Alan1234: desperately seeking help

[Rosetta]

All right, I did not remember that about Vortiotexitine affecting you that way.  Scary.
 

As much as I dislike Venlafaxine, you are no longer suicidal, and that is most important.  Therefore, I would stay at 12.5.  After all that’s what you were taking in May of 2020 when you CTed.  Maybe your body needs a little bit of it.  
 

You have no idea how lucky you are that your SI went away.  Risking going back to being suicidal is not a good idea, right?  You might make more mistakes after that.  If it does come back and is too frequent or intense, you could think about what to do then.  So, in the interest of stabilization, I think Venlafaxine is not a bad option.  I was hoping Vortiotexitine was a better option, but clearly not.  In light of that, please don’t reduce your dose.
 

Your signature says 25 mg, but you are taking only one of the tiny pills inside the capsule, correct?  You should fix that on your signature.

 

If you stay at 12.5 and try to stabilize, the Mods will eventually get around to your thread.  Also, do this: keep notes on when you take your dose, how much you take, and how you feel afterward throughout the day.  Keep them on paper.  The mods might ask you for them sometime, and if you are in the habit of doing that, it will be good.
 

As for tapering later, there are Effexor/Venlafaxine capsules that have little beads in them.  You would not need a scale.  People count the beads, and taper that way.

[Alan1234]

32 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

All right, I did not remember that about Vortiotexitine affecting you that way.  Scary.
 

As much as I dislike Venlafaxine, you are no longer suicidal, and that is most important.  Therefore, I would stay at 12.5.  After all that’s what you were taking in May of 2020 when you CTed.  Maybe your body needs a little bit of it.  
 

You have no idea how lucky you are that your SI went away.  Risking going back to being suicidal is not a good idea, right?  You might make more mistakes after that.  If it does come back and is too frequent or intense, you could think about what to do then.  So, in the interest of stabilization, I think Venlafaxine is not a bad option.  I was hoping Vortiotexitine was a better option, but clearly not.  In light of that, please don’t reduce your dose.
 

Your signature says 25 mg, but you are taking only one of the tiny pills inside the capsule, correct?  You should fix that on your signature.

 

If you stay at 12.5 and try to stabilize, the Mods will eventually get around to your thread.  Also, do this: keep notes on when you take your dose, how much you take, and how you feel afterward throughout the day.  Keep them on paper.  The mods might ask you for them sometime, and if you are in the habit of doing that, it will be good.
 

As for tapering later, there are Effexor/Venlafaxine capsules that have little beads in them.  You would not need a scale.  People count the beads, and taper that way.

I’m not sure if it’s the worry of me stressing about all my symptoms. I never slept one wink with the Zopliclone last night and today my anxiety has been severe and very similar to what it was like when I was on the Vortioxetine. I’ve been on the Venlafaxine for a week and a day. 
 

im really not in a good place today to make any decisions on my own. Thank you for your thoughts, I’m not helping you much with my reports. 
 

I just need to decide 

 

1) cont with 12.5mg Venlafaxine 

 

2) taper or half dose as it maybe too much for my system (it’s hard to know after the first few days off Vortioxetine I felt less severe anxiety, over the last few days it is returning) I had to take 20mg propanol last night for the first time in a 9days

 

3) stop the Venlafaxine straight away as Vortioxetine and Venlafaxine have just made my kindling worse 

 

I feel so isolated, your the only person who understands, I feel like I’m going mad, my mother thinks I’m a insane. 

[Alan1234]

Just now, Alan1234 said:

I’m not sure if it’s the worry of me stressing about all my symptoms. I never slept one wink with the Zopliclone last night and today my anxiety has been severe and very similar to what it was like when I was on the Vortioxetine. I’ve been on the Venlafaxine for a week and a day. 
 

im really not in a good place today to make any decisions on my own. Thank you for your thoughts, I’m not helping you much with my reports. 
 

I just need to decide 

 

1) cont with 12.5mg Venlafaxine 

 

2) taper or half dose as it maybe too much for my system (it’s hard to know after the first few days off Vortioxetine I felt less severe anxiety, over the last few days it is returning) I had to take 20mg propanol last night for the first time in a 9days

 

3) stop the Venlafaxine straight away as Vortioxetine and Venlafaxine have just made my kindling worse 

 

I feel so isolated, your the only person who understands, I feel like I’m going mad, my mother thinks I’m a insane. 

 

[Alan1234]

I really need a MODS help but what I am expecting. It’s a really tough decision for anyone to help me with all the changes and how I am

[Anna42]

@Alan1234Hey, i am not a mod and know nothing about the hell you are in but can offer some emotional support if you want any. You are not alone, a lot of people here care about you and want you to recover. If all i wrote seems like platitudes, that is fine too, you are healing, all emotions are healthy

[Alan1234]

1 hour ago, Anna42 said:

@Alan1234Hey, i am not a mod and know nothing about the hell you are in but can offer some emotional support if you want any. You are not alone, a lot of people here care about you and want you to recover. If all i wrote seems like platitudes, that is fine too, you are healing, all emotions are healthy

@Anna42 hey thank you means a lot.

I’ve lost everything, career, house, wife, self respect with my daughters and nobody I know has ever experienced or knows anything about this. Everyone just thinks I’m depressed or a little anxious and can’t understand why I can’t just snap myself out of it. I really need to start helping myself better through. just not sure that that looks like. Everyday is a wave with some very small windows. So the small windows are at least some hope. Thanks again  

[Rosetta]

Because of windows and waves it’s very hard to know if increased anxiety is because of a new med or if it’s just a wave.  That’s why you have to keep notes about every day’s fluctuations after you take the pill.  Only by looking at that info can someone who has experience make an educated guess about whether you have had a reaction to Venlafaxine.

 

People who have not experienced WD from ADs cannot understand.  The degree of anxiety is not within the experience of normal life.

