Sunnydays0912: scared to taper from Lexapro and Seroquel. Help!

[sunnydays0912]

The mental fog has come and gone over the months. Before starting the taper I had been in a pretty stable state aside from side effects of a too high dose. The fog has been a issue again since starting the taper. I figure it's something I'm just going to have to deal with.

 

I'm sorry I seem to just frustrate everyone, in person and online. I just want to learn from this site and be supported in person. But I struggle with both.

 

I just want to be well again and function on my own. And stop being a problem for everyone. I liked it when I didn't need to count on anybody. Made it easier to accept no one was really there.

 

I won't bother anyone with my questions anymore. Thanks everyone for doing what you could.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Good. Now you can concentrate on the path you decide to take and come here and give us updates on how it is going. That's is always great to hear. This board is great for supporting you when you fail and cheering you when you succeed. We're sick too. Hand holding is not our strong suit.

[Skyler]

once I learn something that is very helpful and makes sense and let's me feel content, the mental fog comes in.

 

And I have 2 cautions. 1 is I simply can not let WD get so bad that I lose most of my functioning. I can't do that to my family. So when WD gets bad, I get scared and fear I'll have to reinstate.

Hi Sunny.. how about using index cards. Write down the most salient information about the doses, etc. and keep it in front of you.

 

This is your anxiety talking. Both you and we are listening to your body. There is no absolute here... it sounds like you have both side effects and withdrawal symptoms. This is not an either or situation, nor is it all that infrequent to find the two co-occur. The side effects are probably dose dependent, so as you taper (I'm sure this was covered above), you may be able to cut your dose in half in the first few months and those symptoms should diminish. If you taper too fast you will find the WD symptoms become worse than the side effects.

 

If you lose your train of thought your body is always there to remind you what is best..

 

Hope this helps some.

[Meimeiquest]

If this feels uncomfortable, please ignore....some churches host a group calls MOPS, Mothers of Preschoolers. You can google if interested. Have a great weekend!

[bubble]

Just coming in to give you some support. 

 

I must say I also get frustrated by detailed ruminations but I understand it is your way. Sometimes it just gets too much for me. But I see great improvements and developments in your way of thinking. You've come a long way (and you still have a long way to go). And Alto helped you immensely in that but I totally understand that she feels overwhelmed at the moment. (at one point I simply couldn't contribute any more so just read what Alto wrote admiring her patience). 

 

I wanted to tell you that people who care about us often tell us things we don't want to hear but which offer us an opportunity to learn and grow. 

 

And there are some of us here who do hold hands

 

I would also like to say that I find most answers to my questions by reading other people's threads rather than being focused on myself. Any thread you open will resonate and answer some of your questions. You will be surprised. Also you will see your patterns reflected in others more clearly. That's for me a great, great value of this forum. 

 

I like very, very much what skyler wrote to you. So go back reading what she wrote many times.

 

I think you will be in pain and suffering no matter what you do No amount of ruminations can shield you from that. And I completely understand that having little beings depending on you makes the situation a lot more complex. But this is also an opportunity to learn how to take from others and not only give. We are not self-sufficient nor should we strive for that. We have to learn how to live with others.

 

Along with the inevitability of pain, regardless of what you decide, you will manage it. It won't be easy but you will do it. Now you know a lot, lot more than before and you can succeed. 

 

I want to add once again: reading about (and reacting to) other people instead of focusing on myself has been a great thing for me. Please try it out!

 

also, we do hold hands but have our limits. Be who you are and we will react.

 

hug!

[Meimeiquest]

Sunny, I mean this in an encouraging way...I found a website that holds out hope in actually understanding and nutritionally healing genetically-based mental symptoms. I don't know you at all, and I am not saying you are in that category, but I know that has added to your worries. I really, really hope to go as soon as I can, and I will let you know if I learn anything useful. Of course, this has nothing to do with withdrawal....hang in there one day at a time!

[sunnydays0912]

Good. Now you can concentrate on the path you decide to take and come here and give us updates on how it is going. That's is always great to hear. This board is great for supporting you when you fail and cheering you when you succeed. We're sick too. Hand holding is not our strong suit.

I actually woke up this morning with this same idea. Instead of using this journal thread to ask questions, I'll simply post updates on how my recovery is going. That way I won't expect others to tell me what to do next, yet I will still have the watchful eye of many experts and experienced members of this website to chime in when you read something that may need to be addressed. But I won't expect hand holding anymore. I see now how I could get out of hand. In the moment I seriously don't see it and that worries me. I'm hoping it's just a WD/AE thing because I know I can be a anxious person, but not out of control insane lol.

 

I think there are just times I feel so alone and scared in this that I panic and look to anyone or anything to cling to and tell me everything will be okay. Sometimes I wish my husband would do this even though he doesn't understand it at all. He is such a factual person so he'd never just give me a hug and tell me I'll get through it. It's not his way. And normally I'm fine with that. Except for when I really do just need someone to hold me and let me cry out my worries.

 

I'm a bad self soother. I need to work on it. That or adopt a big cuddly dog who will let me cry as much as I need lol.

[sunnydays0912]

 

once I learn something that is very helpful and makes sense and let's me feel content, the mental fog comes in.

 

And I have 2 cautions. 1 is I simply can not let WD get so bad that I lose most of my functioning. I can't do that to my family. So when WD gets bad, I get scared and fear I'll have to reinstate.

Hi Sunny.. how about using index cards. Write down the most salient information about the doses, etc. and keep it in front of you.

 

This is your anxiety talking. Both you and we are listening to your body. There is no absolute here... it sounds like you have both side effects and withdrawal symptoms. This is not an either or situation, nor is it all that infrequent to find the two co-occur. The side effects are probably dose dependent, so as you taper (I'm sure this was covered above), you may be able to cut your dose in half in the first few months and those symptoms should diminish. If you taper too fast you will find the WD symptoms become worse than the side effects.

 

If you lose your train of thought your body is always there to remind you what is best..

 

Hope this helps some.

Thanks for the idea. I have gone back and read a lot of my thread and already so much of the information given to me makes more sense now thanks to my further understanding and learning bout this syndrome.

 

I seem to struggle with finding that thin line between what is realistically happening and what is just my anxiety getting the best of me. I've written this down as another CBT need in fact.

 

Thanks for understanding.

[sunnydays0912]

Just coming in to give you some support.

 

I must say I also get frustrated by detailed ruminations but I understand it is your way. Sometimes it just gets too much for me. But I see great improvements and developments in your way of thinking. You've come a long way (and you still have a long way to go). And Alto helped you immensely in that but I totally understand that she feels overwhelmed at the moment. (at one point I simply couldn't contribute any more so just read what Alto wrote admiring her patience).

 

I wanted to tell you that people who care about us often tell us things we don't want to hear but which offer us an opportunity to learn and grow.

 

And there are some of us here who do hold hands

 

I would also like to say that I find most answers to my questions by reading other people's threads rather than being focused on myself. Any thread you open will resonate and answer some of your questions. You will be surprised. Also you will see your patterns reflected in others more clearly. That's for me a great, great value of this forum.

 

I like very, very much what skyler wrote to you. So go back reading what she wrote many times.

 

I think you will be in pain and suffering no matter what you do No amount of ruminations can shield you from that. And I completely understand that having little beings depending on you makes the situation a lot more complex. But this is also an opportunity to learn how to take from others and not only give. We are not self-sufficient nor should we strive for that. We have to learn how to live with others.

 

Along with the inevitability of pain, regardless of what you decide, you will manage it. It won't be easy but you will do it. Now you know a lot, lot more than before and you can succeed.

 

I want to add once again: reading about (and reacting to) other people instead of focusing on myself has been a great thing for me. Please try it out!

 

also, we do hold hands but have our limits. Be who you are and we will react.

 

hug!

Ruminations....I confess I had to look that word up. And it explains me perfectly. Again, it's like my anxiety self won't let me just settle down and stick with the plan. I keep thinking, looking for answers, almost obsess. I do feel a great deal of that is stemming from my fear of making a wrong move again because of how adversely previous wrong moves have affected my whole existence. And then the mental fog doesn't help with allowing me to keep focused on what's important, what I feel confident about. And it leaves so much space for "what if"s!

 

So here's to making a point of slowing down when I feel my thoughts racing in my head of fog. I swear that's why I'm so inattentive. Drives me nuts.

 

Thanks for your continued support Bubble . OH! And I did realize that reading other peoples threads is really helpful! I think it's Skylers thread alone I've already learned a great deal of what I've been trying to find out for a while now. I really like Rhi. She (he?) seems to have a wealth of knowledge in all of this!

[Skyler]

So here's to making a point of slowing down when I feel my thoughts racing in my head of fog. I swear that's why I'm so inattentive. Drives me nuts.

 

Thanks for your continued support Bubble . OH! And I did realize that reading other peoples threads is really helpful! I think it's Skylers thread alone I've already learned a great deal of what I've been trying to find out for a while now. I really like Rhi. She (he?) seems to have a wealth of knowledge in all of this!

Hi Sunny, One thing that will help... at least on the forum, make sure your replies focus on the contents of the post you are addressing. You have a tendency to start doing that, but then your obsessive thoughts (anxiety) take over and you go off on a tangent. When this happens, you end up invalidating feedback you start out accepting. This is one of the reasons folks are so frustrated.

 

You might have a good response to insight therapy. Your issues appear to be deep seated and the anxiety you feel is a symptom of inner disquiet.

 

My thread? My journey has been circuitous, but successful via the 'turtle' route.

[sunnydays0912]

Ok so I need to make note of yesterday. I had a very good day! I'm trying to figure out if it was a window or simply we were just quite busy so I didn't have much time to think.

 

I woke up earlier than I have been recently (my son has severe sleep apnea that has worsen in the recent months, so he often doesn't fall asleep deeply until 11 or 12. He's having his tonsils removed in June to hopefully correct this) so because of this, we have been getting up around 10-11 every morning for the last week or so (before that the usual time was 9am-9:30). And I've been wondering if waking up so late, even when we normally do, has been making things worse. Despite letting myself and the kids sleep in later so we can all get a good nights rest which I know is important for recovery, I seem to be waking right in the part of my day that feels the worst. But with my sons sleep issues, I didn't know what to do.

 

Anyway, yesterday I got up at 8 in order to get things ready for the day which included Easter egg hunts at the park and other fun holiday stuff. I always assumed if I woke up any earlier, causing less sleep, I'd inevitably be asking for a bad day. I got about 5 hours of sleep the night before which I react badly to even before I crashed. So I was concerned.

 

However, I ended up waking up easier and with a better mood than I have in a long time! I was able to feel productive and excited for the day and ran a few errands while the kids and husband stayed in bed. I had energy and just felt good! Oh, and no WD either. I could think pretty clearly and my eyelid tic was even more noticeably gone! It's been less since I started the taper, but yesterday, the whole day, it was almost totally gone.

 

Everything was going and feeling well. Until about 10am rolls around. I could feel my mood suddenly drop. It wasn't bad. My general feelings and emotions just dulled out, my enthusiasm was blunted. But because I had a couple hours of feeling well and able to feel the way I wanted to feel, I knew whatever wave was setting in was just that. A wave. And though waves have a way of changing the way you think, I knew whatever thoughts I had was the wave, not me.

 

That being said, it wasn't that bad! I was still able to function and act as normal (we were at a carnival) and despite some inner sadness and fatigue, I was still able to ignore it and enjoy things with my family.

 

Also to note, only depressed feelings came along. No brain fog. No dizziness. And my eyelid tic did not get worse! I think I only noticed a slight tic 2 or 3 times during the whole day! On average before it was frequent at every 3-5 minutes I'd feel it spasm with sporadic hour long breaks here and there.

 

I hadn't taken my Prozac dose yet either. So when I did take it, I made sure to watch and notice if the dizziness and fog followed again soon after. However because it was a busier day, I was having trouble paying attention. Which I'm not at all complaining about. It was WONDERFUL being able to focus my attention elsewhere for once. But I never noticed any added fog or dizziness, just some fatigue which could have easily been caused by our busy morning.

 

Around 1pm I went to put my daughter down for a nap and ended up falling asleep with her. Which, also, was great because one sure sign my NS is off is I can't nap during the day, and if I do I always wake up panicked and anxious. I was able to fall asleep easy and woke up relaxed, with maybe a hint of anxiety but I think it was over my worry it would come. I otherwise woke up fine. I never get to take naps during the week because my son doesn't nap, so weekends when my husband is home is the only time I get to test this out .

 

After the nap, unfortunately, my husband and I got into a argument...we haven't been getting along so well lately (most the time totally fine and happy, but he's also had a short fuse lately for really small stuff) and he got upset by something totally not enough to warrant it, so it set me off. I told him I was sick of how he was so easily overreacting to things not worth getting worked up over lately and I didn't want to be around him until he realized he overreacted and apologized. So I took my daughter and left to my neighbors house a few apartments down, the only real friend I have out here.

 

She was next door to another neighbor I know pretty well, but again, not enough to unload all my troubles on. I kind of went over there knowing I was going to need to let them know what was going on because I needed support. Which is the first time I've been confident enough to do since moving out here. My friend neighbor knows about my medication problems, since she stopped taking celexa cold turkey back in August of last year and she suffered through 6 weeks of WD's before leveling out and feeling like her old self again. So though she understands, to an extent since she did recover, she also isn't always around and has a very busy life of her own so it's tough to go to her that often.

 

Anyway, as soon as I got there they both could tell I was upset. When they asked what's wrong I couldn't help but start crying and they have me hugs and took me in and immediately began consoling and supporting me. It was so nice...I was so embarrassed, but knew I needed this.

 

It's hard to talk to someone who's in a nearly perfect marriage (she and her husband are nearly the same exact person) but the other neighbor was older and divorced and her ex husband was a complete A-Hole, so she was able to really understand and give advice and tell me how I may think he's the worst right now, but had me look at things in a different perspective, especially when comparing him to her ex husband, which helped me not feel like he and I are doomed. Because that's how I was feeling. My worst nightmare is for he and I to split up. Firstly because I love him and he is my best friend. He has his faults, all men do, but it hasn't been until this stupid AD mess began that he has really started upsetting me with his lack of support and understanding. And yesterday I felt that divorce could actually be possible for the first time in our marriage and imagining the outcome of that was absolutely devastating...made me realize how important my family is to me and how much I want to be a team with my husband. And my neighbor helped me see this isn't enough to be "the end" at all. We've just hit some bumps in the road, all marriages do.

 

The point to all this? Is after they helped me feel better, I realized I was reacting to everything normally. I was feeling genuine worry, upset, anxiety, and reacting to it all appropriately. I felt normal. And after I started feeling better, I was able to laugh and joke around with them. It was SO NICE. And my husband and I worked it out soon after. I then got to get all the Easter Bunny stuff ready for my kids. I just felt normal...and I wonder if it's because my mind was so preoccupied, or it was a legitimate window and sign that I'm stabilizing.

 

Today i woke up feeling worse. But we had a verrrry crazy night because my daughter has come down with a bad cold and kept us up so much of the night so I think I only got about 4 hours of sleep last night. And I also woke up at 10:30am which could have been right when my usual daily wave begins. But I did feel low, but again no dizziness, fog, and eyelid tic has also still been very very mild today!

 

I continue to have mini waves and windows today. Nothing drastic. Could just be sleep deprivation. At least I hope. But I'm going to say as far as WD goes, it's on the upside now.

 

Oh, and one thing I did sort of worry may be the cause of my feeling better yesterday was I took my dose a little differently. I usually take 40mg of caps. and dump it into a small cup then use my 10mL oral syringe to add 40mL water and mix. Then I would just take out 36mL and put it in another cup and discard the remaining 4mL. Because there is so much extra measuring this way, I finally realized if I just syringe out 4mL from the cup I mixed originally, it would be easier and more accurate.

 

So I almost worry that by doing that for the first time yesterday, maybe I somehow took in more of the Prozac powder than usual, which could have caused the upswing of WD symptoms? BUT I was having a good day before ever taking my daily dose which was at 11:30am. So I'm hopeful that's not the case. Despite previously syringing out 36mL, I was very careful to make sure the measurements were exact.

 

So we'll see!

[sunnydays0912]

 

So here's to making a point of slowing down when I feel my thoughts racing in my head of fog. I swear that's why I'm so inattentive. Drives me nuts.

 

Thanks for your continued support Bubble . OH! And I did realize that reading other peoples threads is really helpful! I think it's Skylers thread alone I've already learned a great deal of what I've been trying to find out for a while now. I really like Rhi. She (he?) seems to have a wealth of knowledge in all of this!

Hi Sunny, One thing that will help... at least on the forum, make sure your replies focus on the contents of the post you are addressing. You have a tendency to start doing that, but then your obsessive thoughts (anxiety) take over and you go off on a tangent. When this happens, you end up invalidating feedback you start out accepting. This is one of the reasons folks are so frustrated.

 

You might have a good response to insight therapy. Your issues appear to be deep seated and the anxiety you feel is a symptom of inner disquiet.

 

My thread? My journey has been circuitous, but successful via the 'turtle' route.

I'll keep that in mind. I think a big reason I do that is because of how much I'm thinking about it, so I come up with too many possible outcomes which in turn make me very anxious and I have no other outlet. I've got to get that under control.

 

Edited to add again that I have a new post on the page before this new one. Just in case anyone cares to read an update

[sunnydays0912]

Eyelid tic extremely improved still. I'd say 95% improvement. Only noticed a very tiny spasm twice yesterday. Mood was also better and thinking pretty clear.

 

I like the way this is headed if my condition seems to continue to stabilize in the next few days, should I attempt another 10% drop sooner? Or is it best to wait the first full month?

[bubble]

Eyelid tic extremely improved still. I'd say 95% improvement. Only noticed a very tiny spasm twice yesterday. Mood was also better and thinking pretty clear.

 

I like the way this is headed if my condition seems to continue to stabilize in the next few days, should I attempt another 10% drop sooner? Or is it best to wait the first full month?

 

Dear Sunny!

 

if you allow me a joke, this looks like a very well written and to the point post

 

I'm very happy for your window (but you know there are waves in this story as well ;( That's why it is important to remember this window to help you make it through the next wave knowing it's possible to feel good and that it will come again and last longer.

 

Let's wait and see how the things develop over the next few days. All I know is that it is a very positive reaction.

 

And I know you will listen to the advice here so that it continues in the positive way....

[dalsaan]

Wait the month. Give your body a rest

[sunnydays0912]

 

Eyelid tic extremely improved still. I'd say 95% improvement. Only noticed a very tiny spasm twice yesterday. Mood was also better and thinking pretty clear.

I like the way this is headed if my condition seems to continue to stabilize in the next few days, should I attempt another 10% drop sooner? Or is it best to wait the first full month?

 

 

Dear Sunny!

 

if you allow me a joke, this looks like a very well written and to the point post

 

I'm very happy for your window (but you know there are waves in this story as well ;( That's why it is important to remember this window to help you make it through the next wave knowing it's possible to feel good and that it will come again and last longer.

 

Let's wait and see how the things develop over the next few days. All I know is that it is a very positive reaction.

 

And I know you will listen to the advice here so that it continues in the positive way....

Har har, Bubble

 

I told you that when I'm not in severe WD or adverse effects I'm actually not that crazy lol. My mind is able to rest and not go off the deep end of anxious thoughts. That being said, I've always been a very expressive person. I don't know why. Wait, yes I do! My dad is an extremely expressive and detailed story teller. I grew up listening to his stories with so much detail and enthusiasm. Of course that's where I get it from

  

Wait the month. Give your body a rest

I will. I did notice today (er....technically yesterday) that my afternoon wasn't as great. So I know not to jump the gun on this now. Have to listen to my body.

[sunnydays0912]

Speaking of listening to my body, I do have a concern I'm trying to get over. I'm just hoping someone could relate and help me understand what is happening.

 

So my thinking has definitely changed a lot about what is happening to me and why. I now believe it's the medication, not me. However, there is this one...symptom? That I've always dealt with when trying to start or stabilize on my medication. And it's the way my mood/thinking changes depending what time if day it is.

 

Now, I understand the anxiety and agitation and cortisol attack that happens as soon as you wake up and persists until sometime later in the day is definitely a reaction to the drugs, be it adverse effect or WD. But I'm not experiencing that this time thanks to the slower taper. But what I am experiencing is a depressive state, which I explained in my earlier post from last Saturday, that seems to come around later morning and hang around until later evening.

 

Even in the last couple days I've been feeling better, I've still be dealing with this funk I fall into that isn't strong, but it is still affecting my daily life. And it's not new. It has been around since I first flip flopped my meds. I just was dealing with anxiety so long that that was my main focus, and then when depressive symptoms were so strong it was a all day thing. However, throughout everything, night time has always been my best time. It's why I haven't had any insomnia issues. By night, even at my absolute worst, at some point I'd be able to calm down and feel a bit more like myself again. It's like a reminder that the normal me still exists!

 

Thing is, the only "normal me" I know has been the medicated for the last 4.5 years me. As you all know, I was happy with how I was while stable those 4 years before all this mess. So I'm sure it's understandable that I may worry some that I'll never get back to that version of me again. But I've also been working with my thoughts to be more encouraging and believing I will be able to be the way I was again without medications help. And at night? I feel pretty confident about that.

 

It's during the day that I lose that confidence. It's during this time that I always second guessed everything and my old thinking of "it's my illness coming back, I need meds, I'm doomed" would overwhelm and be very convincing. And even now, despite growing and learning so much now, those old feelings find their way into my head. I'm better able to stop them from overwhelming me and am able to keep them controlled, thank Goodness. But for so long, whenever this has happened, doctors have always told me the day time is my normal self coming through, and the evenings is when the medication is able to make a stronger effect and stabilize me. And as the medication builds up in my system, it will start working earlier and earlier in the day until it works all the time.

 

I guess what I'm trying to do is reteach my brain that the night time me is actually the real me, and the day time me is either adverse effects or WD at it's strongest. So whatever I think or feel during the day is not me, it's the effects of the meds.

 

The reason I'm concerned is because the depressive feelings I get are feelings of general don't care. I'm still dealing with the demotivation, loss of interest, dulled emotions and reactions. And despite the foggy head and bad memory starting to really back off, these depressive thoughts and feelings are trying to linger as long as they can. And so of course my old way of thinking is trying to tell me this is the real me. And the relief I get at night is just the Prozac actually working, just like I always thought with my meds stabilizing in the past.

 

I really don't like these feelings of disinterest in life and like I just don't want to do anything anymore. I know I've mentioned them here before, except they were much stronger and scary in the previous months. But it's like during the day I just don't see or feel things like I do at night and I want help knowing it's the opposite of what I've always been told, that day time is WD and night time is me!

 

So does this sound familiar with anyone else? It can be so annoying because at night I'll finally feel like doing things and make plans for the next day like I get excited about planning my sons party and doing a craft but then the next day comes and I just don't feel the same about it. I guess it turns into more of a chore feeling than joy feeling that I feel at night.

 

I know time will tell, but if I could find any reassuring information now it would really help me stay positive and hopeful during the day so I can better ignore it and encourage myself that it will pass and my real self is the one I know at night.

 

Am I making sense?

[bubble]

Hi Sunny,

 

I don't know the exact mechanism of how this happens but I read a lot of people describing the same pattern: cortisol waking up and morning followed by a small window and then depression kicking in and tearing like clouds towards the evening.

 

I can't remember where on the site this is described but if you read around you will find many examples. (and a scientific explanation of the mechanism). 

 

From my perspective , you are lucky that you can even feel joy even if the next day you use enthusiasm (Petu actually wrote a lot about this so I warmly recommend her thread).

 

I survive by focusing on those moments when I actually can do things and just clench my teeth in bad moments - this will pass, this will pass.

 

You are using a lot of nice language such as listening to your body, etc.

 

I was thinking we could make a challenge of a sort for you: holding at 36 mg for 30 days no matter what. No matter what your afternoon self tells you. Just replying: sorry, can't be done. You'll have to wait. Trying not to think what if this or that. Of curse you will inevitably start thinking like that but won't act on it.

 

What do you think

[sunnydays0912]

Hi Sunny,

 

I don't know the exact mechanism of how this happens but I read a lot of people describing the same pattern: cortisol waking up and morning followed by a small window and then depression kicking in and tearing like clouds towards the evening.

 

I can't remember where on the site this is described but if you read around you will find many examples. (and a scientific explanation of the mechanism).

 

From my perspective , you are lucky that you can even feel joy even if the next day you use enthusiasm (Petu actually wrote a lot about this so I warmly recommend her thread).

 

I survive by focusing on those moments when I actually can do things and just clench my teeth in bad moments - this will pass, this will pass.

 

You are using a lot of nice language such as listening to your body, etc.

 

I was thinking we could make a challenge of a sort for you: holding at 36 mg for 30 days no matter what. No matter what your afternoon self tells you. Just replying: sorry, can't be done. You'll have to wait. Trying not to think what if this or that. Of curse you will inevitably start thinking like that but won't act on it.

 

What do you think

Lol in a way that's what I'm trying to do. I don't want to change my dose or anything. I just want to believe myself more during the day. I've been quite successfully brain washed by doctors!

 

Today marks 2 weeks since I began my taper. We will see where I'm at in 2 weeks

[sunnydays0912]

Today is different. I'm a zombie. But not a bad zombie. As in, not depressed. Just no energy. There is a lot of stuff I want to do bit the getting up and go part is not there. I'm hoping it's because of another bad night of sleep. I'm sure that's it. I wish I could have a solid nights sleep.

[bubble]

I have to say I've found it as a (pleasant) surprise that you've been steady for 2 weeks! Way to go! Another 2 weeks and you will have made it, conquered yourself. 

 

I know this is hard but nobody said tapering and WD is a walk in the park. It's probably one of the most excruciating human experiences so give yourself some credit for this, keep things in the perspective. You are doing something that requires heroic efforts, it's hard but you are managing.

 

Also, there are so many people on this forum who can't get a wink for days and some even for weeks and they feel blessed when they can fall asleep even for an hour. Broken sleep is not nice but compared to insomnia, it's a blessing of a sort.

 

You are doing it and you will do it.

 

I will post you know what one member btdt wrote recently and what I liked a lot. For me it describes a very important surviving skill in these times. focus on things you can do and not on those that you can't.

 

 

 

oh and just to clarify, alto has always told me i could recover while still on this half a mg, its many many others who have told me i cannot, of course, no one knows, and thats what makes me so sad....also yes i need to hear that i will recover, but i can never belive anyone who says it to me when i know that its not very likely in my case, and i know that from speaking to others who have it as bad as me, that they have not recovered...i know, i know, theres no talking to me, and no one can make those thoughts change unless the people 10 years out and still very sick get well, who knows, maybe thats possible

 

I want to know what symptoms they had that you have that lead you to believe you will not recover... cause I have not seen too many symptoms I have not had.. honestly I made a post about some but there has been so much there is no way I could recall or list it all.. I am dead serious. What are those symptoms?  

 

I want to put some perspective in here too

I use to think of my old self what I use to be able to do.. work three jobs get things I wanted had money... 

While I am recovered to a point I hope to recover more... 

I could not way in hell work these jobs now I can't work one... I have no money ... I don't expect to have money again like I once had but if it came I would spend it and if I heal enough I will work again am i there yet no I am not... 

 

BUT 

I can sleep every day...every single day I can sleep at least some if I miss a nights sleep I will crash in the day... I can sleep... I have not had a run of days without sleep in a couple of years now...this pleases me.. 

I can eat... most things should be a bit smarter about my diet I am please by this too

I can listen to music   it does not repeat in my head and it does not make me want to scream cry or run away... I like it now

I can generally tolerate light I can go outside and sit down - no more hiding from light... I do get migraines still sometime way too often but not all the time

I can think most of the time... 

I can move without having brain zaps or electrical shocks down my spine and body.. this is a huge relief... if I get sick or in a car accident my head goes funny I am dizzy and can have zaps I don't know why but they go away.. and they are not every minute 

 

This is a short list in no way exhaustive... it shows an improvement... waves if they come do not last for wks 

 

I no longer compare myself to other "normal" folks and yep that does suck.. I know what I have lost and I have a certain pot of bitterness about it all .. I really do and anger and few other things... but when I put my head in that pot and take a drink.. something I try to avoid... it only hurts me.. nobody else not pharma not the normals not the doctors 

 

I read a book once that helped me to get a handle on this it was called the power of now... it is says now is the only time that has any power this minute you in  this day this hour.. 

 

It really helped me and I had to practice that too.. is it fair now way in hell it is a f..... plague... 

what choice do I have no much all I can do is choose how I deal with it when I get to the how am I going to live with this point... 

 

This is a back and forth thing it takes some struggle it takes some time.. 

I know that pot in there I know I can reach in there and grab some anger ... when I read about others suffering sometimes it jumps out of the pot and runs down my throat... but mostly it stays in the pot unless I go to it. 

 

I found one thing in that power of now book... that is tomorrow counts to tomorrow and yesterday counted yesterday... 

 

All the things I may do tomorrow count then.. whatever and whoever I was in the past is in the past... 

now I am not saying others will adopt this ... I am just saying some day you can if you choose to. 

 

For now let the pressure to be "normal" go and love yourself regardless of how you are .. inside your still there you really are and one day you will know it.  

 

how did the tapping go?

 

[sunnydays0912]

Thanks Bubble there are times that I'm able to appreciate what I have again. When I was feeling at my worst, any feeling of appreciation towards my life in any form was impossible to feel. My husband would try to cheer me up with things like "look at your beautiful, healthy kids. Look at our plans. Look at how pretty you are. These are all such amazing gifts and you need to focus on the good you have in life" but no matter how I tried, I felt nothing. I was in the midst of my anhedonia.

 

I am so happy to say I can feel those feelings again. Still blunted, but the fact they're there at all is what gives me hope!

 

And sleep -- THANK GOD -- has not been my issue through all this. So I do realize how lucky I have it there. Any sleep issues I do have are caused by my kids lol. Otherwise I could sleep the night and morning away if I could . but I know how insomnia feels. It was the #1 problem I had after giving birth to my son. My anxiety over getting no sleep was so severe that it was causing me to not sleep. Going to bed was hours long panic attacks as I tried to relax and sleep. And then once finally falling asleep, minutes would pass and my son was awake crying again. It was maddening.

 

I fully believe that was the root issue to my PPD and PPA. I was so sleep deprived, it get as if my brain was taking on damage and thus caused all my issues that lead me running to my psychiatrist. If only I had a family member who would come and stay with me and help me get some sleep, I bet in time I would have recovered just from catching up on sleep.

 

So despite everything, I feel like being able to sleep is my one life line through what I've gone trough. Because if that was added to it, I'm sure I would have been in a psych. Ward. I'm so glad I never went to the ER during the worst of my adverse reactions of med change and poop out. I'm sure they would have put me on God knows what.

[sunnydays0912]

As I mentioned before, I'm a little worried the fact that I changed the way I take my daily dose may have accidentally reinstated a tiny amount of Prozac.

 

Before I was mixing 40mg with 40mL water and then just because of not thinking clearly, I would syringe out 36mL and put it into a separate cup where is then drink it. I never thought to just syringe out 4mL and discard that and drink the rest. That only requires one exact measures dose. Where as before I was measuring 3 doses of 10mL out, and then 6mL out. And though I tried to be exact, who knows how accurate it actually was.

 

So I started measuring out just one dose of 4mL and drinking the rest. And because I had a sudden relief from symptoms, I really truly hope that wasn't because of a slight reinstatement from a much more accurate measuring...

 

I say that because now a few days later, I've got some fog again, lack of energy, etc. I'm hoping it's just from the original continued half life still dropping. But the possibility of a reinstatement now wearing off is in the back of my head too.

 

And today I've got a on and off headache and minor periods of dizziness that I actually haven't experienced before. Oh, and my eyelid tic is slightly occurring more. Not bad. When it does happen, it's still a very mild spasm. But of course I worry it's because I may have added more Prozac that may be causing it to return slightly. But if not, and it's coming back for no reason, that's bothersome too.

 

I guess the only way I can look at it is I'm in a wave now, and hopefully it doesn't get any worse than this and a window will soon show itself again. Despite those symptoms today, I'm still feeling pretty ok and able to function just fine (considering). I'd really like to not get any worse so I don't have to hold at this dose longer than planned

[sunnydays0912]

So I'm starting to realize something. That timely depression I was talking about earlier? Where around 10am my general mood and thoughts change and I struggle to keep the depressive thoughts and feelings back? I think it is connected to morning anxiety/cortisol. The only reason I didn't think it was was because normally when I get the cortisol mornings, I wake up in a panic and my heart is racing and I literally can't get control of my thoughts and worries.

 

I think simply because it's a smaller drop, plus the adrenal block Prozac has affected me with, is making the difference. And so because there no physical symptoms of anxiety/cortisol, I only feel the worry and depression side of it. Which, truth be told, is much much easier to go through than the entire cortisol freak out.

 

So this is helpful in keeping my belief that it's the drug, not me. I know it's a nuisance, but a large part of my problem is my thoughts being affected from the anxiety. It's as if my confidence in myself disappears during the day. But in the evening and early morning I feel much more confident, relaxed, and believing that I'll get through this.

 

And as I try to get through this specific WD symptom, I really hope it does get better soon so I can taper on the faster-slow side than the slower-slow side. But realistically I should just be hopeful for recovery at all.

[dalsaan]

Its good to be mindful of how your thoughts are affected by anxiety, and how your anxiety is affected by your thoughts.   Its an entirely unhelpful feedback loop that happens in withdrawal.   The best you can do is name it and disengage

 

D

[sunnydays0912]

Its good to be mindful of how your thoughts are affected by anxiety, and how your anxiety is affected by your thoughts. Its an entirely unhelpful feedback loop that happens in withdrawal. The best you can do is name it and disengage

 

D

Absolutely. I'm really happy with the continued progress I've made with keeping my thoughts and anxieties in check. Better able to separate what is purely anxiety talking and what's really happening.

 

I began reading "Your Drug May Be Your Problem". I'm just getting through the beginning of it (I don't get much free time for reading) and already finding so much that relates to me! I've heard great things about this book and it's authors so I hope to learn a lot more!

[sunnydays0912]

So knock on wood, I think today was the start of a window! I noticed my mood and energy was pretty normal.

 

And some awesome news?? I did not notice my eyelid tic even ONCE today!!! This was the first day ever that I didn't notice it. It has really sparked such hope in me. I am so thankful. Even if it does come back again, I at least know it may just be like windows and waves and eventually go away for good.

 

I also have been noticing my feelings aren't as blunted as they were before! When things happen that need my immediate reaction, I respond. Whereas before, I'd get a delayed response, and usually it was like a "omg do I have to?" Feeling. I'm feeling the want and need to react coming back, it's amazing!

 

I'm honestly shocked by how much my side effects have improved already from such a small decrease. It really does give me hope that maybe I'm not off the deep end with how badly I've been affected by these drugs and so many changes recently. Maybe coming off -- as long as I do it with great care -- won't be the nightmare I'm expecting? I know there will still be waves, and I may think very differently during those, but having the response I'm having already will at least be proof I can do this and my body is liking the tapering.

 

Now, I've also been reading more about protracted WD and how it often comes 3-6 or more months later. It actually made me realize something. When I took Effexor XR in the summer of 2008 following the panic attack I had, and the very first moment on it caused me to have such a severe adverse reaction (which at the time was told it's just "start up anxiety and will go away". The extreme agitated depression and akathisia it produced in me was something I NEVER experienced before in my life. That's how I knew very obviously it was the drug. But was also young and dumb and believed my doctor that it was ok and common, so just ride it out.

 

Now, I did stabilize about 2-3 weeks later. And then was fine until 4 months later a normal life stressor occurred, a GOOD and EXCITING one -- my husband coming home from deployment! -- and the day before a lesser version of that start up agitated anxiety starting surfacing. I believe I was only on 75mg. But my point is, when it showed itself, I thought it was my anxiety disorder breaking through and getting worse and that my dose would most likely need to be brought up. I was 21 and that's just how it made sense to me. Thankfully the next day came, my husband came home, and all was well. I thought that it went away because it was situational to him coming home and I was fine now.

 

Problem is, I can't remember how fast I tapered off. I didn't even talk to my GP about it. I just did it and did it fast because we decided to try for our first baby. I'm pretty sure they were capsules too. So there's no way I could have made cuts to it. I'm pretty sure they were 75mg capsules. And all I know is I got pregnant very fast, finding out October 10th which I do believe was only 3 weeks after he returned. And a couple days later went to see my GP to have it confirmed and I remember telling her I was already almost off the Effexor XR, so not to worry about that. And then I'm pretty sure I was totally off it within the next week. I think I even said "I only take a dose when I feel dizzy" which scares me into thinking I just skipped days and would take full 75mg doses as needed when I felt any WD. And then just didn't feel any WD, so no longer took it.

 

Now, the reason this concerns me is because even though I ended up having a very normal pregnancy, aside from a few overreactions to worries I have always had trouble with, right around 7-8 months off Effexor XR that anxiety began showing itself again. And I'm pretty sure it was the same or at least similar to the adverse effect I'd felt after starting EXR, not my normal health anxiety. Because my health anxiety, though frustrating, I was able to manage and it didn't completely take over. And I think what triggered it was one night I have having trouble sleeping so I was watching some tv and the show Desperate Housewives came on. I had never seen it before, and it was the first episode, so I figured I'd give it a chance and see if I'd like it.

 

All of a sudden it's about this happy go lucky house wife who's running her errands and doing her chores looking as happy and care free as possible, and then at the end of the day she out of nowhere pulls out a gun and shoots herself!! I was shocked and my mind began racing, thinking about how I'm about to embark on a whole new life of being a mother and wife and have no idea how I will do, so what if I end up being like that character on the tv?? What if I hate my life so much I will want to kill myself??

 

And then my brother was at the exact same time really falling ill with Schizophrenia and what he was turning into was scaring me to death, so of course those fears also ran into my head at the same time that I will end up the same as him plus hate my life and want to just end it all one day. I went running to my husband in tears and frantic and couldn't calm down...I'd never reacted so irrationally in my life and I struggled to cope with the irrational fears and anxiety so bad and then I began feeling anxiety so bad again after that. I remember feeling restless, wanting to find distractions from my inner panic that I was feeling all day long. At the time I thought it was just my illness showing itself again, probably triggered by surging hormones getting ready for labor. And it was even more reason I believed I had a mental illness, which only continued into my postpartum recovery.

 

Anyway, I only dealt with it a couple days before I ended up going into labor. And all the sleeplessness and pain from that distracted me from feeling the anxiety, however it was back very shortly after giving birth. I was exhausted and scared and extremely emotional. BUT because I was in the mindset of my illness is coming back, I contributed all of my issues to that instead of just being postpartum, exhausted, tired, and needing support. And that's why within days I was being given EXR again (full 75mg dose) because the doctor felt I needed to resume my medication. And when it made my anxiety explode into adverse reaction again, that's when I was in such a bad state of mind that I couldn't sleep for nearly a whole week and couldn't calm down for even a second and couldn't stop thinking something was so wrong with me and I needed medical attention right away. I only took the dose that one time so I thought for sure everything following was just my illness, it couldn't be from that one pill I took, I thought. And of course NO ONE was telling me different.

 

Anyway, though I have known for a while now that I had a bad reaction to the EXR given to me in the hospital, everything else before it and following it I thought was me. My illness. My anxiety disorder. And that's why I thought I HAD to be on medication in order to survive. Now I'm thinking....could what have happened with my anxiety before going into labor actually had been the start of a delayed protracted WD from my WAY too fast taper of EXR months earlier??

 

And if so, could this mean I have even less of a anxiety disorder than I think?? Without a doubt I have always been a bit if a hypochondriac, but it was always within reason. I never experienced general feelings of anxiousness and overstimulation like that until I was put on that stupid EXR. But once it began to show itself again -- months after ever taking it -- I thought for sure it must be some chemical imbalance in my brain.

 

And then when I was put on Paxil, my pdoc at the time said it would not have any start up anxiety because it is much less stimulating than EXR. And she was right. I did ok starting it. But for some stupid reason decided a few weeks later to change to Lexapro since I knew I had done well on it before. And when she bridged me from Paxil to Lexapro is when the sudden suicidality depression quickly appeared. Without a doubt I knew it was a reaction to the meds, and my pdoc even confirmed it as stating it to be a "start up side effect and will go away". I stupidlyyyyyyy just listened to her and kept taking it. But I did it because I thought I had too much of a mental illness to not take anything.

 

And despite coming to terms with knowing it was situational to my struggles becoming a mom so fast and with no help, I still thought the anxiety was my illness. But now I'm seriously thinking it may all be connected to when I first took that stupid, God damned EXR the summer before, coming off it too fast, and thus my CNS was changed so much that months down the road I completely lost it with one irrational fear I had.

 

Does this sound likely? Possible? Or could I be stretching too much here? I'm almost afraid to believe it because that means my CNS has been out of whack since the summer of 2008 and I've done nothing but put a band aid over it since until I stressed my CNS out one time too much with the medication flip flop in September and boom, poop out and my CNS finally came crashing down, resulting in the worst depression and inability to cope or function at all.

 

Sorry to make another super long post, but it really helps me to make sense of things when I can write it all out.

 

This brings up more questions. Where can I learn more about what is truly believed to happen to the brain when medication poops out? I just feel I need to make more sense of how and why my brain reacted so badly.

 

In fact, any information on what is happening to our brains when the medication alters it, what happens when it poops out, and what happens that causes WD. And of course I know that no one knows for sure, but I've seen bits and pieces of information posted here about what (at least this site) believes is happening and causing us to suffer. But I can't find anything that gives a solid explanation.

 

I do hope Alto may reconsider her decision to avoid my thread, at least for this one post, since I know she is the one so well informed and able to answer. Bnt if she doesn't, I understand. I just hope someone will!

[bubble]

Hi there Sunny!

 

first of all: very, very happy about your window! (and awareness that windows come with waves but also a promise you will remmeber this window when a wave comes

 

there seems to be a new person posting under your name recently, if you allow me a joke

 

new insights, new way of thinking - very promising!

 

IMAGINE there is no such thing as anxiety "disorder", iMAGINE there are just various circumstances and experiences that make people feel anxious... (it's easy if you try... John Lennon)

 

And don't worry about the passage of time: my particular CNS has been out of wack since the summer of 1996, for some people who healed even longer... 

 

If I understand your question well, there is an explanation that Rhi wrote that explained this thing for me.

 

A lot of people, including healthcare practitioners; in fact, I guess, most people-- are operating from entirely the wrong paradigm, or way of thinking, about these meds. They're thinking of them like aspirin--as something that has an effect when it's in your system, and then when it gets out of your system the effect goes away.

That's not what happens with medications that alter neurotransmitter function, we are learning.

What happens when you change the chemistry of the brain is, the brain adjusts its chemistry and structure to try to return to homeostasis, or biochemical and functional balance. It tries to restabilize the chemistry. 

For example: SSRI antidepressants work as "serotonin reuptake inhibitors." That is, they cause serotonin to remain in the space between neurons, rather than being taken back up into the cells to be re-used, like it would be in a normal healthy nondrugged brain.

So the brain, which wants to re-establish normal signaling and function, adapts to the higher level of serotonin between neurons (in the "synapse", the space between neurons where signals get passed along). It does this by removing serotonin receptors, so that the signal is reduced and changed to something closer to normal. It also decreases the amount of serotonin it produces overall. 

To do that, genes have to be turned on and off; new proteins have to be made; whole cascades of chemical reactions have to be changed, which means turning on and off OTHER genes; cells are destroyed, new cells are made; in other words, a complex physiologic remodeling takes place. This takes place over time. The brain does not grow and change rapidly. 

This is a vast oversimplification of the amount of adaptation that takes place in the brain when we change its normal chemistry, but that's the principle.

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay.

When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse.

SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. 

It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. 

I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long. 

With multiple drugs and a history of drug changes and cold turkeys, all of this becomes even more complicated. And if a person is started on these kinds of drugs at an early age before the brain has ever completely established normal mature functioning--well, it can't be good. (All of which is why I recommend an extremely slow taper particularly to anyone with a multiple drug history, a history of many years on meds, a history of past cold turkeys or frequent med changes, and a history of being put on drugs at a young age.)

This isn't intended to scare people, but hopefully to give you some idea of what's happening, and to help you respect and understand the process so you can work with it; ALSO, because you are likely to encounter many, many people who still believe these drugs work kind of like aspirin, or a glass of wine, and all you need to do is stop and get it out of your system. 

Now you can explain to them that no, getting it out of your system is not the issue; the issue is, you need to regrow or at least remodel your brain. This is a long, slow, very poorly understood process, and it needs to be respected. 

[sunnydays0912]

Thanks Bubble! That was very informative! I admit I wish Rhi would come and give her 2 cents about my particular situation.

 

That is how I'm starting to understand it now too. And I'm getting so much more upset over the fact that I was started on these meds at 17 over MILD social anxiety! How could that doctor in his right mind start me on such a strong medication for something so small? And I stupidly just kept taking it for 2 years. It was never an issue to any doctor.

 

My only hope to that is that despite coming off lexapro when I was 19, I did function normally until I was 21 and had that very situational panic attack which lead my stupid GP to put me on EXR and start this nightmare.

 

It's as if my brain did fine with lexapro at first. It didn't seem to cause too much problem going on and coming off. It's when the EXR entered my system and I forced my brain to stabilize with it that the damage was done. I came off it too fast and don't remember ever even having any acute WD, but months later, I think my surging hormones was too much for my sensitized, weak NS and so it triggered protracted WD. Thus causing me to struggle so much to adjusting to life with a baby, anxiety going rampant, feeling completely off. I feel it now was not a result of my hormones (though I'm sure they played a part in my emotional side) or "anxiety disorder". It was a result of the EXR weakening and sensitizing my NS so I just couldn't handle the major life change.

 

It's scary how much sense this is all making now. Because since then, despite stabilizing on Lexapro eventually, when I would encounter MAJOR stress I would react the same. When I tried to taper off over a year later, then when we moved to a new city.

 

In fact, it explains why my brain seems to struggle to keep up with adjustment. Last summer I had planned a trip to visit my best friend in Washington. I was going just by myself and taking my daughter who at the time was only 11 months. I was SO looking forward to the trip! I planned and was so excited for months leading up to it. I was excited on the plane ride up there. I was excited when we landed and I got my bags. But then when I got in her car and was seeing that I was in a completely different place than I'm used to, it's like a switch went off in my head and my excitement turned to fear, panic, feeling lost, wondering why I made such a scary trip. But mostly the panic and fear. And no matter what I told myself or tried to calm myself down, nothing helped. I ended up crying for a couple hours because I was struggling to cope with my environment change and beig so far from my comfort zone.

 

I thought it was my underlying anxiety disorder breaking through. Nothing else would explain why my brain just could not handle the transition. I knew nothing of how our CNS work and process stress. It's literally like my CNS just could not keep up.

 

Maybe it wasn't an underlying illness breaking through. Maybe it was Lexapro failing to keep my damaged CNS processing stress properly and allowing me to cope. Maybe it was the damage EXR did to me that was breaking through.

 

I did eventually adjust. In fact, I remember feeling better by the evening but waking up in a panic. Another clue that it was my CNS struggling.

 

This also happened when we moved to my husbands college area. I was looking forward to it so much, excited every minute, but the moment we left my comfort zone, panic set in. My CNS struggled to keep up. The stress, even though it was good stress, was too much for it and I reacted again in panic over the change that I was so looking forward to.

 

I panicked more and more every moment we got closer to our new unfamiliar home. I tried to feel excitement for the new adventure, but my brain just would not respond in any way they than panic and I just didn't understand!! So again, I figured it was my anxiety disorder breaking through.

 

Now I'm making the connection that it's not a disorder. It's a sensitized CNS that struggles with major stress, good or bad.

 

Now the question is...can I recover? Even with a very slow taper, will my brain be able to go back to the way it worked before 2008, when I was still a teenager and my brain was still developing. I am afraid my brain won't know how to strengthen my CNS and coming off Prozac will only send me into horrible protracted WD no matter how slow I go.

 

This is so much scarier than I ever thought before. This would be a time I'd really appreciate some hand holding lol.

[Meimeiquest]

Hi Sunny, I have passed on sometimes what Dr. Shipko said in his book Xanax Withdrawal. He said he is often asked if people often relapse after going off a benzo. He said the relapse rate is very low, although it is high among people taking benzos short term. He said the withdrawal process is so arduous, going through the process usually helps people resolve whatever issues they have. So look at each day as a learning process, as I know you do, and just look forward to seeing who you will be on the other side. I have enjoyed your new way of posting too.

[bubble]

Sunny, our brains have a remarkable capacity of fixing themselves (all of us here are a proof to that)

 

you and I started with the meds early which is not good but we are still young so age is on our side here.

 

maybe reading on neuroplasticity can give you further assurance you need?

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/204-neuroplasticity-slow-taper-and-recovery/?hl=neuroplasticity

 

(Rhi doesn't always have to write to you directly nor about your case in particular to address your issues Despite our individual differences, we all have an awful lot in common. That's why I keep saying that in any thread you open here you will find many things that will resonate with you and answer your questions. Muddles and Wolfhound are also mothers of small children so their experiences might be useful to you.

 

If I could, I'd give you some homework to read a few posts on their threads and maybe even post? I personally feel I get so much more when I give

[bubble]

there's more by Rhi on this topic that you might find interesting: 

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2761-neuroplasticity-and-limbic-retraining/

[sunnydays0912]

Thank you so much for helping me through this Bubble! I will definitely read the links you provided.

 

Today has been such a busy, exhausting day. We had so many errands and school and sports, and my daughter didn't nap, so she was such a exhausting job alone.

 

But because she didn't nap, for the first time in months and months I was able to get her to bed before 8pm! This was great!

 

Except for one thing. When I put her to bed when it's obviously a few hours earlier than I'm used to, it seemed to be a trigger to my anxiety. It's like on some subconscious level the fact that I was doing something against my usual routine made me feel very uncomfortable. Like it was too much of a change. The same exact feeling I experience when I've endured big life changes in the past, or even just environment changes recently. I got a little panicked and just in general did not like the change.

 

I should be thanking God to get her to bed at a decent time and enjoy some well deserved rest. But my CNS did not want to react the way I wanted and instead felt anxiety and discomfort and panic over the change. It wasn't bad, but it was enough to really scare me. Makes me realize how sensitized my CNS is now...and I'm scared to death of experiencing another poop out episode like with lexapro.

 

My BIL who I love moved in and the change was too much that I completely crashed. I know this is already known, but it was the worst experience of my life. I can not go through something like that again, and if a simple bedtime change triggers a small reaction, what does that mean for when a bigger change happens? I plan on moving home this summer...that's a HUGE change! Hopefully moving home to where I'm familiar and comfortable will help, but we'll see.

 

Does this sound like a common reaction to someone experiencing a hypersensitive CNS? I do hope being so tired and worn out is playing a huge part in it. I've began exercising 30 minutes a day to help my energy levels and hopefully produce endorphins. But maybe that's too much for me right now.

[sunnydays0912]

Also, though I promise they are rare thoughts, I also get this inner fear that what I'm actually feeling is possibly linked to schizophrenia somehow disconnecting me from myself.

 

I have no idea if this holds any weight. But damn it's a scary thought.

 

I am so afraid of poop out again now though. I really hope an expert can answer me one question: If I experience another poop out, and this time actually stick to tapering, what are the chances of getting off actually helping?

 

Like, I know I was advised over and over to do a straight taper from Lexapro before when this happened. Is that because it is believed the lexapro was now causing such adverse effects, or was it just not working anymore and my CNS was showing it's true damage? Meaning if I even got off it, I'd still be in such a state?

 

Please, Alto or one of the other experts, I'm begging you to help me figure this out. I'm in tears just from the fear that without meds, my CNS will be free to be in the damaged state it truly is in since 2008 and I will be living in Hell while hoping I recover.

 

I confess this little episode I experienced tonight has really made me fear that Prozac is only just barely keeping my CNS together...

[bubble]

I will say only this: this is our old Sunny talking here.

 

From my experience, whenever we gain an insight and become aware of patterns in which we think and behave that are actually not useful for us, this realisation makes us change the way we think and behave. As we saw in your recent posts.

 

But this process is actually very similar to learning in general or learning how to walk: babies make one or two steps and then fall down and start to crawl again. (But through continuous practice, soon start walking with more and more ease and confidence and with less falling down and going back to the old ways). What I'm trying to say is that a part of changing a pattern of thinking like any other habit means that we will very often go back to that same habit and the old way of thinking. Then we will become aware of it and gently return to the new way of thinking until this becomes our default way, after a lot of practice.

 

Not sure I made myself clear enough but hope you will understand what I'm trying to say.

 

That said, I think the questions your old self is asking again have been answered numerous times already so you can just go back reading your own thread and you'll find them. If you'll remember, we even agreed there is basically no such thing as mental "illness". Even you yourself wrote the other day how everything your CNS was experiencing might very well be the result of the influence of meds. We here don't believe in damage (that's what all those therads on neuroplasticity were about). We only believe in healing and the power of our CNS to heal itself regardless of how badly we've mistreated it.

 

Only gentle exercise is recommended so don't push yourself. 

 

Another thing you will hugely benefit from is reading about concepts such as acceptance: accept that you got anxious and don't judge that experience (it's a trifle, why should I get anxious over something like that, the fact that I did means I'm suffering from some horribel illness, etc.) Just accept it and move on. Don't disect it. It's not healthy. It leads you to the stage from which your next post was written.

 

The last thing I wanted to tell you: you often complain how you don't have time to read things or read other people's threads. Which is understandable on one level since you are a busy mom of two small kids (how old are they by the way?) On the other hand, I always wonder how much time it took you to write all those minute dissections of how you are feeling, why you are feeling like that, is this  a poop out, will it happen, etc. CBT would help you there a lot. I'm just trying to make you aware that you might have more time on your hands than you think and that that time might be spent in a more beneficial way. Too much focus on ourselves inevitably makes us lose perspective.

 

(I don't understand what poop out means to you and it is probably something you picked up from that other site that was pathologising postpartal experiences. To put it mildly, we don't find it useful at all here).

 

Also, try what I advised earlier: read about other people. They are going through the same states as you. Or similar enough for you to get answers to your questions and more importantly, get a perspective on what you are going through which might prevent you from catastrophising.

 

I guess you didn't have time to read about neuroemotions? Another topic that might help you a lot....

 

Im sure you will snap out of this quickly. Once we learn how to walk, even if we ocassionally and initially still do a lot of crawling, we inevitably get up

[sunnydays0912]

Bubble I totally get where you're coming from. That feeling of anxiety I had yesterday was just so out if the blue and unexpected and over something so small. I have 2 forms of anxiety. One that's like a general uncomfortable alertness where I can't really relax and can't stop thinking about how I feel. I'm pretty sure this is related to acute WD because that's when I feel it.

 

The 2nd is the kind where I feel as if my whole reality is changing. Like a anxious derealization state. It happens when I do something different, out of routine. But usually only after BIG changes. Even when I was stable on lexapro those 4.5 years and felt normal in every way, whenever I'd move, or travel far, or even when I got pregnant with my daughter, I'd be hit with this panic out of nowhere like I explained in my previous post. Like my nervous system just can't handle the change at all and I have to fight off this inner agitated panic attack that's constant and very debilitating. Sometimes it's very short lived, like when I traveled to Washington I felt pretty ok again a day or 2 after arriving. And when we moved 2 years ago (not this last time) it was just to the city next to us and I was excited, but was also hit with it once we actually made the move. But again, I adjusted within a couple days.

 

But other times, like when I got pregnant with my daughter, the hormones came on so hard and sent me into a anxiety/agitated/akathisia/cortisol mornings episode so severe and it lasted over a week before I finally settled down again. But the cortisol mornings is what tells me it was an adverse reaction, not my "underlying issue" breaking through like I always assumed all those times. The scary part is I was stable on the same exact dose during all of those episodes.

 

So instead of thinking is an illness, I'm thinking it was lexapro lapsing and my true distressed CNS was showing it's face because lexapro wasn't able to keep it in "check". The stress was just too much during these times.

 

But I want to make it clear, I don't think I have a mental illness. I think I have a damaged CNS that's being masked by the very substance that caused it.

 

And Alto herself told me she believed my lexapro was pooping out when I first joined this site. She said it can cause WD symptoms and vivid down feelings. This is exactly what happened when lexapro pooped out. I went from feeling relatively stable again, then a life stressor occurred, and my CNS just could not handle it even with lexapro helping. At least that's what I'm thinking happened. I completely broke down and couldn't cope with the smallest of things. My life felt like a living Hell.

 

The feeling I felt when lexapro pooped out was what I felt yesterday when I just tried putting my daughter to bed earlier. The fact that it was unfamiliar set me off like I just couldn't cope with the change. And the feeling was familiar to what happened when lexapro pooped out, so yes I began to fear the same thing may happen with Prozac.

 

Alto told me I may never respond to these meds well again. And while I'm grateful Prozac bridging at least brought me out of that living Hell I was in, who knows how long it will be able to keep me stable. And that momentary episode yesterday just really scared me.

 

Something else that I wonder may have caused it was I ran out of my 20mg capsule doses so yesterday I had to make my dose out of 10mg caps. I have until my insurance will pay for a new prescription of 20mg to be filled again. So I poured the powder out of 4 - 10mg caps. and made my usual dose. But I kind of noticed the amount of powder once in the cup seemed like a little more than usual. But I didn't think much of it since it was the same manufacturer just smaller caps.

 

Well now I wonder if maybe the 10mg caps actually have more filler in them or something? In which case might throw off my usual measurement? And maybe this caused the reaction I had? Because even today I've been feeling more anxiety than usual at all, especially lately. I went through all of yesterday feeling pretty normal and didn't even have time to think about WD or any of this.

 

I'd really appreciate if Rhi or someone else knowledgable of the way these meds are produced could let me know if 10mg caps are somehow measured differently than the 20mg. I guess I could call and ask the pharmacist this too. I think the manufacturer name is Preva?

 

Edited to add it's called Pliva.

 

Thanks for any help I receive.