rmce72a: Effexor withdrawal with Prozac bridge

[rmce72a]

Yes, MSG seems to be the "secret sauce" for canned and prepared foods. What amazes me is that things such as broccoli, which is such a healthy food, is also high in glutamate. I am down to about 10 things I can eat these days!

[Catina7]

2 hours ago, rmce72a said:

It seems that MSG (and a lot of other things) excite the glutamate receptors in the brain which anxiety-riddled people don't need!

Well now, you have taught me something today!  I am going to do more reading about glutamate receptors and what types of food to avoid.  Thank you!  I hope you're hanging in there as best as you can, just like we all are doing.  We all need each other!  xo

[rmce72a]

Hi Catina! I had planned to message you tonight. I am so glad to hear from you. Yes, I was really surprised to read some of that too. I was Googling to find out if there were any foods I could safely try since it seems that every food or supplement I try seems to increase my anxiety. I eat the same thing every single day because any time I try something else I pay for it with increased anxiety. I was trying to figure all that out, and apparently what we eat even affects neurotransmitters. Who knew?

 

I did read that brown rice is supposed to be calming. Someone here even said she eats sprouted brown rice which helps her, so I thought I'd give it a try but it's hard to find in stores. She orders it from Amazon. Anyway, I did buy some brown rice crackers that don't contain anything else but salt. They were actually pretty tasty. The next day, however, I had a nasty wave which probably was not caused by the brown rice, but I'm going to hold off eating them until I feel better. 

 

I am just so sensitive to all foods, and I know I'm not getting proper nutrition which probably makes WD and healing even more difficult. It's a vicious circle. I need the fresh fruits and a variety of vegetables, but I can't tolerate anything but frozen green beans. A fresh orange sounds so good. I love oranges. (and apples, pears, bananas) Oh well. A small sacrifice in the grand scheme of this ordeal. May someday I will be able to enjoy them again.

 

Let me know what you think when you are able to do some research. 

 

I hope today has been one of your better days. I've had some symptoms struggles today, as usual, but I am trying very hard to just roll with them. It's just so hard not to let this situation swallow up everything else in our lives. Thinking of you and sending healing hugs. xo Rebecca

[Catina7]

Hope this helps you!

 

How to make GABA rice at home:  https://www.yangsnourishingkitchen.com/making-gaba-rice-at-home/

 

P.S.  I'm struggling with my immense anxiety and a damaged nervous system, but I'm hanging in there okay.  Last night before bed I tried that pose where you put your legs up against the wall for a while.  I swear it seemed to help me calm down a bit and sleep a little better.  I think someone sent you a video about it before.  Hope it helps you as well!  xo

 

[rmce72a]

Yesterday was a special day. For the first time in nearly four years, my symptoms were minimal, except for tinnitus and a little tension, of course. It was the first day in as long as I can remember when I felt pretty much like the old me. It was glorious. I cleaned the potties, did a load of laundry, emptied the dishwasher, ordered a new range hood, and counted beads. I even contemplated my next micro taper. 

 

I woke up this morning, and everything has returned. I have strong palpitations, upset stomach, ear pressure, loud tinnitus, and nervousness. I ate exactly what I ate the night before and took my Effexor on time, yet here I am. Oh well. It was great while it lasted. At least that small glimpse of a real life is helping me face this wave knowing that better days may be waiting for me down the road.  I did get some chamomile tea bags to try. Anyone drink chamomile tea?

 

Hope anyone reading this is in a lovely window. xo Rebecca

[Fifree]

I’m so glad to hear you got a window Rebecca! It’s amazing how fun household chores can feel after you’ve been unable to function for a while. I hope you get another one soon and for longer. 
 

re tea, I mostly drink rooibos tea which is caffeine free.  It’s an acquired taste but it approximates regular black tea well enough for me. 

[Soup]

How wonderful to have a day of some normalcy thanks so much for sharing as it gives me hope to hear of these hopeful days . I hope another returns soon . 

[Catina7]

I've been wondering how you've been doing.  Your glorious window is a sign that you are on your way to healing!  May it infuse you with hope and perseverance to keep fighting each and every day, despite any temporary setbacks.  Your example encourages me to keep plugging along! 

 

I do drink Chamomile tea sometimes.  It's very good and calming.  🥰

[rmce72a]

Hello Catina. I am so glad to hear from you. Thank you for the words of encouragement. As always, I appreciate your and everyone's responses so much. It helps with the loneliness of this journey, and it is a lonely journey, isn't it?

