September 9, 2021. To do this drop, I am cutting from 13 beads to 12 beads, each bead valued at 0.375 mg. 

My average symptom scores over the past four weeks are as follows:

Anhedonia = 3.5    Insomnia = 2.6    Fatigue = 3.9
Headache = 3.2    Back Pain = 3.4    Neck Pain = 3.3

I got two corticosteroid shots in my low back July 29 which has lower my back pain for a while.  The two shots have lowered my neck pain also.  Less pain to deal with has improved my general health and symptom scores.

I go to the gym where my workout consists of physical therapy warm up, bicycle for 30 minutes and swim 20 laps in about 30 minutes.  On other days I walk about 2 miles.  Not too shabby for a 73 year old man.

I am enjoying the remaining summer here in the Pacific Northwest. Summer uplifts my mood.
 

[brassmonkey]

I'm very pleased that the bead counting method is working so well for you. the biggest problem with bead counting is that it is a linear reduction and at some point your decreases will become larger than the desired 10%. A quick calculation shows that you have two more reductions before you reach that point. We don't recommend reducing by more that 10%, especially at the lower doses.

 

If you desire to keep going with this method might I recommend that you try a combination of beads and liquid. This will provide for more accurate dosing so you don't exceed the recommended 10%. It would require a 1mL syringe. Your would take all but one bead in the form of beads then dissolve the last bead in 1mL of water in the syringe. Adjust the volume to get the required amount to make up the new dose and then take the liquid.

[92sharks]

Holy smokes! I am also tapering EffexorXR (started at 188mg 1/1/18). I am down to 10 beads. Just recently had a months long terrible wave that I didn't even realize it was wd. Not until I had "physical" symptoms of vertigo and head fullness did I recognize that I had been having other wd symptoms that I had been ignoring. I'm so tickled to find a few other Effexor "taperers"! Larry, you might want to slow way the heck down. You certainly sound like you have wd symptoms, and I can't imagine they are going to go away if you keep dropping beads.  For the past year I had been steadily dropping 1 bead a week and since I didn't feel any physical symptoms I just kept going. But there were a lot of symptoms (depression, crying, unable to make decisions, ANHEDONIA!!!, lethargy, zero energy, etc). I just thought it was me: my normal. I finally have had 2 days in a row where I feel good, have hope, feel anything like pleasure, and looking to the future. I think at any age you can feel these things. Feel joy. You don't seem like you feel any joy. And THAT is WD! I would suggest staying where you are until you feel a lot better. You do not sound like you feel good. I had on my calendar that I would be off in October 2021. 10 beads, no whoop! Now I'm hoping to be off in October 2022. My earlier "holy smokes" is thinking that I may to have to mess around with lowering the dose in smaller increments than 1 bead at a time. The goal is to feel good, Larry, not hurry and be off of Effexor. Sending support and understanding. ❤️

[LarryS]

92sharks, thanks for your input.

What is the average mg per bead you are tapering with?

[92sharks]

@LarrySHi Larry, I've no idea! I've mostly thought of them as 1mg/bead. When removing balls from 150mg caps, 75mg, and 37.5mg caps there have been roughly that number of beads per capsule, respectively. But I truly don't have a clue. I've been surprised to read on SA that some people's capsules have 200+beads. The generic brand of Effexor XR (Venlafaxine) I currently have is TEVA. I learned from your posts that you think/know each bead is 0.375mg. I think we are probably using the same type of capsules/Effexor XR. I am on a 12 week hold of 10 beads. I continued to taper with emotional wd symptoms for months. It wasn't until I had the familiar wd vertigo when I dropped from 11mg to 10mg (along with a missed dose 🙄) that I realized I'd been in a wave for a LONG time. I thought it was just some personal family issues and my inability to cope successfully with them. I think it was some of both (personal issues and tapering), but what I realized reading on SA that it was my CNS that was struggling, whether from the family issues or the tapering. There were not two separate entities affecting separate areas of myself. The same CNS was being disrupted, trying to cope, trying to heal,  and was suffering terribly. With the last drop, the vertigo lasted 8 days. The wave has lasted for months, but the worst of it lasted for about 8 weeks after the vertigo stopped. I am just this week hitting several days in a row where I feel so much better. It is so uplifting. I do believe I am in a window!! My current plan is to stay on this hold until Nov 1 and then consider dropping to 9 beads if I've continued to feel good. I think I will hold at 9 beads for another 3 months. That is my current thought. However, we all know this could change tomorrow! 😂 The fun mystery of tapering!! Btw, I'm 65, so there is lots to think about. I know you are in your 70's, yes? And I read you believe your wife is struggling with some dementia. Life really is so difficult and can be so cruel. I just want you to know I did not have any hope or desire or joy or interest for soooo long. And the last few days, I do. I have some of ALL of those things. And it feels so amazing. So, it confirms to me that a lot this **** I feel and think and suffer through will go away; that much of it is wd. Sending you much support and caring, Larry. Wishing for you to feel some good feelings. Please let me know how you are doing.  

