EternalOptimist: 17 days on generic remeron, want off

March 15, 2014

Im sorry you are feeling unwell EO! A week of and now mirtazapine has left your body. It takes 7+ days to do that. This is as bad as it will get I guess. Try not to fear and panic. That will amplify wd:s. Hopefully you will get better from day to day in small increments. Be very kind to yourself right now! Hope you will get better soon!

March 15, 2014

Thnx Wulfgar. So glad u popped and nice of u to do so. do u think I am so much worse overnight due to mitrazapine w/d?

Maybe the mag covered some of the Sx?

Best to you. Need to check your thread.

March 16, 2014

Have a question for those who might be off or just know:

I'm 10 days off now and the first week was fine. Yesterday was rough and, tho I took the usual amt of magnesium,

I feel off, head pressure/ache and like it's difficult to be fully present, numb or difficult to be present fully, concentrate, think, etc.

Is worse 2nd week off and hope it's just part of the process. Getting simple chores done but mental processes seem more difficult now than

the last few weeks even.

Any thoughts? thanks

March 16, 2014

I'm sorry you are struggling EO.

You know I'm not much of an expert but from what I've been reading it's fairly natural that WD symptoms get worse further down the road rather than immediately upon discontinuation. I imagine this as the drugs becoming a part of our foundation and once they are removed it's as if one of the bricks is removed and then the whole structure starts shaking and readjusting with initial movements being slight (unless we have removed a really large brick) and then intensifying as this lack destabilizes the structure further...

In my own case, I was doing quite fine for almost 4 weeks after I stopped the drug, and the worst of horrible withdrawal came after all that time.

hang in there, you can do it!

big hug,

bubble

March 16, 2014

Hi Bubble:

Really like your analogy to removing bricks in foundation of a house, makes perfect sense, thank you.

Thanks for that and your compassion. I am sorry you went into the worst w/d 4 weeks after terminating the drug.

Hope it didn't last long. ?

During benzo/xanax w/d, we talked about the "benzo flu". I feel like that again and wonder if such is the result of w/d from

this AD as well. The price to pay for getting help in a crisis, yikes. There are better ways, I'm sure.

Best

EO

March 17, 2014

3:30 a.m. Don't know what's wrong...head feels so strange, feel so sick, fear 911. Again. Something feels so off. Had better day yesterday mentally. Mouth so dry tho I drink, eat well, read where mag draws moisture to the gut.

Don't know what to think. 10 days off. Trying to keep fear down,

How much related to w/d.?

Sent from my iPad

March 17, 2014

Hi EO, I'm sorry you are feeling bad, it does seem most likely to be withdrawal from

mirtazepine. I don't think you can have withdrawal from magnesium but most likely was helping

the symptoms. Nikki posted an excellent video here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5982-video-on-healing/#entry80793

which explains what is happening in withdrawal. When you can understand what is happening it is easier to cope with.

I hope things settle down a little for you soon.

March 17, 2014

Thnx MP..watched it, is good. Now I'm getting the shakes at 4:30 a.m. Don't think my thoughts brought me down but now my thoughts and memories of recent crisis are imposing. Went to bed ok...now worst morning since I began tapering and on short time. Maybe Xanax w/d etc makes me more vulnerable. . Anxiety rising. Sweaty.. Scared.

March 17, 2014

Having sig anxiety,weird head Sx, fear. Trembling, weakness, not hungry...all such drastic change over night...well, last 2 days were more Challenge. have to lay downs lot hanging on. Am scared

March 17, 2014

If I were you, I'd reinstate 1mg mirtazapine.

March 17, 2014

If were to reinstate, how many ml of water titration would 1 mg be using. A 7.5 pill?

March 17, 2014

I hope some mathematician comes in soon...

If you have 7.5 mg pill you put it in 7.5 ml of water and take 1 ml to get 1 mg (throw the rest or keep it for a few days, up to 4). I can't believe I'm advising on maths. sorryyy But this is just an invitation for someone to jump in soon and correct me.

I wasn't following how fast you were going down, put if Alto says reinstate, that's it...

March 18, 2014

Thanks Alto and Bubble, I'll consider and see how I do tonight. Am shocked at how bad it got last few days, esp last night and today, esp after

the last week tapering and first week off I was more ok than not. Such is the beast.

Best to you both.

EO

March 18, 2014

Besides magnesium for sleep, what else helps people?

I heard mag glycine ate does not affect bowels.

Not used that but need to try it. Thnx

March 18, 2014

So sorry you are feeling so poorly today. EO the drug is bad news for you and the taper (quickly) adds to the ill feelings.

I hope Alto comes along to make a suggestion on the dosage.

I think Wulfgar gave you some marvelous advise. One thing that I do is make sure, not matter how ill I have ever been is to get myself into the shower in the morning. I shampoo and blow dry my hair and get dressed. Freshening up is a bit invigorating and makes me feel less ill.

Showers will help with anxiety and depression even though it make be for a short period of time. Make sure you eat and keep hydrated.

Can you get outside for some fresh air?

Try to do things you may normally do in small steps to help you feel more "normal". Rest when you need to.

I am not sure what to tell you about the doses or updosing or just staying where you are.....some of the other will be along...

Hugs

March 18, 2014

HI NIkkie.
Thanks for dropping by. I do bath daily and get outside. Good suggestions of course, thank you.

I'm finding myself reluctant to go back on...trying to wade thru this morass. Am working with Somatic Experiencing with a therapist who comes to my home, imagine that. A first and I'm grateful.

I am glad you found something that helps daily, grooming etc. and having a routine, I find, very helpful.

I so want a good nights sleep and bet everyone here wants the same or those who are not getting it.

hugs back, I feel them!

Best

EO

March 18, 2014

EO, I am saddened that you have been going through a challenging time ..

I am thinking of you .. Please hang in there .. Things will get better ..

Please know that I am holding you in thought and prayer :wub:

Love, Lexi

March 19, 2014

Lexi, how compassionate of you, thank you.

Things have to get better, just have too for each and every one of us.

My best to you.

Hug EO

March 19, 2014

Hi EO. Sorry that you are feeling bad. I know whats it like. I do think benzo withdrawal makes us more sensitive when withdrawing from mirtazapine. I think you need to sum up how bad you felt in the last days and try to evaluate if you can cope for a week or two more of this. If you cant, i would suggest, like Alto, that you reinstate at least 1 mg. I think, when we feel to unwell and sleep to poorly we get a quite low recovery rate which can make for a long time feeling bad.

If you decide to reinstate, remember that 1 mg is a small dose that you can taper of easily later on.

A trick to get your serum levels up to steady state for a 1mg of mirtazapine dose quickly is to take approximately 2.6 mg the first day followed by 1 mg the next days. Then you do not have to wait 7 days for your blood serum to stabilize. You will get the feel for how 1 mg will affect you within one or two days. (For a female with a ~35 hour half life of mirtazapine steady state is a 2.6 mg one dose equivalence)

Wish you the very best,

Wulfgar

March 19, 2014

Thnx Wulfgar. I feel so bizarre this morning, memories of the hospital nightmare, fear, sick, weak, barely think straight....

By eve sometimes I think I can hang in there then morn comes. Been told that once come off, might not do well going back on.

Fear that too, then would have to taper again , doesn't seem easy either way. Guess would have to taper more slowly but once off, would I feel like this? Dang,. Am battling fear.

March 19, 2014

hang in there EO,

what I read from Wulfgar's post is addressing your fear that reinstating will make things even worse for you (which is a risk of course but I think most of us feel great relief after reinstating).

What Wulfgar is trying to stress as well is that putting our CNS through a harsh stress of withdrawal will make us feel unwell for a longer time. Reinstatement might make this process smoother and less painful.

I think there is a great probability that if you reinstate such a small amount, allow yourself a long hold and then taper very slowly the withdrawal won't be nowhere near as brutal as this one. There are no guarantees of course but I think most people have this experience.

I just wanted to echo Wulfgar's message because I understand you are not feeling well and it's very hard to make any decision in such a state especially the one that you fear might result in an even greater suffering. But if Alto thinks there is a chance that this would work if I were you I'd take a chance.

I just wanted to help you with your decision making process.

No matter what you decide, we will be here for you.

hugs,

bubble

March 19, 2014

EO....I understand how you are feeling....been there. I have never taken mirtzapine but have read many posts here from people who have. The symptoms you are describing to me are the WD from getting off of it.

Did you say how much you were on when you decided to let go of it?

My own experience has been to reinstate where I left off and luckily it has worked each and every time with various meds.

You have nothing to lose by doing that. It should help alleviate the WD and calm you down a bit.

There are quite few things alot of us have tried to help with WD.....magnesium gyclinate - fish oil - Vit C - epsom salt baths 0 rescue remedy - propranolol (beta blocker for anxiety). All you can do is try them and see if there is a difference.

The magnesium is not the problem in my estimation. It is stopping the mirtazapine which you can go back on.

Sending lots of hugs your way

March 19, 2014

Thnx Bubble and Nikki. Heartened to know I'll get support either way. That was a concern. Whew

Right Now I am going thru remembering and feeling the Original trauma in childhood, a painful, scary place to be and probably behind all the suffering, on n off med, hospital visits. Bet U and others can relate. I am going to c if can learn and ride it out for a bit. Have a new therapist. I have the med here if need. Sure be nice if we , I, could get a handle on this once and for all, I pray that today for us.

Hugs to you both, and any here that need it. thnx again.

March 21, 2014

Hi again.

I'm in a quandary, trying to understand/figure out what is causing what in my brain/head.

Mornings are so difficult, feel so brain/head sick, weak, visual straining, cognitively murky.

I'm off 15 days or so and am getting thru but since I was only on this med little over 2 months am now wondering

how much might be from xanax w/d, CFS, possibly lyme, maybe post -polio, etc., that I thought of asking here

how many people are significantly functionally limited due to medication use and w/d? I don't seem to fit into any category.

Many are working, exercising, socializing. I do the latter by phone or with close neighbor friends.

Rarely go anywhere due to being too health challenged.

Just needed to share a bit in trying to get a better handle on my life.
Thanks

Prayers for healing to all.

Best

EO

March 22, 2014

Hi EO,

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, but I'm in a bad wave at the moment, so I'm not understanding much of anything. I'm not functional, not working, not exercising (much). I've recently started to be able to go for a daily 10 - 20 minute walk. Also, very little socializing.

I don't have any other health issues besides long term psyche drug use and withdrawal. Maybe some menopause issues, but it could be that my hormones have been effected by the long term drug use. I've been off SSRIs for just over 3 years and off all meds for 9 months. I didn't know anything about the dangers of these drugs or tapering and have spent about 15 years coming on and off lots of different toxic substances which I believe has now resulted in damage to my nervous system.

In your situation, I think your symptoms could be caused by a combination of withdrawal, your other health issues and the added stress of the trauma work you are doing. I tried doing some trauma release work at home with a program and CD, but found it too overwhelming and stressful to deal with while also being in withdrawal, so I stopped. As part of withdrawal, I'm finding that a lot of old memories and emotional pain from the past are being triggered spontaneously and I'm having to relive it. Sometimes this is happening through dreams and other times during the early hours of the morning when I wake up and can't go back to sleep.

For some people, coming off antidepressants and dealing with withdrawal, seems to be a straight forward, mostly physical process of recovery and regaining the life they lived previously. But for others, it can be a catalyst for a more complex healing process which can encompass other aspects of life. I think this can happen whether we are ready for it or not.

I don't have any answers, but wanted you to know you are not alone in trying to get a handle on life again.

Petu.

March 22, 2014

Hi EO,

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, but I'm in a bad wave at the moment, so I'm not understanding much of anything. I'm not functional, not working, not exercising (much). I've recently started to be able to go for a daily 10 - 20 minute walk. Also, very little socializing.

I don't have any other health issues besides long term psyche drug use and withdrawal. Maybe some menopause issues, but it could be that my hormones have been effected by the long term drug use. I've been off SSRIs for just over 3 years and off all meds for 9 months. I didn't know anything about the dangers of these drugs or tapering and have spent about 15 years coming on and off lots of different toxic substances which I believe has now resulted in damage to my nervous system.

In your situation, I think your symptoms could be caused by a combination of withdrawal, your other health issues and the added stress of the trauma work you are doing. I tried doing some trauma release work at home with a program and CD, but found it too overwhelming and stressful to deal with while also being in withdrawal, so I stopped. As part of withdrawal, I'm finding that a lot of old memories and emotional pain from the past are being triggered spontaneously and I'm having to relive it. Sometimes this is happening through dreams and other times during the early hours of the morning when I wake up and can't go back to sleep.

For some people, coming off antidepressants and dealing with withdrawal, seems to be a straight forward, mostly physical process of recovery and regaining the life they lived previously. But for others, it can be a catalyst for a more complex healing process which can encompass other aspects of life. I think this can happen whether we are ready for it or not.

I don't have any answers, but wanted you to know you are not alone in trying to get a handle on life again.

Petu.

even we she is suffering so badly this woman (our dear Petu) doesn't stop being amazing!

Dear EO, was thinking about your question after I read your post and will share my perspective (as someone who is keeping a job - and sometimes feels horrible: like being forced to run a marathon with a broken leg. At other times I get distracted from my suffering, colleagues or some other interaction at work lifts me up. at other times, I find such interactions abrasive, they cause me horrible stress and so on. I think I've developed an extremely complex system of navigation through all that...

I also struggle to maintain my social life and connections with my friends. But I'm lucky to have a great circle of people I've gathered in my life and met at various stages who know what I'm going through and even have similar experiences although on a much lesser scale. When I feel better, I invest a lot of energy and love into our relationships but still, when I'm utterly bad, I feel lonely and isolated despite all that.

A few of us here, RU and I in particular have been discussing how we balance between inactivity and activity. We try to allow ourselves periods of inactivity, not socialising. taking a time out from life but also using however small windows we might have to gently push ourselves into an activity or a social interaction or anything of the sort.

That's what I wanted to encourage you to try doing. My aunt helped me a lot. She is a special person, has no formal education, vehemently denies having any 'mental' problems, sees psychiatrists and medication as devil's work and yet all her adult life struggles with anxiety and depression (that she refuses to call that).

A lot of us "enlightened and educated" would behave in an 'enlightened and educated way' and see a doctor about it. But not her. She told me: when I felt bad, I knew I had to get up and go and do something. What good can staring at the ceiling and looking at the lamp bring you? When I feel bad, I leave the house and just walk, walk for hours. (she lives in the country at the foot of a beautiful mountain). When I was in extremely bad states and couldn't work or live or anything, instead of going anywhere near a hospital, I would go for my aunt's "treatment": we would roam the countryside till we got totally physically exhausted and this treatment pulled me out of the worst of my states and thought me a very valuable lesson: do whatever you can to be active (I found an activity that works for me).

Make sure you are active even when you think you absolutely can't (I tell myself). I don't cease to be amazed at what change 30 minutes of walking up the hill do to me. (sometimes I say I operate with the help of a crane: find it so difficult to move around) but I still make sure I at least crawl. When it is extremely bad and everything in me yells for complete rest and withdrawal from all activity, I obey. But just for one day at most...

I'm glad you asked this question because I find it extremely important. In retrospect, I think it literally saved my life...If I went the "educated and enlightened"route of more drugs and hospitals, I think I would now be in a long-term care facility....(speaking of myself, of course).

By the way, you still don't want to reinstate that m drug?

big hug,

bubble

March 22, 2014

Hello Petu:

Thank you for your nice reply tho I am sorry you've suffered so much and for so long.

I've stayed in touch with 4 benzo suvivors, 3 having sig issues many years off, one less so.

We all marveled at those who have gotten off relatively with ease and no long term repercussions.

Maybe I'm in a wave too and, like you, not easy to mentally or cognitively respond well. I do appreciate your efforts

all the more. It helps a lot to know I'm not alone in the long-term suffering category tho would prefer it otherwise for us all/

HI Bubble:

Thank you too for your response. Good feedback. Part of my history is pushing too hard and crashing as I keep trying to act as if,

keep my routine and get things done. I used to exercise, jog, etc., til I came down with the EBV/CFS in 1989, many years ago and since been

on disability but went on to get a Master's degree and then some but going very slowly. I also walk around my small house outside often and, when I can,

walk or stroll up and down in front of my home. I don't rest well given the un-restful sensations I have. As for going back on, honestly, that scares me.

Being online is a challenge due to brain sx, I bet you know about that.

I still don't get how I could have felt so decently the last week of tapering daily and first week off, it was a blessing so now I'm baffled. I have wonderful friends as well but they don't understand the med/ w/d isssue tho they have health problems. I used to run support groups for 12 years for people with chronic illness. I miss being able to do that.

Yesterday I had flashbacks of the recent horrid awful hospital experience and have to work hard to shake that off.

I find it difficult to ride in a car due to sitting which is considerably uncomfortable due to increasing head pressure in that position.

I drive a little very close to home, pushing to continue that as best I can.

Appreciate all the feedback and keep all in my prayers.

Best

EO

thanks again

March 23, 2014

17 days off. Head Sx worse. Pressure, pain, slight equilibrium challenge ESP if upright too long. Scary.

Intense when getting up in a.m. Wonder if this is the worst n how long might last. Still don't want to go back on.

Just scared so thought I'd post. Thnx

March 24, 2014

I'm having such a hard time now. Phys Sx are so intense. Barely able to get out if bed and function...feel so sick. All w/d? Just don't know. Thnx

March 24, 2014

sorry I didn't reply yesterday.

I'm think about you and feel sad you are so unwell.

You decided not to reinstate that m-drug if I remember it correctly (sorry I'm not familiar with it).

You were concerned we would not support you in what happens afterwards (I had the same concern when I went against the advice of the forum

we will support you always. and try to figure out what would be the best course of action in any situation you bring yourself into.

I'm just trying to put things into perspective for myself: you decided to tough it out but it seems things have been going from bad to worse. is that so?

I would definitely say it's WD ;( If WD symptoms (any kind of negative reaction) start very soon after reducing the drug, in my experience they only get worse as the time goes by until the whole house collapses and then we have to build it up again (in protracted withdrawal). Remember my comparison about removing a brick from your foundation?

If the house has got too destabilised already, putting the brick back can't help to stop the collapse (it's too late to reinstate).

I will go back a few threads to remind myself of what has been going on. This is just so that you know you are not alone. We will work something out.

Big hug!

bubble

March 24, 2014

hang in there EO,

what I read from Wulfgar's post is addressing your fear that reinstating will make things even worse for you (which is a risk of course but I think most of us feel great relief after reinstating).

What Wulfgar is trying to stress as well is that putting our CNS through a harsh stress of withdrawal will make us feel unwell for a longer time. Reinstatement might make this process smoother and less painful.

I think there is a great probability that if you reinstate such a small amount, allow yourself a long hold and then taper very slowly the withdrawal won't be nowhere near as brutal as this one. There are no guarantees of course but I think most people have this experience.

I just wanted to echo Wulfgar's message because I understand you are not feeling well and it's very hard to make any decision in such a state especially the one that you fear might result in an even greater suffering. But if Alto thinks there is a chance that this would work if I were you I'd take a chance.

I just wanted to help you with your decision making process.

No matter what you decide, we will be here for you.

hugs,

bubble

well, it seems we were all advising reinstating precisely for this reason: to avoid the agony you are now feeling.

As I said in my situation, it only got worse as the time went by: culminating in my first ever depersonalisation and racing thoughts when I thought and felt I was literalyl losing my mind. I see you are still counting days, symptoms seem to be getting worse...

Maybe it's not too late to reinstate. The longer you wait, the longer it will take to stabilise.

Just my opinion. Hope others join. Sorry to say, when I looked back at your thread it seems a lot of us have been offering this advice.

I'm afraid I still haven't got anything better to offer.

March 24, 2014

Hi and thanks Bubble. I hear the advice and have thought about it for sure. I've had such horrid exp tapering and in w/d that I find I just don't know if I could put that pill in mymmouth and swallow it. that alone brings up stress. you all may be right and I may be a fool. Your point about if sx worsen shortly after cessation of a drug probably means it's all w/d. It's 18 days off. Now the possibility of reinstating might be worse or not work. I could handle the "not work" but "make things worse" is more than I want to take on. I keep thinking this has got to be the worst and I'll wake up tomorrow and find sx are a tad better esp since I was only on this drug 2 months and 1 week. I'm trying not to let fear rule my decisions or my day, a work in progress.

I soooo appreciate your coming by to lend support. It's scary to do this on my own, again. I do have a few benzo survivor friends I call but need more and additional support so here I am.

I've come off numerous meds in coming off xanax and just think I can't bear going on and off again. I think.

God bless and thanks again. I do hear and appreciate all the advice. I may do the wrong thing for the right reason or the right thing for the wrong reason, oh, so much for attempt at humor to lessen the intensity of distress.

Best to you Bubble

EO

March 24, 2014

I understand everything you are saying.

1mg is such a small amount and it will just mean you will get off this sooner and with less suffering.

Nobody is a fool or smart here. It's just likelihood and experienced that others have lots more than me.

I also understand the hope it will start getting better and more bearable, that you will hit the bottom and then start coming up. But in my experience this didn't happen ;( And I can't imagine what I would have done if I had tried to tough it put some more.

18 days is not so much compared to my 40 and you would see immediately, that is 4 days after at the latest if it is working. It might mean you will get off this think not only with much less suffering but also sooner.

whatever you decide, we will support you

March 25, 2014

EO, i can so relate to not wanting to put even the tiniest bit in your mouth. Im tapering my last med, the antihistamine, and i almost cant swallow it down.

19 days is not much. Reinstating or updosing have always relieved some of my wd:s . 19 days is not much in regards to healing either. I think it might be possible that you will get better around the month mark. Im beyond the month mark now and i do feel better. Still much healing left though!

Still a bit more towards recommending you a 1mg reinstatement though but i totally understand your reluctance to do so.

Wish your a speedy recovery

Wulfgar

March 25, 2014

Thnx W. felt some dep yest n this a.m. So sick...can hardly walk...read c a guy on mitrazapine 2 months and off 3 weeks, both like me, and worse, and he thought it peaked at 3-4 weeks. Hard to get thru the day when can barely use the body or brain. Know u all know.

I think of reinstating n know I'd come off fast again.

When u reinstated, wonder how long u took to come off , real slow?

Thnx

March 25, 2014

Dear EO,

after reinstating and before coming off again, there is yet another very important step: stabilising, waiting for the symptoms to abate and reach a predictable pattern.

The longer you are suffering withdrawal, the more stress you are incurring on your CNS and, the longer it will take to stabilise ;(

I'm sorry you are feeling so sick..

best,

bubble

EternalOptimist: 17 days on generic remeron, want off

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