Arisotura - venlafaxine withdrawals and destabilization

[Arisotura]

Hello everybody,

 

I have a bit of a history with depression. It seems largely situational for me, I have a history of being abused and having low self-esteem. I have also been through homelessness and transitioning at the same time, which did a number on my mental health. It was at that time that I was prescribed my first antidepressant, paroxetine. I quit it cold-turkey after one month because it seemed inefficient -- all it was doing was numbing my emotions but I still felt like ****. At the same time, helping me gain stable housing would have been way more helpful than throwing pills at me, but all they had to offer was "apply for social housing and maaaaaaaaaybe receive an apartment after waiting for 10 years". I'm not even exaggerating, this is the situation of social housing in my country.

 

I eventually managed to get to a more stable situation, but depression was still around, so I have a bit of a history of trying different things. In December 2020 and January 2021, I was prescribed vortioxetine, and it wasn't particularly effective, so I ended up quitting that cold turkey too. Later, throughout February-March 2021, I was prescribed fluoxetine. After a while, it started causing me insomnia, so I got scared and quit it cold-turkey, again.

 

Throughout 2021-2022, I also tried edibles and psychedelics. I was taking edibles once a week, sometimes twice. At first I found that they helped keep depression at bay, but after a while it was less effective. Retrospectively I think it might also have made things worse by causing or worsening some imbalance. I took a break of one month in April 2022 and it was pretty ugly: bouts of insomnia, intense depression, and so on.

 

In October 2022, I tried vortioxetine again, but it immediately gave me insomnia. In retrospect I think this is a sign that my brain was destabilized or sensitivized in some way, because the first time I tried vortioxetine it didn't give me any insomnia.

 

In November 2022, following a particularly bad depressive crisis, I wanted to try antidepressants again, and was prescribed venlafaxine. I had to get through 40+ days of insomnia when I started it. Regardless, I felt that it had immediate efficacy, which might be another sign I was dealing with some form of imbalance at that moment? Regardless, venlafaxine greatly helped me in that it gave me time and space to pursue therapy and work on some of my problems.

 

In March 2023 I was diagnosed with ADHD and started Ritalin, hoping it could help me. It felt pretty efficient at first -- I was happy, full of energy, and it was a lot easier for me to start tasks and complete them. However, in the end, it didn't bode well with venlafaxine. I reached doses of 30mg/day Ritalin, 112.5mg/day venlafaxine, and the combo gave me pretty sh*tty side effects -- sensitivity to light, tiredness, headache, absurdly dry mouth -- without helping with ADHD at all. I quit Ritalin and the side effects mostly subsided.

 

Following this, I wanted to quit venlafaxine to see how ADHD meds alone would work out. My reasoning is that dealing with ADHD may work better for depression since it would make it easier for me to undertake beneficial life changes, rather than just going to work and getting back home and not doing much.

 

So after 10 months of venlafaxine, I tapered off from August to September, from 112.5mg to 0mg. It was a quick taper, but at the time it seemed to be okay for me. When I made the jump to zero, I felt a bit weird and sensitive for a couple weeks, and had very mild brain zaps. The physical withdrawals had been very mild compared to what I was expecting, so I thought I'd made it.

 

I later tried ADHD meds again, but they didn't seem to work well. Ritalin did work at first, albeit not as strong as when I was on venlafaxine. But after a while, it lost efficacy and seemed to make me feel sad, so with my psychiatrist we decided not to try higher doses. I tried Concerta and it was similar, albeit shorter lived.

 

Throughout October and November 2023 I had periods of anhedonia and dull sadness, which started worrying me. Later I was feeling depressed too, probably didn't help that I was starting to get sick of my job. I also feel that, looking back on 2023, the antidepressant did help me feel better but I felt largely content with a life situation that doesn't suit me well.

 

In December, I was feeling better when I took vacation time and visited my parents -- until I started feeling depressed again for no apparent reason. I also experienced some sleep trouble and insomnia at that time.

 

January 2024 was kinda rough. I think protracted withdrawals and work-related stress combined into something quite bad. But at the time I didn't think protracted withdrawals could be something lasting for so long. Feeling desperate, and afraid of the work situation, I tried going back on venlafaxine. But it felt wrong -- it immediately made me feel quite anxious and tripped out. When I started it in November 2022 it didn't feel this way, and I'm normally not a very anxious person. It felt like my brain was overly sensitive and I was adding fuel to the fire, so I quit after 5 days of venlafaxine.

 

I went back to work and saw my mood decline throughout the week, had a breakdown the next Monday. I'm now on medical leave, again. I feel some guilt about it. I'm in the process of quitting my job -- I want to take some time to rest before going for another, hopefully better job. I'm a bit afraid though.

 

I'm probably still going through protracted withdrawals, but I'm concerned about depression returning too. I'm concerned that the 5-day reinstatement attempt may have worsened things. For now my idea is to avoid all psychoactive drugs until my brain is stabilized, but if anyone here has suggestions about this, I'm all ears.

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arisotura, 

welcome to Surviving Antidepressants. I am really sorry you have been having a series of difficult years with life challenges as well as (understandably) not feeling well in those situations. Life can be quite difficult sometimes and your reactions seem utterly normal - as you noted, instead of solving the issue of homelessness, you were given drugs. What needed fixing was the situation, not your normal reaction to it. 

 

To get you started, can you pls fill in your drug signature like shown here: 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forums/topic/28240-how-to-summarize-your-drug-history-in-your-signature/

 

We do not recommend or encourage people to take drugs on these forums as there is plenty of research showing that the drugs are ineffective and the idea of a chemical imbalance has been debunked (pls let me know if you would like links to scientific articles on the topic). From your experience with reinstatement, it is likely that your nervous systems is too sensitized to tolerate drugs right now. 

 

Other than that, how would you like us to help? You can browse the forums here or pop in on other people's intro topics to say hello. 

We did (do?) have a member who was also transitioning who had lots of other problems. Not sure if you will find their thread useful - dirtvoid was the handle, I believe. Are you taking any hormones right now? Some of these may impact mood as well and may explain the intensification of some of the withdrawal symptoms. 

 

Hope you start feeling better soon, 
OMW

 

 

[Arisotura]

Thank you. I guess I'm looking for advice and similar stories regarding what I'm going through -- likely protracted withdrawal of some kind. I want to hope things will get better, but I'm also afraid of depression returning.

 

I'll do my signature asap.

 

As for trans hormones: these do affect the way you experience emotions, that's true. For me, estradiol made my emotional range wider and deeper, my emotions really do feel more colorful and they feel more like what they should be. A side effect is that it also made depression more colorful, if you will -- the first time I had a bout of depression while on HRT, I cried and I was shocked. Before that, my emotions were kinda dulled and depression was just background noise, not something that was able to make me cry.

 

However I don't think these would be interfering with psychiatric drugs, or drugs in general, beyond possibly changing my metabolism. Hormones you take when you transition are generally bioidentical, which means they're the same molecules that your body produces naturally. I don't really have the option to stop them anyway, even temporarily -- doing so could cause me various health problems, including terrible mood, osteoporosis, and so on.

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arisotura

 

Thank you for filling in your signature. 

I notice that you have attempted a reinstatement of 75mg of venlafaxine. We recommend a much smaller dose - something like 1mg, this may provide some benefit without the extreme side effects. These drugs are very potent at low doses so even a 1mg can have an effect. The issue is that reinstating after a month is hit and miss in general and venlafaxine has a short half life so you will have to take it multiple times if it is not in its extended release form and you will need to be very vigilant about exact timings of this. If you would like help in doing this let me know and I can provide more advice/instruction. 

 

You've had such a difficult time that it only makes sense that you are worried about the depression returning. It is a common fear here. The good news is that you are a better situation right now in terms of life circumstances AND you have more resources under your belt to help  you weather whatever storm might come. I love the expression: "Life is tough but I am tougher!" We can't always protect against what life will throw our way - no one can. But we can build tools to help us meet the challenges. It seems like medications are not going to be part of that toolset given your recent trial of venlafaxine and the general lack of efficacy you've experienced but there are lots of other tools that are just as effective. 

 

Do you have a  network for friends/family that can be there for you if you need it? Do you feel supported by whatever communities you are a part of - online or IRL (SA can be one of your communities)? If not, how can you create and strengthen such ties?

 

Do  you have a way to financially support yourself? This is important. I know you said you don't like your job but pls consider staying until you find something  better unless there is abuse. This will allow you to keep a roof over your head, food on the table etc. 

Do you eat well? Exercise? Do you have access to decent medical care? 

 

How do you support your mental health?  Have you tried meditation? I like metta meditation myself. Do you have access to good therapy? Do you read books that may be good enough substitutes for therapy? CBT skills can be quite important when practiced properly. 

 

What we find with withdrawal is that it improves slowly over time but it can take years to get back to normal and the process is not linear - you may have lots of good days and then suddenly you are back to the beginning. We call this The Windows and Wave pattern of recovery. 

 

Regarding the hormones, we would never advise not taking them, but it might be useful for you to know that they impact mental health (birth control pills have made me weep uncontrollably for no reason in the past) so it is useful to separate their impact from the withdrawal and depression. Estrogen is one of the easier ones, I think - progesterone tends to be associated with mood issues (though I have no idea if that is part of your cocktail and don't know much more about it than anecdotal reports from birth control and HRT in menopause discussions). I think testosterone tends to be problematic as it causes more severe anxiety and anger issues. Again, not my area of expertise and you should follow your doctor's advice

 

Let me know if you would like to consider a small reinstatement of venlafaxine. It may still be too much but also may be enough to keep your lower your symptoms. 

 

Wishing you easy sailing in this process.

OMW

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arisotura]

What worries me about depression is the kind of breakdowns I have. It can get so bad I don't really function, and the feelings are encompassing and overwhelming even though I know depression lies. That being said, I think the breakdowns I was experiencing throughout 2021-2022 were exacerbated if not driven by my drug use at the time and the imbalance it may have caused.

 

I will try my best. I hope to see this trend subside as I recover.

 

I do have friends IRL and online.

 

Regarding the job situation, I want to quit because my current job is deteriorating my mental health at this point. I do have enough savings to last about one year with no income (and in practice I can likely receive welfare benefits), so I will be okay. I want to rest for maybe a couple months before going for another job.

 

As for exercise, I used to play badminton somewhat regularly, but I stopped after going on venlafaxine -- low energy, then several things that happened and took away all my time and energy (catching covid, moving to a new apartment, mold problem in said apartment, and so on). I should go back to badminton, or something else, but finding the motivation and energy is the thing.

 

For food, well, I try (keyword try) to balance my diet somewhat, but similar problems with motivation and energy. I'm not so good at cooking and I also have ADHD so that's worth keeping in mind.

 

I do have a therapist, though I haven't seen her in a while for reasons. I'll try to see her more, I will have time after I quit my job so there's that.

 

I have tried meditation quickly, but I don't know if I can observe much of a benefit.

 

As for hormones: I remember that when I started taking progesterone I felt better, so I think it helps stabilize my mood. Also worth keeping in mind that birth control is synthetic stuff unlike HRT (different molecules), so you will react differently to it. I don't know about this but there might be a cyclical component to my mood.

 

For now I'm keeping the reinstatement option on the table but only if things get really bad. We'll see how things evolve next week as I return to work, but currently my mood has been improving throughout this week.

 

Thank you!

[Onmyway]

This all sounds good. I hope the improvements continue!

Regarding exercise, just simple movement is enough - walking, doing things around the house etc. In withdrawal some people are hypersensitive to exercise meaning that they may get more symptoms from strenuous exercise so pls have that in mind. 

 

Regarding reinstatement, do let me know if you would like to try it but no pressure from me either way. 

OMW

[Arisotura]

Alright, taking note. Thank you.

 

I'm feeling okay today, albeit tired. I hope the botched reinstatement doesn't end up meaning recovery will take twice as long or something.

[Arisotura]

My mood went down as I returned to work, as per the pattern. Although it was at its worst on Wednesday, and now it seems somewhat better. I have also been noticing some GI trouble and bad sleep -- sleep is shallow and now I seem to wake up early. I did get a glimpse of actual happiness last week, so I guess there's some hope.

 

It probably doesn't help that I'm afraid of certain things.

 

For one, I want to take a couple months of rest after quitting this job (by the end of March). But I'm also afraid of what to do next, like, I don't really know what I can realistically do given the limits I have (getting exhausted after too much socializing, fear of driving, ...) and the typical expectations recruiters have.

 

I mentioned having been homeless -- I have squatted for two years. I think at some level I'm still afraid of ending up in a similar situation again. I feel that functioning in society is hard and exhausting for someone like me, and that it will get harder. It doesn't help that I always feel very pessimistic about the world and the future.

 

I feel that I'm not very good at dealing with these feelings. They take me and they feel like absolute truth and it feels overwhelming, until it fades in the background. I don't know what is withdrawals and what is depression...

 

Also including feelings of loneliness. I think there's some truth to these feelings, looking back on my current lifestyle -- I live alone, and don't really feel strong bonds to my coworkers (especially these days). There's one thing I miss from the squat days: living with other people, a sense of community. The people whom I squatted with are still my friends today, but we no longer squat and we kinda do our own things and it's not the same. There are possible plans for flatsharing, so I have to see what is possible.

 

Looking back on it, I feel that I have made some progress in the self-esteem department, but the loneliness part gets to me at times -- especially when depression brain tries to rationalize it. But atleast there are lifestyle changes I can make to attempt dealing with this.

 

But for the rest, I don't know. The current state of the world, the direction it's headed in, my fear of things getting so hard as to be unbearable for me. I don't really know what I can do there. These feelings get more pregnant when I'm depressed, but I never seem to forget.

 

I don't know.

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arisotura

your feelings make sense to me. They don't seem like depression but like our existential longing for others and community which in the western world today is hard to come by. I am glad that you are looking for options for flat-sharing whether with these people or others. While living with others may not be an option immediately, what are some things that you can do now? Do you have in person groups that you belong to? I got really into board-gaming when I was in the thick of WD and it was an easy way to socialize. Lots of neurodiverse people and lots of acceptance in the community. 

 

The fear of being homeless also sounds understandable, especially if you have been there. I have never been homeless but even I have fear of it. Our society doesn't always have good safety net systems. The good thing you know now is that even if that were to happen, you have the resources in you to find a way to get through it, be it through squatting or finding help in other ways. So while no one can say it will never happen to anyone, I know you can deal with it. You also have friends who can help you. 

 

During Covid our apartment complex came together and we had this group where we would sit socially distanced on the lawn every night. Now it doesn't happen any more because everyone is doing their thing and going to work etc. but I still make a point of socializing with some of the neighbors. Keep doing that. It won't ever be the same but new beautiful things can happen even if they are not exactly like what you had before. 

 

Have you ever had CBT? It helps with patterns of thinking that may lead to depression. There is a handbook for it as well. It is evidence based - i.e. there it really helps. I suspect part of the depression from work is the anticipation of what it will be like. I am sure that you can endure some of it temporarily until you decide that it has been enough and find something better. There are all kinds of jobs where you don't have to talk to people. I don't know your qualifications and skills but even if you had no skills, you could find something. 

 

You will get through this. Your feelings and frustrations are normal and human. Don't be scared of them. If you do feel sad or scared, it is OK to cry and look for help and a sympathetic ear. Here or IRL. I am so glad that you found us! I am here for you. 

Hugs,
OMW

 

[Arisotura]

I do make somewhat regular attempts at seeing friends, there's also a hackerspace I go to sometimes (when it's open, that is). It's just complicated because I tend to be exhausted when I get back home after work, and my friends are likely in similar situations. I also tend to want/need to have some time to myself, to work on my personal stuff or just hang out in some online places -- I value these communities even if it's not the same as IRL interaction.

 

Board games sound like an interesting idea. 

 

Your story brings back some good memories. I spent the first covid lockdown (the next ones were fake "go to work and sacrifice your social life" **** in my country) with some of my friends who were still squatting at the time. They had a pretty nice squat, it was a dance studio so there was a large room to do fun stuff, a few extra offices/rooms and an apartment in the back. There was also a nice garden and the weather was pretty good at the time. There had been some drama but overall it was a pretty good time for everybody. The lockdown had such a weird, "world in stasis" feel. It felt like spending time in some alternate reality. I remember that my mood was pretty good during that time, despite the uncertainties and overall vibe of the moment.

 

Regarding socializing with neighbors, I haven't really done that, mostly social anxiety, I'm always afraid of being seen as weird or in demand or a disturbance if I just show up at someone's door without a 'proper' reason.

 

I haven't really tried CBT. From what I get it involves, for example, reminding myself that "it's irrational to think about X" and such? I know how well things stick in my brain and form weird automatic chains of thought (it gets exhausting at times). I'm concerned that CBT would add more mess to my already messy brain. I don't reject the idea, but I'm concerned about that.

 

What I'm scared of is how easily things can compound and result in complete despair for me, to the point I start having suicidal thoughts because I see no way out. I have seen times and times that things aren't always this dark, but I'm still prone to this.

 

Thank you though! I will try my best.

[Arisotura]

Been feeling somewhat better this weekend. I'm back at work and so far my mood hasn't plummeted, that's a bit of a change. Things are still not very active or interesting at work. I need to put up with that until April. 

 

I'm not feeling perfect but there's definitely improvement, I'm able to feel desire and interest for some personal projects. I'm still experiencing symptoms. Sometimes, occasional bit of headache. GI function not quite right, and oscillating, if you will. Sleep feels shallow -- some amount of insomnia, and the limit between sleep and waking states feels tenuous. Things like waste collection trucks will wake me up, which didn't seem to happen when I was on venlafaxine.

 

It's hard to judge how far I might be on the journey to recovery, though.

 

One trait I have is that I'm largely time-blind, any moment in the past feels like it was years ago to me, and I tend to feel really immersed in the present instant. It's a double-edged sword. For example, say I'm visiting friends in an unusual place, it can feel as if I'm living a different life. But it also means that during bad times (getting through a boring day, dealing with a depressive burst, ...), I'm also more stuck into it. So I would probably need to find out ways to distract myself during these times.

 

In a similar vein, waves tend to feel like everything is sh*tty and hopeless and nothing can get better, but windows do feel like everything is good and trouble is over.

 

I also mentioned how it can be hard for me to function normally. I'm a more sensitive individual in general. I'm sensitive to noise (big example, traffic noise) and in general to situations where a lot of stuff is going on. I have synesthesia, which is likely a side effect of the heightened sensitivity. I'm also quite sensitive emotionally, I feel pretty well connected to my inner self such that I know very well how I'm feeling and generally why I'm feeling the way I do. 'Generally' until depression starts messing with me -- then my mind will try to rationalize the feelings and look for reasons, and anything will fill the void. "Global warming? Yeah, sure, that's a good reason to feel like ****".

 

This kind of emotional sensitivity also means that I can't really put on a facade and pretend to be doing well. My emotions are already so pregnant, if I try to put on a facade, I do really feel that it doesn't match the way I'm feeling and I can't make the facade convincing, and it also gets exhausting. I consider it a quality -- I appear as I am, no facade, you can trust me -- but it also makes things harder to deal with when I'm not doing well.

 

-

 

I think I will use this thread as a journal of sorts, to keep track of the recovery, if that's okay. When things get sh*tty I need to remind myself more that things aren't always sh*tty.

[BaccatePlayer]

5 minutes ago, Arisotura said:

I think I will use this thread as a journal of sorts, to keep track of the recovery, if that's okay.

This is a good way to make yourself feel like you're in control and actively working on understanding yourself better. Just be careful not to mess your point of view since things can go worse for a while within few days and the progress usually happens on a scale that may require looking broader than you remember. Also don't stress yourself about sensitivity too much. Many healthy people are and deal with consequences of it, but a recovering/compensating CNS is already burdened enough, so it will improve too. Wish you very bright days!

[Arisotura]

I got a week off. I'm also feeling kinda better on average, I was able to get through the week without crying all the time and I even found myself a bit more willing to socialize.

 

I wanted to ask about a particular thing, too.

 

I've been to the doctor today, to have a prescription for jaw reeducation renewed. Basically, my neck/jaw/scalp muscles on the left side are tense, and we're working to help with that. But the doctor also found something else: when my left eye is covered, it will do its own thing instead of following the right eye. This might contribute to the eye strain I feel sometimes...

 

I also have a weird problem with my left ear, which seems to be fluid getting stuck behind my eardrum due to some eustachian tube dysfunction. It's been around for ages at this point and as far as I can remember, it started happening during my weed abuse period. I also remember that when I was on 112.5mg/day of venlafaxine, I ended up getting TMJ symptoms. Jaw symptoms seem to have largely subsided, but I still have a bunch of problems on my left side.

 

I wonder if these could have been caused or exacerbated by withdrawals. I've always had a kinda weird posture, but didn't have these problems before.

[Arisotura]

Seems I'm getting a bit of a symptom flare-up these days. My sleep was shallow but I was atleast able to fall asleep... these last two days however, I've been getting bouts of insomnia, not managing to sleep before 6:00 or so, which kinda sucks. Good thing I'm on a week off.

 

The only thing I take, besides HRT, is lion's mane capsules. I don't think they could be causing bad side effects.

 

I'm also getting some physical symptoms. Random bouts of pressure/aching in the temples, itching, tiredness throughout the day. It's not terribly bad, just annoying. The worst would be a depression burst, but so far my mood is okay.

 

Mood has been pretty stable lately, too. It might help that things are in the pipeline now, I have a date for when my job ends, possible ideas, things to look forward to. At a subconscious level this probably helps.

[Arisotura]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:52 PM, Onmyway said:

there is plenty of research showing that the drugs are ineffective

I looked into it and I found that antidepressants are ineffective for moderate depression, and only possibly effective for the worst cases. Is there more on the subject?

 

I still think the depression I've been dealing with has mostly been situational, and not some fundamental problem with my brain. I'm glad to have found this place. I was starting to think like everybody else, friends, therapist, etc, was telling me: "you're relapsing, you need to get back on meds". I was starting to see myself as stuck in a cycle, needing meds forever due to some fundamental brain problem. Deep down I didn't want to get caught in that cycle of constantly juggling meds just to stay somewhat functional. 

 

In retrospect I think my drug (ab)use did make things worse, too. I remember I had that very peculiar nightmare in March 2022:

 

I was getting back to what was my room, in some odd building with a maze of hallways and stairs. I had ordered some drugs and was waiting for them to arrive, too. On the way, that guy stopped me: he knew I intended to get high and named the specific drugs I wanted to take. He knew I would "take them with HDMI" -- likely a reference to how I always liked to blast music on my TV when high. I stopped, then he kinda pushed me from behind, in a "continue in your wrongdoings" sort of way.

 

I continued down the hallway. The same guy started making a noose out of electrical cable. At this moment I had this inner feeling that the guy had magical powers of sorts and the situation was very wrong. Eventually, the hallway was dark and I couldn't see anything. I kept going, and got caught in that same noose. Then I woke up.

 

Seems clear my subconscious was warning me about the drugs.

 

-

 

I'm still having some insomnia and not sleeping too well, but I can feel things improving. I'm feeling more energetic, can feel my brain power coming back if you will. My GI function has also been rock solid lately.

 

-

 

I do have a point of concern though: ADHD.

 

The main part of it is that it can be really difficult for me to get started on tasks and stay focused on them until completion. I either hyperfocus on things or have trouble focusing. This is happening to me right now at work: there's that project I need to button up, but I can't focus on the details of that because all I can think about is the personal project I've been working on lately, a blog post I could write about it, and so on.

 

This has long been a problem for me. When I lived with my parents, neither of us thought of ADHD, and they kept telling me I was lazy, "only did what I liked", that I was squandering my potential, that I "was like that because I was a spoilt brat who doesn't know what it's like to have to work". All the things that never helped motivate me and only served to undermine my self-esteem. On one side, the injunction to be productive, on the other side, this unexplainable problem I had, and I had no real line of defense. All I had was my ego, acting offended and getting into a shouting match when my parents called me out, but deep down it all was getting to me. I'd always felt I would be worthless as an adult and wouldn't last one month.

 

I've been living on my own for nearly 8 years now, so obviously I'm able to make it to some extent. But these things still kinda stick with me. I feel guilty about having mental health episodes, needing time off, or even slacking off because I can't get myself to start a task.

 

ADHD, as far as I know, isn't something situational like depression might be. It also is generally not something you can overcome by sheer willpower -- whenever I have to do so, it feels miserable and lasts forever because my brain just does not want to focus and I'm fighting it the entire time. The way I deal with it is by working with my brain instead of against it -- let the motivation come when it comes. But obviously this only works as long as the deadlines I'm given are loose. Start pressuring me and it will turn into a disaster.

 

ADHD meds, when they worked, were a game changer for me. I could just decide to get things done. Something unthinkable for me. The problem was that they didn't bode well with venlafaxine, or later with withdrawals. I also think that ultimately these aren't a silver bullet, and they aren't gonna work if I feel bad.

 

But now I'm also concerned about these causing problems in the long run, like antidepressants would. Losing efficiency, causing withdrawals, etc.

 

I don't know how I feel about skipping them on weekends. Might help with tolerance, but on the other hand, I don't want them to just be "the pill so you can function under capitalism", like work matters more than my personal projects and life.

 

Does any of you have advice about this?

[Onmyway]

ADHD is a difficult topic @Arisotura. There is no question that some people have the difficulties that you had and do need help. I would be diagnosed with ADHD if I did seek a diagnosis. I am less convinced that this is a structural issue with the brain or some physiological issue similar to chemical imbalance (the chemical imbalance theory was a myth). The drugs are addictive (same class as meth), tolerance building and have long term consequences for people's health that we don't fully understand yet. I observed an 18 year old a couple of years ago who ran out of their medication due to the shortages and her hands were literally shaking. She had been medicated since age 4. The idea that these drugs' adverse effects somehow do not happen in those who have ADHD is preposterous - ADHD doesn't change our physiology. Do I  have a solution on how to help people with these symptoms? I, unfortunately, don't. I can't offer an alternative for survival in this world. 

 

There are a few things that help me make sense of ADHD in terms of our internal lives - sort of like alternative explanations for the symptoms: 

 

1) The idea that when we are distracted, it is usually because of some experience within us that is uncomfortable and distraction is a way to soothe ourselves and not face these emotions. I like the idea of - "distracting from" (shame, anger) rather than "distracting to" (Instagram, partying). This is an old idea, though I encountered it for the first time in the book Indistractable [the book itself was not very useful to me beyond that one point]. Another book that was recommended to me here by Carmie was 90 Seconds To a Life You Love which is about facing uncomfortable feelings. The two sort of have the same message. 

 

2) Another self help book - "Running on Empty" talked about how difficulties with self-discipline - i.e. doing things that are boring, can be the result of childhood emotional neglect - even parents who are, on the outside, good parents fail to help the child self-regulate. She has worksheets to help with this - thing like - do 3 things you don't want to do every day. 

 

3) For a couple of years I did IFS therapy as well - Internal Family Systems - it views the human psyche as a collection of parts as in ["A part of me really needs to do the laundry" but "Another part of me wants to watch Netflix"]. It is more complicated than that of course but the idea is that our distraction on the outside is a result of 'warring' parts on the inside. Here is a good primer though the original book by Richard Schwarz is quite good. https://cls.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3019/2020/03/Handouts-for-IFS.pdf/ I liked the idea myself but the process of the therapy I did not like as much. 

 

4) I also have friends with ADHD who are medicated during the week, like you, and who have found a lot of help from a program of attention training through meditation through various apps. Our brains are incredibly plastic (changeable, flexible) and so the idea is that we can train attention. It is not easy but if people with strokes who have lost half their brains can learn to speak again, so can we train our brains. 

 

None of these ways of thinking are to say that ADHD is just laziness and our fault. It is just that like everything else, there are reasons why we are this way. I think a lot of these symptoms are ways in which we learned to cope with a difficult world through various ways of avoidance of difficult things that happened to us. But even if something was different in our brains, I refuse to accept that it is unchangeable in a way that can't compensate for at least some of the deficits.

 

 

These are, of course, my thoughts. I am not a doctor though I do a lot of medical research but ADHD has not been one of my main topics. I also find that a lot of the literature is quite biased in terms of the current dogma of psychiatry. For each decade/generation psychiatry finds a new illness/medicine that they peddle. It was antipsychotics/benzodiazepines/antidepressants/SSRI/atypical antipsychotics/ketamine and now stimulants. You do with these thoughts what you will. It is not easy being different and trying to be made to fit into a society that demands of you a certain way of being to survive. I wish there was more non-medication support to help people overcome these difficulties. But even if you did have therapy it is not specifically designed to help treat the ADHD but rather ends up being about talking about how life with ADHD is difficult. It definitely is, of course and the support may be useful but it is symptomatic treatment only. 

 

*Amazing stories about brain plasticity are in the book "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. It is quite old now. I think this story was in the book. 

[BigCat]

15 hours ago, Onmyway said:

ADHD is a difficult topic @Arisotura. There is no question that some people have the difficulties that you had and do need help. I would be diagnosed with ADHD if I did seek a diagnosis. I am less convinced that this is a structural issue with the brain or some physiological issue similar to chemical imbalance (the chemical imbalance theory was a myth). The drugs are addictive (same class as meth), tolerance building and have long term consequences for people's health that we don't fully understand yet. I observed an 18 year old a couple of years ago who ran out of their medication due to the shortages and her hands were literally shaking. She had been medicated since age 4. The idea that these drugs' adverse effects somehow do not happen in those who have ADHD is preposterous - ADHD doesn't change our physiology. Do I  have a solution on how to help people with these symptoms? I, unfortunately, don't. I can't offer an alternative for survival in this world. 

 

There are a few things that help me make sense of ADHD in terms of our internal lives - sort of like alternative explanations for the symptoms: 

 

1) The idea that when we are distracted, it is usually because of some experience within us that is uncomfortable and distraction is a way to soothe ourselves and not face these emotions. I like the idea of - "distracting from" (shame, anger) rather than "distracting to" (Instagram, partying). This is an old idea, though I encountered it for the first time in the book Indistractable [the book itself was not very useful to me beyond that one point]. Another book that was recommended to me here by Carmie was 90 Seconds To a Life You Love which is about facing uncomfortable feelings. The two sort of have the same message. 

 

2) Another self help book - "Running on Empty" talked about how difficulties with self-discipline - i.e. doing things that are boring, can be the result of childhood emotional neglect - even parents who are, on the outside, good parents fail to help the child self-regulate. She has worksheets to help with this - thing like - do 3 things you don't want to do every day. 

 

3) For a couple of years I did IFS therapy as well - Internal Family Systems - it views the human psyche as a collection of parts as in ["A part of me really needs to do the laundry" but "Another part of me wants to watch Netflix"]. It is more complicated than that of course but the idea is that our distraction on the outside is a result of 'warring' parts on the inside. Here is a good primer though the original book by Richard Schwarz is quite good. https://cls.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3019/2020/03/Handouts-for-IFS.pdf/ I liked the idea myself but the process of the therapy I did not like as much. 

 

4) I also have friends with ADHD who are medicated during the week, like you, and who have found a lot of help from a program of attention training through meditation through various apps. Our brains are incredibly plastic (changeable, flexible) and so the idea is that we can train attention. It is not easy but if people with strokes who have lost half their brains can learn to speak again, so can we train our brains. 

 

None of these ways of thinking are to say that ADHD is just laziness and our fault. It is just that like everything else, there are reasons why we are this way. I think a lot of these symptoms are ways in which we learned to cope with a difficult world through various ways of avoidance of difficult things that happened to us. But even if something was different in our brains, I refuse to accept that it is unchangeable in a way that can't compensate for at least some of the deficits.

 

 

These are, of course, my thoughts. I am not a doctor though I do a lot of medical research but ADHD has not been one of my main topics. I also find that a lot of the literature is quite biased in terms of the current dogma of psychiatry. For each decade/generation psychiatry finds a new illness/medicine that they peddle. It was antipsychotics/benzodiazepines/antidepressants/SSRI/atypical antipsychotics/ketamine and now stimulants. You do with these thoughts what you will. It is not easy being different and trying to be made to fit into a society that demands of you a certain way of being to survive. I wish there was more non-medication support to help people overcome these difficulties. But even if you did have therapy it is not specifically designed to help treat the ADHD but rather ends up being about talking about how life with ADHD is difficult. It definitely is, of course and the support may be useful but it is symptomatic treatment only. 

 

*Amazing stories about brain plasticity are in the book "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. It is quite old now. I think this story was in the book. 

All of the above...

 

I meet the criteria for diagnosis, and so have I make it my business to find out about ADHD, and like @Onmyway am mindful that the drugs are addictive, help many people in the short term, some in the medium to long term, even with increased dosing or drug swaps- they are amphetamines!

Taking a broader view, I manage myself by finding "the right kind of difficult" as ADHD author Ed Hallowell puts it, and trying to manage my work, relationships, environment and drug use accordingly.  

There seems to be emerging evidence/counter arguments that "ADHD" is linked to early brain plasticity and can be liked to trauma... who knows?  But for folk like me, and maybe you too, society does want us to conform and will seek solutions to do just that; ADHD (whatever it is) is overrepresented in the prison population, in addiction and in anxious depression.  Sherlock? Merde? Non! 

[Arisotura]

Thanks for the input on this.

 

I saw my psychiatrist last week and we talked about it too. There's another aspect of this that weighs in: the practical, logistics aspect. Stimulant treatment for ADHD is annoying to work with, atleast in France. The way it works is that you get a special 'secure' prescription, which is handwritten by the psychiatrist and lasts exactly 28 days. By comparison, the prescriptions I would get for antidepressants lasted 2 months, and my HRT prescriptions last 6 months. Also, you need to get it refilled at the same pharmacy every time (or arrange things with your doctor beforehand to get it refilled at another pharmacy). So it becomes something that is a) recurring relatively often and b) needs to be planned around if you're travelling or whatever. And they're very strict about how much you get -- one time, my script was written while I was on vacation, I went back home and got my prescription filled 10 days later, the pharmacist removed 10 pills from the bottle. God forbid you have as much as 10 extra pills. They aren't this strict when it comes to 'regular' medication.

 

Either way, I don't want to try ADHD treatment for now -- I want to give my brain a chance to stabilize, and then we'll see how things go. There's also an alternative to long-term treatment for me: using immediate-release Ritalin 'when needed', in situations that would be too much for me under normal circumstances. But again, we'll see how things go.

 

-

 

I seem to be getting a bit of a wave now. My mood over the weekend was somewhat sad, also noting some physical symptoms.

 

So far it's not been a full blown depressive spiral. I'm trying my best to remind myself that things aren't always like this. I've had a very nice window throughout the second half of February. I know my brain is working on it.

[Arisotura]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:41 AM, Onmyway said:

2) Another self help book - "Running on Empty" talked about how difficulties with self-discipline - i.e. doing things that are boring, can be the result of childhood emotional neglect - even parents who are, on the outside, good parents fail to help the child self-regulate. She has worksheets to help with this - thing like - do 3 things you don't want to do every day. 

Looking back on this, I've had a complex relationship with school and also with my parents.

 

There's a lot to be said about school itself. First, quick thing: as much as they like to go on about "respect", they miss the fact that respect goes both ways. You owe them respect, but they don't owe it back to you -> that is domination, you are being dominated. Somehow even as a kid I had some understanding of this fact, even though I couldn't really articulate it into words and was dismissed by adults who normalized the status quo.

 

A common theme for me at school was that I excelled at things I could easily grasp, things where the logic was well-defined, and I did more or less poorly at the rest. In elementary school I was largely excellent, mostly because the stuff there isn't that hard, and I had excellent memory.

 

I sucked at certain subjects because I didn't know what was expected from me. I felt that I was going to spent a ton of effort churning out something, only to get a sh*t grade because they somehow expected 3x more. So in the end I just did the bare minimum I could get away with without getting called out for not putting in any effort.

 

Because cramming things in my brain just to pass an exam isn't something I'm particularly good at. I learn by practicing things a lot. I remember a feeling I had when trying to prepare for exams: what do I even need to prepare for? If I'm to prepare for something, I need to know what to expect. But I didn't, and I felt that whatever work I could put in wouldn't pay off -- the exam would either be 10x more difficult, or be about something else. It felt like gambling and I didn't want to take a chance. Basically, the feeling that your efforts are going to be vain.

 

And then there's the school of thought that if you fail, it's your personal moral failing, you just didn't work hard enough, you're lazy, etc. I had the feeling that teachers weren't there to help me, only to give me work and judge my performance.

 

Maybe there was also some self-sabotage I did, consciously or unconsciously. During my school years I had that "gifted kid" label, and the associated expectations of being a genius, etc. Later I wanted to distance myself from it, even trying to tell myself that I was neurotypical (lol) because I wanted to be 'normal' and not 'the lame boring nerd'.

 

My parents never trusted me when it came to school work. They trusted me when it came to other things, like helping them with renovating our house, but none of it seemed important in their eyes. When it came to school work, I always had to prove my value and my ability to them. When they were frustrated with me they could talk about my hobbies like these were worthless distractions, timewasters (nevermind that the same hobbies did help me get a job later).

 

They complained about how I was secretive and never talked to them, but they never listened when I did. A prime example: one day I told mom that I was questioning my studies and wondering if it was the right thing for me, she immediately replied "you say that because it's getting hard and you're lazy". 10/10. In general, being secretive and giving out minimum amounts of information is how I respond to people judging me. But that eluded them, whatever I said they would turn it back against me.

 

A thing mom kept doing was force her assistance upon me when it came to school work. Like, coming in and making me do exercises or whatever. No. You can't just come in and ask me to work on random stuff, even moreso if there's no clear goal. "You do these exercises so you can get a good diploma and a good job" -- that is not a clear goal, that has never motivated me. Even at the time I knew things weren't that simple.

 

I didn't want to feel that I needed her assistance to get by. I also couldn't just get to work on command. I sometimes tried to tell her why she should stop doing that, she acted like she was understanding, but the next day she was back at it (no wonder I didn't trust her). No amount of shouting matches stopped her either, the only thing that did was me moving out.

 

I remember a feeling I had during my uni years: that I wasn't cut out for adulthood, that I wouldn't last one month out there. Maybe because I felt that my successes didn't really matter ("it was easy", "it was something you like", ...) while my failures were rubbed in my face -- it made me feel that I would fail at anything really important in life.

 

I had a general feeling of being 'broken', subpar, etc... An example highlighting that: one day I decide I'm gonna be serious and all, my friends go to the uni library to work some subject, I join them. They open their books, start working on their stuff, all fine and dandy. I follow suit, but... I can't focus. I can't understand what it's all about (all way abstract stuff, but my brain needs concrete material to work from). I feel that I'm just too far behind to catch up, and that there's no point working on that stuff because the exam will be 10x harder or about different stuff -- the part where I don't know what to expect.

 

Bit of an infodump here. May explain things.

 

-

 

The sad burst from last week was short-lived, so that's good. Still feeling some symptoms, sleep not that good, I also feel exhausted at times. It's weird, one moment I will feel kinda jolly and chatty and the next I will feel exhausted or annoyed at what's going on. But overall my mood is solid.

 

I'm feeling recovery happen. I do notice glimpses of my old abilities -- the engrossing imagination, the excitement I can feel for a personal project.

 

I want to say thank you all for this community. Without this, I might have ended up on the med merry-go-round for who knows how long.

[Arisotura]

I think I'm having a bad wave...

 

Feelings of loneliness.

 

I'm feeling that all I've been doing was distracting myself from these by hyperfocusing on a personal project.

 

I'm feeling stuck. Feeling that at the end of the day, I can't form bonds with people no matter how hard I try, because I'm too weird, too different, I don't have enough social value, what do I know. Feeling that my friends aren't going to be here for me when I need it. They have better things to do.

 

I haven't even gotten myself to try things like board game clubs. Deep down, similar reasons -- I feel that I will never manage to get into the group and be seen as part of it, at best people will just politely put up with me if I constantly force myself in, and forget about me entirely if I don't.

 

Also it takes time, and I'm feeling stuck in the rat race -- spending all your time working a job to earn your surviving, being too exhausted to do much else the rest of the time. I'm going to quit my job, but then what? Eventually I will have to work another job. There's no alternative.

 

Most people have a partner and maybe children, and I guess that's a 'good enough' form of community for them. But that feels like a pipe dream for me.

 

I'm feeling hopeless, like life has nothing to offer for someone like me, there's no hope for a better future, only dull suffering and things getting progressively worse.

 

I don't know what to think of it.

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arisotura

it seems like you are wearing the gray glasses of life today. I doubt the statement that you can't form bond with people. In my longer experience on this earth, I have found that we are all weird in some wonderful way and the key is to find the other people who are the same kind of weird as us or who like our kind of weird. 

 

I recently saw this guy in person and liked the way he proposes to getting deeper connections. Here is a version of the talk. I am too tired to write more now but hope that you are feeling better. We all have days like these - don't trust this part of yourself that makes all these outrageous predictions about never being able to connect etc. 

 

[Arisotura]

I don't know. I always feel that my attempts end up the same way, with me running after people who don't give a **** about me -- if I stop trying, they will not express any desire to interact with me, they will just forget that I exist.

 

If anything, this weekend confirmed to me what I'd always feared -- my friends aren't going to be here for me, they have better things to do.

 

I thought of three people I could try and call. One responded and rejected me. The others didn't respond, didn't text me or anything.

 

I'm probably just not worth the attention.

[Arisotura]

I don't know what to think, actually. I mean, sure, I'm having a wave, but I feel that these waves hit sore spots deep down and they do leave traces. I'm feeling a general sense of dissatisfaction with my current lifestyle, the loneliness, the fact I don't like my job anymore, and so on.

 

I also feel more... inhibited when it comes to trying to hang out with friends. In the squat days, we lived together. Things are just not the same now. We see eachother less than once a week, and I feel that when I do try and do things it's like playing lottery -- will someone actually be available, will they be doing something else, will they be out of town? But if I don't try something, they generally don't come to me on their own. Sometimes I just want to give up entirely on these relationships.

 

I want to think there can be options for a genuinely fulfilling lifestyle, not just spending all my time working a job, coming back home too exhausted to do much else, feeling like an atomized, individualized speck drifting in the capitalist winds, and mindfulness-ing myself into thinking this is okay.

 

I have trouble seeing these options.

[Arisotura]

I wanted to say thank you @Onmyway for your kind post, the video has been interesting!

 

I'm feeling somewhat better, and I'm mostly able to avoid dwelling on bad thoughts, so there's that.

 

I'm still feeling tired and also still feeling that my sleep is shallow. I hope these problems subside eventually.

[Onmyway]

I am so glad you are  feeling better @Arisotura. Sometimes when we are feeling bad everything looks bad. But our thoughts are not our reality. 

 

Feeling rejected (whether that is based on reality or not) is tough. There was a study that showed that our genes change when we are feeling rejected and excluded. My experience is that when people are not responding to messages etc. it is about them - i.e. something in their life is stressful, much less than about you.

 

I am not saying that everyone will like hanging out with us - that is not true and we don't like hanging out with everyone else either. But I know that there are kindred spirits for everyone. The key is to find those and things become easier. I found my village when I was in college.  Then those people left and I found another village. Then I moved again and found a third village. 

 

You are still young and it is important to understand who you are as a person and who you are with others. How do you relate to others? What kind of a friend are you? Some people are fun, others are supportive, a third set are curious and full of information about the world, yet others are quick to initiate various activities. All of this will depend on your personality - I tend to be curious and fun but don't always initiate activities, others may be inspiring and cheerleaders. None of these is good or bad. If you are the fun person you may not get support because people may not realize that you need support and expect you to be always fun. When you are supportive others may take advantage of that but not give anything back.  And we are of course more than one thing. And think of what kinds of people you like. What do you value in others? Why? Are you dependent on them for those things or can you 'supply' some of that yourself? What do those around you value in you? 

 

I would encourage you to go to board games nights. My experience of those is that it is easy to relate to people there because you are focused on the game and there are many neuro-divergent people at those. They may not become your friends but I found it nice in the middle of withdrawal to just be with people and be distracted.  For me, I still meet with some of the people I met during withdrawal but I wouldn't call them close friends - i.e. I would not share my deepest darkest secrets with them but I met one person with whom we became great friends. In my city there were multiple meetups where you could drop by and if you didn't like it you can leave and try another one. 

 

For what it's worth I like interacting with you and I enjoy it, I am not doing it out of obligation. I wonder if you might like to engage with other people on the site. You could post on their intro and they may post back. 

 

Hope you continue feeling better, 
OMW

 

PS. Have you ever seen the book Feeling Good (there is a workbook for it as well). It is cognitive behavioral therapy that you can do on your own and helps us reframe our thoughts. It is not about suppressing our thoughts or ignoring them but about testing them. There is a list of 10 cognitive distortions from that book that you may find interesting: 

https://arfamiliesfirst.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Cognitive-Distortions.pdf

 

Edited March 19 by Onmyway

[Arisotura]

Thank you.

 

Since I'm going to quit my job, I'm going to try and build networks, connect with likeminded people -- I don't want to be alone whenever things go real bad.

 

Quote

What kind of a friend are you? Some people are fun, others are supportive, a third set are curious and full of information about the world, yet others are quick to initiate various activities.

 

The first three may fit me, the fourth not so much.

 

Ultimately I'm the kind of person who will want to find out how things work, fix them, etc.

 

Quote

And think of what kinds of people you like. What do you value in others? Why? Are you dependent on them for those things or can you 'supply' some of that yourself? What do those around you value in you? 

 

What I'm looking for is some form of strong, deep connection. I would want them to be able to help me out and support me, like I would do with them. I'm generally independant minded and want to do things by myself, but we can't rely on just ourselves -- cooperating is how we humans thrive within this unforgiving world.

 

Thinking about it, I think it backfires -- people tend to assume I do my own thing and function alone, but I don't want to be lonely either. I need connection and community as much as others.

 

Quote

For what it's worth I like interacting with you and I enjoy it, I am not doing it out of obligation. I wonder if you might like to engage with other people on the site. You could post on their intro and they may post back. 

 

Thank you. I could try, indeed -- most of the time, I just don't have much to say beyond generic stuff, but I could do so.

 

Thanks for the book, too -- I'll look into it.

 

 

I'm still feeling tired and not so great. Yesterday, I tried attending an event, and wanted to take part in a ceramic activity, but I felt overwhelmed by all the things around the activity and had a little breakdown. No biggie, I'm just not in a super good mood.

 

During it, I had the occasion to talk with someone who thinks similarly to me, wrt the world, collapse, etc. It's refreshing. I find that I'm coming to terms with these topics, they don't get to me as much as they used to, but I have another kind of worry: ending up alone whenever things start falling apart.

 

This intersects the job stuff because it's all complicated to balance. I want to do some preparation, for now mostly building networks. I would like to try alternate lifestyles, things like eco-villages, farm communities, etc. But as long as the system is still in place and functioning, we need to interact with it to some extent.

 

Regarding the job stuff, this is my last week at work. Going to be a relief for sure. Sitting at a desk all day long gets old. The isolation gets old. Sometimes I get the feeling that it's a waste of a life, that humans aren't meant to live like this. I don't know if depression causes this kind of thoughts or if it's the other way around. I know depression does cause or atleast amplify feelings of loneliness regardless of your situation.

 

I say "going to be a relief", but at the same time I know I will cry when I will be saying goodbye -- just typing this is making me tear. I know the people around me appreciate the work I have provided, and this is important to me. But it's time to move on.

 

I mentioned the way I feel about the antidepressant. I think these may be good to deal with overwhelming feelings and sort things out, but they aren't a magical "feel good" pill that fixes everything, as much as certain people want you to believe that mental health is "all in your head" and that things can be fixed just by altering neurotransmitter levels, ignoring all systemic and environmental factors.

[Arisotura]

Also, something related to HRT.

 

Last year I had bloodwork done in June, and my estradiol level was weirdly high given my dosage -- it was within pregnant range. I was taking the same dosage I'd been taking for years, 4mg/day, 2mg at noon and 2mg before bed, via buccal route. It had always worked well, my estradiol level was well within normal range. But last June it was somehow in pregnant range. With my endo we thought it might just have been a fluke.

 

Now I had another test a while ago and my estradiol level was even higher. So we reduced the dosage to 2mg/day.

 

Makes sense to reduce the dosage, but I hope this isn't caused by the lab messing up somehow. It doesn't seem too likely that they would mess up like that twice in a row after so long. But I'm a bit concerned about ending up with a level too low -- as I'm recovering from withdrawals, a low E level and the accompanying sh*tty mood is the last thing I need.

 

I kinda wonder how my metabolism could have changed in such a way. I kinda want to try taking two blood tests, at my usual lab and at another lab, and see if there's a huge difference.

[Arisotura]

So this is it. My job is officially terminated now.

 

It feels weird.

 

On one hand, it'll let me rest and open a new field of possibilities for me. On the other hand, on my last day, I put my keys on the boss' desk before leaving, and I cried.

 

Not really a bad thing, just me being my usual emotional self. Time has come to start a new page of this story.

 

Appropriately, I'm turning 30 tomorrow.

 

Time flies sometimes.

 

The future feels so uncertain, scary, but also carrying possibilities.

 

I don't know.

 

-

 

I'm so tired today. The withdrawals seem to be calming down, but my sleep still feels shallow and not very restful.

[Arisotura]

I'm depressed now...

 

I've noted that many times my depression thoughts have been proven wrong: that I would never get a job, that I would never get out of the squats, etc.

 

But there was one: that I would still be single by 30. And this one is going to be proven true.

 

All I've had so far have been one-time chance events and other non-relationships.

 

I guess I just have no redeeming qualities as a human. That, plus the fact I'm trans; my chances are practically nil.

 

And now I don't even know where I would find people my age who might be open to dating. At this age, people are getting married and have a baby in the pipeline. I feel that I have missed my time.

 

I had kinda already given up on this. Because deep down I just can't imagine meeting someone who might be interested into me.

 

-

 

I'm going to celebrate my 30th birthday alone and sad, like the pathetic loner I am.

[yoshi4844]

@Arisotura Happy birthday! As a birthday gift, I am going to be honest.

 

You have to try your absolute best to have faith. You have to be your own biggest fan rather than your own biggest hater. Don't give up but also don't put a hard deadline on yourself. When it comes to relationships, I am told you are supposed to try your absolute hardest to improve yourself and to not be afraid to put yourself out there. 

 

I've never been in a relationship but I don't let it define me or how I feel. If your judgement on others (or yourself) is based on whether they have a relationship or not, it is a really bad metric for character.

 

My uncle didn't have his first relationship (and wife) until his late 50's. I now have a cousin way younger than my nephews and nieces 0_o.

 

I wish you the best but the only one who can start changing is yourself. It all starts with your mindset. You owe it to yourself because deep down you know you deserve better. : )

[Arisotura]

Thank you.

 

I don't know. I feel skipped over, ignored -- most people my age have, or have had atleast one relationship. But me? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

 

You know why I never try anything? If someone is interested into me they will need to show it in an explicit way. If I don't see explicit signals, I'm not going to try anything, because I know I would get rejected.

 

But obviously, nobody is interested into me in the first place, so this never happens.

[Onmyway]

@Arisotura you really need to engage in CBT either with a therapist or on your own - I have recommended a book above, I believe if you need more recommendations then let me know. There are online free courses of this as well. 

https://cogbtherapy.com/free-online-cbt-workbook

 

If you want an assignment - please identify every cognitive distortion that you have and some of the rules and core beliefs you live by in the last two messages. 

 

And Happy Birthday! 

 

[Arisotura]

CBT will not change any of this. All it will do is add more mess to my brain. It won't make people suddenly want to develop relationships with me.

 

I have been to therapy for more than one year already, and all that for no gain.

 

I've been whining about the same **** for what, 10 years now. I will never change at this rate, this is part of who I am. I'm feeling completely defeated. Zero progress, ever.

 

I'm sorry.

[Onmyway]

Well, if you believe that, then OK. It is up to you what you do with the resources you have. The only person you can change is you, not others. If you "keep whining about the same ****" that is all it is going to be; if you do the work, you may see change. Up to you which path you pick. Therapists can't change you, YOU have to change you. If you don't want to develop relationships with others, why would other people want to develop relationships with you. 

 

People have interacted here with you and posted on your thread, yet you haven't gone to post back on theirs or check on them. Care requires reciprocity. Nobody in life owes you anything other than your parents for the first 18 years. After that if you are kind and caring people may be kind of caring (not a guarantee of course) but I don't see you making any efforts. 

 

You have a choice in this. Things don't just happen to you. You make things happen as well. What will you choose to make happen?

[Arisotura]

It's dishonest to claim I don't care about others, or that I haven't posted in their threads, because I have. I also look at some threads sometimes but I don't feel I have anything of value to add, and it also takes a lot of brain power to parse all that is going on.

 

I'm mostly referring to irl relationships anyway. I always feel that my efforts are met with indifference or avoidance. I genuinely don't see what I can do.

 

I feel stuck.

 

I see people are getting frustrated with me now. I'm sorry. I should leave.

 

Foolish me, thinking I could recover.

[yoshi4844]

It already sounds like you made your mind up about yourself, which is a shame. 

 

The first step is to stop feeling sorry for yourself.

 

ALSO your standards are way too high. What signal is explicit? What signal isn't worthy of your time? Why should someone approach you, if you are too scared to approach others? Relationships are about both parties giving, it only sounds like your only concern is what they can do for you.