Drummerseve: im guessing im going through effexor withdrawal?

[wantrelief]

I totally relate to how you are feeling.  I too have had daily, sometimes constant, suicidal thoughts -they can be quite vivid sometimes.  I try to separate myself from the thoughts as much as I can by telling myself that it is just a symptom of the brain being in chaos and not me.  I have had this (the suicidal thoughts) before in withdrawal and when I felt better, they disappeared - I keep trying to remember that, that it isn't that I actually want to act on the thoughts, it is just that I want to feel better.  It is so so hard to feel this way in life.  I too am trying to stabilize and it sounds like it can take quite awhile for some to get there.  I hope you find some relief soon.  In the meantime, you are not alone!

[drummerseve]

Ive recently been going through absolute hell. I realized in my sig I forgot to note that weeks after my Effexor taper I dropped my klonopin to 3/4 of 1 mg pill becuz I wanted to start tapering that as well. Im still taking the benzo and have reinstated 5 beads of Effexor to see if it would change anything. its been 4 days and no help. But I also don't take my benzo till late evening. But when I take my benzo at night all the symptoms like the intrusive suicidal thoughts, hopelessness, joyless, depressed, dizzy (plus 50 other symptoms) go away. I looked up a symptom list and have been using info from all of the helpful people on here and it seems like im dealing with benzo problems more than Effexor. I could be completely wwrong here and could be dealing with both who knows. that's why Im posting this. I know a lot of u guys have a ton of knowledge and thought maybe u could make things clearer. should I have not dropped so much of the k? is that enuf to have the symptoms im dealing with. I literally feel so much better 85% of the time I take the benzo. say 45- an hr afterwards. Im know im all over the place here but im trying to put my finger on whats up. Also, I updated my sig. Im really sorry I forgot to put that in. I don't know how I didn't remember to write it down. thanks for listening.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

We don't usually recommend tapering the benzo while you are tapering the antidepressant. Benzos can sometimes help a bit with sleep and can sort of cushion your AD drop (but not always). You made a 25% drop in the benzo and we only recommend drops of 10% or less. You may be indeed having some symptoms of benzo wd mixed in, you could try adding a bit of that drop back in and then split your K dose so you are taking it 3 or 4 times per day to minimize interdose wd too. Many people do really well with this kind of dosing.

 

Here is the topic on tapering klonopin for more information.

[Wildflower0214]

 

 

I know you feel horrible! I know it's awful. But, there are many many many of us going through similar circumstances. If you read some other people's threads you will feel less alone.

 

I have had very similar symptoms as you describe, and this started in Feb 2014 and I'm still going through this. Some things have improved, but other symptoms have come up.

 

Also, Rhi (Rhiannon) has been through a LOT. Maybe read her thread, or just the beginning to see where she started out.

 

You are not alone. It's hideous, no denying it. But it seems none of us escapes the process. It just manifests differently in all of us.

 

I'm so sorry you are suffering, really I am.

[drummerseve]

Im so frustrated. I dread every minute of every day and what makes it worse is that i cant figure out what it is that's affecting me the most. Like i said the symptoms im having(from what ive read)seem to be leaning more towards my K and it hit me the hardest when i dropped down to 3/4. But i also know that the dread, anxiety, suicidal thoughts etc are known to be part of ssri or snri wd. I feel lost cuz i dont know where to start. im gonna go back up to 1 mg and split it 4 times a day along with the 5 beads of effexor im reinstating. Only time will tell i guess.

[Wildflower0214]

I understand. I'm a rapid taper off of Effexor back in July. I showed up too late to reinstate. I am also dealing with a paradoxical reaction to Ativan, and recently had to make a cut, which is not a great option given the state I'm in. But, all I was left with were bad options.

 

It's nearly impossible to tease out benzo vs effexor WD in the situation you are in. Sooooooo many symptoms overlap and manifest in each person differently or for different lengths of time.

 

Reinstatement can take several weeks and even a couple months to even out from what I have seen. There are no quick fixes here. I know you are miserable. I've spent a long time in miserable, I'm familiar.

