Rozon1: Effexor withdrawals

[Happy2Heal]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:03 PM, Gridley said:

Reinstatement of a very small dose of the original drug is the only known way to help alleviate withdrawal syndrome

ok sorry these quotes ended up in different messages

 

 

I don't seem to be aware of the fact that you're asking the same questions many  times, that have already been answered

 

it's ok, there's a lot of info on this site and it's hard to take it all in, but maybe these specific quotes will help you

 

 

[Rozon1]

I know but the fact that I might go back on and it and what if it causes me worsening symptoms that I’ll have to battle? 

[Happy2Heal]

On 2/9/2020 at 6:58 PM, Altostrata said:

If you give reinstatement a good trial and don't like the way it feels, stop.

 

[Happy2Heal]

the way I see it Rozen1 is that you basically have 2 choices:

 

reinstate a tiny bit and see how you feel. as you've been told "Reinstatement of a very small dose of the original drug is the only known way to help alleviate withdrawal syndrome."

 

and as Gridley said back in January:

"The only other alternative is to try and wait out the symptoms and manage as best you can until your central nervous system returns to homeostasis.  Unfortunately no one can give you an exact timeline as to when you will start feeling better and while some do recover relatively easily, for others it can take many months or longer. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

you're going to drive yourself crazy with all the "what ifs"

There is only one way to know if reinstatement will help you or not, and that is to try it

 

personally, esp considering how anxious you are about this, IF you decide to reinstate, I'd take maybe even a single bead, or the smallest amt possible

 

In my mind, this is the best "harm reduction" way to go, esp since you are worried that it will make things worse.

 

keep in mind that how you feel and what you believe is going to influence how things go.

 

if you truly believe that taking any more of the drug is going to make you worse, if that's what you believe, then you need to start doing some serious work on coping with and accepting the symptoms.

You need to ask yourself: I am just AFRAID reinstatement will make me feel worse, or is that something I truly believe will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

you need to find a way to manage these symptoms either way. 

 

you can do it, but it's not going to be easy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dragon]

Hi @Rozon1 I can feel your anguish all the way across the Atlantic Ocean ! (The Pond as they say....) I think you're having difficulty accepting that there are no certainties to be had in this world. There are even less when dealing with withdrawal. You probably won't be able to match your history with anyone else's and even if you could, you are not the same as they are. We are all different people with individual experiences, drug histories and body chemistries. It helps not to think in terms of mathematical certainties. I know what you're reaching for. It's reassurance in a frightening unknown situation. The problem is that we have been brought up (raised) to think that Doctors know best. They are scientists and know what they are talking about. It's frightening to find out that this is not true. I found that to make decisions about reinstatement, supplements and coping generally, I had to, in the end, look inside myself and find what my basic instinct was telling me. Others on this site can tell you what they went through, and what is likely, but they cannot know what your experience will be. At some point you yourself have to take the plunge and go with your own inner truth. Meditation can be a good place to start with calming yourself. There are topics about non drug ways of dealing with anxiety on this website. When you've calmed yourself down a bit you'll find it easier to think clearly. Read through the whole of your thread and recall what you've been saying. That should help you to decide what is best for you to do. When you've decided, stick with it, and that will be calming in itself.

 

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this dreadful ordeal. For myself, I'm feeling lots of rage on your behalf. That's my out of control emotions.😉

 

By the way, I suffered with dreadful anxiety for the first few months, but I've had a couple of windows now, so that gives me a little hope. You will improve too. You can be sure of that, just not the details.

[Rozon1]

@Dragon do you plan on tapering from effexor? I’ve got one week left before I can make the decision to reinstate and I’m not sure it’ll be the right move. Is there links to where people reinstated and tapered successfully? 

[Dragon]

Sorry @Rozon1, was I being muddled ? I finished tapering from effexor in June 2019, (have a look at my drug history). I tapered too fast and had bad withdrawal symptoms-terrible anxiety but I'm much better now, though not completely well. I'm a work in progress. I get that you're not sure about what decision to make about reinstating. What I was saying was that you can never be sure if you make the right decision about reinstatement. Even after you've made it you can't be sure what would have happened if you'd taken the alternative course. You just have to take a punt and go with it. Your own confidence and faith in yourself will get you through, if you let it.  Like most important decisions, it has to be completely yours. Just go with your strongest instinct and jump. Then stick with it.

 

There are success stories of people who have reinstated on the website, which I'm sure you've found. You won't find anyone with a history that is exactly the same as yours because we are all different individuals and you're just going round and round the same mulberry bush again. You are torturing yourself looking for some exact guidance that isn't there. It is frightening but that's the way it is. 

"keep in mind that how you feel and what you believe is going to influence how things go." These are very wise words from @Happy2Heal

 

I'm really sorry you are finding this so hard.

[Rozon1]

hey, @Altostrata I know you had answered. Let's say I reinstate back at 0.5MG and I feel better. How long do I stay at that dose before I taper? Or do I continue to taper up and see if my symptoms continue to get better or worse?

[Rozon1]

Also what about taking ambien for sleep while in withdrawl? 

[brassmonkey]

Ambien is highly addictive, poopsout  quickly in many cases and leaves a person in a worse place then when they started.  We never recommend starting another medication to cover the affects that are already in progress.

 

If you decide to reinstate and things go well then you stay on that dose until your are very stable before attempting to taper. Because of all the changes and CTs you've made in the last year it is going to take a very long time for you to stabilize. From observations I would guess six months to a year minimum quite possibly longer. 

 

There is no way of us telling how things are going to react for you.  All we have to go on is past experience as to what has happened to others.  We've given you all that information already, many times over. The decision is up to you, either go for it or not and then work through what ever happens.

[Rozon1]

@brassmonkey do you think by battling these withdrawls I’ll eventually have lessened anxiety? Like the symptoms severity lowers? 

[brassmonkey]

Anxiety is one of the more pervasive symptoms of ADWD and will come and go as it pleases.  It frequently comes in waves that last several weeks to months and then goes away for a while, only to return when it feels like it. The waves tend to get shorter and less intense as time passes and a person stabilizes and their taper progresses.  It is a really tough symptom to live with, I had a very strong 18 month wave after I jumped to "0" that lasted several weeks.  But it is just a very uncomfortable feeling that can be lived around and in time it will go away.

[Rozon1]

@brassmonkey let’s just say I’m able to handle the withdrawls for a year. Do you see my symptoms becoming less and less severe?

[Rozon1]

@Longestroadhome yea my withdrawl is intense. I wonder if I'm like worst case that anyone has seen intense, you know?

[Happy2Heal]

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Rozon, next time you have a question, read this topic from the beginning before you post. You're asking the same question over and over.

[Rozon1]

Okay so I’m thinking I’m going to reinstate. I have the immediate release venlafaxine. I read the article but it’s super confusing in the state my brain is in. How do I get 1mg from the 37.5 tablet with the scale ? Or is the water solution better? 

[Rozon1]

@Altostrata or @brassmonkey would you mind being of some assistance in helping me find what 1mg of a 37.5 pill is?

[Happy2Heal]

On 2/6/2020 at 2:25 PM, Altostrata said:

You might take 6 beads out of the Effexor XR capsule and see it that helps. You'd taper off bead by bead after stabilizing for some months.

I don't know how many mgs 6 beads is equal to, but my guess would be that's it's around  1mg

 

can you open up a capsule and count how many beads are in it? then divide that by the mgs per capsule so you'd know how much was in a single bead

 

[Rozon1]

@Happy2Heal I don't have a capsule. Tablet is what I'm using.

[Happy2Heal]

how many mgs are the tablets?

[Happy2Heal]

do you have the 37.5 mg tablets?

 

[Rozon1]

@Happy2Heal yea! 37.5 tablets!

[Rozon1]

I have the 37.5 Instant Release tablets..

 

I have a gemini scale.. What's the most accurate way to get the 1mg or below method? Liquid or Scale?

 

Also, how do I find out what 1mg is of 37.5 weight wise or liquid wise. Could use some serious help 

[Happy2Heal]

 

17 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

@Happy2Heal yea! 37.5 tablets!

can you have a compounding pharmacy make it into a liquid for you?

 

It may be possible to do this yourself, but there's a good chance that the crushed pill fragments won't stay suspended evenly in the solution

 

one way to do it is to order a special suspending solution, amazon sells it. 

https://www.amazon.com/PADDOCK-LABORATORIES-Ora-Plus-Suspending-Vehicle/dp/B000GGHSQM/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=suspending+liquid&qid=1581722075&sr=8-2

 

or

https://www.amazon.com/Humco-Flavor-Plus-16-oz/dp/B0773N95JL/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=suspending+liquid&qid=1581722075&sr=8-1

 

 

If you don't use the suspending liquid, you would need to shake your solution vigorously and draw up your dose immediately and still, it's probably not going to be as precise as having a compounding pharmacy make you some.

 

 

I am NOT good at math, so PLEASE check these figures with someone who is!
 

I think if you dissolve a 37.5mg tablet in 100mls of water, you'd end up with 0.375mgs per each ml of solution

 

you are going to need small needle less syringes to draw up the doses

 

if you took 2mls of solution, you'd be taking 0.75 mgs of effexor, a tiny amount, just under 1mg

 

BUT PLEASE CHECK WITH OTHERS REGARDING THE MATH

I'm not good with numbers!!

I guess another way to do this is to weigh the tablet, crush it and then put a tiny bit of powder on a super sensitive scale https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1596-using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses/

 

[manymoretodays]

5 hours ago, Rozon1 said:

Okay so I’m thinking I’m going to reinstate. I have the immediate release venlafaxine. I read the article but it’s super confusing in the state my brain is in. How do I get 1mg from the 37.5 tablet with the scale ? Or is the water solution better? 

 

 

  Sorry, had to requote the below, after moving it back here to your introduction.

 

1 hour ago, Rozon1 said:

I have the 37.5 Instant Release tablets..

 

I have a gemini scale.. What's the most accurate way to get the 1mg or below method? Liquid or Scale?

 

Also, how do I find out what 1mg is of 37.5 weight wise or liquid wise. Could use some serious help 

 

 

Hi Rozon1,

Okay, looks like you may need to go back to page 1 and 2 of your introduction again. 

Do you have syringes at the ready?  And a mixing container?

 

You are working with a 37.5 mg tablet of immediate release Effexor.

 

And from: Tips for tapering off Effexor and EffexorXR,  right in post 1 you'll see this:

Because of its short half-life, taking regular Effexor as a tablet or liquid necessitates taking the tablets every 12 hours.

Use a liquid solution of immediate-release venlafaxine (Effexor XR cannot be made into a liquid)
Titrating using a liquid is very good for very small measured decreases in dosage, allowing more precise measurements.

• Have immediate-release venlafaxine made into a compounded liquid by a compounding pharmacy.
• Make a solution of immediate-release venlafaxine and water yourself.
  Technically, venlafaxine is water-soluble (http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/phar/VENLAFAXINE%20HYDROCHLORIDE.htm ) There are reports that you can make a solution yourself (http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-drugs/tapering-effexor-how-method-2-a-32338.html ) Also see How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules We don't know how stable a homemade solution would be -- how long it would last at full strength

 

You are going to be working with a small amount of Effexor, so I'd suggest the liquid.  And then you may want to start with just a 0.5 mg or 1 mg dose, twice a day.  Immediate release Effexor is short acting, and so.......is dosed every 12 hours.

 

I still don't know how stable a homemade solution would be, and for how long at full strength.  Immediate release Effexor comes in 25 mg strength too, but I think you can work with the 37.5 mg tablet now or soon, as that's what you have.  

 

Maybe @brassmonkey might know or be able to find out, if intermediate Effexor in water, needs special considerations, as far as storage goes.  Generally, most homemade solutions, can be stored in the fridge, and kept for at least 3 days, protected from light(in an amber glass bottle or even in a brown paper bag once mixed)

 

I'm going to refer you back to my post on page 2,  https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/22263-rozon1-effexor-withdrawls/?do=findComment&comment=471199

I linked there to more about making your own solution, syringes, etc.

There is also the link there to the how to's of note taking for you, when and while you do the reinstatement.  That would be very helpful.

 

So.....that's my ten cents and I may move/merge your stand alone topic with questions around all this, back here from tapering.  It's also quoted above.

 

And okay, yes.......you could inquire now about getting a pharmacist to compound your drug into a liquid.  It may be expensive.  And/or use the ora base to suspend your particles more evenly.  I see that Happy2Heal is helping you out as well.

 

So.....for now, right now........you are on review and study time I think.  Using some non-drug coping skills too, I hope.  I know you have been very anxious around all this to date.

 

And to summarize.  Yes, I think liquid would be best for these small doses now, with your decision to reinstate.   I know I saw a few more @'s up a few posts and the others may weigh in as well.  Be patient Rozon1.  I was just passing through and I am always checking for misplaced posts in other areas now.  Found yours......and well.......there's my input.

 

Best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited February 15, 2020 by manymoretodays
had to requote after merging topics

[Rozon1]

@manymoretodays you mean 0.5mg - 1mg per dose a day on total, correct? Not 1mg twice a day, correct? 
 

also how often would I ideally have to go to a compounding pharmacist to get these done? I’m not the best on finances so I’m not sure that’s the best option for me but it’s not terribly expensive I might be able to. Would it be something I would do month to month or could they break up a tablet that could last several days?

[manymoretodays]

This is what I meant, to be a bit clearer.

 

I think you could try 1 mg twice a day, to be honest.  Either that or just 0.5 mg twice a day. 

The first would have you reinstating at 2 mg total/day and the second option just 1 mg total/day.

I think either is still cautiously low enough for a reinstatement now.

 

Yes, you'll have to call around in your area to find out more about compounding.  The Effexor taper link did note that it might turn out to be a unaffordable option for some.

 

They usually will do at least a month at a time.  It depends on the drug of course. 

 

I hate to over complicate the whole process more than we have to........but you could possibly weigh out 1/2 of your 37.5 mg tablets and have twice as much to work with.  

Are you able to keep getting the prescription for 37.5 mg tablets monthly and affordably now?  As that might help avoid over complicating everything.

 

Hopefully, you can get it all figured out soon enough and give it a try.  Let's see what brass or Alto may have to add, when they get a chance to as well.

 

Okay?  And hey Happy Valentines day......in that universal good intentions way!  ❤️

[Rozon1]

Thanks @manymoretodays! Yea I can continue getting the prescription. Today hlive some physical improvements. Small ones. I’m able to have that tingly sensation again when someone touches me or if I’m just day dreaming. I haven’t felt that in a long time 

[manymoretodays]

Hey.  That's great.  Small improvements are good improvements.

I just read over more of H2H's stuff now too.

I think, it might simplify a bit to just make a 1 mg per 1 mL solution. 

For example:  if you used water, and let the 37.5 mg tablet dissolve in 37.5 mL of room temperature water in your mixing container. 

                         the resulting mix would be 1 mg/ 1 mL.

 

So then you would need one larger syringe to measure the water with.  And then a 1 mL syringe to measure your doses out with.

 

You'd then end up discarding the liquid after 3-7 days(depending on what we find out around stability of your solution, I'm still thinking water, and unlikely you would want to use any home made solution after 7 days.......we'll see what brass thinks too)

 

So....each tablet of 37.5 mg would yield you at least a few days of dosing.

And this way, we keep the math simple too.  And you'll wind up with plenty of 37.5 mg tablets going forward.

 

You do understand that if this small updose is helpful, then you just stay put with it, for often several months, before considering another taper off.  And then when you do taper off, it's much less to taper down from.

I know that even a small reduction in your symptoms would be worth it now.  And a new level of WD stability would help.

We don't really know until you try though.  So......there's that.  Just summarizing and hopefully refreshing your understanding now. 

Do take some time to look through all the pertinent links now though.  You can probably absorb much more than you think.  And plan well.

 

And okay, fingers crossed for best outcomes now.

 

Over and out.  I've got sweat lodge tomorrow, and then some company coming round next week.  So can only pop in more occasionally right now.

[brassmonkey]

You need to know the total weight of a whole tablet. Divide that by 37.5 and that will give you the mgpw for 1mgai of medication.

[Rozon1]

@brassmonkey total weight in grams, I assume? Do you recommend this way or do you recommend the liquid?

[brassmonkey]

Total weight in milligrams. Otherwise the decimal point will cause problems.

 

I'm a fan of weighing the powder, but both methods are quite effective.  If you've been on tablets then there will be a change over period to get on to the liquid.  Some people can't tolerate the liquid, even if it's made from the pills they have been using.

[Rozon1]

What do you do to grind it up and put it on the scale

 

also my scale only has g, oz, ozt, dwt, gn.. where do I put the left over powder? Save it in bag?

@brassmonkey

[manymoretodays]

Please see:  Using a digital scale to measure doses

I'm just noticing in the ^ link, that much of the information that pertains to your current questions, starts around page 6.

Look for the posts from both brassmonkey and Frogie. 

It's a long topic, packed full of information.

 

[Rozon1]

@manymoretodays thank you for the link! Helpful but I’m so overwhelmed by all of this. Can I get a dosage of 0.1mg with the Gemini scale? 
 

@Altostratai hate to ask you but could you help me here since you seem to know much about this?