Jump to content

Hypersensitivity and Kindling


Shep

Recommended Posts

  • 1 month later...

Is it possible to stabilize kindling by holding? I have severe withdrawal symptoms and severe adverse symptoms at the same time. 

2008: start Lexapro 10 mg which is quickly upped to 20 mg. 2008:2013 try at least four individual times to get off Lexapro, never get lower than 5mg, settle at 15 mg. 2015: again, attempt to get off Lexapro and get to 5 mg. After 6 months, feel i'm stabilizing but go back on a higher dose because of one stressful event. 2016: go to 20 mg from 15 mg due to work stresses, hit severe tolerance for the first time and become very suicidal. 2016-2017: try viibryd and cymbata in an attempt to feel better. Also add Lamictal 150 at some point. 2017: eventually land on paxil 37.5 and Lamictal 150. January 2018: cut paxil to 25. April-July 2018: reduce Lamictal in 50 mg increments till im off August. 2018: reduce paxil to 20 mg. december 2018: dropped Paxil to 18 mg, SEVERE CRASH. March updosed to 20 mg April 11: dropped to 19.4 mg due to akathsia (still experiencing akathsia symptoms from updose) April 20: 19 mg Paxil May 4: 18.7 Paxil July 5: 18.2 July 12: 17.8 Aug 19: 17.5 Aug 26: 17.3 Oct 20: 17.1 Nov 3: 16.9, 8/17/20: 16.6 after nine month hold, 8/24/20: 16.4, 8/31/20:16.2, 9/14/2020: 16.0, 9/21/20: 15.8, 9/28/20: 15.6, 10/19/20:15.4, 10/26/20: 15.2, 11/2/20: 15.1, 11/7/20: 14.8, 3/6/2-: 14.5, 3/20/20: 14.3, 4/3/20: 13.9, 4/10/2021: 13.7. 4/21/21: 13.5, 5/5/2021: 13.1, 12.2 8/12/2021 (slowly microtapered to this number. I just can’t remember the exact dates), 11.8 9/6/2021, 11.6 9/13/21, 11.2 9/27/21, 11.1 9/30/21.....11/5/21 switched to 10 mg tablet. I am holding to stabilize for the foreseeable future. 3/25/22: 9.4, 5/6/22: 9.0, 5/30/22: 8.25, 6/7/22: 8.1, 7/722: 7.65, 8/16/22: 7.39, 9/22/22: 6.91, 10/1/22: 6.78

Medication signature.docx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator Emeritus
On 10/9/2022 at 9:03 PM, Adili13 said:

Is it possible to stabilize kindling by holding? I have severe withdrawal symptoms and severe adverse symptoms at the same time. 

 

If you're having adverse reactions that are more severe than withdrawal, than holding may not be the best answer.  It's rare this site recommends tapering while unstable, but severe adverse reactions are an exception to this rule. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Shep said:

 

If you're having adverse reactions that are more severe than withdrawal, than holding may not be the best answer.  It's rare this site recommends tapering while unstable, but severe adverse reactions are an exception to this rule. 

I’d say they’re both incredibly severe but wd might be more severe. So hard to know what to do. I feel so hopeless. Thanks for your reply. 

2008: start Lexapro 10 mg which is quickly upped to 20 mg. 2008:2013 try at least four individual times to get off Lexapro, never get lower than 5mg, settle at 15 mg. 2015: again, attempt to get off Lexapro and get to 5 mg. After 6 months, feel i'm stabilizing but go back on a higher dose because of one stressful event. 2016: go to 20 mg from 15 mg due to work stresses, hit severe tolerance for the first time and become very suicidal. 2016-2017: try viibryd and cymbata in an attempt to feel better. Also add Lamictal 150 at some point. 2017: eventually land on paxil 37.5 and Lamictal 150. January 2018: cut paxil to 25. April-July 2018: reduce Lamictal in 50 mg increments till im off August. 2018: reduce paxil to 20 mg. december 2018: dropped Paxil to 18 mg, SEVERE CRASH. March updosed to 20 mg April 11: dropped to 19.4 mg due to akathsia (still experiencing akathsia symptoms from updose) April 20: 19 mg Paxil May 4: 18.7 Paxil July 5: 18.2 July 12: 17.8 Aug 19: 17.5 Aug 26: 17.3 Oct 20: 17.1 Nov 3: 16.9, 8/17/20: 16.6 after nine month hold, 8/24/20: 16.4, 8/31/20:16.2, 9/14/2020: 16.0, 9/21/20: 15.8, 9/28/20: 15.6, 10/19/20:15.4, 10/26/20: 15.2, 11/2/20: 15.1, 11/7/20: 14.8, 3/6/2-: 14.5, 3/20/20: 14.3, 4/3/20: 13.9, 4/10/2021: 13.7. 4/21/21: 13.5, 5/5/2021: 13.1, 12.2 8/12/2021 (slowly microtapered to this number. I just can’t remember the exact dates), 11.8 9/6/2021, 11.6 9/13/21, 11.2 9/27/21, 11.1 9/30/21.....11/5/21 switched to 10 mg tablet. I am holding to stabilize for the foreseeable future. 3/25/22: 9.4, 5/6/22: 9.0, 5/30/22: 8.25, 6/7/22: 8.1, 7/722: 7.65, 8/16/22: 7.39, 9/22/22: 6.91, 10/1/22: 6.78

Medication signature.docx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Does anyone know if the kindling effect is permanent for antidepressants? A lot of papers I've read say it is permanent but I have seen some people on reddit say that people recover in 1 to 2 years. A lot of websites say that kindling related specifically to alcohol withdrawals is permanent but I think that might be to just discourage alcoholics from drinking again as many benzo websites and reddit threads say that people recover. I took an Advil (ibuprofen) a week ago and felt horrible 2 days after so that would really suck if this was permanent...

