Tilea: Tapering venlafaxine

[Tilea]

Thank you for all your replies.....I am at 7 beads now and will stay there for a while....(was on six but seemed to have more severe WD...maybe just benzo crap.)  Will try and stabilize on 7 (that is only about 2 mg.)  for a while and see where that goes....I would like to be more stable before switching to prozac.  I hear that is what you have to do in order for the prozac to work....Am I correct.

 

Will I be able to heal from the benzos if I am taking an AD (even in the small amt). (sorry, question mark is not working)

 

thank you for all your help and advise.....

[Tilea]

I think I need to increase the AD.....I am going thru some really bad symptoms....the anxiety is bad....morning and thru out the day....feeling very down.....fatigued....fear, rage, This is horrible...It seems to be getting worse.  Trying to hold to the 7 beads...do I go up a couple of beads or what do I do.....Three days ago took 6 by mistake....now on 7........Please help.  

[bubble]

The brain heals through stability. Changing doses in response to symptoms (increasing when symptoms increase and reducing when symptoms are reduced) doesn't allow the brain to heal.

 

This is not about the right dose but providing your brain with stability it needs. You reduced too soon, inmediately after you felt better (you wrote 75 % better). That caused great destabilisation.

 

As this is not a matter of the right dose you will heal if you manage to stay on tge same dose despite symptoms. Symptoms will come and go. This wave will pass without doing anything about it (changing the drug). When you experience how your symptoms go away WITHOUT changing the dose you will be on the way to breaking free of drugs.

 

Exchange of waves (periods of increased symptoms) and windows is normal, it's how the brain heals. Do whatever you can to calm yourself and look for non-drug ways of coping will symptoms. They will pass.

 

Please read this article. It will help you to understand what is going on with the brain, how these drugs really work and give you faith in the process: Brain Remodelling (Rhi's Description of Brain Healing)

[bubble]

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1160-brain-remodeling/

[Tilea]

Just reading posts on SA, there are some that have increased their reinstatement dose to decrease some of the symptoms and try to stabilize.  That is all that I would like to do....to stabilize a bit and maybe it just might take a few more beads to do that.   I am not sure what you are referring to when you said that...... you reduced too soon, inmediately after you felt better (you wrote 75 % better).  I don't recall that part....if you are referring to my post on June 2...I was just starting my reinstatement at 7 beads and was not reducing anything then and didn't for quite some time.  

 

What is the point of reinstating then  when people are having a lot of symptoms if not to try to stabilize and decrease some of the symptoms.   I am quite familiar with the waves and windows as I am also in benzo WD.  I am also aware of trying to keep calm and wait for symptoms to pass.   As in benzo tapering, people have had to updose to try to reduce  symptoms and stabilize.   I would imagine....and from what I read on here....people are trying to do that with the AD.    I would also like to stabilize before I decide to switch to prozac and that is one of the things that they say about the prozac bridge is that you should be stabilized.

 

I have already read that article and am familiar with the process.   Thank you for your message.

[bubble]

After reinstating and  being on 7 beads for over a month....I dropped to 6 beads for the last 5 days and am getting slammed badly with panic, more pain, brain fog or dp, anxiety, tremors, more insomnia........just wondering if I should go back up to 7 and see if things get better.   Had some windows of about 75% or so during that time of a month on 7, that is why I thought i could drop 1 bead   Do I wait this out or go back to 7 and hold there for a while.   I am scared that this drug is harming my body and may result in permanent damage.   Would appreciate some advise from others who have reinstate or have a similar situation.  Thank you for your guidance.  (not sure if this is benzo wd or ad withdrawal)

Also, had taken some 5HTP and some inositol during the last while about 1 weeks worth...stopped that two days ago.  Took some earlier on for a few days and was not sure if it was doing anything so I stopped but then tried it again.  

 

This is the post I was referring to. What I put in bold indicates that you began stabilizing but started dropping way too soon and that again triggered withdrawal. Stabilising after what you have been through would take many months.

 

You have already updosed since then from 6 mg to 7 mg.

 

We all want to do something, anything when symptoms hit but unfortunately that just causes more and longer suffering. Of course you can do whatever you want to but if you are asking our advice this is what it is.

[scallywag]

Hi Tilea

 

Every reinstatement is a different experiment. It's so difficult to draw conclusions from any one person's experience.

 

Once withdrawal symptoms have started, an indication of a destabilized CNS, any change can further destabilize it. We're not medical professionals and therefore cautious and conservative in the suggestions we offer for you to consider.