 

Im sorry.

 

Hopefully, a mod will chime in, maybe with a suggestion.

 

Until then, hold on. It won't last forever.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

DE,

 

I moved your post and its replies from the benzo forum to your topic here. It is more pertinent YOU specifically and not to benzo tapering. It gets too confusing to reply to you in 2 places.

 

I will tell you this which might make it easier: do not concern yourself with figuring out what is CAUSING your symptoms: benzo vs AD. It just doesn't matter. You need to stabilize on a dose of both and stay there till things start coming around. It is too soon to tell and to be adjusting anything. Pick a dose, stick with it for at least 4 days and re-evaluate. Only stop the dose if you get a recognized allergic or life threatening reaction. The fact that I suggested to you that your 25% reduction might be contributing to your discomfort was just that, a suggestion.

 

Knowing which is which does not matter all that much at this time. Careful reinstatement and evaluating does.

[wantrelief]

I am also on Klonopin.  I would suggest going back to your original dose and taking it the way you were taking it before (all in one dose?) and hopefully both this and the adding back of a little bit of Effexor will eventually help you to stabilize.  

[Wildflower0214]

DE,

 

I moved your post and its replies from the benzo forum to your topic here. It is more pertinent YOU specifically and not to benzo tapering. It gets too confusing to reply to you in 2 places.

 

I will tell you this which might make it easier: do not concern yourself with figuring out what is CAUSING your symptoms: benzo vs AD. It just doesn't matter. You need to stabilize on a dose of both and stay there till things start coming around. It is too soon to tell and to be adjusting anything. Pick a dose, stick with it for at least 4 days and re-evaluate. Only stop the dose if you get a recognized allergic or life threatening reaction. The fact that I suggested to you that your 25% reduction might be contributing to your discomfort was just that, a suggestion.

 

Knowing which is which does not matter all that much at this time. Careful reinstatement and evaluating does.

Agreed.

 

its a hideous process. I know. But, the most important thing right now is stability, picking a dose and sticking to it.

[drummerseve]

So all in one or 4 separate times a day? **** me...sry im havin a hard time and im confusing u guys cuz im confused myself.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Maybe the others will hold back from posting for a bit so as not to add to your confusion. You could try this: maintain your 5 beads a day dose. Keep your benzo dose at the 3/4 you were taking but take those 3 quarters spaced evenly throughout the day. Leave it that way for at least 4 days and keep track of your symptoms on paper and then post back and we can reevaluate, OK?

[Wildflower0214]

More frequent dosing may help. But, if your nervous system is messy at the moment, which it sounds like it is, spreading doses can cause a bit of a bump. And you have already made a lot of changes...Effexor reinstatement...etc.

 

I vote for taking the K all at once since it seemed to work ok for you that way before, and keeping a journal about symptoms. That way, if you need to split the doses you will know. Some people don't have interdose withdrawal, some do. K is better for not causing this, it's not quite as short acting. No guarantees though.

 

Keeping a journal of daily symptoms is very very helpful. You will see patterns, and it will help you understand a bit better what is happening, and just the knowlege will make you feel a bit more in control.

 

This is all my opinion.

 

Bottom line, you have to pick a direction, and then stick to it.

 

It's hard, but you can do it.

[wantrelief]

Sorry to add to your confusion.  I agree with JDM - I would take 1 mg all at once as Klonopin is longer acting and not known to cause as many problems with interdose withdrawal as the shorter acting benzos (this is why people break up their dosing).  Also, as JDM said, taking it this way was not causing you problems before so I would go back to this and concentrate on healing from the Effexor reinstatement.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Maybe the others will hold back from posting for a bit so as not to add to your confusion. You could try this: maintain your 5 beads a day dose. Keep your benzo dose at the 3/4 you were taking but take those 3 quarters spaced evenly throughout the day. Leave it that way for at least 4 days and keep track of your symptoms on paper and then post back and we can reevaluate, OK?