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added common drug name

Lexapro 20 mg 2015-2020. Tapered down and currently at 5 mg 

Wellbutrin 2019 for 3 months. Tapered off completely

Mirtazapine 30 mg 2019-2021. Tapered off completely

Rexulti 0.5 mg 2020-2021 Tapered down to 0.25 mg

Viibryd 2021 Tapered off completely

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mentor
19 hours ago, labrat15 said:

Does anyone know if the kindling effect is permanent for antidepressants? A lot of papers I've read say it is permanent but I have seen some people on reddit say that people recover in 1 to 2 years. A lot of websites say that kindling related specifically to alcohol withdrawals is permanent but I think that might be to just discourage alcoholics from drinking again as many benzo websites and reddit threads say that people recover. I took an Advil (ibuprofen) a week ago and felt horrible 2 days after so that would really suck if this was permanent...

 

 

 

I don't believe it's permanent but I do think depending on your drug history, your genetics and other factors I might last longer than a year or two

 

I guess I can only speak for myself:
I kindled for sure LOL check out my drug signature, over 40 yrs on all kinds of drugs, many cold switches and CTs, many incredibly high doses as well

I am now 5 yrs off

 

I was not able to tolerate caffeine at all for several years post Zero, but now I can drink coffee and tea and as long as I don't drink it too late in the day or have too much, it doesn't have any huge effect on me

 

Sometimes, though I will have a paradoxical effect: a cup of coffee will make me incredibly SLEEPY LOL

 

so I'm still sensitive to some things, at some times, but overall, my tolerance has improved.


3 years ago I would have been terrified to take a muscle relaxer, for example, for fear of what that might do (they can make you drowsy) Now I can take a very low dose and be ok.

I think I will always opt for little or NO medications as much as is possible but I am relieved to see that I am able to take some things and not have a problem or at least no major problems

 

this is a huge relief as I need knee surgery and in the past, heavy duty pain meds went paradoxical on me, causing the opposite of what they normally do- I would be hyper and unable to sleep, and have no relief from pain at all. I was given oxycodone for gallbladder surgery and was wide awake for 3 days, cleaned my whole house from top to bottom a couple of times, I was so hyper!! 

 

so being able to take a muscle relaxer like flexeril and have it act the way they normally would (making you a little sleepy) is a great sign that I may be able to take haavy duty pain meds when I have my knee replaced

 

 

 

 

  • pysch med history: 1974 @ age 18 to Oct 2017 (approx 43 yrs total) 
  •  Drug list: stelazine, haldol, elavil, lithium, zoloft, celexa, lexapro(doses as high as 40mgs), klonopin, ambien, seroquel(high doses), depakote, zyprexa, lamictal- plus brief trials of dozens of other psych meds over the years
  • started lexapro 2002, dose varied from 20mgs to 40mgs. First attempt to get off it was 2007- WD symptoms were mistaken for "relapse". 
  •  2013 too fast taper down to 5mg but WD forced me back to 20mgs
  •  June of 2105, tapered again too rapidly to 2.5mgs by Dec 2015. Found SA, held at 2.5 mgs til May 2016 when I foolishly "jumped off". felt ok until  Sept, then acute WD hit!!  reinstated at 0.3mgs in Oct. 2106
  • Tapered off to zero by  Oct. 2017 Doing very well. 
  • Nov. 2018 feel 95% healed, age 63 
  • Jan. 2020 feel 100% healed, peaceful and content
  • Dec 2023 Loving life! ❤️ with all it's ups and downs ;) 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was kindled 6 years ago after many drug changes it took me 2-3 years to get through the worst of the symptoms the thing is being in withdrawals when your body is not desensitised it can be progmatic if you taper to fast many people taper slowly and are able to have a smooth transition but for those that are kindled I think it’s always going to be harder no matter how slow you go I have seen people that have healed from kindling but it has taken a long time and they are still very sensitive to a lot of things but there quality of life is much better 

at years 3-4 I felt able to do stuff that I could not have ever done in years 1-2 but I was still very sensitive to many things but I am now at 6 years off and again find myself back in the thick of it maybe I have taken something that has destabilised me again that I didn’t realise I’m not sure what I often wonder how my healing would have been if I hadn’t have been kindled how much smoother would it have been but my drug history and c/t by many a stupid doctor complicated things 

For me I look at this site and see others that have been kindled and they have healed so it gives me that hope 

2001 to jan 2015 Effexor 150 mg 

jan 2015 15 mg mirtazapine 20 mg quetiapine 

feb 2015 quetiapine stopped 

feb 2015 30 mg of citalopram added 

feb 2015 mirtazapine increased to 30 mg 

july 2015 citalopram stopped 

sept 2015 200mg of pregabalin 

jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped

jan 2017 20 mg fluoxetine

march 2017 all meds stopped 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mentor

I have a question I hope someone can answer!!!

 

after reading these two descriptions of the difference between hyper sensitivity and kindling, I am confused LOL

 

I am seeing very little difference between the two

But I guess maybe it's because I don't know what the term "activation" means.

 

My understanding of kindling was that not only are you hypersensitive to the drug you were on and any new ones but that you could also have a paradoxical reaction to any drug. Is this true?

 

 

what does activation mean, please?