 

I try hard not to show how terrible I am feeling most days even to my husband who is with me every day. He is sympathetic but does have even a remote idea of what we are all going through. He says that he knows I don't feel well, but he doesn't know what to do. I get that. I don't know what to do either most days. Just because I am suffering through most days doesn't mean that he should. 

 

How are you, my dear? Are you having any windows at all. I hope so. The anxiety part of this is the most terrifying part, I think. It's just so sad to live each day in fear. 

 

By the way, does your chamomile tea stir up and sensitivities or stomach problems? I like to drink a warm mug of something in the evening. I would prefer hot chocolate or Irish coffee :), but I have been drinking hot water. 

 

AGain, thank you for your comments. Take care. xo Rebecca

[Shep]

9 hours ago, rmce72a said:

By the way, does your chamomile tea stir up and sensitivities or stomach problems? I like to drink a warm mug of something in the evening. I would prefer hot chocolate or Irish coffee :), but I have been drinking hot water. 

 

Sharing some information on teas:

 

Herbal teas: Camomile, ginger, mint, etc. What helps you?

 

Rmce, thank you for sharing your window with us. Please be sure you don't overdo it during windows. It's really hard not to - when we have periods of feeling well, we try to get a lot of stuff done, knowing we won't feel like it when the next wave comes. But make sure you're have some down time when a window comes. It's okay to rest during windows. You deserve to enjoy the windows. 

[Catina7]

Yes, it can feel lonely, but at least we have this forum where we can see that others are going through similar things.  My husband is sympathetic and supportive too, but it's hard for people to actually know what we're going through.  Hopefully you'll get to enjoy more windows as time goes on.  I haven't had any "windows" where I feel completely normal yet.  I hope it's coming soon!

 

I don't have any GI issues or food sensitivities, just the extreme anxiety, so the Chamomile tea doesn't affect me one way or the other.  I hope you tolerate it alright and find other things that agree with you. 🙂

 

[Catina7]

Hi there!  I've been thinking about you.  I'm not sure if you've seen these posts before, but if not I hope they help you to endure what you're going through.  No matter where we are in this journey, these principles can help us all.  I have found them to be so comforting.  When you click on it, make sure to scroll up to the top to start at #1.  Sending you BIG HUGS!!!

 

 

[rmce72a]

My situation is going from bad to worse. Following my one good day in early March, my symptoms are getting worse and worse. I know I am totally unstable, but I just don't know what to do. I have counted beads to taper starting tonight from 73 to 72.9 per BrassMonkey's advice about tapering from poopout. BUT, I don't think this is from poopout. As I have explained, I think my symptoms for the past 3 years are from abrupt, no titrating switches from Effexor to Cymbalta and back to Effexor in 2019. I just don't know what to do. Alto?

[Vasherr]

Getting worse with holding sounds like Brassmonkey's description of poopout

[Catina7]

5 hours ago, rmce72a said:

My situation is going from bad to worse. Following my one good day in early March, my symptoms are getting worse and worse. I know I am totally unstable, but I just don't know what to do. I have counted beads to taper starting tonight from 73 to 72.9 per BrassMonkey's advice about tapering from poopout. BUT, I don't think this is from poopout. As I have explained, I think my symptoms for the past 3 years are from abrupt, no titrating switches from Effexor to Cymbalta and back to Effexor in 2019. I just don't know what to do. Alto?

 

I'm sorry that you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I do know that the window of relief you had shows that your brain is trying to heal.  Sometimes it can take a long time for healing to occur, but I know that it can happen.  I am here whenever you need me.  Try to keep hanging in there and finding ways to relieve your symptoms as much as you can.  Have you sought out an acupuncturist yet?  

 

I know you want to know whether you should keep titrating down or not.  I wish I had the correct answer for you.  Maybe tag one of the mods so they can be alerted to your question.

[rmce72a]

@alto @shep 

My situation is going from bad to worse. Following my one good day in early March, my symptoms are getting worse and worse. I know I am totally unstable, but I just don't know what to do. I have counted beads to taper starting tonight from 73 to 72.9 per BrassMonkey's advice about tapering from poopout. BUT, I don't think this is from poopout. As I have explained, I think my symptoms for the past 3 years are from abrupt, no titrating switches from Effexor to Cymbalta and back to Effexor in 2019. I just don't know what to do. Alto?

[Catina7]

21 minutes ago, rmce72a said:

@alto @shep 

My situation is going from bad to worse. Following my one good day in early March, my symptoms are getting worse and worse. I know I am totally unstable, but I just don't know what to do. I have counted beads to taper starting tonight from 73 to 72.9 per BrassMonkey's advice about tapering from poopout. BUT, I don't think this is from poopout. As I have explained, I think my symptoms for the past 3 years are from abrupt, no titrating switches from Effexor to Cymbalta and back to Effexor in 2019. I just don't know what to do. Alto?

@Altostrata @Shep  

[rmce72a]

@Altostrata @Shep I have a follow up question for you about my situation and bead counting. I save all beads I remove in individual packets I make from post its labelled with the dosage count for the date I removed them.  If I count beads for a day and calculate the dose per bead in that capsule, but the dose is, say, 72.85 when I want to be at 72.95, can I use a bead or two for another day's capsule at a different bead dose to arrive at a dose closer to 92.5?

 

With bead counting, my dose is never exactly what it was the preceding day. Alto, I know you have said that these differences shouldn't make a difference. But I would like to be able to stay as consistent as I can. I just don't know if it is advisable to use beads from different capsules to arrive at a dose. By the way, all beads are from capsules in the same prescription refill. I hope this makes sense.

 

I am desperately trying to maintain consistency in everything to help my unstable CNS as much as I can while still doing a tiny taper as explained by Brass Monkey. God this is so hard. I am doing my best to accept, distract myself, practice the coping skills I have learned here, and patiently hold and gang on when needed. Thank you for your help and guidance.

[Shep]

@rmce72a You may find this thread helpful:

 

Counting beads in a capsule versus weighing

[Catina7]

9 hours ago, rmce72a said:

I am doing my best to accept, distract myself, practice the coping skills I have learned here, and patiently hold and gang on when needed.

 

That's great that you are doing all these things because having numerous and useful coping skills is what's going to help you endure.  Your brain is just scrambling to find some stability and that can take time.  You are strong....you can fight this thing...I have confidence in you!!! 🙂

[Altostrata]

@rmce72a I cannot see how your symptoms are related to your current tapering. As I suggested before, you may have developed a medical condition causing your symptoms. This suggests food sensitivities, such as histamine intolerance:

 

On 3/6/2023 at 4:36 PM, rmce72a said:

I was Googling to find out if there were any foods I could safely try since it seems that every food or supplement I try seems to increase my anxiety. I eat the same thing every single day because any time I try something else I pay for it with increased anxiety.

 

Please disregard supplement, food, or diet claims that they balance or correct neurotransmitters, they are hooey. You manage histamine intolerance with a low-histamine diet.

[rmce72a]

Saw the psych today that my PCP sent me to for guidance re: Effexor WD. Psych said in 22 years helping patients in WD, he has never seen anyone with WD symptoms as severe or long lasting as mine. Once again, he suggested BusPar (1/2 of lowest 5MG dose in the morning). He said he knows I do not want to add meds, but otherwise, he isn't sure how I will be able to taper. I know SA is for getting off meds, which is my goal, but when a taper of 1/4 of 1 percent per month is too much and never stabilizing, I'm wondering about it. Of course, I DO NOT want to add meds.

 

Don't misunderstand. I am in for the long haul and I don't expect it to be easy, but when I can't even eat a bowl of oatmeal without an anxiety attack, it's a problem.

 

Could I please have some feedback, and please don't condemn me. @Altostrata @Shep

[Altostrata]

I have no idea if buspirone or anything else this psychiatrist might prescribe for you  will have any benefit.

[rmce72a]

@Altostrata @Shep

 

 Just FYI Here is what my symptoms journal looks like for recent weeks:

 Symptoms intensity scale 5 = bearable   7 = difficult    9 = miserable

 

2/21   73.09  sym 5    2/22  73.05  sym  5         2/23  73.18  sym 9

2/24  73.15  sym 7      2/25  73.07  sym 7         2/26  73.03   sym 5

2/27 73.14   sym  9     2/28  73.09  sym 9+      3/1  73.02   sym 7

3/2   73.07  sym  7      3/3   73.10   sym 5          3/4  73.11   sym  7

3/5    73.08   sym 9++  3/6   73.00  sym  9        3/7   73.06   sym 5 

The past 2 weeks my doses have been from 73.00 to 72.93 with symptoms getting worse the past few days. I have been below 73 before without a string of miserable days. Should I just assume it's a wave and keep my dose at 72.90? I really hate to updose again, because it didn't make much difference before. Could going from 73.08 to 72.95 make that much difference, or is it normal waves?

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

I do not know what "sym 9+" or "very ill" means, I need to know exactly what symptoms occurred at what time. That would be the daily symptom notes with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

 

As I said earlier, I question whether your symptoms are related to drug withdrawal at all. You might look into mast cell syndrome or histamine intolerance.

 

 

[Shep]

15 hours ago, rmce72a said:

Saw the psych today that my PCP sent me to for guidance re: Effexor WD. Psych said in 22 years helping patients in WD, he has never seen anyone with WD symptoms as severe or long lasting as mine. Once again, he suggested BusPar (1/2 of lowest 5MG dose in the morning)

 

I'm sure he HAS seen severe withdrawal but didn't make the connections (and likely mis-diagnosed people with a "severe mental illness" after they started having problems with their drugs). His judgement isn't that good - he just recommended you take two drugs with a MAJOR drug interaction:

 

Drug Interaction Report - Buspar and Effexor

 

And here are the side effects of Buspar to add to the potential major drug interactions: 

 

Quote

 

Common BuSpar side effects may include:

• headache;
• dizziness, drowsiness;
• sleep problems (insomnia);
• nausea, upset stomach; or
• feeling nervous or excited.

 

As Alto mentioned, working with your diet can really help. At this point, you may be dealing with nutritional deficiencies, so if you can find healthy foods that you tolerate, you'll feel better. Many of us end up with IBS, histamine intolerance, etc. while going through this. Keeping a food journal can be very helpful. 

 

If you've had the usual bloodwork, etc. to rule out any other illness, working with diet, going for a walk in the sun every day, resting, etc. can help. Unfortunately, there really isn't a magic pill or remedy that we know of to fix withdrawal. We all wish there was. 

[Catina7]

I've been thinking about you.  How have you been doing?  I hope you're continuing to hang in there as best as you can.

 

-Catina ❤️

[LarryS]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:28 AM, rmce72a said:

These symptoms have been worse than usual for a few days. I wonder if going back up above 73 to 73.16 and 73.18  has anything to do with it. If so, when can I drop below 73.1 to, say 72.95  or so without making things worse?

 

I was reading about the importance of stabilizing before proceeding with a taper, but how do I do that? The info on stabilization doesn't seem to fit my situation. Is counting beads and taking 73.15 one and and 73.0 the next destabilizing me? I can't avoid that in bead counting. I am losing hope, and being optimistic and distraction aren't working because the physical/emotional symptoms are so intense. Suggestions? Thank you so much. xo Rebecca

 

 

Hi @rmce72a

 

I have been reading all your posts from the very beginning over these past few weeks.  I have been wondering what I could say to be of some help or encouragement.  I came across this post of yours, and I think I now have something to contribute to your thoughts about the small variations that you are perceiving as significant.

 

As you may already know, I have had a career in engineering.  I recall a professor discussing the significance of our calculations.  Engineers utilize mathematical formulas to design many of the physical structural elements that you may see.  Most mathematical formulas utilize "constants" in those formulas.  I know that I may be getting too technical in trying to explain what I am trying to convey to you, but I will do my best to not get too deep into terminology.  

 

I believe you are weighing the contents of your pills.  This method is best in the beginning when you have 3 to 4 different sized beads in the pills.  I recommend that you weigh the entire contents of 5 pills to start your calculations in order to find a "constant".  This can be done over time at the start of opening a new pill.  Or you could take 5 pills and do this all at one time, being sure to save the contents into a safe secure container.  Record the total weight of each pill.  

 

If you are utilizing, for example, a 75 - milligram active ingredient type pill then you would utilize this fact to do a simple mathematical averaging that you can rely on during the time you will spend tapering.  It has been stated elsewhere on this website that pill manufacturers are allowed significant variation of total pill weight due to the processes used in creating the pills.  It is recognized that due to current technology limitations. variation between pills is inevitable.  Therefore, the best we can do is to utilize an average of multiple pills.

 

The next step would be to add each of the 5 pills total weight together for a total weight of 5 pills.  Then take the total weight of 5 pills and divide this by 5 to obtain the average weight of a single pill.  Then divide the average weight of a 75 - milligram active ingredient pill by 75 to obtain the "constant" - "average weight per 1 milligram of active ingredient."

 

For example, let's say you want to drop 10% from a current dose of 73.0 milligrams active ingredient.

 

73.0 mg active ingredient X 0.9 = 65.7 mg active ingredient

 

I do not know what your average pill weight will be, but for example it will weigh somewhat more than the label states of 75 mg active ingredient.  Let me just pick a number to demonstrate.  Let us assume an average pill weight of 80.0 mg.

 

80.0 mg total average weight/ 75 mg active ingredient = 1.066 mg per 1 mg active ingredient.

 

You are looking to obtain 65.7 mg active ingredient each day.  The total weight on the scale to obtain this value would be:  1.066 X 65.7 mg active ingredient = 70.0 mg total weight on your scale.

 

Due to the variation in pill weights, I do not believe there is significance beyond a tenth of a milligram.  I think you should not be concerned about a hundredth of a milligram in calculations.  The "constant" is the exception and may be noted out to the hundredth or thousands place.  Round your calculations to the nearest 10th and be done with it.  I highly doubt that we can feel a difference in even a 0.1 milligram difference in drugs.  I could be wrong, just my perspective view.

 

Since our percentage reductions are done in "milligrams of active ingredient" the "constant" that you have created for your particular brand will be used repeatedly.  Should you be forced to change brands, then you would need to find a new average.

 

I will also enclose the following link for further information and discussion on the subject.

 

Using a scale to weigh and measure doses - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

 

If you have questions, don't hesitate to tag me in this your introduction blog.

 

Also, a virtual hug for you.  Take care.

 

Larry

[LarryS]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:10 PM, rmce72a said:

Jan 2023 -Tried dropping to 72.5 but symptoms worsened

Upped dose to 73.0-73.15 (vary because of bead counts in each capsule)

 

On 2/28/2023 at 11:28 AM, rmce72a said:

really need some guidance about what to do next with my taper. Things are going from bad to worse. Should I stay at 73.17 tonight or drop to 72.94 or so? Without being more specific, feel like I am barely hanging on.

 

On 2/28/2023 at 7:10 PM, rmce72a said:

My question: How do I proceed? Is this a permanent state for me or is there a way out? If I have been in protracted withdrawal, have I been there for the past 3 years? Why am I having such severe symptoms even though I am still taking Effexor?

 

On 3/1/2023 at 4:05 PM, rmce72a said:

I have never been a whiner when I was sick. I just dealt with it as part of life knowing I would feel better pretty soon. But this! This is entirely different. The symptoms come from nowhere and just hit unexpectedly and go on and on

 

Hello @rmce72a 

I know you and others like @FindRest are having a struggle with using brand name Effexor extended-release capsules which have about four (4) sizes of beads in the capsule per FindRest signature.  Pfizer has made it very difficult for people to get off their drug.  They do not want you to stop taking the drug because they like the money you give them.  I will try to help you by giving you a few ideas to think over.

 

First, I will share what has worked for me.  I have always taken Venlafaxine which is the generic of Effexor.  There is more than one manufacture who makes Venlafaxine.  I was fortunate enough to be given Venlafaxine distributed by "Aurobindo Pharma USA, Inc.  279 Princeton-Hightstown Road, East Windsor, NJ 08520.  Made in India.  Code: TS/DRUGS/19/1993.  I didn't ask for it, but I'm sure glad it was given to me.

 

I started my Venlafaxine taper June 6, 2018.  It was not until August 25, 2020, that I had first received a 75 mg capsule distributed by Aurobindo Pharma USA.  From February 2021 through May 2021, every time I opened a capsule, I would count the number of beads in the capsule.  Over time I counted the beads in 10 capsules.   Every bead was the same size, and very small.   I calculated the average number of beads from those 10 capsules.  The average was 200 beads per capsule.  The number of beads ranged from 194 to 208.  75 milligrams active ingredient divided by 200 beads gave me 0.375 milligrams per bead.  I have been able to utilize that "constant" value ever since.  

 

One alternative available to you would be to switch to venlafaxine by this distributer.  But there may be risks.  I have been utilizing the pills from a 90-count bottle received 11/18/2019.  Things change.  I will leave it to you for now to do the research to find out if the same product exists.

 

There is information on S.A. that describes how to transition from one drug to another.  I can perhaps find it another day if you can't find it.

 

I will now address a method for utilizing name brand Effexor.  It can work fairly well in the beginning at higher doses but has its limitations at low doses.

 

The method is to weigh out each dose you take.  I know others have utilized this method on S.A.  Yes, it is work.  Yes, it takes patience.  But it can be done.  Again, the topic exists here on S.A.  For now, I will allow you the opportunity to go find it.  How else are you going to learn?

 

To understand the disadvantages of using name brand Effexor at low doses, I want you to read @mammaP 

 

It was a slow difficult struggle, but a success story in the end.

 

Professor LarryS has given you an assignment.  Go forth and learn.

 

I'm here to guide and help you if I possibly can.  Don't hesitate to tag me with questions.

 

 

 

[Catina7]

Hi!!!  How have you been doing?  I miss hearing from you!  ❤️

[Fifree]

Hi @rmce72a. I just popped around to see how you are doing and if you've had any improvement. We'd love to see an update.

 

Hang in there and big hugs to you.

 

xxx