 

That's why we've suggested minute doses as a reinstatement and minuscule adjustments of 1 bead. You are correct that there are a few members who have cautiously increased their dose while paying close attention to their symptoms have found an effective stabilizing dose sooner or later.

 

There's risk of continued or worsened symptoms with increasing and with decreasing dose. You're in a tough, tough spot. You're the one who knows your symptoms, your body and your life. We want to make sure that you are aware of the risks of changing your dose. Increasing, decreasing, adding, stopping or switching medication is *always* your decision.

[Altostrata]

Did adding one bead help? What time of day do your symptoms occur? Do they follow a pattern?

[Tilea]

Thanks scallywag and Altostrata.......adding the one bead didn't make much difference.  

 

My symptoms are so random....they come in the early morning....usually before my eyes open and cycle all day....sometimes a little less severe and then changing....there is NO PATTERN, whatsoever.  Sometimes for a few minutes I could be feeling a bit better and then they are back again more severe.  I have tried to see if food was a trigger....but can't find any connection with that.   This could also be some of benzo WD....that is what is making things so tough.  

 

But was wondering if there is anyone else on this sight that is coming off benzos and AD with similar problems.   Sometimes I think I need to increase my dose of AD to help the anxiety....but then I think maybe it is the AD causing the anxiety since I have had it from day 1.  

 

The only thing since reinstating is that the panic attacks that I was having a couple of weeks before reinstating are improved...Have had a few but now as severe...and not as often.  Even that could have been a benzo wave come thru.   I am also getting fatigue symptoms, but that again I had in the first few months of benzo wd....so maybe it is back in a wave.   

 

Those that have come off the AD and healed.....does this anxiety, depression go away.   I think some of my depression now is that this is such a long road to recovery....from such a short term use of benzos and then the AD....just want my life back.   I have never had any problems before with any medication....and then this hit....(was happy and healthy before all of this)

 

Thank you for all your advise and suggestions.....

 

Forgot to mention that sometimes I get a break in the late evening around 8 or so..... (like the end of the daily dose cycle of the AD )  

Edited August 13, 2016 by scallywag
additional paragraph breaks inserted

[Tilea]

When I first reinstated, the recommendation was for 10 beads which would be about 3 mg.....but I did 7 ....do you think I should try the 10 beads?   

[SquirrellyGirl]

Tilea, keep in mind that ADs are by nature activating, meaning more likely to cause anxiety as a side effect.  You mentioned anxiety on start up.  So, adding more in hopes of addressing anxiety seems problematic.  I think you are right, that you are likely still experiencing benzo withdrawal waves, which include anxiety, so trying to counter that with up-dosing ven could take you backwards.

 

I take my fish oil twice a day, and I have noticed if I forget it in the morning, I may have waves of body anxiety.  So, I'm pretty diligent about taking it AM/PM.  I take my magnesium AM/PM as well.

 

Brassmonkey refers to "withdrawal normal," the essence being that being "stable" doesn't necessarily mean symptom free.  We Acknowledge, Accept and Float the residual symptoms.  For me, lack of motivation is a big ongoing state but I can put up with it and don't feel it is something I need to up-dose over.  I currently am able to sleep, but if a cut were to bring on severe insomnia, that is something I would probably up-dose over.

 

SG

[JanCarol]

Hey Tilea, 

 

It is not wise to change your dose every time a wave hits.  Remember healing comes in Waves and Windows

 

It is irregular.  You will have bad days and good.  If you adjust your dose every time you have a bad day - or week - it is my guess that this will increase the number of difficulties and bad days that you have.

 

Here is my road works post about healing:

 

I really like Bubble's phrase:  "Brain is closed down for repairs."  I'd like to expand on that a bit - parts of your brain are closed down.  Imagine very complicated road works with about 25 intersections coming together.  This week, the traffic lights are shut down, and you need a cop to manage the intersection.  When that is repaired, well, maybe they need to re-do the shoulders, so they can divert traffic onto them for later when the lanes are being repaired.  Then there's the repairing of the lanes - it doesn't all happen at once.  Sometimes they need to rip up the old tarmac, change all the drainage routes, relocate the services for electricity and plumbing, get down to the foundation, and re-grade it, lay new gravel, then steel rebar, pouring concrete foundation, then laying the asphalt.  Sometimes you will go for 5 months, and the road is still closed, but you can't see what they are doing to it!  Each phase requires time to set and dry.  Then you can paint the lines on it, and go to another part of the intersection - perhaps one of the other incoming roads needs the same treatment.  Perhaps there are exit ramps and roundabouts and flyover lanes that need repair.  Each of which takes time.

 

Now imagine the millions of networks in your brain healing - they don't just, "heal" and be done.  It's a construction process, like Bubble was saying.  Road works for the brain. 

 

Just my way of saying, be patient with yourself.  It might be the tarmac this week - but the lines aren't on the road and you're disoriented.  Maybe the signals are crossed at the intersections, or the signs are removed or there are detours.  Be gentle with yourself, be patient with yourself.  It's a complex process, and the gentler you are, the more easily you will heal.  It does no good to shake your fist and yell at the construction guys while they are doing their work!  So just wave (lol, wave!) at the worker, declare to yourself, "This is yet another symptom of withdrawal," and drive carefully past the obstacle.

 

 

It is important that you learn to live through the symptoms.  Identify them, accept them, and float through them.  You float, they float away.  Clouds in the sky.  Let them come, let them go.  Symptoms are temporary.  Fear of those symptoms, can ramp them up and make them worse.  

 

I know it is uncomfortable, but here is a video I was referred to yesterday, see what you think:  Psychological flexibility:

 

You can do this!

[Tilea]

Thank you all for your replies and advise.....Tried to up the dose but had horrible nightmares....and inensity of  symptoms worse....anxiety, depression, fatigue, rapid breathing..   Was thinking that perhaps the reinstatement triggered some side effects of the AD....or triggered them more....like high bp, heart rate up, more depression, more itching, then some skin eruptions (acute dermatitis - according to dermatologist...at first we thought it was an allergic reaction....because high eosinophill count  would indicate allergy.....then yesterday read more about venlafaxine side effects and found "eosinophilia"  ...so blood work done in July showed high eosinophills, over the normal high.....blood work done in April and before showed very low count.   Could one get some diff. side effects from reinstating the drug again and throwing the system off.  Now I really want off this drug...I dont want anymore damage to my body.  I am now convinced that this drug is causing me issues.  At one time I thought it was ok....but now am terrified of it.  I did increase it for a couple of days thinking it would help the morning anxiety..but when I found the above info......now I just want off...so scared of other side effects.....(I jumped off of it before because of my high blood pressure, it was never spiking but now is and low sodium....)  Even my carpel tunnel symptoms seem worse....

 

Any advise.....Thank you for your help.

[Tilea]

Have not had any replies or suggestions.....would appreciate an answer to my last message........Just going to go down to 7 beads and stay there.  Still dosing in the evening...just tried the one day to move it a bit earlier......have symptoms  through the night and throughout the day  Thank you to anyone who replies.

[Tilea]

Can someone please advise......

[Tilea]

Are there others over 60 on this site who are going thru WD????

[brassmonkey]

Hi Tilea-- would you please update your signature so we can see what dose you're actually taking. I've tried to read back through your thread and got very confused.

 

There are a huge number of us "oldsters" here.  Personally I've celebrated my 49th birthday 15 times now (63).  As far as I can tell our oldest actual member is 79 and we have some second party members who are well into their 80s.

[Tilea]

Thanks brassmonkey....have updated signature....could you or anyone else shed some light on my messge #121.   Has anyone in their 60's or older healed from these drugs?   Trying to find some success stories for older folks or even  those with a short taper that are older.

 

thanks again.....

[Tilea]

Just one more question.... heard that we should not take antihistamines during this time.....why is that so?   If we need one what would we take?

[Altostrata]

Go to our Symptoms and Self-care forum  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/and use Search for "antihistamine."
 

[Tilea]

Thank you Altostrata....I have been reading thru that forum.   Would it be possible for someone to read post #121 and offer an opinion on whether reinstatement can bring on new symptoms that may be a major health issue....like the high eosinophil count or other symptoms. lt would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

[Tilea]

I have posted questions, but do not get any answers....just wondering why this is happening....Posts #121, 126, 129.   Would also like to know if one is having side effects from the AD during the time they are taking it....do these side effects go away when we discontinue and/or are healed.

 

could someone please help me out with this......thank you.

[brassmonkey]

Post #121 is a response by JanCarol to a question you asked earlier. Post #126 is a response by myself and #129 a response by Alto.

 

As long as a person is taking the drug they can experience side effects.  As a person tapers off the drug those side effects should diminish. Once there is no more drug in their system the side effects should disappear. Side effects should not be confused with WD symptoms which are a whole different ballgame.

[Altostrata]

Tilea, you are suffering from psychiatric drug withdrawal syndrome. We have many people on this site who have experienced similar symptoms. Quite a few are age 60 and up.
 
Please review the answers to your questions already posted in this topic.
 
It is unclear whether you have adverse reactions (itching, eye pain) to the drug or from something else. The reason we ask you to keep notes about your daily symptom pattern is to determine if the drug is causing the symptoms. If the drug is causing the symptoms, you probably would not want to increase it.
 
We've suggested you change the timing of your Effexor dosing several times. Did you try this?
 
It is possible 7 beads is not quite enough to last 24 hours. Moving, for example, 4 beads to earlier in the day by an hour or two each day can test this theory.
 
 

 

What an awful night....again up during the night with bp spiking, heart racing, chest pain, anxiety, fear.....finally calmed down to fall asleep for a couple of hours only to wake up to the same thing,....plus fatigue.   I don't know what to do anymore....up the dose to a lot higher or get off the med.   Anyone have any suggestions....this is really getting scary. These symptoms hang around all day.

 
If the drug is causing these symptoms, increasing the drug will make the symptoms worse. This is not desirable.
 
It sounds like the symptoms you have at night are caused by the Effexor you are taking in the evening.
 
This is one way to test the theory:
 

Tilea: Aha -- we didn't remember or know that you're taking Effexor at night. Effexor can be a very stimulating drug.
 
Start shifting beads from 8 pm to 8 am, or whatever time makes sense for your schedule.  Start with five at night, one in the morning. Hold there for a few days, at least 3 or 4. Shift another bead from night to am and hold. Keep doing this until you're down to 2 at night and 4 in the morning.
 
Keep notes on paper of when you take your doses and when your symptoms occur or change.

 
If your symptom pattern changes, that's probably due to the Effexor.
 

Just one more thought.....about 4 years ago I was diagnosed with an autoimmune skin disorder, which resulted in extreme itching and some rashes, scaly skin, etc...for which I took meds and it then went into remission, according to the dermatologist...But i was on effexor then.....and after reading on the drugs.com sight about skin stuff that can be caused by the AD...I am wondering if what I had then was caused by the AD and I have it now because of the AD....Talked to the dermatologist about that but he said no....drugs don't cause this....but I am still wondering about the coincidence of this stuff appearing again during the time I was taking it again.   ??????  Not sure if this is helpful info or not.

 
It is possible to be allergic to any psychiatric drug. You could have been having a reaction to Effexor.
 
I am also concerned that you said the Effexor made the eye pain worse. It does not sound like increasing Effexor is a good idea. Perhaps you should consider a switch to a little Prozac, maybe 1mg, see The Prozac switch or "bridging" with Prozac
 
Prozac comes in a liquid form for easy titration.

 

 
 

What kind of itching do you get at night?
 
If Claritin helps this, it may be an allergic reaction to something.
 
My preference in switching to Prozac would be a 4-7 day overlap in the drugs, then a fast taper off the Effexor, maybe one bead every few days.
 
Prozac may or may not be activating. It's long half-life gives a smoother ride, a little goes a long way.

  
 

Tilea, it's absolutely fine to move the effexor to the morning. We suggested doing it one bead at a time.
 
There are a few issues with 5-HTP. The main one is that there are no regulations regarding the quality of supplements.  Are you getting the amount that is indicated on the bottle?  Big pharma has its problems but at least there are rules about how much doses are allowed to vary.
 
Reinstating or updosing are about giving your CNS (central nervous system) the substance whose prescence it shaped itself around.

How your brain responds to psychiatric drugs - Rhi's description of brain remodeling

 

Histamine intolerance is related to the food you eat. If you think you are having a food reaction, you might try a very bland exclusion diet for a while and see if that helps.
 
Your system does not need additional serotonin. The problem in withdrawal is not a lack of serotonin, it's that your system is not regulating itself properly.
 
Exactly what time did you take Effexor and what time did you have "anxiety, terror, panic, head eye pain dp"? Please keep notes on paper every day.
 
To answer your other questions, please see Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

We cannot assure you that taking any drug, Effexor or Prozac, will resolve what may be a combination of benzo and antidepressant withdrawal. All we can do is ask you to listen to your body.

 

If the drug is causing your symptoms, increasing the drug makes no sense at all. If decreasing the drug makes you feel worse, the drug might be doing you some good even if it isn't totally eliminating your symptoms. If you cannot tolerate the symptoms it causes, perhaps you should go off it altogether.

 

Recovering from withdrawal requires a great deal of patience. I am sorry it's so difficult.

[nz11]

Tilea i think member caperjackie is over 60 so you could read her success story.

[ChessieCat]

Yes she is 63.  Here is the link to her topic.

[Tilea]

Thank you all for your responses.    I am at 7 beads....still have all the symptoms....they are there throughout the day...anxiety, fear, tremors, fatigue, breathlessness, irritability,overwhelmed, some depression..dp, ..sometimes less severe,   I will stay at 7 beads for a while.   Will do blood work next week to check the eosinophil count....this is a big concern right now, because this started after the reinstatement.  Had about an hour or two yesterday towards evening, where symptoms calmed down, not really a window,...but a bit of calm.  Still hanging on the best I can.  Need some reassurance that this is normal and that healing is possible.  Thank you all  

[scallywag]

Tilea, have you read threads in the success stories forum? Lots of inspiration there that healing does occur.

 

Have you read GiaK's website -- BeyondMeds? In fact GiaK recently started a thread for her story in the success stories forum.

[Tilea]

Thanks Scallywag....I will have already checked those out.    I really don"t think this reinstatement is really working.  Getting scared of this drug causing more damage. 

[Tilea]

Don't know what to do.....so much anxiety, depression...totally not functional.........fear, overwhelmed, irritable....so scared.....any suggestions.   Is there anyone who takes something to help with anxiety or depression.   Still waking up with all of this first thing in the morning.....not the most pleasant wake up call.   No tsure if this is AD or benzos.

[Tilea]

I still keep thinking about increasing my dose...from  7 to something else....I did go up to 10 beads a week or so ago....but only stayed 2 days, had horrible nightmares, got scared and brought the dose down..  But honestly since I reinstated...still have all of the same symptoms......I have had  a few tiny windows of lesser symptoms....still not totally functional.  When you increase how long do you stay on that dose and then if it doesn't work....how do you come down.   I haven't changed over to taking my dose in the morning....however, if it is AD how would I know...because I have this anxiety, depression, and all the other symptoms all day.  I know going back and forth is not good....but I may do better on a higher dose....as before I came off the AD I was getting some better windows.   Please is someone can help me or give me some reassurance or whatever....I really need help with this.   Also have had a lot of rapid breathing. like hyperventilating...have had this some time ago, but it is back.Still have the eye/head pressure and pain.Thank you for any replies..

[Tilea]

Maybe someone can answer this for me.....because I am in benzo WD....I really don't know if I have stabilized on the AD or not....but If I stay at one dose for a while and then start to taper...would that still give me a softer landing than the quick taper and jump I did earlier on in May?   Still wondering if I should increase the dose to see if anything improves....

[ChessieCat]

Hi Tilea,

 

Since 3rd August there have been suggestions about moving the time of your dose or part of your dose.

 

You stated above:  "I haven't changed over to taking my dose in the morning."

 

You also stated above:  "I did go up to 10 beads a week or so ago....but only stayed 2 days, had horrible nightmares."

 

Instead of changing the amount of your dose, it might be a good idea to try what has been suggested (on several occasions) and move the time you take your dose or part of your dose.

[bubble]

You have increased your dose a number of times and that brought an increase in symptoms. So I think this answers your question.

 

Waiitng to stabilise is very, very hard but it's our best option. Unfortunately you are having such a hard tiem stabilising because you keep changing the dose. What you are going through is a question of destabilisation and not a particular dose. And an antidote for destabilisation is keeping things steady and distract and cope with sympotms while waiitng for things to stabilise.

[Tilea]

Hello, Tilea. I think perhaps 6 beads isn't enough and you're getting withdrawal in the night. You might try taking 6 beads in the morning and 1 bead in the evening, then gradually move 1 more bead to the evening so you're taking 5 in the morning and 2 in the evening.

 

I did what was suggested in this message....therefore changing my dose to 7 beads and  I was already taking it at nighttime.  So I did that  till Aug 13.  Then I thought, because originally 10 beads was suggested....I decided to try the 10 beads....only for 2 days.  Then came back down to 7 beads....still taking it a nightime because if it is WD as Alto stated I would keep taking it at nighttime.  However, I am wondering if I am getting these symptoms in the early morning because that is when the blood plasma of the drug reaches its peak.....was trying to find a link where I read this...but can't find it at the moment.The symptoms hit between 3 and 6 and are usually head/eye pain, fear, bp spikes, heart racing....maybe cortisol but maybe AD side effects.   Maybe someone else could chime in here about that.   Sometimes by 5 pm....my symptoms are a bit calmer which might mean that there is less drug in the system.  This is why I sometimes think that the AD is causing the morning symptoms.  Mornings have always been the worst time when the symptoms are very bad...right from day 1.

 

Would appreciate some reassurance that I will be able to get off this drug and get my life back.,   Thank you for any replies.

[ChessieCat]

Alto's Post #133:

 

"We've suggested you change the timing of your Effexor dosing several times. Did you try this?
 
It is possible 7 beads is not quite enough to last 24 hours. Moving, for example, 4 beads to earlier in the day by an hour or two each day can test this theory."