[Skyler]

Hi.. as your symptoms remit when you take 1 mg a day, I recommend going  back to that dose, especially as it has not been all that long... (I was on a benzo taper of 2.5 years, I started on K., and am now benzo free, so I've been around that 'block', and read alot of benzo posts). 

 

As previously advised, only taper one drug at a time...  I don't speak to ADs, but hold the benzo until those issues are resolved, or you finish the AD taper, then look to the benzo as the AD is more activating for most.  You cannot tell exactly what medication is causing which symptoms as there is considerable overlap.. but the fact your symptoms get substantially better when you reinstate the full dose of K. is indicative you tapered to fast and should go back up.

 

I would however suggest that you split your 1 mg K. tablet into two doses and take it BID.  The rough split you get is not good enough to taper, but will do for divided doses.  Just an fyi... you will need to make a liquid solution with K. when you do taper, but that is for another time... for now, focus on the Effexor.

[Ever]

Keeping an eye on ya drummer! Wish I could tell you something to help, but no-one escapes what you're going through. And it doesn't matter what's causing what. It's a bummer I know.

[Skyler]

With all due respect to CW... who often gives marvelous advice, she is not correct in this instance.  You need to listen to your body which is telling you to reinstate the full dose.  I have read thousands of benzo posts, and do know of which I speak...

 

Also, if you go back to 3 quarters of a tablet you will need to start a liquid taper, as there is no way you can cut the tablets evenly enough to discard .25 mgs of K each day..  But not to worry about this now, as your body is telling you need the 1 mg. dose.

[drummerseve]

Today has been better than yesterday by far. Woke up and took my beads and a quarter of the k. Then took another quarter a few hrs later. Im gonna take two more quarters by the time i go to sleep. Upping back to one mg and gonna fight one battle at a time. Stickin to it and for a few days. Keep u guys updated. Thanks so much for giving me ur time and advice. It means a lot to me.

[drummerseve]

Im not sure what post its in but i mentioned i used a pill cutter to quarter my pills before i knew a quarter was too much of a drop. Just makin that clear. When im rdy im gonna look into the liquid taper. Thanks guys.

[Wildflower0214]

Just keep hanging on to hope .... You'll be ok

[dalsaan]

Hi Drummer

 

I'm glad today is better for you. I recommend you record what time you take each dose and try to be consistent with that as well over the next week or so. The key- get stable then plan the next move. Don't rush, just out one foot after the other and keep us posted

 

Dalsaan

[Skyler]

Im not sure what post its in but i mentioned i used a pill cutter to quarter my pills before i knew a quarter was too much of a drop. Just makin that clear. When im rdy im gonna look into the liquid taper. Thanks guys.

 

Good idea Drummer.  A pill cutter is not close enough for the kind of accuracy we need.  It's okay if you split the K in two... a little off does not matter so much as you are taking the entire pill in one day.  But when you take a quarter away, and add it to a half for the next day or discard it, you are going to be taking more on one day, less the next etc.  In any event, a liquid taper is needed for accurate dosing, and for taking 10% (or less) cuts from each previous dose with month long holds, but again, this is only when you are ready, and it would seem the Effexor would come before, but first you need to get restabilized.  Tapering is kind of an art... but once you get the drift you should be fine.

[drummerseve]

Sky, how do u feel now that ur off the benzos? I hope i didnt ask this already.

[Skyler]

I'm good.... I came off so gradually, I had no symptoms.. just coasted off.  Real slow like...  no symptoms when I stopped.  None

[drummerseve]

So friggin happy for u way to go. I wonder if they have liquid k in Ontario. Ill talk more about it with u later. I noticed switch to diazepam when they taper. Ill talk with my doc.

