ShadowDancer: Mirtazapine is giving me so much trouble after being floxed by fluoroquinolones - Tinnitus/Head Buzzing and Insomnia.

[Chompoo]

@Rhernan you can PM me, but I will share my daily diet here so everyone can benefit.

Everyday, I eat:
- 80 - 90 grams of salmon (farmed Atlantic salmon)
- 180 - 190 grams of lean beef (other red meats work well too)
- 200 - 250 grams of lean chicken. I also eat the skin, so I can get collagen to heal my gut lining.
Very important - do NOT grill your meat. It will worsen inflammation in your stomach. The safest way is to eat them is to boil them in water.
- 3-4 dessert spoons of extra virgin olive oil (very important)
- 6-8 dessert spoons of coconut milk. Coconut oil is also very good.  (very important)

- 4-5 inches of celery
- 1 inch ginger
- 2-3 inches of leeks. Sometimes, raw garlic and raw onions. They must be eaten raw or they won't be as effective
- half to one teaspoon of tumeric powder, with a little black pepper for better absorption (don't take too much turmeric and black pepper as they are high oxalate and worsen the oxalate issues Candida gives you)
- sea salt according to taste (refined salt has no antimicrobial powers)
- white pepper according to taste
- Italian herbs according to taste (basil, oregano, thyme). Basically, all spices kill off bad bacteria and Candida. The strongest ones are oregano, cinnamon, thyme and cloves.
- 200 - 300 grams raw or lightly cooked broccoli and cauliflower (very important)
- 100 - 200 grams raw or lightly cooked cabbage, both white and purple (very important)
- 100 - 150 grams carrots or sweet potatoes (very important for eyes and ear issues)
- 75 - 100 grams dark green leafy vegetables. A lot of such vegetables are high oxalate. I'm not sure what dark green leafy vegetables you have in your country but you should check these against the high oxalate list before you eat them.
- green or jasmine tea. Please make sure your water is warm, not hot, because water that is too hot kills off the antioxidant properties of the tea. I usually fill 3/4 of the cup with room temperature water and 1/4 cup with boiling water. 
- 2-3 pills of activated charcoal before I sleep. Activated charcoal is useful for absorbing toxins to reduce symptoms and improve sleep. But these must be taken at least 2 hours before or after food, or they will absorb away your nutrients. Please also take them at least 30 mins before sleep so it is broken down.

Fruits are only to be introduced around 3 months after you start the diet. The sugars in them could worsen your overgrowth of bad bacteria and Candida, and make all your symptoms. But once you have killed off enough, you can reintroduce them. In fact, it is important to reintroduce them, as they feed benefical bacteria in your stomach and assist in your recovery. The best fruits are apples (eat them with the core), mangoes, persimmons, blueberries, black berries, cranberries, bilberries, grapes, apricots, peaches, plums, limes, citrus fruits, pineapples, papayas and bananas. You should start with small doses, as these fruits also have antimicrobial powers, and can kill off more bad bacteria and Candida than your body can handle.

I also take resistant starch in the form of green banana, tapioca and corn starch to increase good bacteria (I rotate among all 3 starches).

To get enough Vitamin D, I sit in the sun. If you are consuming wild salmon, you should be getting enough. But farmed atlantic salmon doesn't provide much. If it is difficult for you to get enough sun, you should take Vitamin D supplements. Start on a low dose like 200 iu and titrate up. It's a bad idea to start at a high dose like 1000 iu, because it kills off too much bad bacteria and Candida at one go. This causes the release of too much toxins, more toxins than your body can detox out. So this will worsen your insomnia (i.e. 0 hour sleep) and all your other symptoms.

Other supplements I take - magnesium citrate (helps with detoxing out toxins) and calcium. Please also start low on calcium and titrate up. It's the same problem with Vitamin D.

It would also be good to check whether your vitamin supplements are made with yeast. A lot of Vitamin Bs and Ds are made with yeast. When your body is actively trying to kill Candida (a yeast), it is often hyper reactive towards other yeasts. This causes histamine issues that could worsen your sleep.

Of all the vitamins/minerals, the ones that are most crucial and you should make the most effort you have enough of are zinc, magnesium, calcium, Vitamin Bs, D and Omega 3. It's ok if you don't have enough of the others, but these are the must-haves.

Lastly, I do intermittent fasting. I eat all 3 meals within an 8 hour window, so I can increase the amount of stomach acid to kill off the bad bacteria and Candida. I also blend my meat after they are cooked, so less stomach acid is used to digest them and more used to kill off microbes. These are optional, they help but they are not crucial.

[ShadowDancer]

What is going on with me.

I have complete sexual dysfunction

Total Insomnia..no sleep drive.

Although I fell asleep last night for a while like for 3 hours.

Fast heartbeat.

Twitching etc.

Why am I still deteriorating?

I believe it was me taking hydroxide after the mirtazapine that set in motion those continuous and physical 24/7 brain zaps that lasted a month, probably killing many neurons in my thalamus.

 

I'm wired all the time and there's no escape.

 

I found some of my notes and I was given cipro many times when I had food poisoning in the past too meaning my body couldn't handle these fluoroquinolones anymore when I had my reaction. But the insomnia I have now is not stemming from that I am almost sure...

 

Helpme...

[Chompoo]

@ShadowDancer I already explained that you need to improve your nutrition to get better.

I fell ill one month after this guy. I improved my diet. He took cannabis for sleep. 13 months later, I'm sleeping 7 - 7.5 hours every night. But his insomnia is getting worse and worse.

There is no magic pill that will instantly cure you. Haven't you learnt by now that the more prescription drugs you take, the worse you get? Up to you to accept this. 

[Rhernan]

6 hours ago, ShadowDancer said:

What is going on with me.

I have complete sexual dysfunction

Total Insomnia..no sleep drive.

Although I fell asleep last night for a while like for 3 hours.

Fast heartbeat.

Twitching etc.

Why am I still deteriorating?

I believe it was me taking hydroxide after the mirtazapine that set in motion those continuous and physical 24/7 brain zaps that lasted a month, probably killing many neurons in my thalamus.

 

I'm wired all the time and there's no escape.

 

I found some of my notes and I was given cipro many times when I had food poisoning in the past too meaning my body couldn't handle these fluoroquinolones anymore when I had my reaction. But the insomnia I have now is not stemming from that I am almost sure...

 

Helpme...

@ShadowDancer

 

Although I do agree with @Chompoo that a change in nutrition is a good idea, I do also think you need to stop trying all kinds of things that you think “might” help and let your brain/CNS and body heal.  I also think maybe cutting back on the supplements, or stopping them all for a bit, could maybe make a difference.  If after awhile you notice no change, then SLOWLY and ONE AT A TIME, with small doses, add them back in.  I know for me, I couldn’t, and apparently still cannot, handle any supplements, herbs, OTC meds (other than Tylenol or Advil) and even teas make me worse.  
 

It is very unfortunate but we are essentially trapped because there is no “magic” pill or remedy or supplement that will take this away.  Time is truly the only healer.  Yes, there are some people that find certain things help them feel better, or lessen some of the symptoms, but when your in acute withdrawal, like you and I, there isn’t much we can do or take that will help.  
 

I know it’s a daily, and sometimes hourly, battle to accept what has happened to us and try our very best to do the minimum to keep alive during this acute time, but basic things are essential.  Drinking plenty of water, eating as healthy as we can, and light exercise like walking (if you can), stretching or even just sitting outside.  There honestly isn’t much else we can do until enough time has passed and our central nervous system heals more.

 

The fact that you got some sleep shows your body does know how to sleep even though we don’t feel we can make it another day.  
 

Maybe try to write down anything positive, or remotely good, that happens each day so you can look back on it and see there were times you’ve made it through even on the worst days…I know I need to do that as well as I tend to focus only on the negatives and how badly I feel.  
 

Remember, just as I have to remind myself hourly as well, that we will heal and time is the only thing right now that we have to depend on.

[ShadowDancer]

Had the most weird night.

Slept for 7 hours, waking up hourly.

Had at least 7 different dreams.

[ShadowDancer]

For the past two nights, i couldn't fall asleep until 2-3 am and when I did it was for 2-3 hours...

This is taking a toll on my sanity, İ really should be locked up at this point...

Yesterday was especially funny because I was yawning and felt sleepy the entire day, yet, at night, couldn't fall asleep..

Anyways..

[ShadowDancer]

A night ago, I slept like a log, my father thought I died. Did wake up maybe twice?

I slept with almost no dreams.

 

This got me encouraged but..

Last night. No sleep at all and when I did fall asleep it was after 4 am and had many many dreams and checking the clock, it seemed I didn't get many hours in.

 

So this past week I had two nights of "normal" sleep with 5 of either no to a few hours of sleep.

 

I don't like this at all...

 

Edit: seems like most of.my dreams revolve around my unresolved trauma issues with people I met in the past..

[ShadowDancer]

Sleep is getting progressively worse.

[OneDayStronger]

Hi @ShadowDancer,

 

You sound exactly like me. From the nights of constant hourly waking to the weird vivid dreams and nights of very minimal sleep…if any. My sleep was getting better a few months ago, but I’m still tapering and now on a very tiny level of Lexapro (0.3). Sleep is now nonexistent and my sanity is waning. The insomnia has lasted for 13 months now. It is by far the worse symptom of withdrawal and it seems never ending. All we can do at this point is ride it out and give up control, although it’s extremely difficult to do.

 

I’m currently trying OCD therapy because I feel like the root cause is my extreme anxiety about not sleeping and I’ve noticed all my thoughts are consumed by it, so I’m going to give it a shot. 

 

Chronic insomnia is absolutely terrible and I wouldn’t wish it upon my worst enemy. Just know you are not alone and I’m sorry you are going through this because I wouldn’t wish it upon my worst enemy. 
 

[Farm24]

On 3/25/2024 at 1:38 AM, ShadowDancer said:

A night ago, I slept like a log, my father thought I died. Did wake up maybe twice?

I slept with almost no dreams.

 

This got me encouraged but..

Last night. No sleep at all and when I did fall asleep it was after 4 am and had many many dreams and checking the clock, it seemed I didn't get many hours in.

 

So this past week I had two nights of "normal" sleep with 5 of either no to a few hours of sleep.

 

I don't like this at all...

 

Edit: seems like most of.my dreams revolve around my unresolved trauma issues with people I met in the past..

Have you checked out Dr Daniel Erichsen on YouTube?  His sleep stuff knowledge does help

[ShadowDancer]

Sleep is totally gone.

I'm a zombie now.

[ShadowDancer]

Attention to anyone who's dealing with this stuff. Don't eat pizza. You'll regret it. It will be bad.

You won't sleep on the nights you eat pizza....

F this.. I want my life back.

[Prozack]

3 hours ago, ShadowDancer said:

Attention to anyone who's dealing with this stuff. Don't eat pizza. You'll regret it. It will be bad.

You won't sleep on the nights you eat pizza....

F this.. I want my life back.

 

In general, you are correct. But what kind of pizza? Does it contain pesticides, plastic, aged (moldy) cheese and so on... Pizza and cheese can contain too much salt which raise blood pressure and interrupt sleeping.

 

Maybe I am silly, but I realize very strong correlation between toxins and WD symptoms.

[ShadowDancer]

32 minutes ago, Prozack said:

 

In general, you are correct. But what kind of pizza? Does it contain pesticides, plastic, aged (moldy) cheese and so on... Pizza and cheese can contain too much salt which raise blood pressure and interrupt sleeping.

 

Maybe I am silly, but I realize very strong correlation between toxins and WD symptoms.

I don't know, it was a stuffy slice. This is the second time I had pizza ever since I got hit by mirtazapine and both times I lost sleep. I don't think it elevated my blood pressure but gave me more energy instead. So ice cream and pizza should be taken off our diet for sure.

[Erimus]

9 hours ago, ShadowDancer said:

Attention to anyone who's dealing with this stuff. Don't eat pizza. You'll regret it. It will be bad.

You won't sleep on the nights you eat pizza....

F this.. I want my life back.

It's likely from the high histamine content of it. Your histamine receptors are in chaos. Histamine plays a huge part in our sleep cycle.

[Rhernan]

Yep, it’s a histamine thing most likely.  Many AD’s and benzos mess with our histamine receptors and consuming high histamine foods/drinks “overfills” our histamine bucket and then sets off reactions such as sleep issues, rashes, headaches, and lots of other things.

 

pizza, tomatoes, aged meats and cheese, deli meats and cheese, kombucha, keifer, spinach, avocados, bananas, strawberries and a few other things I have to avoid like the plague or else I’m sent into bad wds and my sleep takes the biggest hit. I also avoid alcohol, caffeine, excess sugar, processed foods, MSG and even some seafood.

 

I'm sorry you had this reaction but like you, pizza is a big trigger for me.  
 

you'll heal and as you do you’ll be able to add more foods/drinks back in…hang in there.

[Prozack]

It could be histamine. I also don't tolerate things like aged cheese.

 

But it can't explain everything. Why people report having reactions after meal in general? Why they (we) can't tolerate chemicals?

 

@ShadowDancer mentioned ice cream. What will we say now? Dairy and gluten?

 

If I eat regular apple from store, my head will immediately explode.

 

What will we say now? Sugar? From apple?

 

I don't say that histamine is not a thing, but it can't explain everything.

 

[Rhernan]

16 minutes ago, Prozack said:

It could be histamine. I also don't tolerate things like aged cheese.

 

But it can't explain everything. Why people report having reactions after meal in general? Why they (we) can't tolerate chemicals?

 

@ShadowDancer mentioned ice cream. What will we say now? Dairy and gluten?

 

If I eat regular apple from store, my head will immediately explode.

 

What will we say now? Sugar? From apple?

 

I don't say that histamine is not a thing, but it can't explain everything.

 

Yeah I don’t think it’s all histamine or any diet per say. I only know higher histamine foods/beverages  do affect me, but so do other foods/beverages.

 

I honestly think the only thing we can do is eat as well as we can, hydrate and avoid any triggers we can positively note.

 

time is really the only true healer in all of this so as long as your treating your body right that is all we can do.

[Chompoo]

Apple is a powerful fruit. It is:

(1) antimicrobial thanks to its polyphenols
(2) a prebiotic because its pectin fiber feeds beneficial bacterial in the gut
(3) a probiotic because it contains benefial bacteria too

I used to have bad reactions to apples. Then one day, my intolerance to it was over. Now I eat one every day. It helps me improve my sleep.

[Prozack]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:38 AM, Chompoo said:

Apple is a powerful fruit. It is:

(1) antimicrobial thanks to its polyphenols
(2) a prebiotic because its pectin fiber feeds beneficial bacterial in the gut
(3) a probiotic because it contains benefial bacteria too

I used to have bad reactions to apples. Then one day, my intolerance to it was over. Now I eat one every day. It helps me improve my sleep.

 

What kind of apples are you buying? Organic?

[Chompoo]

@Prozack normal apples. It's almost impossible to find organic apples where I live (Thailand).

If you are unable to tolerate any fruits, start small and then work up the amount slowly over many weeks. Up to now, I can only tolerate one quarter of a kiwi fruit and persimmon. But each time I eat these again, I get less reactions. Then when my reactions get down to little or none, I will go up to half a fruit. This is the way I have managed to eat many other antimicrobial things like extra virgin olive oil and green tea.

[ShadowDancer]

The only improvements I have noticed in the past year is in regards to headaches, they are not 10/10 in intensity anymore but close to 2-4/10 now. Funny though, the pain moves around and never is in two places at the same time. It can move to the bridge of my nose and stay there  or the back of the neck or on top of the scalp.

 

Sleep is getting even worse idk how this could be possible this many months out. The vivid dreams are less vivid as in I see or hear things still, but not as clear as before. I got decent sleep for 3 days then it crashed again and I started to get night sweats again. I don't think I get more than an hour or two of broken sleep. I won't last like this without sleep. I'm very suicidal. On the days I can't sleep I'm having 24 hour long panic attacks.

 

I think chamomile tea helps my body relax but even its effects are diminishing even though I take it once a week or something.

[Prozack]

20 hours ago, Chompoo said:

@Prozack normal apples. It's almost impossible to find organic apples where I live (Thailand).

If you are unable to tolerate any fruits, start small and then work up the amount slowly over many weeks. Up to now, I can only tolerate one quarter of a kiwi fruit and persimmon. But each time I eat these again, I get less reactions. Then when my reactions get down to little or none, I will go up to half a fruit. This is the way I have managed to eat many other antimicrobial things like extra virgin olive oil and green tea.

 

The problem is messing up food intolerances with reactions to pesticides and other toxins.

 

Let say wheat. If I eat any random wheat product, I can't breath properly. We could say: "Oh, I can't tolerate gluten." If I eat biodynamic wheat, it doesn't happen.

 

Apple is the same thing. If I buy regular apple in store, my head will explode. If I found it on the street near some home garden, nothing.

[Chompoo]

@Prozack there's nothing but normal apples where I live. At one point in time, they gave me bad sleep and other symptoms. After 5-6 months, I could eat them again. And they started to give me better sleep. Nothing at all to do with pesticides for me.

Wheat is best avoided when you have gut problems like leaky gut / food intolerances.

[Prozack]

6 hours ago, Chompoo said:

@Prozack there's nothing but normal apples where I live. At one point in time, they gave me bad sleep and other symptoms. After 5-6 months, I could eat them again. And they started to give me better sleep. Nothing at all to do with pesticides for me.

Wheat is best avoided when you have gut problems like leaky gut / food intolerances.

 

What about rice?

[Chompoo]

@Prozack brown rice is antimicrobial thanks to the phytopchemicals in it. White rice is high in glucouse that feeds bad bacteria and Candida, but it lacks the phytochemicals that brown rice has. If you are going to eat white rice, you should only eat overnight white rice. This is cooked white rice that is refrigerated overnight and then reheated before you eat it again. This process converts the glucose into resistant starch, which feeds the good bacteria in your gut.

[Prozack]

Did you have rice intolerance in any period?

[Chompoo]

@Prozack at the beginning of WD, I was able to eat a lot of brown rice and oats. Then I overdosed on MSG and went backwards in my recovery. Eating brown rice and oats would give me non-stop sneezing, a constant nasal drip and heart palpitations. So I switched over to white nice.
Then I realised that white rice is bad for me, stopped eating it, and went on a diet of meat, fish, vegetables, fruits and healthy oils.
Then I read that oats, brown rice and overnight white rice /potatoes provide resistant starch that feed good bacteria that will help me in my recovery. These days, I can only eat small amounts of oats / overnight rice/ potatoes. Doing this improves my sleep. But eating too much of them worsen my condition. They give me diarrhea, weight loss, worse sleep and more pain throughout the day.
This is because killing off bad bacteria / candida releases toxins in my body. When I kill off too many at one go, it is more toxin load than my liver can clear. So the uncleared toxins circulate inside me, causing more inflammation and symptoms.
But with time, I know I can increase my intake of resistant starch. This recovery process takes a lot of time, and patience.