 

Edited by Happy2Heal

 

  • pysch med history: 1974 @ age 18 to Oct 2017 (approx 43 yrs total) 
  •  Drug list: stelazine, haldol, elavil, lithium, zoloft, celexa, lexapro(doses as high as 40mgs), klonopin, ambien, seroquel(high doses), depakote, zyprexa, lamictal- plus brief trials of dozens of other psych meds over the years
  • started lexapro 2002, dose varied from 20mgs to 40mgs. First attempt to get off it was 2007- WD symptoms were mistaken for "relapse". 
  •  2013 too fast taper down to 5mg but WD forced me back to 20mgs
  •  June of 2105, tapered again too rapidly to 2.5mgs by Dec 2015. Found SA, held at 2.5 mgs til May 2016 when I foolishly "jumped off". felt ok until  Sept, then acute WD hit!!  reinstated at 0.3mgs in Oct. 2106
  • Tapered off to zero by  Oct. 2017 Doing very well. 
  • Nov. 2018 feel 95% healed, age 63 
  • Jan. 2020 feel 100% healed, peaceful and content
  • Dec 2023 Loving life! ❤️ with all it's ups and downs ;) 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator Emeritus

 

 

21 hours ago, Happy2Heal said:

what does activation mean, please?

 

"Activation" means stimulating - this kind of reaction alerts the nervous system causing a hyper-reaction. This can include paradoxical reactions, as you noted. 

 

21 hours ago, Happy2Heal said:

after reading these two descriptions of the difference between hyper sensitivity and kindling, I am confused LOL

 

This is a difficult subject because the two are very similar. Hypersensitivity comes first. This sets the stage for kindling. Kindling is the reaction to the reintroduction of a drug. 

 

I hope this helps. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I to understand that there is two kinds of kindling only here in the uk there was a article about kindling and depression in which the author states that for people who have more than one depressive episode for every time they have one the brain shows signs of damage  ( which has been shown on scans they state to the frontal lobe ) and for these people they will find that the episodes become more frequent and with a shorter time between bouts the author then went on to say many people who suffer these bouts of depression are un medicated as they choose to deal with it through various means of diets and alternative methods but they go on to say that they believe these people are then more suspect to suffer the kindling effect where the more damage that is done to the brain the more likely to have another spell of depression which for each time they seem to be worse than the episode before 

 

Now I believe I suffered severe kindling from medications as I was given 6 meds over a short period of time let’s say 12 months all the drugs were stopped with no taper only to be replaced with the next but every time I took the next med the side effects would be 10 times worse to the point that every time I took a pill of any sorts my body would react with multiple severe sensations 

 

So does the theory of kindling carry any weight to those that are none medicated my point being if you don’t treat the depression and you just leave it you can get kindled which results in further episodes 

 

on a note the author did go on to say that SSRI medication are used to stop the kindling effect in these sort of people because they increase BNDF in the brain helps people to have less episodes even though we know that SSRI can cause depression 

 

I’m just curious as to what people think as the author says that he believes that if depression is not treated that for every time you have a bout it increases your chances of another bout significantly and the likely hood you will end up kindled 

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added spacing

2001 to jan 2015 Effexor 150 mg 

jan 2015 15 mg mirtazapine 20 mg quetiapine 

feb 2015 quetiapine stopped 

feb 2015 30 mg of citalopram added 

feb 2015 mirtazapine increased to 30 mg 

july 2015 citalopram stopped 

sept 2015 200mg of pregabalin 

jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped

jan 2017 20 mg fluoxetine

march 2017 all meds stopped 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Shep said:

@Terry4949 Please post a link to the article you're posting about. 

Unfortunately I can’t post a link as it was on the radio it was a discussion about the high rates of antidepressants that are being handed out and if they were justified the author on the show was putting his case across that if people who are having serious bouts of depression on a regular basis are not medicated they could be doing more harm than good leaving it untreated especially the serious cases but he did go on to say that he believes that they are given out far to easily by doctors for the wrong reasons when people are being given them for off label treatments he said that there is a huge rise in the uk which has been down to covid as doctors are prescribing them as treatment in which they were not designed for which could lead to a much bigger problem 

2001 to jan 2015 Effexor 150 mg 

jan 2015 15 mg mirtazapine 20 mg quetiapine 

feb 2015 quetiapine stopped 

feb 2015 30 mg of citalopram added 

feb 2015 mirtazapine increased to 30 mg 

july 2015 citalopram stopped 

sept 2015 200mg of pregabalin 

jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped

jan 2017 20 mg fluoxetine

march 2017 all meds stopped 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator Emeritus
17 hours ago, Terry4949 said:

Unfortunately I can’t post a link as it was on the radio it was a discussion about the high rates of antidepressants that are being handed out and if they were justified the author on the show was putting his case across that if people who are having serious bouts of depression on a regular basis are not medicated they could be doing more harm than good leaving it untreated especially the serious cases but he did go on to say that he believes that they are given out far to easily by doctors for the wrong reasons when people are being given them for off label treatments he said that there is a huge rise in the uk which has been down to covid as doctors are prescribing them as treatment in which they were not designed for which could lead to a much bigger problem 

 

This reminded me of something that came out years ago and I found a link to an article:

 

Are doctors shilling for drug companies on public radio?

 

That was 2008. I don't think anything has changed when it comes to this type of corruption. 

 

And they never provide any credible research to back up their claims. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Shep said:

 

This reminded me of something that came out years ago and I found a link to an article:

 

Are doctors shilling for drug companies on public radio?

 

That was 2008. I don't think anything has changed when it comes to this type of corruption. 

 

And they never provide any credible research to back up their claims. 