[92sharks]

@LarrySI glanced back at my post on September 10. I remember feeling good when I wrote. However, it didn't last and I had some terrible days after that. My point is I think it is very important to make sure it isn't just a day or two of feeling good. Wait to taper until there is a string of days or weeks to think of tapering again. Just my plan, though. ❤️

[LarryS]

Hello brassmonkey, thank you for your advice.  I have read much of your writings and believe you have the gift of being able to thoughtfully express yourself well.  You have set a great example to follow.  Because of my respect for you, it has taken me a long time to decide how to respond to you.  I was aware that I was getting close to the point where my dose cut would become larger than the 10% recommendation due to the 0.375 mg beads I am using.  I asked if there where other people who successfully tapered all the way off with beads and a moderator pointed me to moderator mammaP. After reading mammaP’s experience with using beads I was encouraged. 

I used the Gab Taper.xlsx spreadsheet (below) to do an additional calculation using my 0.375 mg beads.  To the left of cycle column, I created a formula to calculate the number of beads needed to provide very close to the recommended dose.  Then in the “Beads Used” column to the left I rounded to the nearest whole bead.  This provided a plan for using beads to accomplish the taper down to 0.37 mg, at which point after holding I would jump to zero.

Since there are two primary factors regarding a slow taper, percent of decrease in dose and time for healing in the brain, perhaps by extending the time for healing I could mitigate the increasing percentage of dose drop.  After all, the dose drops of 0.375 mg per bead are very small.

Currently I am at 4.4 mg of venlafaxine and taking 12 beads.  Per my calculation I will be able to continue dropping one bead at a time down to 7 beads giving approximately 2.6 mg.  Continuing the taper beyond 7 shows that waiting longer between drops could be the key to making it all the way to my proposed drop off point of 0.4 mg.  For example, at 6 beads I would wait at least two cycles lengths before considering my next drop.  My normal cycle length has been four weeks, so I would wait eight weeks before deciding to drop.  Being vigilant regarding any unusual symptoms will guide me through this process.

If anyone is aware of someone on SurvingAntidepresants.org who has tried a similar plan, I would appreciate reading about their experience, positive or negative.

 

[92sharks]

@LarrySI want to suggest that you highlight "Brassmonkey" if you want to get a response. If you start your post by typing @,then no space, followed by brassmonkey you should see a list pop up with "brassmonkey". Click on the name in the box and it will highlight the name. This way he will be notified you have responded or have a comment or question. This will work for anyone you want to respond to. I think otherwise it will be hit or miss if they see your post. 🙂

[92sharks]

@LarrySI found your table and your plan for tapering very interesting and of course, very personal to me since we are so close in dosage. I read your table carefully and thoughtfully. I wish you all the luck with this and I presume we will be following one another or at least I will be following you. Because I had such a tough time with the last drop I did, as I mentioned earlier, my current plan is to drop 1 bead and hold for 3 months. In reading your table, I worry that you will still be going too fast over the next 5 months and worsening wd symptoms are going to catch up with you. However, it could just as easily all go fine. Our bodies and our wd symptoms will let us know how we're doing. You mentioned in several posts ago all that you do for exercise. This is amazing! Just remember to go easy. Last nosy thing.... Have you thought of trying acupuncture? I know you've had some back issues. I have been going to acupuncture every two weeks for almost 2 months and I do believe it is helping. The acupuncturist is helping me with psychological and emotional symptoms, i.e. I'm not going because of physical injury or a chronic physical condition. I believe acupuncture/Chinese medicine can be so beneficial. Best to you! 

[H8FXR]

@brassmonkeyHey BrassMonkey; Hey Larry: congrats on your progress so far. Looks like you are in the end game which is exciting! Your plan looks good and I really hope it can work. Glad there's the liquid option too. I'm writing primarily for clarification from BrassMonkey on this.

 

BrassMonkey, is there a link to a page on how to make liquid from Effexor XR beads?

 

You were saying that you can dissolve them in a 1 ml syringe. As far as I know the XR beads can be used but need to be ground to a powder in a mortar and pestle and then suspended in a solution of OraPlus, OraSweet, or simple syrup. Then it is taken twice - four times a day because it's no longer XR. Does this sound right? Can you shed some more light one this, please and thank you. 

 

All the best Larry!

 

Regards,

H8

 

[18 years Effexor @ 75mg-150mg. Tapering 75mg: 3/8/21 -> 67.5mg; 3/22/21 -> 56.7mg ; 5/12/21 -> 48.6mg; 6/8/21 -> 42.3mg; 7/1/22 -> 37.5mg; 7/15/21 -> 33.5mg; 8/21/21 -> 27.5mg; 10/3/21 -> 28.1mg; supplements: fish oil/magnesium/probiotic]

 

 

 

 

 

[LarryS]

@92sharks Thank you for your interest and comments.  We are both in the end game taper mode for sure.  We can encourage one another in this process.