[ShadowDancer]

No sleep.

I can't do this.

[Prozack]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:36 AM, Chompoo said:

@Prozack at the beginning of WD, I was able to eat a lot of brown rice and oats. Then I overdosed on MSG and went backwards in my recovery. Eating brown rice and oats would give me non-stop sneezing, a constant nasal drip and heart palpitations. So I switched over to white nice.
Then I realised that white rice is bad for me, stopped eating it, and went on a diet of meat, fish, vegetables, fruits and healthy oils.
Then I read that oats, brown rice and overnight white rice /potatoes provide resistant starch that feed good bacteria that will help me in my recovery. These days, I can only eat small amounts of oats / overnight rice/ potatoes. Doing this improves my sleep. But eating too much of them worsen my condition. They give me diarrhea, weight loss, worse sleep and more pain throughout the day.
This is because killing off bad bacteria / candida releases toxins in my body. When I kill off too many at one go, it is more toxin load than my liver can clear. So the uncleared toxins circulate inside me, causing more inflammation and symptoms.
But with time, I know I can increase my intake of resistant starch. This recovery process takes a lot of time, and patience.

 

So, what is your observation of associations between candida and bad bacteria die off and oat and rice and resistant starch? You mean if you eat too much of them, more die off happens?

[Chompoo]

On 4/21/2024 at 2:40 AM, Prozack said:

 

So, what is your observation of associations between candida and bad bacteria die off and oat and rice and resistant starch? You mean if you eat too much of them, more die off happens?

Good bacteria ferment on resistant starch such as overnight rice and oats to produce short chain fatty acids. These acids do two things: (1) they reduce inflammation in the stomach and this gives you better sleep (2) they kill off bad bacteria and Candida, thereby causing more toxins to be released via die-offs into the body.
Since your liver and kidneys are already struggling a lot from the toxins thrown out by the bad bacteria and Candida as part of their metabolism, they are unable to detox out the toxins from the die-offs if you kill off too many at one go.
Too much toxins circulating in the body causes inflammation, which then leads back to bad sleep and an uptick of other symptoms.
This is why taking a small/moderate amount of resistant starch works better than a big dose, especially when you're heavily infected and suffering from a lot of symptoms.

[Prozack]

@Chompoo Yes, that's theory. But what happened to you?

[Chompoo]

40 minutes ago, Prozack said:

@Chompoo Yes, that's theory. But what happened to you?

I already explained "what happened to me". Reread my comments if you will. This will be my last reply to you.

[Prozack]

On 4/22/2024 at 10:55 PM, Chompoo said:

I already explained "what happened to me". Reread my comments if you will. This will be my last reply to you.

 

Sorry, sorry. I remember. I asked a lot sorry. I was impolite.

[Chompoo]

@Prozack thank you for the apology. No problem if you do not believe me. I suggest you do a microbiome / organic acids test, and get a functional doctor or nutritionist to help you. They may cost a lot of money, but they will set you onto the path of quicker healing.

I have decided to stop visiting this site regularly and will not be participating actively in the future.

[Prozack]

@ChompooI was asking a lot, because I also had a phase when I was having GI issues and was listening to theory that I have to increase fibers for good bacteria and reduce sugars to stop feeding bad bacteria and to eat probiotics. What happened was just the opposite. Thing was getting worse.

 

A lot of ex vegans realize that they improve GI issues switching to carnivore diet. I don't eat like that, but I realized that eating very low fodmap diet makes thing a lot better. Fodmaps are just nothing but easy fermentable non digestible sugars, so fibers. If you have GI issues is better to reduce intake of fibers, not increase. Sugar is not so problematic simply because sucrose is fully digestible and is not much eaten by bacteria in colon.

 

It's like throwing a piece of bread into the sea. It can be eaten by any fish - "good" or "bad".

 

So when you were saying that you was felling worse because of bad bacteria die of, it could be just the opposite you were actually feeding them.