Just goes to show you what they know I had no history of depression or mental health prior to meds then I took my first two doses of setraline and was bombarded with suicidal thoughts and the urge to kill myself having no previous mental problems so to down play these thing and say they are over blown is just so wrong 

2001 to jan 2015 Effexor 150 mg 

jan 2015 15 mg mirtazapine 20 mg quetiapine 

feb 2015 quetiapine stopped 

feb 2015 30 mg of citalopram added 

feb 2015 mirtazapine increased to 30 mg 

july 2015 citalopram stopped 

sept 2015 200mg of pregabalin 

jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped

jan 2017 20 mg fluoxetine

march 2017 all meds stopped 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Is it possible to fully recover from kindling to a point where you can even enjoy alcohol and consistent high intensity workouts?

 

Ultimately, I initiated a kindled state after reinstatement in what I didnt know was withdrawal. I was 7 weeks off drugs that I had barely taken for long and was not experiencing your standard withdrawal symptoms - more neurological. I went to a neurologist, got blood work etc. Then so happened to come across this website and the concept of kindling over after thinking reinstatement was my only option rather than time. Its a shame. Now ive got to give myself more time again to hopefully reach equilibrium. I miss my workouts. I miss socialising with my friends, especially now I want to explore London with my colleagues. All of that has been taken away from me - if only I didnt try these medications I wouldve been absolutely killing it right now.

 

I mean its incredibly likely that its the drugs but its also baffling that im like this considering I havent been on them for years. I suppose it was the trial and error of different brands in a short space of time, although I dont know why doctors arent aware of the implications of this. Its making me think surely theres something else thats causing these symptoms: out of it feeling, acidic feeling in brain, dizziness, exercise intolerance, sound & light sensisivity. 

 

 

2022:

May 22 : Mirtazapine 15mg for 5 weeks

June 22: taper off mirt onto Citalopram 20mg

Mid-July 22: escitalopram 5mg for 12 days dizziness&zaps -stopped 

Rest of July 22: nothing

August: nothing

September 1st - 15th: nothing

September 16th - : citalopram 20mg awful reaction

October 21st - Citalopram 10mg (felt less bad)

November 4th - Citalopram 5mg

November 11th - Citalopram 2.5mg

November 18th - nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Does kindling only apply to benzos and alcohol? Could lamictal cause kindling? 

Lamictal July 6,2022 -September 2, 2022 started at 25mg and increased 25 mg every two weeks
Buspirone august 29, 2022- September 14 2022

0.5mg Ativan October 22- 2022, November 5, 8, 10, 12-2022, January 12. Feb 4,6,25,27-2023, March 1, 21, 24, 26,27, 28, 29 -202

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mentor
1 hour ago, Atnyxoxo said:

Does kindling only apply to benzos and alcohol? Could lamictal cause kindling? 

 

I don't know specifically about lamictal as it's a bit different from a lot of the other drugs in the way it works (It seems to be some what "safer"...?) but it still should be tapered so to me that suggests that kindling could happen. 


I was on lamictal for a year or so and didn't taper off but then my drs never tapered me off anything, I had cold switches to other drugs.

I did use a tiny bit of lamictal (less than 2mgs a pediatric dose) to help during WD recovery from lexapro and it can go paradoxical. 

 

I don't know if that's a sign that you've kindled though, kindling is still a confusing term for me. 


Kindling does happen on other drugs.

 

I'm pretty sure I kindled on SSRI's

 

I started having paradoxical effects to other medications even before I got off the ADs. 

I know of some people with long term usage histories that have trouble when they need surgery, the drs can't find anything for the post op pain because so many of those drugs go paradoxical on them

that happened to me in 2004,  I was given an opiate drug after gall bladder surgery and it made me super hyper, caused severe insomnia and did nothing for pain. I never used illicit drugs and didn't drink

 

not sure how helpful this info is LOL sorry

 

 

there is a thread about lamictal you might want to do a search for it. 

 

Edited by Happy2Heal

 

  • pysch med history: 1974 @ age 18 to Oct 2017 (approx 43 yrs total) 
  •  Drug list: stelazine, haldol, elavil, lithium, zoloft, celexa, lexapro(doses as high as 40mgs), klonopin, ambien, seroquel(high doses), depakote, zyprexa, lamictal- plus brief trials of dozens of other psych meds over the years
  • started lexapro 2002, dose varied from 20mgs to 40mgs. First attempt to get off it was 2007- WD symptoms were mistaken for "relapse". 
  •  2013 too fast taper down to 5mg but WD forced me back to 20mgs
  •  June of 2105, tapered again too rapidly to 2.5mgs by Dec 2015. Found SA, held at 2.5 mgs til May 2016 when I foolishly "jumped off". felt ok until  Sept, then acute WD hit!!  reinstated at 0.3mgs in Oct. 2106
  • Tapered off to zero by  Oct. 2017 Doing very well. 
  • Nov. 2018 feel 95% healed, age 63 
  • Jan. 2020 feel 100% healed, peaceful and content
  • Dec 2023 Loving life! ❤️ with all it's ups and downs ;) 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

@Shep is kindling damage reversible?

2018 zoloft 

Paroxetine 2018-2021

Olanzapine and trazadone 2021 February to March then cted

2021 April - May Welbutrin & attivan.

2021 june - September zoloft 150mg

2022 March - May rTMS

Attivan from time to time 

2022 Octomber - December brittellix 20mg

2023 January till now brittellix 40mg 

Now at 30mg awaiting to start stabilizing before going down by 10%

Timetable till 0 probably 1 year

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

@stech, yes, like everything else related to nervous system destabilization people heal from this albeit very slowly. 