 

I wish I could tell you how to proceed, but no one knows for sure what is best for you at this point, not even the Mods.  No matter what you do you will have windows and waves.  So, trying to base a decision on how you feel at any given time isn’t useful.

 

The best thing to do right now is to keep notes and then post them every day.  See this: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1779-recording-drug-schedule-and-symptoms-to-track-patterns-and-progress/

At the very least you may be able to determine if you are having a drug reaction.  If you change anything now, it will make the data worthless, so I would stay on the 12.5 mg. Take the notes every day and post them.  After about a week, you should know if there is a reaction.  
 

If there is no bad reaction, you should hold steady with the dose for a long time, maybe months, until you stabilize, and then you can start to taper off.

 

[Alan1234]

9 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Because of windows and waves it’s very hard to know if increased anxiety is because of a new med or if it’s just a wave.  That’s why you have to keep notes about every day’s fluctuations after you take the pill.  Only by looking at that info can someone who has experience make an educated guess about whether you have had a reaction to Venlafaxine.

 

People who have not experienced WD from ADs cannot understand.  The degree of anxiety is not within the experience of normal life.

 

I wish I could tell you how to proceed, but no one knows for sure what is best for you at this point, not even the Mods.  No matter what you do you will have windows and waves.  So, trying to base a decision on how you feel at any given time isn’t useful.

 

The best thing to do right now is to keep notes and then post them every day.  See this: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1779-recording-drug-schedule-and-symptoms-to-track-patterns-and-progress/

At the very least you may be able to determine if you are having a drug reaction.  If you change anything now, it will make the data worthless, so I would stay on the 12.5 mg. Take the notes every day and post them.  After about a week, you should know if there is a reaction.  
 

If there is no bad reaction, you should hold steady with the dose for a long time, maybe months, until you stabilize, and then you can start to taper off.

 

It’s usually taking 3days for symptoms to peak after a dose or drug change unless I’ve taken the recommended dose from then doctor/psychiatrist then I get severe symptoms everyday

 

 What would you do regards Zopliclone? Continue with my taper 2wks@5.6mg, 2wls@3.75mg, 2wks @1.85mg then stop ? 
ive been on it since 12th Oct.

 

shall I not take propanol or only as emergency ever now and again 10/20mg?

 

I have stopped tadilfil today, maybe I should taper this ?

 

 

[Rosetta]

How often do you take propranolol? If you DONOT have dangerously high blood pressure, and are not hooked on it, I would not take it.  If propranolol makes you feel bad, I would not take it.  That is what I understood from a previous post — it makes you feel bad the next day.  So you just started taking it Nov 9, right?  However!  Do you have very high blood pressure in a dangerous range?  Do you have a home blood pressure monitor? Obviously, if you have dangerously high blood pressure, you would take it for emergencies.  Did the doctor give it to you to take every day because of a fear of dangerously high blood pressure?  

Zopliclone — if you have taken it every night since Oct 12, I think there is a very strong chance you are hooked.  Don’t rock the boat.  Keep taking it.

 

I’m having a hard time keeping all your drugs straight.

 

This is the basic rule: If you think you are hooked on something, you should keep taking it unless you have determined that you are having a bad reaction.  After you stabilize you can taper.

 

You have been taking tadafil — that’s a vasodialator, right? — since March of 2021.  I wouldn’t make any changes right now to anything you have been taking for months.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Rosetta
Add DO NOT

[Alan1234]

30 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

How often do you take propranolol? If you DONOT have dangerously high blood pressure, and are not hooked on it, I would not take it.  If propranolol makes you feel bad, I would not take it.  That is what I understood from a previous post — it makes you feel bad the next day.  So you just started taking it Nov 9, right?  However!  Do you have very high blood pressure in a dangerous range?  Do you have a home blood pressure monitor? Obviously, if you have dangerously high blood pressure, you would take it for emergencies.  Did the doctor give it to you to take every day because of a fear of dangerously high blood pressure?  

Zopliclone — if you have taken it every night since Oct 12, I think there is a very strong chance you are hooked.  Don’t rock the boat.  Keep taking it.

 

I’m having a hard time keeping all your drugs straight.

 

This is the basic rule: If you think you are hooked on something, you should keep taking it unless you have determined that you are having a bad reaction.  After you stabilize you can taper.

 

You have been taking tadafil — that’s a vasodialator, right? — since March of 2021.  I wouldn’t make any changes right now to anything you have been taking for months.

Thank you for your advice

The problem is I haven’t been stable since March 2021 since the Psychiatrist directly switched me from 15mg Mirtazapine to 10 mg paroxetine. This really destabilised me again. I then developed all the cardiac symptoms and exercise intolerance after the Covid jab in May. 
 

No I’m not hooked on propanol but it helps but I’ve hardly taken it. Maximum 7 times over last month. 
 

My blood pressure is high because of constant anxiety. It’s 130/65 lying and 150/80 standing. I think this is the dysautonimia symptoms. 
 

I’ll stay on the Zopliclone.

 

I understand why you’re having such a hard time with all the drugs. I do need to start making decisions and slowly stopping one at a time somehow. The longer I stay on them all I’m just not healing and stupidity has led me to more drugs. 
 

yes Tadafil is a Vasodialator. I think this has caused the facial rashes rosacea/lupus type rash. I think it may have also contributed to the dysautonomia. The only benefit it may has had is that it has helped my urinary flow.

 

God please help me make the right decisions and help me to get off these awful drugs and help my body heal and recover 

[DebM]

Hi Alan,

 

I am new and tried to follow most of your thread. I am so sorry for all the challenge and suffering you are going through. I am unsure what others will say about the idea of .05 melatonin to help with sleep? When my withdrawal increases that helps me. It does not in the last several years appear to impact my efforts with withdrawal.