Thanks for explaining the use of the @ sign to obtain highlighted name handles.

I will explain how I know how many milligrams are in my beads. This works if you have very consistent bead size, which I have been blessed to have.  I learned this elsewhere on this web site.  I have taken at least 10 capsules and counted the beads in each capsule.  Then I have calculated the average number of beads per capsule. I have 75 mg capsules.  Then divide the stated capsule milligrams by the average number of beads to get mg/bead.

Wishing you the best in your taper.

[brassmonkey]

This is our thread on tapering Effexor: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/272-tips-for-tapering-off-effexor-and-effexor-xr-venlafaxine/

 

Down in the middle of the first post there is some information on making a liquid suspension from the beads.

 

The method I was talking about is for getting a smaller dose out if one bead. By dissolving one bead in 1mL of water in a syringe  you get a suspension that you can easily take a small part of. For making suspensions that you would take a larger dose from then you would need to use a suspension media, like you mentioned. 

 

Yes, crushing or dissolving the beads turns them into immediate release instead of XR.

[LarryS]

Five Week Hold: 10% Drop From 4.4 mg

Dropping to 4.0 mg October 14, 2021. To do this drop, I am cutting from 12 beads to 11 beads, each bead valued at 0.375 mg.

 

The question gets asked on this forum, how do you know when it is OK to drop down 10% to the next lower dose.  As described elsewhere on this web site, it is about determining how stable you feel.  Do I have any unusual symptoms?  Are the symptoms I track in a reasonable range?

 

The symptoms I track that seem to relate to quite a few people tapering from psychotic drugs on this forum are anhedonia, insomnia, fatigue and head-pressure.  The other two items I track, back pain and neck pain are not related to tapering venlafaxine but may play a part in how I rate the items that do relate.

 

For each item I track, I have written a short statement in my tracking book regarding what each number 1 through 10 means to me.  This has helped me be consistent in tracking.  However, there is still a subjective element to choosing the rating.

 

Rather than just give the average number to you this time, I will also provide my statement of what it means to me.

 

Anhedonia      3.77     Some caring and pleasure about my health, being loving and respectful of others.

 

Insomnia         2.91     Slept minimum 6 hours with one interruption

 

Fatigue                        4.20     Mild fatigue all day.

 

Head-pressure 3.05     Very light head pressure

 

Back Pain        3.45     Low to less than mid-level pain

 

Neck Pain       3.25     Low to less than mid-level pain

 

Even though my fatigue has ramped up a bit from previous hold, it is something that I have dealt with since my mid-thirties.  I believe that I am stable and can proceed with my taper.

[92sharks]

@LarrySHi Larry! I know you want to keep on schedule and that you feel your symptoms are manageable.  I will only say it once because I can't feel how you feel and I know I'm running a risk of you telling me to myob. No one knows what this drop will do until you do it. I would wait another month to see if your symptoms improve and give yourself more time, but that is my opinion. Holding a few more weeks is one thing we know won't be harmful. You don't owe me any explanation or justification. Absolutely, I wish you the best with this drop! (I'm not suggesting that you hold so I can beat you to dropping off! 😂😂)

[LarryS]

@92sharks Thank you for your concern.  I am now three weeks into my previous dose drop and it is going well.  

I did not respond to you right away because I could not figure out upon what basis you where giving me advise to slow down.  Later, I came to realize that you experienced seven days of vertigo due to a drop in August and that you have been holding since.  It was your personal bad experience that heighted your desire to warn me and others.  Best wishes to you for a good stabilization hold and to feeling better.

[LarryS]

Four Week Hold: 10% Drop From 4.0 mg

Dropping to 3.5 mg November 11, 2021. To do this drop, I am cutting from 11 beads to 10 beads, each bead valued at 0.375 mg.

 

Anhedonia      3.86     Some caring and pleasure about my health, being loving and respectful of others.

 

Insomnia         2.82     Slept minimum 6 hours with one interruption

 

Fatigue            5.07     Moderate fatigue all day.

 

Head-pressure 4.46     Very light head pressure

 

Back Pain        5.86     Uncomfortable pain

 

Neck Pain       5.32     Mid-level pain

 

Even though my fatigue has ramped up a bit from previous hold, it is something that I have dealt with since my mid-thirties and could be related to my pain.  My back pain and neck pain have significantly increased but is not directly related to tapering.  I believe that I am stable and can proceed with my taper.