 

This question has been answered. Please read the whole thread. 

"Nothing so small as a moment is insurmountable, and moments are all that we have. You have survived every trial and tribulation that life has thrown at you up until this very instant. When future troubles come—and they will come—a version of you will be born into that moment that can conquer them, too." - Kevin Koenig 

 

I am not a doctor and this should not be considered medical advice. You can use the information and recommendations provided in whatever way you want and all decisions on your treatment are yours. 

 

In the next few weeks I do not have a lot of capacity to respond to questions. If you need a quick answer pls tag or ask other moderators who may want to be tagged. 

 

Aug  2000 - July 2003 (ct, 4-6 wk wd) , citalopram 20 mg,  xanax prn, wellbutrin for a few months, trazodone prn 

Dec 2004 - July 2018 citalopram 20 mg, xanax prn (rarely used)

Aug 2018 - citalopram 40 mg (self titrated up)

September 2018 - January 2019 tapered citalopram - 40/30/20/10/5 no issues until a week after reaching 0

Feb 2019 0.25 xanax - 0.5/day (3 weeks) over to klonopin 0.25 once a day to manage severe wd

March 6, reinstated citalopram 2.5 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 mg for sleep 2-3 times a week

Apr 1st citalopram 2.0 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 once a week (off by 4/14/19- no tapering)

citalopram (liquid) 4/14/19 -1.8 mg, 5/8/19 - 1.6 mg,  7/27/19 -1.5 mg,  8/15/19 - 1.35, 2/21/21 - 1.1 (smaller drops in between), 6/20/21 - 1.03 mg, 8/7/21- 1.025, 8/11/21 - 1.02, 8/15/21 - 1.015, 9/3/21 - 0.925 (fingers crossed!), 10/8/21 - 0.9, 10/18/21 - 0.875, 12/31/21 - 0.85, 1/7/22 - 0.825, 1/14/22 - 0.8, 1/22/22 - 0.785, 8/18/22 - 0.59, 12/15/2022 - 0.48, 2/15/22 - 0.43, 25/07/23 - 0.25 (mistake), 6/08/23 - 0.33mg

 

Supplements: magnesium citrate and bi-glycinate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 10/11/2022 at 7:48 PM, Shep said:

 

If you're having adverse reactions that are more severe than withdrawal, than holding may not be the best answer.  It's rare this site recommends tapering while unstable, but severe adverse reactions are an exception to this rule. 

I had this exact situation. I had severe adverse impacts for about 8 years before I started tapering. If I had gone by the standard 10% method I don’t think I would have made it. I had to just get off the stuff and hope for the best. I did it over an 8 month period. 

2000 - 2020 - Effexor 250 mg

November 2020 began Nardil 60 mg

reduced Nardil from January 2021 to August 2021 to 0 mg. Drug free. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I’m having trouble knowing how to discern if I’ve been kindled or not. Is it obvious? Or are there varying degrees of severity in kindling? Anyone have a list of symptoms? 

2013-2015: paroxetine, with brief switch to sertraline, and brief combo with bupropion  • 2015: got off all antidepressant meds for approx 9-12 months, felt great 2015: fluoxetine, bad side effects, quit after two weeks 2015: escitalopram 15mg/day Summer 2019: attempted fast taper off escitalopram, reinstated to 15mg/day dose after six weeks • October 16, 2020: begin taper off escitalopram at rate of 1mg per 1 week (sometimes per 2 weeks) using 1mg/ml liquid from pharmacy • Jan 22, 2021: down to 3mg and holding due to worsening of WD symptoms • Feb 4, 2021: updose to 4mg holding • Feb 2021: tapering at 10% every 28 days Jul 2021: begin using microtaper of 2.5% per week Feb 2022: down to 1.43mg and experiencing worsening WD symptoms, updose to 1.45mg and holding • Mar 2022: resume microtaper schedule, lowest dose: 1.34 mg • Mar 2022: extended hold at 1.36 mg •Jul 2022: resume 10% taper • Apr 2-Jun 21, 2023 extended hold at 0.5mg • Jun 9, 2023 massive life stress situation triggered WD wave, Jun 15-16 took 5mg dose, Jun 17-21 back to 0.5mg dose • Jun 22 small updose to 0.58mg • Jul 1-2 tried 2.5mg, suffered adverse affects (anxiety, can’t eat, palpitations, electric jolts in chest) • Jul 1, 2023 - Jan 3, 2024 long hold at 1mg, slowly stabilizing after crash • Jan 4 resume taper  0.98mg Jan 11 0.95mg 

 

Supplements: vitamin D3 with K2, vitamin C, iron, magnesium glycinate, EPA/DHA essentials fish oil, melatonin(as needed)

Other prescription meds: levothyroxine 75 mcg (for hypothyroidism), lorazepam 0.25 to 0.5mg (as needed, which is almost never), zofran 2 to 4mg (as needed) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator Emeritus
5 hours ago, catmama said:

I’m having trouble knowing how to discern if I’ve been kindled or not. Is it obvious? Or are there varying degrees of severity in kindling? Anyone have a list of symptoms? 

 

If you start having upticks in symptoms with drugs, supplements, and / or foods you've previously been able to tolerate, that's a sign that you're dealing with hyper-sensitivity and possibly kindling. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/23/2023 at 7:37 PM, Shep said:

If you start having upticks in symptoms with drugs, supplements, and / or foods you've previously been able to tolerate, that's a sign that you're dealing with hyper-sensitivity and possibly kindling. 


I have noticed clear upticks with some things: caffeine, tea, and dessert wine. With most other stuff I am not sure. I have a pretty healthy diet but...