 

I agree with what I read about too much exercise can increase withdrawal. Exercise helps me so very much!!  If I error on something it can be on doing too much exercising. I try to walk each morning about two miles as I was a runner before my challenges kicked in and this is something that thus far I can do. When my last withdrawal hit I could not walk 10 minutes at a time at first. I do yoga several times a week for 20 minutes. One has to gauge what you can do by how you feel and your stage.

 

I am hooked !!!!! on Epson salt baths. I take them now and when I was in significant withdrawal I took one everyday as well as cold showers. I also used Dr. Bonners Peppermint soap as it felt like it eased my pain and skin discomfort. I use peppermint essential oil on my temples for headaches. I try to be moderate with this. I have a diffuser by my bed at night with lavender essential oil to help with calming.

 

I try to eat healthy and have a protein drink everyday and ensure I am getting enough protein, greens and hydration. 

 

Meditating is a challenge now. I can do a breath in for a count of three and out for a count of six the best. The idea is to try to be in the present moment. Hard. One of my biggest challenges is being in the present moment. I want the moment in the future when I am off everything. Perhaps this idea is much like typical addiction recovery although much is not. I also try to practice meditation in the Epson salt bath as I know it helps the brain.  

 

I also read someone who mentioned that there vitamins seemed to impact withdrawal, I experienced this.  Many supplements interact with pharmaceuticals. You have to google to really look for supplement drug interactions. I used a sleep patch that had 5HTP in it as well as Skullcap and passionflower. This used in the summer began my crash and my withdrawal that interfered with my titration from Lexapro. Sad. I was down to only .7mg. 

 

May you experience moments of peace,

Deb

 

 

[Rosetta]

You understand the concept, I think, that stabilization comes from keeping everything the same for months or even over a year, right?  So, trying to get off drugs (on which you are dependent) that are not causing an adverse reaction is a bad idea.
 

Blood pressure of 140/90 on a regular basis is reason to go to the ER.  So, I think I would keep the vasodialator.  
 

This is the opposite of what I’m trying to tell you:

6 hours ago, Alan1234 said:

 

I do need to start making decisions and slowly stopping one at a time somehow. The longer I stay on them all I’m just not healing and stupidity has led me to more drugs. 

 

[Alan1234]

2 hours ago, Rosetta said:

You understand the concept, I think, that stabilization comes from keeping everything the same for months or even over a year, right?  So, trying to get off drugs (on which you are dependent) that are not causing an adverse reaction is a bad idea.
 

Blood pressure of 140/90 on a regular basis is reason to go to the ER.  So, I think I would keep the vasodialator.  
 

This is the opposite of what I’m trying to tell you:

Hi Rosetta

thank you for your patience and analysis. Like i say I’m simply not capable emotionally to make these decisions on my own. These conversations are enabling me to think, recall,and are giving me insight.

 

It’s really hard to know what I am dependent on (I don’t know if i am again now after 4wks on a AD and what is not causing me an adverse reactions  I’ve so many symptoms that over the last couple of months continue to grow so I think that this isn’t stability and something/somethings are causing me adverse reactions.

 

I will listen and stick to whatever you/we decide best. 
 

I was in the ER only 2wks ago after my doctor sent me due to adverse Vortioxetine reactions. They said it was just panic and anxiety and never mentioned Blood pressure.

 

The Tadafil will help with this your right. My Rosacea has got significantly worse since September on my face, Tadafil is strongly linked with Rosacea (although less likely it could be the Hcg). Finally something we need to consider with Tadafil. It causes increased vasodilation like you say that could also worsen dysautomina when standing. It is a known drug to make POTS worse. So again this may be contributing to my exercise intolerance. I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m just giving insight so I don’t make any rash decisions. My system is all over the place. The Zopliclone and AD over the last 4wks have made me significantly worse other than SI. 
 

I didn’t sleep again for the 3rd night running for any time at all even after Zopliclone. Before taking Zopliclone I was like this so it isn’t something to worry about. Just more information. 
 

And finally I was got 5 frightening episodes of brain zaps with myoclonus last night just as i was falling asleep. This has happened over the last 20mths when I have gone on or off an AD drug. It’s strange it’s a week in in the Venlafaxine, previously there usually worse in the immediate 3/4 days of AD change. They are really frightening and a big cause of anxiety around sleep. I need to monitor these over the next few days as I know they are not a good sign at all for me.

[Alan1234]

Just now, Alan1234 said:

Hi Rosetta

thank you for your patience and analysis. Like i say I’m simply not capable emotionally to make these decisions on my own. These conversations are enabling me to think, recall,and are giving me insight.

 

It’s really hard to know what I am dependent on (I don’t know if i am again now after 4wks on a AD and what is not causing me an adverse reactions  I’ve so many symptoms that over the last couple of months continue to grow so I think that this isn’t stability and something/somethings are causing me adverse reactions.

 

I will listen and stick to whatever you/we decide best. 
 

I was in the ER only 2wks ago after my doctor sent me due to adverse Vortioxetine reactions. They said it was just panic and anxiety and never mentioned Blood pressure.

 

The Tadafil will help with this your right. My Rosacea has got significantly worse since September on my face, Tadafil is strongly linked with Rosacea (although less likely it could be the Hcg). Finally something we need to consider with Tadafil. It causes increased vasodilation like you say that could also worsen dysautomina when standing. It is a known drug to make POTS worse. So again this may be contributing to my exercise intolerance. I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m just giving insight so I don’t make any rash decisions. My system is all over the place. The Zopliclone and AD over the last 4wks have made me significantly worse other than SI. 
 

I didn’t sleep again for the 3rd night running for any time at all even after Zopliclone. Before taking Zopliclone I was like this so it isn’t something to worry about. Just more information. 
 

And finally I was got 5 frightening episodes of brain zaps with myoclonus last night just as i was falling asleep. This has happened over the last 20mths when I have gone on or off an AD drug. It’s strange it’s a week in in the Venlafaxine, previously there usually worse in the immediate 3/4 days of AD change. They are really frightening and a big cause of anxiety around sleep. I need to monitor these over the next few days as I know they are not a good sign at all for me.

My situation appears that complex, I doubt any MODS will help me now.
I’m really scared. I can’t withdraw any drug like you say. My system is that unstable.
 

My anxiety is through the roof about it all, hence the BP. the insomnia is never ending. If I could get the anxiety to quieten for periods this is probably my best bet for stability 

[ChessieCat]

testosterone cypronate 12.5mg Pd Oct 2020 -present

 

Q:  Have you considered that it might the testosterone?

 

I suggest that you do some research on the possible side effects.

[Alan1234]

2 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

testosterone cypronate 12.5mg Pd Oct 2020 -present

 

Q:  Have you considered that it might the testosterone?

 

I suggest that you do some research on the possible side effects.

Yes I have considered it could be the testosterone. I am on the lowest possible dose and taking it micro dosed daily after having 3 Separate Consultant opinions.

 

When I didn’t know about AD withdrawal in May 2020, I assumed it was this. I thought when this was corrected I would be fixed.

 

However I don’t think this is the problem as this was diagnosed and only treated a while after what I now  know as withdrawal. I only started treatment at the end of October 2020. My withdrawals started in April and really severe from May 2020. The big issue being i didn’t know what they were. As it was mainly insomnia and severe anxiety i pursued blood tests that indicated a severe chronic deficiency. The return of depression and suicidal feelings came in Aug 2020

[Alan1234]

Just now, Alan1234 said:

Yes I have considered it could be the testosterone. I am on the lowest possible dose and taking it micro dosed daily after having 3 Separate Consultant opinions.

 

When I didn’t know about AD withdrawal in May 2020, I assumed it was this. I thought when this was corrected I would be fixed.

 

However I don’t think this is the problem as this was diagnosed and only treated a while after what I now  know as withdrawal. I only started treatment at the end of October 2020. My withdrawals started in April and really severe from May 2020. The big issue being i didn’t know what they were. As it was mainly insomnia and severe anxiety i pursued blood tests that indicated a severe chronic deficiency. The return of depression and suicidal feelings came in Aug 2020

@ChessieCat thank you for your opinion. I know you are trying to help. I’ve done extensive research on this and took 3 separate consultant opinions. One being a leading international Consultant who favours a less approach. He felt the Venlafaxine was potentially a contributing factor to the condition as it is known to raise prolactin significantly. I certainly know I don’t get hypnic brain zaps and jerks while falling asleep as an adverse affect. I’ve also lost 5kgs in weight since March 2022. This isn’t a side affect of testosterone and didn’t start in Oct 2020 

[Alan1234]

2 minutes ago, Alan1234 said:

@ChessieCat thank you for your opinion. I know you are trying to help. I’ve done extensive research on this and took 3 separate consultant opinions. One being a leading international Consultant who favours a less approach. He felt the Venlafaxine was potentially a contributing factor to the condition as it is known to raise prolactin significantly. I certainly know I don’t get hypnic brain zaps and jerks while falling asleep as an adverse affect. I’ve also lost 5kgs in weight since March 2022. This isn’t a side affect of testosterone and didn’t start in Oct 2020 

I think also rightly so testosterone is automatically thought as a very negative drug because of how it has been abused by bodybuilders and as such portrayed in the media. 
 

My testosterone levels were less than an average females and that of a 90yr old mans I was 1.1 nmol/L.

I’m certainly not take supra physiological levels, the medication is so I can achieve normal levels for a man of my age . I’m told its very important for many aspects of my health. I have chronic and in some places serve arthritis in my spine, knees, shoulders and elbows. They suggest that this has been caused by that as I’m usually young to have so much of it.

 

I could try coming off it slowly but one of the down sides is low testosterone causes depression and anxiety too. Also it can take 2yrs before the body can start it’s own production again. I’m told this is extremely  unlikely to happen  in my case as I never really had any to begin with. The Hcg that I’m taking is to try to preserve the 1.1nmol/L of function I had before treatment

[Rosetta]

Three nights with no sleep must make it hard to think straight.  I’m thinking of you, and I wish there were a way to get you back to normal quickly.   Keep hanging in there, and please keep those notes on paper.  

[Alan1234]

5 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Three nights with no sleep must make it hard to think straight.  I’m thinking of you, and I wish there were a way to get you back to normal quickly.   Keep hanging in there, and please keep those notes on paper.  

Unfortunately 3 nights of no sleep has been a regular thing for 21mths. When it got to 4 and 5nights that’s when I made the big mistake of taking Zopliclone and Vortioxetine and now Venlafaxine. I think this is what ignited the SI. 
 

yes I’m taking notes in an electronic diary everyday.

 

I need to learn distraction or some things I can do. I can’t tolerate or focus on TV or now even read much anymore 

 

thank you 

[Rosetta]

Ok, that’s great about the notes.  
 

Keeping the SI away is a good result of what “mistakes” you may have made.  Sometimes, it works out that way.  A mistake might turn out to be advantageous.  This whole WD thing is unpredictable that way.  
 

Let’s hope you can stabilize.  It’s very important not to panic if the SI comes back.  Just wait and see if it’s infrequent or mild, but having those notes saved up will give you a chance to see if the Venlafaxine is a positive or a negative.  
 

Once in a while, someone reinstates a drug (from the original CT or fast taper) after the ideal window for reinstatement, and it’s not a “mistake.”  (I wish the manufacturers would make smaller doses!). We don’t recommend that, generally, because of the risks and because it’s so hard to get a tiny dose to reinstate.  If 12.5 does not cause a bad reaction, it will be a good way for you to stabilize even if I wouldn’t have ever recommended that you try that large of a dose for reinstatement.  Now that you are here, we will work with what we have.

 

I don’t like the testosterone being a part of this, but I think that messing with anything right now is risky given that the SI is absent.  I do think that addressing the testosterone will be a priority in the future.  You need to have sleep and a clear mind when you do that.  We don’t help people taper testosterone here.  We know nothing about it except that we see it derail the recoveries of people.  So, you have to look to your doctor on that, and he’s saying you desperately need it.    
 

Let’s look toward gaining stability — over months and months — all while keeping those notes to watch for bad reactions, ok?

[Alan1234]

19 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Ok, that’s great about the notes.  
 

Keeping the SI away is a good result of what “mistakes” you may have made.  Sometimes, it works out that way.  A mistake might turn out to be advantageous.  This whole WD thing is unpredictable that way.  
 

Let’s hope you can stabilize.  It’s very important not to panic if the SI comes back.  Just wait and see if it’s infrequent or mild, but having those notes saved up will give you a chance to see if the Venlafaxine is a positive or a negative.  
 

Once in a while, someone reinstates a drug (from the original CT or fast taper) after the ideal window for reinstatement, and it’s not a “mistake.”  (I wish the manufacturers would make smaller doses!). We don’t recommend that, generally, because of the risks and because it’s so hard to get a tiny dose to reinstate.  If 12.5 does not cause a bad reaction, it will be a good way for you to stabilize even if I wouldn’t have ever recommended that you try that large of a dose for reinstatement.  Now that you are here, we will work with what we have.

 

I don’t like the testosterone being a part of this, but I think that messing with anything right now is risky given that the SI is absent.  I do think that addressing the testosterone will be a priority in the future.  You need to have sleep and a clear mind when you do that.  We don’t help people taper testosterone here.  We know nothing about it except that we see it derail the recoveries of people.  So, you have to look to your doctor on that, and he’s saying you desperately need it.    
 

Let’s look toward gaining stability — over months and months — all while keeping those notes to watch for bad reactions, ok?

Thanks Rosetta 

 

im 9days In on the Venlafaxine. It is causing some increased side affects by the day. I’ve got jaw clenching that is new over the last 2 days and I was having myotonic jerks while trying to sleep. They haven’t happened since March mainly. They are frightening. I’ve also had an increase in constant involuntary muscle spasm in my calf’s which it has made worse and today I have started with Akathisia.

 

The same thing happened with the Vortioxetine. I was telling the Psychiatrist as my symptoms grew more and Intense until unbearable and clearly unquestionably not right at 3wks. My body and mind is telling me that the dose is too high. I won’t stop it abruptly, I will continue on as guided but got worse by the day. Maybe this is the Vortioxetine in my system?

 

As for the testosterone I’ve most faith in doctors. The only thing here why I’ve carried on is there is quantifiable blood markers to substantiate his advice. It feels less of a random poisoning. 

[Rosetta]

Describe the akathisia.  If you are having that, you should not stay on 12.5 mg

[Alan1234]

Symptom diary from yesterday 

 

Brain Zaps 7

Jaw clenching spasm 6

Dry mouth 7

Tinnitus 7

Rosacea 7

Bladder 10 frequency and Volume

Insomnia 8 

Anxiety 9

Heart racing 5

Panic attacks 6

restless legs 8

Bilateral calf cramping day 7

Akathisia feelings 7

Crying/mood/depression 3

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by ChessieCat
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[Alan1234]

5 hours ago, Rosetta said:

Describe the akathisia.  If you are having that, you should not stay on 12.5 mg

 

It’s constant feeling of bilateral calf’s cramping and sensation of feeling wired and nerve sensations constantly pulsing through the lower legs. Its so uncomfortable i can’t keep still because of the sensations. 
 

its particularly bad in the morning and it gets worse every morning around 7am. The only way to distract or feel like it’s reduced is to keep walking around. As soon as you stop it comes back. The sensation is constant but after moving it decreases in severity for abit. It was particularly bad last night as was my I had to keep walking in circles around the garden it was too much to bear sitting still. One calf also has constant visible muscle twitching  all the time. If I sit and bounce my legs up and down on my toes to shake my muscles it detracts from the feeling momentarily 
 

I noticed after 3 days on  buspirone it made it worse to the point of unbearable that’s why i had to stop them. 
 

It started in March after they directed switched me to paroxetine. That’s why I stopped the paroxetine after a few days. It’s never gone away since then, every morning it has been worse and then been there all day abet not as bad as recently. 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by ChessieCat
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[Alan1234]

On 11/22/2021 at 3:38 AM, DebM said:

Hi Alan,

 

I am new and tried to follow most of your thread. I am so sorry for all the challenge and suffering you are going through. I am unsure what others will say about the idea of .05 melatonin to help with sleep? When my withdrawal increases that helps me. It does not in the last several years appear to impact my efforts with withdrawal.

 

I agree with what I read about too much exercise can increase withdrawal. Exercise helps me so very much!!  If I error on something it can be on doing too much exercising. I try to walk each morning about two miles as I was a runner before my challenges kicked in and this is something that thus far I can do. When my last withdrawal hit I could not walk 10 minutes at a time at first. I do yoga several times a week for 20 minutes. One has to gauge what you can do by how you feel and your stage.

 

I am hooked !!!!! on Epson salt baths. I take them now and when I was in significant withdrawal I took one everyday as well as cold showers. I also used Dr. Bonners Peppermint soap as it felt like it eased my pain and skin discomfort. I use peppermint essential oil on my temples for headaches. I try to be moderate with this. I have a diffuser by my bed at night with lavender essential oil to help with calming.

 

I try to eat healthy and have a protein drink everyday and ensure I am getting enough protein, greens and hydration. 

 

Meditating is a challenge now. I can do a breath in for a count of three and out for a count of six the best. The idea is to try to be in the present moment. Hard. One of my biggest challenges is being in the present moment. I want the moment in the future when I am off everything. Perhaps this idea is much like typical addiction recovery although much is not. I also try to practice meditation in the Epson salt bath as I know it helps the brain.  

 

I also read someone who mentioned that there vitamins seemed to impact withdrawal, I experienced this.  Many supplements interact with pharmaceuticals. You have to google to really look for supplement drug interactions. I used a sleep patch that had 5HTP in it as well as Skullcap and passionflower. This used in the summer began my crash and my withdrawal that interfered with my titration from Lexapro. Sad. I was down to only .7mg. 

 

May you experience moments of peace,

Deb

 

 

Hey Deb

thank you for your help and insight 

it seems you found this site at the right time and was informed and able to taper. I didn’t have a clue about withdrawals and have got myself in a right mess comparatively to most. 
All those suggestions sound great it’s just unfortunately where I am at present none of the alternative treatments/methods seem to work for me as my nervous system is so sensitively constantly. I can’t get any sleep for even 4/5days unless I use a sleeping tablet for example. I really appreciate your advice and thoughts though and hopefully soon I can put the advice to good work 

[Rosetta]

When is the last time you had to pace like that?  Was it before this last reinstatement of Venlafaxine? EDIT: I mean, the Vortiotexitine caused pacing, and it went away after you stopped it, but returned when in relation to your first dose of Ven?
 

Did you ever have the calf cramping before or is that completely new?  Same question for the jaw contraction.

 

Thanks for the notes. We need to see the symptoms on a timeline.  The symptom’s occurrence in relation to the time you take Venlafaxine is what we need to see.  So, you could mark every hour in your notes, and leave blanks if there is nothing to report or you could only post the hour if there is something to report 

Like this:

6:30 Ven 12.5 mg

7:00 calf cramp, pacing, heart racing, anxiety

7:30 jaw contraction, pacing, anxiety increases from 8 to 10

8:00 Urinate

 Breakfast, pacing

9:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

10:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

11:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

12:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

1:00 Brain zap Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

2:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

3:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

4:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

5:00 Anxiety decreases, pacing less necessary

6:00 Dinner

7:00 No pacing from now on

8:00 Restless legs

9:00 Tinnitus

10:00 Restless legs

11:00 No sleep

Midnight

1:00

2:00 Brain zap

3:00 Crying

4:00

5:00 Restless legs

6:00 Am Never slept

 

OR

 

6:30 Ven 12.5 mg

7:00 am calf cramp, pacing, heart racing, anxiety

7:30 jaw contraction, pacing, anxiety increases from 8 to 10

8:00 Urinate

 Breakfast

9:00 Walk, urinate

12:00 lunch, urinate

2:00 urinate

3:00 Able to sit in Epsom salts 5 min, pacing 5 min, epsom salt 5 min, pace 5 min, epsom salt 5 min

4:00 calf cramp, urinate

6:00 Dinner, urinate

No sleep

8:00, urinate

10:00 urinate

Midnight urinate

1:00 Slept 2 hours

3:00 Brain zap

5:00 am Slept 1.5 hours

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Rosetta
Add text in First paragraph

[Alan1234]

15 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

When is the last time you had to pace like that?  Was it before this last reinstatement of Venlafaxine? EDIT: I mean, the Vortiotexitine caused pacing, and it went away after you stopped it, but returned when in relation to your first dose of Ven?
 

Did you ever have the calf cramping before or is that completely new?  Same question for the jaw contraction.

 

Thanks for the notes. We need to see the symptoms on a timeline.  The symptom’s occurrence in relation to the time you take Venlafaxine is what we need to see.  So, you could mark every hour in your notes, and leave blanks if there is nothing to report or you could only post the hour if there is something to report 

Like this:

6:30 Ven 12.5 mg

7:00 calf cramp, pacing, heart racing, anxiety

7:30 jaw contraction, pacing, anxiety increases from 8 to 10

8:00 Urinate

 Breakfast, pacing

9:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

10:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

11:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

12:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

1:00 Brain zap Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

2:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

3:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

4:00 Pacing, heart racing, anxiety 9

5:00 Anxiety decreases, pacing less necessary

6:00 Dinner

7:00 No pacing from now on

8:00 Restless legs

9:00 Tinnitus

10:00 Restless legs

11:00 No sleep

Midnight

1:00

2:00 Brain zap

3:00 Crying

4:00

5:00 Restless legs

6:00 Am Never slept

 

OR

 

6:30 Ven 12.5 mg

7:00 am calf cramp, pacing, heart racing, anxiety

7:30 jaw contraction, pacing, anxiety increases from 8 to 10

8:00 Urinate

 Breakfast

9:00 Walk, urinate

12:00 lunch, urinate

2:00 urinate

3:00 Able to sit in Epsom salts 5 min, pacing 5 min, epsom salt 5 min, pace 5 min, epsom salt 5 min

4:00 calf cramp, urinate

6:00 Dinner, urinate

No sleep

8:00, urinate

10:00 urinate

Midnight urinate

1:00 Slept 2 hours

3:00 Brain zap

5:00 am Slept 1.5 hours

 

 

 

 

Last night was the first time I had uncontrollable paceing where my body did it on its own on the Venlafaxine or Vortioxetine. Usually I choose to do it to decrease symptoms. 

I had taken 12.5mg slow release in the morning.

 

The calf cramping never goes away it’s constant since March, but it is heightened like restless legs and peaks at 6:30am every morning. I have noticed that Vortioxetine made it worse, Venlafaxine has made it worse and when I took buspirone with Vortioxetine i had to stop it after 3days as i couldn’t keep my legs still and unbearable. Even on a standard day the restlessness at 6:30am means  I could never fall to sleep it’s that strong. 

 

The Jaw contraction is new started over the last 3days, worst it has been yesterday. 
 

I can give notes on a timeline, it does significantly stress me and causes my symptoms to be so much worse as soon as I acknowledge them and so I try forget them otherwise intolerable. Just sitting with them doesn’t help. 
 

im not able to get out walking since the Venlafaxine as my legs feel so shakey, I’ve fell down stairs once as I lost my footing/balance I’m not sure how. So all I’m doing is sitting here all day on here, I’m not able to go outside the house. I do notice the more time I look at things it’s making the anxiety worse. By trying to ignore them it seems better. All the symptoms are still there just my heart rate or anxiety won’t be quite as strong. Then for no reason it just builds and builds as the day gets on. I can’t watch TV as I can’t concentrate to take anything in and the colours and flashing pictures is triggering for panic attacks. I was able to read books and take things in a little in the summer but since my vision has gone blurry/short sighted and now I can’t concentrate or I read a sentence or two and can’t remember what I’ve read so I have to try and reread it. This is stressful also when it happens so I won’t try and read now. 
 

It’s like everything has got worse over the last 5wks as before I was managing to go out for walks and even the supermarket. I just don’t know if it’s the anxiety has got so much worse or it’s the drugs. The psychiatrists would argue it’s because I haven’t taken a clinical dose and it’s the anxiety getting worse. It’s a vicious circle as they make the symptoms unbearable to the point I fear for my life. 
 

I just wish I could just go to sleep and wake  up and it be more manageable or a lot of it be gone but I can’t rest enough as as soon as I lie down the legs make me restless and the anxiety is constant with nothing to distract ot or stop it. 

 

I will keep a time log

Atm I urinate through the day at least twice per hour and through the night once per hour to two hours maximum there is never a pattern other than that. When I was off drugs the best it got was once per 45mins to 90mins and every 90/120mins at night. 
 

Atm heart rate and anxiety is constant it is just peaking to unbearable levels from 5pm, to the point I feel like I’m fighting for my life, having to go outside, pace, anything because it’s so unbearable it feels like I’m dying and I don’t know how much longer I can hang in or fight it. 
 

Tinnitus was very mild then started on the antibiotics and then Vortioxetine stayed the same and now gone worse on Venlafaxine. Now it’s severe and constant it doesn’t remit 

[Alan1234]

Just now, Alan1234 said:

Last night was the first time I had uncontrollable paceing where my body did it on its own on the Venlafaxine or Vortioxetine. Usually I choose to do it to decrease symptoms. 

I had taken 12.5mg slow release in the morning.

 

The calf cramping never goes away it’s constant since March, but it is heightened like restless legs and peaks at 6:30am every morning. I have noticed that Vortioxetine made it worse, Venlafaxine has made it worse and when I took buspirone with Vortioxetine i had to stop it after 3days as i couldn’t keep my legs still and unbearable. Even on a standard day the restlessness at 6:30am means  I could never fall to sleep it’s that strong. 

 

The Jaw contraction is new started over the last 3days, worst it has been yesterday. 
 

I can give notes on a timeline, it does significantly stress me and causes my symptoms to be so much worse as soon as I acknowledge them and so I try forget them otherwise intolerable. Just sitting with them doesn’t help. 
 

im not able to get out walking since the Venlafaxine as my legs feel so shakey, I’ve fell down stairs once as I lost my footing/balance I’m not sure how. So all I’m doing is sitting here all day on here, I’m not able to go outside the house. I do notice the more time I look at things it’s making the anxiety worse. By trying to ignore them it seems better. All the symptoms are still there just my heart rate or anxiety won’t be quite as strong. Then for no reason it just builds and builds as the day gets on. I can’t watch TV as I can’t concentrate to take anything in and the colours and flashing pictures is triggering for panic attacks. I was able to read books and take things in a little in the summer but since my vision has gone blurry/short sighted and now I can’t concentrate or I read a sentence or two and can’t remember what I’ve read so I have to try and reread it. This is stressful also when it happens so I won’t try and read now. 
 

It’s like everything has got worse over the last 5wks as before I was managing to go out for walks and even the supermarket. I just don’t know if it’s the anxiety has got so much worse or it’s the drugs. The psychiatrists would argue it’s because I haven’t taken a clinical dose and it’s the anxiety getting worse. It’s a vicious circle as they make the symptoms unbearable to the point I fear for my life. 
 

I just wish I could just go to sleep and wake  up and it be more manageable or a lot of it be gone but I can’t rest enough as as soon as I lie down the legs make me restless and the anxiety is constant with nothing to distract ot or stop it. 

 

I will keep a time log

Atm I urinate through the day at least twice per hour and through the night once per hour to two hours maximum there is never a pattern other than that. When I was off drugs the best it got was once per 45mins to 90mins and every 90/120mins at night. 
 

Atm heart rate and anxiety is constant it is just peaking to unbearable levels from 5pm, to the point I feel like I’m fighting for my life, having to go outside, pace, anything because it’s so unbearable it feels like I’m dying and I don’t know how much longer I can hang in or fight it. 
 

Tinnitus was very mild then started on the antibiotics and then Vortioxetine stayed the same and now gone worse on Venlafaxine. Now it’s severe and constant it doesn’t remit 

I need to balance getting the support on here and specific advice and symptom dairy but be very condensed it’s heightening everything when I spend time online 

[Alan1234]

15 minutes ago, Alan1234 said:

I need to balance getting the support on here and specific advice and symptom dairy but be very condensed it’s heightening everything when I spend time online 

Sorry again for all the bombardment.

it’s like all my symptoms are so strong the more I think about them the more I can’t distance myself away from them and the more they can be heightened. It’s like I’m in a vicious circle with them and I have a health OCD developing.

 

I do really need and want your help and support though 

[Rosetta]

 I’m very troubled by the muscle contractions in your jaw starting 3 days ago.  When did the calf cramps start? At the same time?

 

I am not knowledgeable enough to feel comfortable telling you to stop taking Venlafaxine over that, but my gut reaction, if it were me, would be to cut the dose in half.  I have tardive dystonia from these drugs, and if a doctor had been monitoring me the way she should have, I would have been better off.  It’s just that you don’t have a way to cut the pills in half.  Do you have mortar and pestle in the kitchen?

 

I’m troubled by the fact that you are pacing uncontrollably and saying that you have more intense symptoms than 5 weeks ago.  
 

If you can give just 4 days of notes on a timeline starting 2 hours before you take your dose to about 4 hours afterward, I think that would help.  Maybe you could call doctor Healy again and tell him what the notes say if you get no response from the Mods.

 

I don’t want to be responsible for making a mistake here, but I have seen Mods tell a person who developed akathisia or increased akathisia and / or muscle contractions to cut the dose or stop taking it all together.  Those are two serious side effects.  You will have to decide for yourself if you are going to continue for 4 days and post notes.
 

So, you may need to go out and get a mortar and pestle today if you don’t have one.  Venlafaxine might not be dissolvable in water.  If it’s not, it may be dissolvable in Vodka.  Let me check.

[Rosetta]

Apparently, it might be water soluble.  Scroll down through this post to see how to dissolve the pill in water:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/272-tips-for-tapering-off-effexor-and-effexor-xr-venlafaxine/

 

If you end up with a gel like glue, then you have at type of tablet in those gel caps that is not soluble in water.  Why don’t you try it with one today and see what happens so that you will know.  If you cannot dissolve them, you will need to see your doctor to get the type of Venlafaxine that has many tiny beads inside.  You can count beads to get 1/2 a dose.

 

We don’t know if your increased akathisia is from quitting Vortiotexitine, but your new symptoms are very worrying, and are signs of an adverse reaction.  Please call your doctor today and tell him about the muscle issues, and ask for Venlafaxine with beads inside.

 

SA, does anyone know what kind of Venlafaxine — manufacturer’s name — has beads?

 

This is risky, but you could stop taking Ven for a couple of days and see if the muscle contractions stop.   

 

[Rosetta]

Please look at the box and see if the drug is extended release or regular Venlafaxine and let us know.

[Faure]

Is it worth tagging a mod who has commented before for advice? I think they respond pretty fast if they are tagged….

[Alan1234]

27 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

 I’m very troubled by the muscle contractions in your jaw starting 3 days ago.  When did the calf cramps start? At the same time?

 

I am not knowledgeable enough to feel comfortable telling you to stop taking Venlafaxine over that, but my gut reaction, if it were me, would be to cut the dose in half.  I have tardive dystonia from these drugs, and if a doctor had been monitoring me the way she should have, I would have been better off.  It’s just that you don’t have a way to cut the pills in half.  Do you have mortar and pestle in the kitchen?

 

I’m troubled by the fact that you are pacing uncontrollably and saying that you have more intense symptoms than 5 weeks ago.  
 

If you can give just 4 days of notes on a timeline starting 2 hours before you take your dose to about 4 hours afterward, I think that would help.  Maybe you could call doctor Healy again and tell him what the notes say if you get no response from the Mods.

 

I don’t want to be responsible for making a mistake here, but I have seen Mods tell a person who developed akathisia or increased akathisia and / or muscle contractions to cut the dose or stop taking it all together.  Those are two serious side effects.  You will have to decide for yourself if you are going to continue for 4 days and post notes.
 

So, you may need to go out and get a mortar and pestle today if you don’t have one.  Venlafaxine might not be dissolvable in water.  If it’s not, it may be dissolvable in Vodka.  Let me check.

The calf cramps gradually emerged after withdrawal from Mirtazapine in March. However they have gotten worse on each new drug(Vort, Buspirone, Ven). I also have near constant right calf fascialitations. 
 

The jaw clenching is mild but it’s new and does seem associated with the calf symptoms. 
 

my gut reaction agrees with you I think I need to half the dose. All these symptoms seem to have gradually occurred on both drugs. 
 

i will do the notes for 4days. No problem. 
 

Doctor Healy is in Canada now. He has responded to me by email. He told me to stop all Pysciatrict  drugs “he said they have poisoned me” before the Ven. I was just scared to come off Vort without a taper. 

 

 

[Alan1234]

28 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Apparently, it might be water soluble.  Scroll down through this post to see how to dissolve the pill in water:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/272-tips-for-tapering-off-effexor-and-effexor-xr-venlafaxine/

 

If you end up with a gel like glue, then you have at type of tablet in those gel caps that is not soluble in water.  Why don’t you try it with one today and see what happens so that you will know.  If you cannot dissolve them, you will need to see your doctor to get the type of Venlafaxine that has many tiny beads inside.  You can count beads to get 1/2 a dose.

 

We don’t know if your increased akathisia is from quitting Vortiotexitine, but your new symptoms are very worrying, and are signs of an adverse reaction.  Please call your doctor today and tell him about the muscle issues, and ask for Venlafaxine with beads inside.

 

SA, does anyone know what kind of Venlafaxine — manufacturer’s name — has beads?

 

This is risky, but you could stop taking Ven for a couple of days and see if the muscle contractions stop.   

 

I’ve called my Doctors and asked for Venlafaxine in beads. They say I have to call back tomorrow morning.

 

i agree with you. I need to taper off. I will reduce the dose to 6mg tomorrow.

I must be super sensitive to these meds with all my symptoms. The fact such low doses took my SI away so quickly possibly also supports this. I will reduce to 6mg and take symptom dairy for next 4days. It can be reassessed then. Hopefully the physical sides will subside. I just need to be careful I don’t come off too quick because of the SI that is all.