[LarryS]

SETBACK IN MY JOURNEY

I have decided to up dose my Venlafaxine; December 6, 2021, from 3.5 mg to 7.3 mg due to recent central nervous system issues.  I have for some time been having to push myself to keep up with the daily demands of my life. 

Insomnia, fatigue, and pain have all gotten worse over the last month.

On December 1, I experience a “Panic Attack” for the first time in my life.  I was laying on my back on the floor icing my back and neck when the attack occurred.  It only lasted for one to three minutes.

I was able to see my primary care doctor two days latter and he gave me ten very low dose 2 mg tabs of Valium (Diazepam).  I know that this is an addictive drug in the benzodiazepine category.  The doctor said he was only giving me a very low dose and only ten pills, so I should not get addicted to them.  The doctor said he wanted to make them available to me in case I have another panic attack.  So, I accepted them.

I do not know if my current symptoms will continue or subside gradually.  I want you to know I am seriously considering going on a full dose, say 75 mg, venlafaxine to see if it will stabilize me.  I currently have an appointment with my general practitioner on December 22 to discuss my situation.  I would be interested in advice from others on Surviving Antidepressants prior to my doctor’s visit when I will be making some decisions.

Below is further information on what has occurred to put me into this current poor health state, should you want more information.

About a month and a half ago daily pain in my hips started ramping up.  I needed to back-off of my two mile walks around my neighborhood, which provide refreshing air outside my home and a short reprieve from duties around the home.  I did not want to stop my walks, but I was concerned about the pain increasing.  It was also too soon to get my next round of corticosteroid injections into my lower back to ease the pain.  Stopping my walks was a downer for me.

I finally did get two injections into the spinal nerves on the left side of my spine November 8, 2021.  I have not previously noted any side effects from these injections.

Three days after the first injections, a couple of experiences caused me more stress than they should have.  I became aware of my stress tension.  The panic attack occurred the morning of December 1.  I called the nurse help line who calmly explained what they thought was happening and set me up with an appointment with my general practice doctor.  Just this act calmed me down enough to get through the day, knowing that I was getting some help.

On December 2, I went to the doctor for two more injections into the right side of my spinal nerves.  On that day, I told the doctor giving the injections that I had been experiencing some of the symptoms listed in their “Post-Procedure Instructions.”  The symptoms listed which I am experiencing are “flushing or redness of the face and chest,” “increased heart rate,” “restlessness,” “insomnia,” “anxiety,” upset stomach.”  I indicated I was feeling the need to proceed with injections, due to my pain level, if the doctor had no objections, so the doctor proceeded.

At this time, I am not sure how much the corticosteroid injection side effects have contributed to my feelings of stress tension in relationship to my own mental perceptions of the stressing events which contributed to my having a panic attack.  I need to do research to find some answers.  Counseling is an option that I need to seriously consider.  Dear reader, you may have thoughts and suggestions to share.

[LarryS]

UPDATE ON OVERCOMING ANXIETY

 

My previous “panic attack” on December 1, 2021, served as a wakeup call to me in more than one way.  I will share what has transpired since my previous post of December 9.  My anxiety and nerves eventually subsided and went away by December 14.

 

@92sharks saw what I could not see coming.  The warning to slow down was given.  I took this as directed specifically toward taking longer to wait during each drop in venlafaxine.  In general, I needed to slow down and pause.  I have taken on a lot of responsibilities that my wife, who is in the beginning stages of vascular dementia, can no longer do.  I was being overwhelmed with feelings of responsibility and trying to keep up with everything.  I thought I was taking care of my personal needs ok, but now it is apparent that this was not the case.  The perfect storm hit, and I was blown away.

 

First, I will state that I intend to hold at 7.3 mg of venlafaxine for longer than my normal hold of four weeks to give myself time to sort things out.  I went back in my notes to see how I was feeling previously at 7.3 mg.  I was stable even when suffering some intense back pain, among other daily life issues.

 

In talking with others, I have learned that “panic attacks” are quite common among humans.  Even my doctor and his nurse told me they have experienced panic attacks.  So, I am in good company.

 

I tend to think that my anxiety came from stressed thoughts rather than as a side affect of corticosteroid shots since I have not experienced side effects previously.  I can say that the corticosteroid shots where not providing me the relief as effectively as in past treatments.  I was experiencing a high level of pain and insomnia for over two weeks past the final injections.  I had thoughts that the injections might not provide me the relief from pain for which I was hoping.  However, my pain has subsided now, and I am able to function much better.  The shots just needed longer to work.  And I needed to calm down.

 

On Sunday December 5, I shared what I was experiencing with leaders of a small group Bible study I attend.  They provided me with three things I should consider looking into, to help me get through my anxiety.  They recommended counseling, a care giver support group at church, and attending the senior group at the church.  I already attend a once per month care giver support group, online, moderated by a staff person of the local senior center.