Any advice on how to interpret upticks, like, how long after eating are we talking about? How do we differentiate from a wave?

Thanks Shep... and sorry for the bombardment, I am really working on my health so I can be there for my family, fully.

 

Bless you.

December 2021 - Metoclopramide started. Akathisia symptoms start; Metoclopramide gets changed to PRN.

March 2022 - Akathisia diagnosed; Metoclopramide stopped; Propranolol 10mg x twice a day. Biperiden PRN (0.5mg to 1mg).

April 2022 - Tandospirone 30mg (10mg 3x day), Quetiapine 25mg (only taken once, immediate adr). Mirtazapine 7.5mg. . Discontinued Propranolol.

May 2022 - Mirtazapine upped to 15mg. Tandospirone cut to 2x 10mg. Low dose Depakote for the month; 100 to 200 to 100 to 0. Mirtazapine cut back to 11.75mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill).
June 2022 - Mirtazapine updose to 15mg. Tandospirone, Biperiden discontinued. Klonopin started PRN (0.5mg). 
September 2022 - Akathisia slowly starts improving, WD/ADR normal sets in in mid September. Hold for 4 months.
March 2023 - Off mirtazapine; no Klonopin for 5 months either! Started quercetin (250mg x 2) to soften the histamine rebound.

May 2023 - Stopped quercetin and changed from magnesium carbonate to oxide - reacted badly. Reverted back to carbonate. 
June 2023 - Added fish oil.
Current regimen: CALM Magnesium (Carbonate into Citrate) 175mg x2; Vitamin E 268mg x2; Fish oil (100mg Omega3; EPA 30mg; DHA 37mg)x2
Intro thread: 
https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27095-portuguesesea-metoclopramide-akathisia-and-mirtazapine/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator Emeritus
5 hours ago, PortugueseSea said:

I have noticed clear upticks with some things: caffeine, tea, and dessert wine. With most other stuff I am not sure. I have a pretty healthy diet but...

Any advice on how to interpret upticks, like, how long after eating are we talking about? How do we differentiate from a wave?

 

If you're ingesting caffeine and wine, you're setting yourself up for waves. I would stop doing that. 

 

Control what you can control and save your energy for handling the waves that are beyond what you can control. 

 

From what we've seen, alcohol is one of the worst things you can consume. We've seen many people have setbacks from it and alcohol is something that can cause kindling, even without psychiatric drugs involved. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Shep said:

If you're ingesting caffeine and wine, you're setting yourself up for waves. I would stop doing that. 


I am happy to announce that I have only had caffeine two times in the last six months, I just wanted to test the waters, I know dumb -_- As far as alcohol is concern I am down to almost 0, unfortunately due to my profession it is very hard to make it actually 0 but I am trying.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Shep said:

Control what you can control and save your energy for handling the waves that are beyond what you can control. 


As always, excellent advice. I have more or less connected waves with low quality/ short sleep. I am sure you have heard of this... Currently I am trying to work on sleep and water intake 😃

Thanks @Shep

December 2021 - Metoclopramide started. Akathisia symptoms start; Metoclopramide gets changed to PRN.

March 2022 - Akathisia diagnosed; Metoclopramide stopped; Propranolol 10mg x twice a day. Biperiden PRN (0.5mg to 1mg).

April 2022 - Tandospirone 30mg (10mg 3x day), Quetiapine 25mg (only taken once, immediate adr). Mirtazapine 7.5mg. . Discontinued Propranolol.

May 2022 - Mirtazapine upped to 15mg. Tandospirone cut to 2x 10mg. Low dose Depakote for the month; 100 to 200 to 100 to 0. Mirtazapine cut back to 11.75mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill).
June 2022 - Mirtazapine updose to 15mg. Tandospirone, Biperiden discontinued. Klonopin started PRN (0.5mg). 
September 2022 - Akathisia slowly starts improving, WD/ADR normal sets in in mid September. Hold for 4 months.
March 2023 - Off mirtazapine; no Klonopin for 5 months either! Started quercetin (250mg x 2) to soften the histamine rebound.

May 2023 - Stopped quercetin and changed from magnesium carbonate to oxide - reacted badly. Reverted back to carbonate. 
June 2023 - Added fish oil.
Current regimen: CALM Magnesium (Carbonate into Citrate) 175mg x2; Vitamin E 268mg x2; Fish oil (100mg Omega3; EPA 30mg; DHA 37mg)x2
Intro thread: 
https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27095-portuguesesea-metoclopramide-akathisia-and-mirtazapine/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...

@Shep can alcohol kindle you when you are taking your regular dose as prescribed? I was stabilized for the last 3 years and thought i was healed enough to drink alcohol. I’m now having acute withdrawal symptoms. I was about to start my taper again :( I’m so upset. I’m having really good windows but the waves are SO bad. 

2010- Celexa 20 mg

2012-lexapro 20mg 

2015- lexapro 30mg

October 2016- tried a too fast taper of lexapro and completely crashed. I reinstated 10mg after 3 months and it worked.

December 2016- started to wean off lexapro with liquid and got off in April of 2018 

got pregnant in June of 2018 and remained off lexapro no withdrawal symptoms.

february 2019- right after I gave birth I started having withdrawal symptoms 

March 2019- reinstated 10mg lexapro, it made me very sick

May 2019- did a successful Prozac bridge and immediately felt better.

currently stabilized on 20mg Prozac 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Yes, as explained elsewhere on the site, alcohol can have a kindling effect. Any drug may cause kindling in a sensitized nervous system.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Hello. Kindling and receptors damage from lots of lexapro reistatements  can be fixed? 