[dalsaan]

Styler is living testament to the turtle method-going however slow your body wants to avoid a withdrawal reaction to the cuts

[drummerseve]

Im on day 5 of 5 beads and i havent noticed much of a difference. Its day two of splitting my K doses into quarters and i havent found its changed anything just yet. On Tuesday im going to my dr and im gonna get a refill and not touch the pills. Im gonna stay at 1 mg once a day. I really dont know what else to do. Droppin from ten beads to nothing and waiting a few weeks and then reinstating has really fuct me. Im so irritable. Also im noticing im having anxiety at times where id never have anxiety. Like dreading following up on a plan i made. For instance going to the gym or a buddies to watch fights. I dread the time leading up to it. Or going to a store. I get in the car and dread it and have anxiety. When im in the store i start having social anxiety and wanna get out as quick as i can. Wtf is happening to me? Im so angry too. Its crazy. Another thing is if i try to nap i have sleep disturbances where i wake up extremely irritated and angry with a feeling of doom and anxiousness. It also feels like ive slept for 2-3 hrs yet it's maybe 25 mins and the whole time im not really asleep. Completely at a loss and frustrated. I cant live like this. Its a ******* nightmare all day every day.

[Rhiannon]

Hi Drummer, I moved your post above over from the Reinstating topic, because this is your topic for comments and questions about your own situation. That's a general info thread for teaching and information about reinstating and stabilizing.

 

I'm sorry you're having such crap times. Withdrawal is hell. Unfortunately reinstatement doesn't fix it, it just takes the edge off, and unfortunately we still get these bad ups and downs regardless. 

 

I know it's not much help, but everything you describe is quite typical for AD withdrawal and benzo withdrawal.

 

Most folks don't find a big advantage to dividing up Klonopin since it's pretty long-acting. It's not like the short-acting benzos like Ativan and Xanax that have to be taken in multiple doses per day because they clear out of the bloodstream so fast. I think I would take Klonopin no more than twice a day 12 hours apart.

 

You might try reading through the Symptoms and Self Care section and see if there are any suggestions there that you could try; they're things that have helped other people, or sometimes turned out not to help, stuff that people have tried over the years to help deal with what you're going through.

 

Again, I'm sorry. 

[wantrelief]

I am so sorry you are feeling so badly. Can relate to all you are feeling. I think it sounds good to go back to taking the Klonopin the way you were before - hopefully that will at least ease some of your symptoms since you might have benzo withdrawal on top of the Effexor WD. Hopefully time will help both of us - it is just the meantime that is so very difficult (and that is the understatement of the year).

[drummerseve]

Thanks Rhi and Relief. A part of me wants to stop the effexor and just go through it and stay on the benzo but i dont know. its only been 5 days at five beads sonindont know if its gonna help or i should just stop and deal with it until it goes away. Thanks for the info on the dosage. It makes sense about the usage. A friend of mine has been taking half a mg three times a day as prescribed on her bottle for a few yrs. Shes never tried to stop and I havent told her wd symptoms. I dont want to scare her.(off topic) just makes me worry a bit. Never again with this ****. I cant wait to start feel better. I think its possible even tho it doesnt seems like ill make it thru another month. This **** is the devil!

[Frustrated]

I don't know if this will help or not but when I reinstated I was mad at myself a week in because it wasn't working but I persisted and by week 2 it was helping with the mental issues like intrusive thoughts. Hopefully it will start working in another week or so.

[drummerseve]

Thanks, Grumpy;) i mean frustrated. Ill try to keep my head up.

[Wildflower0214]

You are not alone. I've felt like crap for a long long time. You will get better, just a marathon, not a sprint.

 

Just hold on for the moment you are in, one foot in front of the other.

[drummerseve]

Ty my friend:)

[Ever]

Keep hangin in drummer. It's normal. Awful, horrible, disgusting and shouldn't happen to anyone, but it is temporary.

[drummerseve]

Thanks, Ever. Just seeing that i have a msg from u guys makes it a lil bit easier to deal with. I will never give up hope even tho its bleak right now. I cant. I have to beat it. Thank u guys so much for the support. I dont know where id be without it. I hope every one of u guys feels better and reaches ur goals. Seeing or hearing u feel better makes me feel better and also gives me hope. Ur all very important to me-Mike.