 

In the interim time I practiced doing things that the nurse had suggested I do to decrease stress.  Things that provided some relief where:  slow deep breathing, continuing my daily bible reading, prayer, distraction by keeping myself focused and busy on tasks, listening to music, warm bath, exercise, walking outside and self-talk to debunk stress thoughts.

 

I did not sleep much Sunday night and woke up early Monday morning.  I was feeling anxious all night.  The spirit of God revealed to me that I am to have mercy on others as God shows me mercy.

 

It was on Monday morning that I decided to up dose to 7.3 mg.  This was one of my most difficult and anxious days.

 

A massage on Monday afternoon provided very good short term relief and some good advice from the therapist.  The therapist suggested that I identify my triggers that get me into feelings of stress.

 

On Monday December 13, I left messages with a counseling service and with a social worker at my wife’s geriatric clinic. 

 

On Tuesday I wrote a note to myself which says, “I stress myself when in a hurry.”  That day I set up an appointment with a counselor at a local church for January 3, 2022.  I also got a call back from the geriatric social worker and got a lot of helpful ideas regarding care giving.  The social worker also sent me a packet of information about care giving resources.  I signed up for a recommended course called “Powerful Tools for Caregivers.”  The six week online course will begin February 10.  It will be an online meeting that all participants and leaders can communicate back and forth with one another.  I felt good about the actions that I was taking and had “A Very Good Day.”

 

I have not had any anxiety or nervous feelings since.  I have stopped worrying and am exercising more patience.  I am feeling like I’m going to be getting some good advice and help.  I just need to be patient.  Even my back and neck pain started to subside.

 

I have also had some good contacts with friends and family.  I have been letting people know about what I have been going through.  I am asking for help.  I am reaching out.  I am in God’s hands, what have I to be fearful of?

The very next day, I wrote early in my journal; “work on staying calm.”  Wouldn’t you know it, several things happened beyond my control, and I had to work on staying calm.  I got through it and avoided anxiety quite well.

Again, on Friday December 17, my one and only computer crashed (it seemed).  I took it to the computer repair shop.  This could have caused me to be upset, but I wrote, “Be anxious for nothing,” a tip from the Bible.  It turned out that the computer was fine, and I was able to get it back in a short two days.  It worked out, and better than initial feelings.

 

Sometimes we must re-learn what we should have already known.  This will make me stronger in my beliefs and actions.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by ChessieCat
added spacing

[LarryS]

Dear moderator:

I recently made the decision to up-dose.  I went up from 3.5 mg to 7.3 mg venlafaxine on December 6, 2021.  I was at the peak of feeling anxious and not knowing what to do.  I had the first “panic attack” that I had ever experienced in my life. 

The anxiousness has now passed, and I am feeling very well.  I have a clear head and a calm spirit.  No anxious thoughts since December 14.

I was not sure my tapering venlafaxine had anything to do with my anxiety, but I figured an up-dose would not hurt anything and potentially could help.

But now I am regretting the up-dose because I am surer now that tapering had nothing to do with my former panic attack and anxiety.

I should have conferred with a moderator before doing the up-dose.  My mistake.

Question:  I have been at the higher dose for 26 days.  I would like to drop back down as close to the former 3.5 mg dose as reasonably possible.  What is your recommendation.

[92sharks]

@LarrySLarry, I see in the past BrassMonkey has responded to you, but with his health issues at the moment, Idk how much he is on SA. I also see Altostrata has responded to you a while back. I think you need to ask a specific moderator for help by highlighting with the @ in order to receive a faster response. 🙂

[ChessieCat]

I have notified the other mods that you need assistance.

[92sharks]

@LarrySWonderful that @ChessieCatsaw your post! 

[LarryS]

Dear Moderator and @brassmonkey

No moderator has commented on my proposed tapering plan with beads, posted above October 10, 2021.  The plan was developed in the Gab Taper.xlsx spreadsheet provided by this website.  When the bead value of 0.375 mg became greater than the recommended 10% drop, then a longer hold than the normal four weeks would be employed.  I believe this concept has been described in the Forum: "Tips for tapering off Effexor ..." 

I have copied a portion of that text below.  I am referring to the second paragraph below:

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Reduce by micro-taper
The very smallest dose of Effexor XR is one bead. Some people find they can better tolerate a reduction of one bead at a time rather than a 10% decrease. You may be able to make reductions of one bead more frequently; try reducing by one bead a week for a while to see what your tolerance is. See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2878-micro-taper-instead-of-10-or-5-decreases/

 

But -- when people get down to a small number of beads, they sometimes find one bead is too great a reduction. In that situation, longer holds are necessary, or switching to regular Effexor in liquid form for more gradual titration.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I would like to know if anyone else has been successful using a similar method with consistent small beads averaging only 0.375 milligram active ingredient.

I am aware of Mommap who was able to get off her antidepressant.  She had to deal with 3 different size beads to get through her process.  I also read that if she had it to do over, she would have chosen a different method to taper.

I am aware of @scallywag who apparently was successful in tapering Cymbalta with 0.1 mg beads to zero.

I want to follow in the footsteps of someone who has succeeded in a very similar process to what I am proposing.  I do not want to try a process that has very little chance of working.  If the "handles" of those individuals who have tried a similar process (preferably with venlafaxine) could be named, I would love to read about their experience prior to attempting the process myself.

I have been doing queries myself to try and do my own research.  I'm learning a lot, but not finding what I'm looking for, so far.

@brassmonkey has recommended that I will need to utilize a water mixture of my venlafaxine in order to more closely approximate a 10% drop.  I know that he has been successful in dropping to zero.

I am willing to take his recommendation, if bead counting with venlafaxine has been determined to be poor way of reducing to zero at the end of the taper process.

I don't want to just try, and then fail.  I want to succeed the first time.  Sure, there may be a few trials along the way, but the idea is to get to the end, and get off this toxic drug. 

[Kiasofia]

On 1/2/2022 at 5:09 AM, LarryS said:

Question:  I have been at the higher dose for 26 days.  I would like to drop back down as close to the former 3.5 mg dose as reasonably possible.  What is your recommendation.

Hi @LarryS I'm not knowledgeable about Effexor and tapering beads, but can give my input to the above question: Doing an updose is destabilizing in itself, so I would not follow it with a fast taper down to the dose that was updosed from. Instead, I'd do a slow taper following the recommendations of no more than 10% of current dose at a time.

 

[LarryS]

@Kiasofia  Thanks for your response.  I will follow your instruction. 

I surmised what the answer would be, but wanted to hear it from a moderator.

[LarryS]

ChessieCat said the following, and I felt like capturing the thought on my blog for a reminder.

 

"I posted in a member's topic yesterday about how we get impatient during a taper.  I think that part of it is that we start to feel as if we don't need the drug anymore, when in fact it is the brain that still needs the drug.  This is something that I know and understand, but I think sometimes we need to re-word something so that it reinforces it."

[QueenElisabeth]

HI Larry,
 I have been following your story, and am currently on approx. 17 mg of Venlafaxine, with beads similar to yours it seems. I have 64 beads left. In June/July 2020 I crashed in my taper, at 10 mg and up-dosed myself twice to find stability again. It is true that up-dosing is an act that might cause destabilization, however, when the discomfort of the last taper(s) exceeds the ability to bear it, I think it is a possibility that should be considered. My first up-dose was way to big, done in despair, but still not big enough to keep me on the safe side of life, to 15 mg. The second up-dose was done 2 weeks later, to 17 mg, only adding 6 bead in total. BTW, I also split the dose into two doses, in order to make sure I wouldn't suffer from inter-dose withdrawal.  I didn't up-dose more, cause I could bear the pain that was left, but nothing close to functional or normal. I tried to reduce 1 bead in November 2020, which caused a small wave of depression and unrest the rest of the month.

I decided then, I would recover more first and learn to train my emotions and a high vibration, before doing any reduction. I had lots of waves, with small periods of windows till May 2021. Then I really started to feel a little better. But I still didn't feel it was time to taper again.

I reduced 1 bead this November 2021. The first 2 weeks intermittent every other day, and the following 2 weeks completely reduced from 65 to 64 beads.  I experienced the following symptoms from only reducing 1 bead: 

First week: unrest, heart palpetations

Second week: unrest, heart palps, unstable in my emotions and feeling really sad, menstrual period 3 days late, recovering from sports took 5 days after a normal intensive workout ( the pain was intense... very strange experience)

Third week: Crying, and same as second week... thought I was grieving, but realized later it was withdrawal. Made a very clear decision I would practice daily meditation and feeling good emotions, smiling to give positive signals to my brain.

Fourth week: More calm, working hard on consciously exercising feeling joy, peace, love and grateful. It's working, I feel confident and peaceful.

I haven't tapered again, as I am still working towards reducing the response of my body to the taper of only 1 bead.

A few years back I have become a Taper Coach, after withdrawing a benzodiazepine, and I use EFT to reduce lot's of symptoms and suffering. I am getting certified in a new Method called MAP right now. It's working with and in the subconcious of people and I am very hopeful it can really help in withdrawal and hopefully even reduce the amount of withdrawal one can experience.
I feel hopeful and will continue my journey.

Larry, I hope my story is helpful to you and if you ever need someone to talk to or need help with your symptoms, just write to me.

 

warmly, Liz

 

[LarryS]

MY PURPOSE FOR CONTINUED TAPERING
One must have a sense of purpose for doing whatever we do in life.  We spend time doing whatever because we feel there is a purpose and a fulfillment in doing it.  Life is too short to waste time.  Going on vacation is not wasting time.  Enjoying life by doing enjoyable activities is not wasting time.  Enjoying our existence is what we all want.  So why should I choose to continue spending time tapering the drug venlafaxine?  Are there adequate reasons to get off a psychotic drug?

Due to a recent “WAKE UP” call, I now better realize that I am at a pivotal point in the tapering process.  One must be willing to make changes in the techniques and methods used to do the taper, otherwise failure is assured.  If one counts beads, as I do, at some point the milligrams of drug will become greater than the recommended 10% reduction.  One must be willing to take the counsel of those who have already paid the price of learning to successfully taper off psychotic drugs.

I want to thank the administrator and moderators who have contributed their knowledge to me up to this point in my tapering experience.  Thank You: @Altostrata, @ChessieCat, @Petunia, @Gridley, @Carmie, @Dejavu, @brassmonkey and @Kiasofia.

First and Foremost:  I have always believed that taking psychotic drugs should be a short-term help and not a long-term proposition.  In the past, I have spent time counseling with a psychologist to help me get through anything that would hinder me from the goal of tapering former psychotic drugs.  I was on the drug venlafaxine for five years, 225 mg full strength, prior to beginning my tapering.  This was the longest period that I had ever been on a psychotic drug.  Explaining why I remained on the drug for so long, will have to be addressed in a separate topic.  I presume that other people on this forum feel the same way that I do.  Thankfully, I found SurvivingAntidepressants.org.  

Second:  I have always felt very enthusiastic about pleasurable physical activities.  I have been focused on various athletic activities, in my former more youthful days.  My doctor has even told me that I was one of his healthiest patients that he has ever worked with.  However, in my mid-thirties, I did recognize that I had fatigue issues.  I consulted with a sleep doctor who analyzed me and said that I had a mild case of “sleep apnea.” I tried various techniques recommended by the doctor over the following year.  I eventually settled on treatment using CPAP machine.  This type of treatment provides positive air pressure to my lungs so that I do not have sleep apnea events during the night.  Unfortunately, as I have aged, I have found that this treatment does not prevent me from waking up in the middle of the night.  Therefore, I do have fatigue issues.  When I am fatigued, I can feel down.  My medical record labels me as having “neurotic depression.” I will admit that I did have one incident in my life when I would accept the label of neurotic depression as being appropriate.  However, I do not believe this should define my entire being.  Unfortunately, when you get a medical label, it sticks around a long time.

Third:  I have learned that these types of drugs over an extended period of time do poop out.  If you go to see a doctor the solution is simply to give you a higher dose of drugs.  In the end this does not work.  I can't say that I have gotten to the poop out stage, but I certainly don't want to ever get there. 

Fourth: Since researching venlafaxine and other psychotic drugs I have found that these drugs are labeled as toxic.  It doesn't make any sense why I would want to put a toxic drug in my system.  I do know that various drugs have maximum doses due to the potential for causing a toxic reaction.  How can I be sure that researchers really know where that level is?
Below is a link to reference regarding toxicity of venlafaxine:

Venlafaxine | C17H27NO2 - PubChem (nih.gov)

 

Fifth: I have previously told the story of the Psychiatrist whom I was assigned to in 2014, after a one-week experience in a hospital psychiatric ward.  When I told him I wanted to get off Venlafaxine he told me that only 20% of people who try to get off psychotic drugs succeed.  I told him, “I’m in the 20%.”  I believed this because I had successfully weaned off other psychotic drugs.  I still believe I am in the 20% who will succeed.  I do not say this to brag or boast.  I say it because I have the faith and courage to do what I have set out to do.  I’m getting closer to age 74 now.  My body has been doing the normal age-related deterioration over the past few years.  But my mind is still intact, even though it is also feeling the effects of age.  I have what feels like more responsibility than I have ever had previously in my life, and I have had quite a bit of responsibility in my past.  But I still want to achieve this goal.  I have been faithfully working on this goal for 3 years 6 months.  It generally takes 5 plus years to accomplish.  I have just prolonged the time by a recent up-dose.  You must really want to succeed in order to achieve this goal.  You must be a long-term thinker.  You must visualize what it will be like when you achieve it.  You must have faith that you will achieve it.
With regard to “faith”, I have faith in a God who loves me and wants the best for me.  I need to remember that when I am healed, that I need to give thanks and the glory to the God who heals me.  Most recently, December 14, 2021, I was healed, from anxiety and the jittery feelings that came along with that.  I want to give God the glory for that healing.
Sixth:  I do not want to be numbed to life for the rest of my life.  I want to experience the feelings of life in full measure.  Those on this forum who have succeeded in getting off their drug have eloquently described what that feels like.  (Reader, do you remember?)  It is exceptionally good to feel life as it was meant to be, that, I am sure of.
I resolve to be patient in this tapering journey, no matter how long it takes.  
I resolve to follow the successful leaders and duplicate what they have successfully done.
I resolve to be “hung by my tong” and state that I am in the 20% who will succeed in getting completely off venlafaxine.
I resolve to continue learning as much as I can from the excellent resource Surviving Antidepressants.org.
I know that life will continue to throw stressors at me.  I know that I will have to be vigilant in dealing with life stressors in a manner that will lessen the chance of them overwhelming me.  I just went through a period of stress; anxiety and a first time ever panic attack.  I am now back in counseling to try and figure out how this happened and how to overcome in the future.  Not a time to give up and admit defeat.  Another growth opportunity.  I am thankful for growth opportunities.
I not only post this as a reminder to myself and a resolution, but I also know that this will help others on this web site.
 

[LarryS]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:47 AM, QueenElisabeth said:

It is true that up-dosing is an act that might cause destabilization,

@QueenElisabeth I have not come across information that says up-dose may be destabilizing.  Can you give me link to where you found this information? 

 

On 1/10/2022 at 5:47 AM, QueenElisabeth said:

I decided then, I would recover more first and learn to train my emotions and a high vibration, before doing any reduction.

Training ourselves on how to appropriately deal with our emotions is definitely what I also need to work on.  I'm curious, what does 'high vibration' mean to you?  I am not familiar with the terminology. 

 

If you know the approximate value in milligrams per 1 bead, I would be interested in knowing.  

 

On 1/10/2022 at 5:47 AM, QueenElisabeth said:

A few years back I have become a Taper Coach, after withdrawing a benzodiazepine, and I use EFT to reduce lots of symptoms and suffering. I am getting certified in a new Method called MAP right now. It's working with and in the subconscious of people and I am very hopeful it can really help in withdrawal and hopefully even reduce the amount of withdrawal one can experience.

It is wonderful that you are applying your knowledge as a "Taper Coach".  Thank you for sharing your story and experience with me.  I do appreciate this.  What does EFT and MAP stand for?

 

It is good to hear that you worked through your 1 bead taper experience and now experience a more peaceful and calm life.

Thanks for offering your support.

LarryS

 

[LarryS]

On 1/7/2022 at 10:20 AM, Kiasofia said:

Doing an updose is destabilizing in itself,

@Kiasofia  Would you mind providing a link to more information about 'up-dose is destabilizing'?  

Thanks

LarryS

[Kiasofia]

Making changes is destabilizing. I don't know of a specific link link about updosing, but there are these about stability:

Keep it simple, slow and stable

Stability

[LarryS]

I have been using Aurobindo Pharma USA, Inc. venlafaxine.  It is made in India and distributed in the USA.  Their address is 279 Princeton-Hightstown Road, East Windsor, NJ 08520.  The pharmacy I received the drug from gave it to me in Aurobindo's original bottle of 90 capsule type pills, rated at 75 mg of venlafaxine each.  Each capsule contains an average of 200 very small beads, each calculated by me to average 0.375 mg active ingredient.  The original bottle has an expiration date of July 2022.  The pharmacy's attached to the bottle information states Date Filled 11/18/2019 and Discard By 11/17/2020.   Today's date is January 14, 2022.

 

I have now been using these gelatin capsule pills for two years one month.  I have stored them appropriately at the recommended temperature in a kitchen cabinet away from heat, light and moisture.  I have not been concerned about the expiration date up to this point, and I don't think I should get too concerned now.

 

Over the years I have seen the pharmacy change manufactures of the drugs my wife and I take.  They change probably due to finding the lowest cost and availability of the drugs thy dispense.  I have not wanted to potentially switch to a different manufacture.  I am working well with what I have.

 

On November 17, 2017 @brassmonkey was facing a similar situation.  He was using tabs, not capsules.  The following quote by brassmonkey was copied from the following location:

topic/405-tips-for-tapering-off-paxil-paroxetine/page/2/.....

 

"As you get lower in dose it will take longer and longer to use up a bottle.  I tapered for three and a half years on one bottle of tablets and still had some left over.  It will really help to store it in the refrigerator, and I like the idea of getting several smaller bottles from the pharmacist.  Keep those in the fridge too until you need them.  Don't Freeze them, it sounds like a good idea, but is really bad for the medication."

 

I will be using beads for a long while, even when I make some liquid to make up a portion of my dose.  

 

I found the following interesting perspective on the expiration of drugs.  The link is also elsewhere on Surviving Antidepressants .org.

Drug Expiration Dates - Are Expired Drugs Still Safe to Take?

 

 

 

[LarryS]

@Kiasofia        

This post was due to a mistake in my typing.  Would like it deleted, but don't see a way to do that.

[LarryS]

@Kiasofia I read both articles that you gave me above.  Appreciate the wisdom of both.  Thank You.