2015 20mg lexapro 

2016 20mg attempt get off one month taper(doctor advice) xtreme terror and anxiety 

2016 again  20mg attempt get off extreme ocd and social fear as withdraws

2018 reduce to 10mg ocd visual snow fatigue couldn't learn

2022 10mg get off again one month taper(doctor advice) had reactions on it and inflammation markers... xtreme protracted  withdraws symptoms 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mentor
14 minutes ago, margaretLO said:

Hello. Kindling and receptors damage from lots of lexapro reistatements  can be fixed? 

yes it can be fixed

I tried to get off lexapro many times and eventually did get off of it and am fine now

 

you will see many others in the Success Stories who have done the same

 

 

 

  • pysch med history: 1974 @ age 18 to Oct 2017 (approx 43 yrs total) 
  •  Drug list: stelazine, haldol, elavil, lithium, zoloft, celexa, lexapro(doses as high as 40mgs), klonopin, ambien, seroquel(high doses), depakote, zyprexa, lamictal- plus brief trials of dozens of other psych meds over the years
  • started lexapro 2002, dose varied from 20mgs to 40mgs. First attempt to get off it was 2007- WD symptoms were mistaken for "relapse". 
  •  2013 too fast taper down to 5mg but WD forced me back to 20mgs
  •  June of 2105, tapered again too rapidly to 2.5mgs by Dec 2015. Found SA, held at 2.5 mgs til May 2016 when I foolishly "jumped off". felt ok until  Sept, then acute WD hit!!  reinstated at 0.3mgs in Oct. 2106
  • Tapered off to zero by  Oct. 2017 Doing very well. 
  • Nov. 2018 feel 95% healed, age 63 
  • Jan. 2020 feel 100% healed, peaceful and content
  • Dec 2023 Loving life! ❤️ with all it's ups and downs ;) 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks but I am 1.5 year off xtremely sick :(

2015 20mg lexapro 

2016 20mg attempt get off one month taper(doctor advice) xtreme terror and anxiety 

2016 again  20mg attempt get off extreme ocd and social fear as withdraws

2018 reduce to 10mg ocd visual snow fatigue couldn't learn

2022 10mg get off again one month taper(doctor advice) had reactions on it and inflammation markers... xtreme protracted  withdraws symptoms 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mentor
6 hours ago, margaretLO said:

Thanks but I am 1.5 year off xtremely sick

 I know, I am very sorry. You got bad advice from your doctor and tapered off too fast.

 

you will get better in time.

 

I too tapered off way too fast, or didn't taper at all, just stopped "Cold Turkey".

I was not well for a long time but I did get better.

 

It is frustrating that it takes so long but you will gradually feel better and better as time goes on

 

 

 

  • pysch med history: 1974 @ age 18 to Oct 2017 (approx 43 yrs total) 
  •  Drug list: stelazine, haldol, elavil, lithium, zoloft, celexa, lexapro(doses as high as 40mgs), klonopin, ambien, seroquel(high doses), depakote, zyprexa, lamictal- plus brief trials of dozens of other psych meds over the years
  • started lexapro 2002, dose varied from 20mgs to 40mgs. First attempt to get off it was 2007- WD symptoms were mistaken for "relapse". 
  •  2013 too fast taper down to 5mg but WD forced me back to 20mgs
  •  June of 2105, tapered again too rapidly to 2.5mgs by Dec 2015. Found SA, held at 2.5 mgs til May 2016 when I foolishly "jumped off". felt ok until  Sept, then acute WD hit!!  reinstated at 0.3mgs in Oct. 2106
  • Tapered off to zero by  Oct. 2017 Doing very well. 
  • Nov. 2018 feel 95% healed, age 63 
  • Jan. 2020 feel 100% healed, peaceful and content
  • Dec 2023 Loving life! ❤️ with all it's ups and downs ;) 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Mentor

Can you kindle yourself from updosing by too large an amount? 

 

I was tapering down 10% a month from 75 mg of Effexor XR.  When I reached about 12 mg my nervous system completely crashed.  I then went back up to 37.5 mg.  Should I have just held it there at 12 mg without increasing my dose by that much?  It's just ever since I've done that I've always felt kind of "activated" and not fully calm.  And when I undergo some kind of stress, I have a severe reaction that just doesn't feel normal and it takes me a very long time to recover.  I don't know if it's just withdrawal effects or if I have been "kindling" this whole entire time.  I don't have any food sensitivities and my gut seems fine.  Sometimes I've been a bit sensitive to supplements if I take too much of something for a long period of time;  it has caused some nausea and headaches.  For the most part, however, it's just this awful anxiety that waxes and wanes and gets super intense with stress.  

 

I plan on continuing my taper in January 2024, but I honestly don't know if it will make things better or much, much worse.  It's so hard to know and predict what will happen.  I do plan on tapering very slowly and by small amounts.

 

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated!  

Disclaimer:  This is not professional medical advice but is based on personal experience only.

1994 - 2017:  Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Zoloft, Seroquel, Buspar, Lorazepam, Xanax, Ambien

2005-present:  Trazodone 50 mg 

2017:  Effexor XR 37.5 >> 75 mg 

2020 (March):  Began 10% monthly taper of Effexor XR (got down to 12 mg)

2021 (September):  Completely crashed.  Went back up to 37.5 mg but in doing so I kindled myself for two years

2024:  1/1:  35.6 mg (-6 beads)  |  2/1:  33.8 mg (-11 beads)  |  3/1:  32.1 mg (-16 beads)

Reasons for starting psych meds:  PMDD/Depression, Generalized Anxiety Disorder

Other medications:  Levothyroxine 75 mcg

Supplements:  I sporadically take Dr. Berg's Electrolyte Powder, Magnesium Glycinate, Fish Oil, & Vitamin D3/K2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator Emeritus
Quote

 

2020 (March):  Began 10% monthly taper of Effexor XR (got down to 12 mg)

2021 (September):  Completely crashed.  Became suicidal from severe anxiety/inner akathisia and insomnia.

Ended up in psych ward for a week.  Went back up to 37.5 mg

 

 

@Catina7 This is what you have in your signature. It looks like you became destabilized from the reductions down to 12 mg, not from the updose to 37.5 mg. If you're feeling better now than you were back then, than your nervous system is showing resiliency, even if there is some hypersensitivity and / or kindling involved, and even with the 37.5 mg dose. That updose was two years ago, so your system has likely made some adjustments to it and the best path forward is a slow taper off the 37.5 mg. You may want to do a micro-taper of maybe 3 or 5% to start to test the waters. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mentor
50 minutes ago, Shep said:

 

@Catina7 This is what you have in your signature. It looks like you became destabilized from the reductions down to 12 mg, not from the updose to 37.5 mg. If you're feeling better now than you were back then, than your nervous system is showing resiliency, even if there is some hypersensitivity and / or kindling involved, and even with the 37.5 mg dose. That updose was two years ago, so your system has likely made some adjustments to it and the best path forward is a slow taper off the 37.5 mg. You may want to do a micro-taper of maybe 3 or 5% to start to test the waters. 

 

That explanation makes sense Shep, thanks for your input.  👍

Disclaimer:  This is not professional medical advice but is based on personal experience only.

1994 - 2017:  Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Zoloft, Seroquel, Buspar, Lorazepam, Xanax, Ambien

2005-present:  Trazodone 50 mg 

2017:  Effexor XR 37.5 >> 75 mg 

2020 (March):  Began 10% monthly taper of Effexor XR (got down to 12 mg)

2021 (September):  Completely crashed.  Went back up to 37.5 mg but in doing so I kindled myself for two years

2024:  1/1:  35.6 mg (-6 beads)  |  2/1:  33.8 mg (-11 beads)  |  3/1:  32.1 mg (-16 beads)

Reasons for starting psych meds:  PMDD/Depression, Generalized Anxiety Disorder

Other medications:  Levothyroxine 75 mcg

Supplements:  I sporadically take Dr. Berg's Electrolyte Powder, Magnesium Glycinate, Fish Oil, & Vitamin D3/K2

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi @Shep and @Altostrata,

 

Is there one article that you would recommend, for me to give to my now receptive GP about Kindling? Thanks again for all you do. 

Lexapro Fast Track/ Cold Turkey

Last dose end Dec 2018 

Tapered 1/2 a daily dose a week (20mg) for  14 weeks, last dose was a 20 mg pill!!  

 3.5 times slower than Psychiatrist recommended, I felt proud of myself!! Little did I know!!!!Got too scared to reinstate because I’d left it too long.

On ADs for 20 years (Prozac approx 10 years/ Pristiq approx 3 years/ Citalipram approx 2 years/. Lexapro a approx  5 years/. Last two years 40mgs Lexapro day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

This talks about kindling in alcohol withdrawal. 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15706729/

 

@Katy398 what are your expectations from the doctor when you show him that article?

 

Omw

Edited by Onmyway

"Nothing so small as a moment is insurmountable, and moments are all that we have. You have survived every trial and tribulation that life has thrown at you up until this very instant. When future troubles come—and they will come—a version of you will be born into that moment that can conquer them, too." - Kevin Koenig 

 

I am not a doctor and this should not be considered medical advice. You can use the information and recommendations provided in whatever way you want and all decisions on your treatment are yours. 

 

In the next few weeks I do not have a lot of capacity to respond to questions. If you need a quick answer pls tag or ask other moderators who may want to be tagged. 

 

Aug  2000 - July 2003 (ct, 4-6 wk wd) , citalopram 20 mg,  xanax prn, wellbutrin for a few months, trazodone prn 

Dec 2004 - July 2018 citalopram 20 mg, xanax prn (rarely used)

Aug 2018 - citalopram 40 mg (self titrated up)

September 2018 - January 2019 tapered citalopram - 40/30/20/10/5 no issues until a week after reaching 0

Feb 2019 0.25 xanax - 0.5/day (3 weeks) over to klonopin 0.25 once a day to manage severe wd

March 6, reinstated citalopram 2.5 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 mg for sleep 2-3 times a week

Apr 1st citalopram 2.0 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 once a week (off by 4/14/19- no tapering)

citalopram (liquid) 4/14/19 -1.8 mg, 5/8/19 - 1.6 mg,  7/27/19 -1.5 mg,  8/15/19 - 1.35, 2/21/21 - 1.1 (smaller drops in between), 6/20/21 - 1.03 mg, 8/7/21- 1.025, 8/11/21 - 1.02, 8/15/21 - 1.015, 9/3/21 - 0.925 (fingers crossed!), 10/8/21 - 0.9, 10/18/21 - 0.875, 12/31/21 - 0.85, 1/7/22 - 0.825, 1/14/22 - 0.8, 1/22/22 - 0.785, 8/18/22 - 0.59, 12/15/2022 - 0.48, 2/15/22 - 0.43, 25/07/23 - 0.25 (mistake), 6/08/23 - 0.33mg

 

Supplements: magnesium citrate and bi-glycinate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy