hayduke: coming off olanzapine / Zyprexa

[hayduke]

Making a note of current supplement usage for the sake of logging it:

 

- 2x recent vitamin B12 shots, 1 to go

 

Once a week or more:

- Omega 3/6:  two shots hemp seeds, two shots chia seeds, two shots ground linseed in yoghurt with optional fresh fruit

- MgCl or Epsom salts via bath, foot bath or oil spray

- Niacin 500mg

- Zinc 40mg

- Manganese 10mg

 

Daily:

- Methyl Folate 400ug

- Coenzyme Q10 150mg

- Vitamin E 1500 IU

 

I've mentioned before I've had concerns about tardive dyskinesia.  Manganese and Niacin was the combo I was trying previously.  I can't say it's been hurting.  The last while I've noticed I want to stretch my hands more, drum my fingers etc now and again.  Not uncontrollably but it did get me thinking.  It mightn't be a million miles from akathisia either.  I forget where I read it, but vitamin E was also recommended against TD.  I've been taking that daily for a while and it seems to settle down that impulse which is good indeed.

 

I notice a little boost to energy levels from the CoQ10, again welcome.  I shelved the creatine because it was piling on weight...don't need any help with that!

 

With caffeine I've got down to either one teabag of Earl Grey in the morning, or 2 grams espresso coffee.  I thought I could CT the caffeine from here but nope 🙂  too debilitating.  I like the taste of coffee better than tea as well.

 

Giving up coffee is much harder than most people think, or will admit.  Having done it twice before I knew the way down.

 

My hack is now to blend decaf with full strength espresso.  A standard espresso is about 7g of coffee so 2g coffee + 5g decaf and I get exactly what I want 🙂

 

I'll now taper nice and slowly till it's 100% decaf.

 

Cheers

[BadMedicine]

Hey @hayduke. 

Sounds like you have had a tough time recently. The Bush fires are terrible and I'm sorry you have been so personally affected and that your work has been so unsympathetic. You definitely did the right thing taking some time off for your mental health. In my experience work will take as much out of you as they can so you have to push back a bit when things get unreasonable.

I'm sure that all this stress has affected how you feel on 1.5mg and hopefully these external stressors will diminish soon and make the continued taper more comfortable. I know what you mean about wanting to be off the drugs. It's not nice to be so dependent on something to be able to live but hopefully you won't come across problems with supply before you are able to get off it.

In terms of the sleep - how much did you need before taking olanzapine? Maybe you are getting back to a more natural rhythm now that you don't have the heavy sedating effect at these lower doses.

I'm afraid I can't give you any insight into what it's like below 1.5mg as I am still on 5mg. In fact I am looking to you for inspiration and reassurance that it is possible to get off this drug. I hope someone else can give you some advice.

Good luck with your continued taper and hope you stay safe from the Bush fires.

 

[hayduke]

Thanks for the kind words @BadMedicine

 

How are you going?

 

Feeling a lot better this week with the rain.  Just rested and recharged over the weekend, it's been nice and quiet.  Today starting to feel a bit of energy again (work will take care of that before long though 😉 )

 

I'm sure you're right about sleep.  The sedative effects of the drug are much less marked at this point, and it would be my normal pattern re-emerging.  Last seen 17 years ago!  Much of my current sleep is lighter, and it is summer, but I'm still managing 7-9 hrs most nights.  Waking quite early a lot of the time but can often fall back into another REM cycle or two.  And taking nanna naps when not at work.

 

Finding consciously long slow exhales with open mouth can be quite helpful to fall asleep.  Yay yoga.

 

I just had my 3rd vitamin B12 shot of 3 today, and last night I made the second olanzapine cut in this set of four.  I'm at 1.178mg right now which is around the level I got antsy before the hold, so I'll see how I go.

 

On a whim switched to a 25ml pipette which is a bit easier to wrangle and suits the 2.5mg tablet i'm titrating without doing any maths (unless you count moving the decimal point 🙂 )

 

Cheers

[Miko789]

 

Good that you have relax time with friends. need that too.

 how are bushfires in your area?

 

naps during the day are envigorating

[hayduke]

Miko, we had a quiet week with a bit of rain which was some welcome rest, but hot, dry and wind yesterday so the portal to hell opening again.  Also a C-130 water bomber crashed in the Snowy Mountains yesterday which is awful.

 

Naps are great, I think Spain gets it right with Siesta.  There's nowhere to take them at my work.  

At this stage in my wds I'm sleeping shorter amounts overnight but napping in the arvo too.  I think biphasic sleep like this is more normal as you get older.  I'm doing ok, thanks.

[hayduke]

The work problems seem to be clearing up which is promising.

 

Had a busy day yesterday with work and a visit to my psychologist.  Was helpful to air some work and family issues and talk about the bushfire stresses.  The usual stuff which would help most people 🙂

 

Then to yoga which was great, I hadn't been for a month.  Slept well and felt myself unwinding through the day today. 

 

Fourth cut in the set due on the weekend.  Some low moods and mild derealisation at the hardest points in this set, and working memory isn't stellar right now.  Sluggish some mornings too but that's never been unusual for me.  Four weeks since last weed use and still reducing caffeine so I'm not surprised it's been a tad lumpy for now.  The weed took the edge off the occasional hard day but I felt it's more bother than help lately.  Anyway that's evening out gradually.

 

Good to be moving on the taper again.

[carefulprayerful]

On 3/21/2019 at 8:26 PM, hayduke said:

If I’ve learnt one thing, it’s that you have to take charge of your own healing.  No one else can do it for you.  Shop around and find supportive crew who will back you up - they’re out there.  Breggin observes that signalling helplessness is what lands you in hot water in this rather unhealthy society.

@haydukeThank you for sharing this.  I think we really do have to steer the ship.  Get informed and seek what we need.  Glad to read you only have one drug to taper off.  Congratulations on your progress! 

Best, CarefulP

[Carmie]

Hi Hayduke, 

 

Good to hear that you’re marching forth with your tapering. It’s a long, slow process, isn’t it? I’ve got forever still to go but each drop is a step closer to getting off these meds. 
 

Sending hugs🤗

[hayduke]

Cheers @Carmie

 

Wayyyy longer than any of us would like...but better than rushing it!

 

*hugs*

[hayduke]

Quick update.

 

2 weeks into the hold, not much discomfort.  Some real fatigue at times though.  Down to 1.5g of coffee a day, padded to a full shot with decaf.

 

Sleeping closer to 7 hours a night than 8 most nights (except when I have to wake up for work and could sleep for hours - typical pattern I recall from before being drugged) and sometimes 6, but not too terrible.  Feeling the sleep I'm getting is good quality most nights.

 

Any hint of ragged symptoms from the cuts are abating as the hold continues, so the usual pattern.  Next set of cuts due in a week.

 

It's been raining a fair bit which is super nice.

 

Cheers

[hayduke]

Made the second cut in this set this week, to 1.03mg.  Next week's will be 1mg - a nice milestone!

 

Things are going ok.  Seven weeks since any weed, feeling pretty steady with that now.  Sometimes I have to try not to be crabby, and there's been occasional derealisation but not stopping me from doing anything.  Been trying L-Theanine capsules (green tea extract) as well and while not unpleasant the DR seems to follow those, so I'll put those aside for now.

 

Raised the CoQ10 from 150 to 300mg and feels like I have more energy, and I notice when I don't take it.  Last few days trying 600mg, not a small amount but it seems to be helping too.  I suspect mitochondrial damage from 17 years of olanzapine and risperidone.

 

Feeling clear headed (so glad this is persisting since Easter's EMDR) and functional overall, sleep is a reasonable 6.5-9 hrs a night.  Often around 7 hrs, but no discomfort and I'm taking naps in the arvo when I can.   I used to struggle with cognition when I got really tired, but since the EMDR that's just no longer a problem.  A bit of a marvel I reckon 🙂

 

Started my yoga again this year which is also a valuable part of the healing process.

 

I'm not sure how much longer the remainder of my taper will take, but starting to feel better overall as I approach 1mg after that challenging patch from 1.4mg down.

 

Cheers

[Driven]

Congrats Hayduke on your upcoming 1mg milestone.  You should be really proud of that! 

 

You as well as a few others on here who have tapered slowly are going to be the guiding light for me when I start my journey off 5mg soon.   

[hayduke]

Thank you @Driven!

 

An update:

Down to the 1.00mg this week and am pretty happy with that.  Really feeling like I'm coming out of the clouds now.  Mood is better overall, I have more energy and my cognition is improving.

 

Forebrain can feel a little bit 'sore' and need a rest after intensity of working in the city but quiet and nature is dandy.  A bit like starting up a motor that's been sitting in the shed for a few years - gently does it!  Memory is not always the greatest but I'm not alarmed at this point.

 

I've gone back to 300mg CoQ10 from the short stint at 600mg, it seems to be doing the trick.

Have been taking 1500IU/day of Vitamin E for some months now and this seems effective at keeping twitches or tremors away - while those have been minor when they were occurring, anything that wards off potential tardive dyskinesia is on my radar.  I really should write down where I read these things, but my experience with the Vitamin E so far is good, better than just the manganese and niacin combo I was leaning on before.

 

I have no doubt the course of B12 shots really helped overall with mood and energy levels too.

Continuing with MgCl foot baths and a bowl of yogurt with chia, linseed and hemp seeds for Omega 3 several times a week.

My sleep is often 6-7 hours now with an occasional 8, but the quality of it is good, and now it's getting colder here that will help too.  Also finding myself waking earlier.

Meditation and yoga continuing to help.

 

Cheers

[hayduke]

Broke a 60 hr fast this arvo, felt really good to relax and let my body tidy itself up after a stressful summer full of adrenaline and cortisol and the predictable comfort eating that's followed.  Felt it was well due and my body responded well to it, lots of rest, naps, a bit of walking in nature and very little discomfort.  Got 8 1/2 hrs sleep the other night.  Still feeling better and positive since reaching 1.0mg.

 

Down to 0.97 tonight.

[hayduke]

Very pleased with the outcome of the fast, would've liked to have gone longer and will do more soon.  Boosting the immune system is only one of many benefits.

 

Pissed off that after the hardest summer ever we now have this bloody SARS Mk 2 bug wrecking the autumn as well.  No doubt our pitiful excuse for a govt will deal with this crisis as adeptly as the last, I'm betting on a ham-fisted charade.

 

Thanks @Zyprexa19 for letting me know about magnesium l-threonate - a gramme or two once or twice a day is proving quite beneficial.

 

Still feeling like the gate's opening wider now below 1mg, and better all round.  Wish I could say the same for the world outside.

 

Weighed a 2.5mg tablet of olanzapine at just under 1/10 of a gramme, which means that even with three decimal places on the scales you'd introduce something like 5% inaccuracy into the final dose if you wanted to halve them in order to double the mileage, so shelving that idea.  Storing suspended liquid also seems like a bad idea from memory.  It's a waste but dosage accuracy is more important.

 

Feeling ok to keep making cuts.

[Glosmom]

Congratulations on getting below 1.0, @hayduke!  You are making great progress and so happy the 'gate opening is wider'!  I fear the humans in healthcare (doctors) and the humans in government are merely that....humans.   Relying on ourselves for our own best health and being as independent as possible from the supposed 'powers that be' seems to simplify life for the better and improve joy....at least in my little world.   Best wishes to you for an ever improving condition this Autumn!  Glosmom

 

[hayduke]

@Glosmom cheers for the kind words.  Yes, better to be among the goats than the sheep methinks!

[hayduke]

An update:

 

Broke a 108 hour fast this morning.  It's gone well.  Dropped over 4kg, though the bulk of that will probably come back.  Reading up on the many benefits of this practice, which aside from burning fat include autolysis, improving insulin sensitivity and apparently mitochondrial repair.  After so many years on these drugs and the neuroplastic effects of withdrawal letting the body do some housekeeping feels quite due.

 

On higher doses of the olanzapine 3 day fasts seemed about as long as was sensible, have done a few of those now, though once or twice I felt it wasn't the right time.  I could be wrong but it feels like sub 1mg I am nearly out of the woods and my body is ready to start shedding lard from the atrocious metabolic side effects of the olanzapine.

 

With everyone more or less housebound at the moment it seems the ideal time to do these longer fasts.  I'm working remotely part of the time and feel fortunate not to be in the dole queue at the moment.

 

It was interesting last night taking the scheduled dose of olanzapine and feeling it interrupt my cognition.  I'm not at a point where I could CT comfortably yet but am keen to be done with its influence on my organism.

 

I've been stepping down at the brass monkey 2.5%/wk though I skipped the last extra two week hold.  It's not always comfortable but it's within what I can tolerate at the moment.  Still a net 10%/mo.  Will keep at this till my body says a hold is required - I'm reminded of times between 5mg and 2.5mg where I was able to come down quite fast and remain functional though not always in Cadillac comfort.

 

I hope everyone is looking after themselves during lock down and staying safe and comfortable.  I have plenty to do around the house and don't mind not going into the office.  The number of friends and people in general out of work is alarming though.

I did like this vox pop from the paper:  “I don’t think the world is going to be the same after this,” Ward says. “Maybe, I hope, it will be a little bit fairer for people who don’t have as much. If capitalism can’t last two weeks without completely falling apart maybe it’s time to look for something a bit f**king better.”

[Jt003]

Hey hayduke!  Great that you are doing well!  Just curious when you went down slowly over several months on it, did you feel less like a zombie and as if your personality and emotions were coming back?

[hayduke]

15 minutes ago, Jt003 said:

Hey hayduke!  Great that you are doing well!  Just curious when you went down slowly over several months on it, did you feel less like a zombie and as if your personality and emotions were coming back?

 

Thanks Jt003.  I started noticing real improvements in interpersonal interactions, relationships and emotional intelligence at around 2.5mg.  Overall it keeps getting better.  I did hit a bit of a hump from around 1.4 to 1.25mg, but that settled after a hold.

Every now and again I reflect on certain life decisions of the last say 10 years and realise how much better I would've handled many of those without the cotton wool of the drug.  Not blaming myself, mind.  Some of that improvement is due to the EMDR as well.

[Miko789]

1. Great update Hayduke,

 and fasting really helps some times, now that lockdown is happening things are not easy for all,  you should see below 2,5mg ola  improved metabolism, great update

Stay safe

Miko

[hayduke]

Cheers @Miko789 , it does seem to be improving but I think it's going to be disrupting my metabolism to some extent till I'm right off it.  There was that post on the Last Psychiatrist blog where he discusses the mechanism of how it messes up your body's fat & sugar burn.  Anyways yes definitely feeling better the more I go.

 

Update:  I've put on about half of the weight difference since fasting which is to be expected since much of the decrease is water.  Feeling pretty good and maybe eating a little bit healthier.  Energy levels seem improved somewhat.  I'll do another soon.

 

The last eight 2.5% cuts have been weekly, but without the usual Brass Monkey hold in the middle.  The set's taken me from 1.06mg to 0.85mg.  I'm happy enough with the pace and will hold for a bit here now.  Sleep has been adequate to good - colder autumn weather helps there.  I think having put the devil's lettuce aside for now probably also allows a more straightforward rate of cuts, plus with the corona virus about it's good to be looking after your lungs.

 

Staying relatively comfy and occupied among the quarantine but definitely looking forward to a chicken parmie at the pub at some future time!

[hayduke]

Cruising along, love not having to go into the office.  Working 100% remotely is still work and carries that stress, but it's much quieter and more comfortable, cooking more etc.

 

3 week hold went well, started the next round of cuts on monday night, all fine.

 

Cheers

 

[hayduke]

Body was telling me to lay off the grog as it's too energy sapping during wds.

 

Fifth day with no alcohol today, feeling pretty good.  Allowing myself more sugary foods than usual, that should settle back down in a while.  Also taking 100mg I-theanine 2-3 times a day, and feeling ok overall.  A bit more energy and a clearer mind.  I think the EMDR work made me comfortable enough in my own skin that I'm not constantly feeling a need to self-medicate with grog etc - c/w beforehand when that was my default mode.  I'll see how I go anyway but it all feels like progress.

 

Also down to 0.5g coffee a day, less than a tenth of an espresso.  Not too far to zero now, though not just yet - got headaches and irritability after skipping two days.

 

The olanzapine taper is going fine, did the 4th 2.5% weekly cut to 0.74mg Monday and will see about another set of four this Monday.  A hold at 0.625mg is on the cards, I'll see when I get there.

 

Work etc going ok, loving the extra energy and quiet from not going into the city.  It's comfortable here, probably helps ease the taper.

 

Cheers

[hayduke]

Was feeling ok for another 2.5% cut yesterday till mid arvo, when I got a bit of a headachey, almost fluey feeling and just rested after that.  Knowing wds can feel a bit fluey, it's happened a few times, I had an early night and slept well.  I took pretty much every helpful supplement in the arsenal before bed which helped, I think.

 

Felt reasonable when I woke up, sluggish (good sign of deep sleep).  Slow day, didn't push myself at work.  Wound up taking half a serepax to appease my GABA receptors during some long meetings and a little anxiety.  Won't lean on those a lot, I only take them rarely, but was glad it was there today.

 

Thinking my body didn't want another olanzapine cut yet while my neuroplasticity is getting used to 9 days (and counting) of not having a relaxing beer or three in the evening. 

 

The good thing is I'm not actually craving alcohol which makes it much easier to ride out the occasional discomforts.

[hayduke]

The headaches stopped after two weeks.  Definitely got more energy and focus, and feeling comfortable most of the time.  Glad I decided to get off the cans, I think it's doing me good.  Not even reaching for the l-theanine last couple of days, though still feeding myself sweets more than I am used to.

 

Been three weeks since the last 2.5% cut, thinking I'll make the next tomorrow night.

[BadMedicine]

@hayduke sorry I haven't been on this forum for a while but have been following your progress. Congratulations on getting under 1mg and with your continued successful reductions. That is quite a milestone. Bet you can see the light at the end of the tunnel now!

[hayduke]

Thanks @BadMedicine , hope you've been out enjoying real life as much as possible!

 

I've been going a bit slower on the taper again lately, probably aggravated by stupid stressful things that are (mostly lol) beyond my control.  And readjusting my habits to include a lot less alcohol.  But doing ok.

 

I had a 2.5% cut scheduled for last night but experience taught me to let it slide another week.  Confident that was the sensible decision today.  Pretty close to 0.625mg now, 1/4 tab, and of course wanting to get there.  I may hold for a bit then.

 

Sleep is 6-7 hrs most nights lately, less than I'd like but it's not that bad.  9 1/2 the other night was great.

 

I've been storing each olanzapine suspension in the fridge after I make them the last few months, and drawing my dose from that each night.  No apparent problems with this approach and getting triple the mileage per pill just now.

 

Nearly down to zero coffee, about 1/4 gramme espresso padded out with 10 of decaf.  No longer taking the CoQ10 since without my previous alcohol intake it doesn't seem necessary, but using L-theanine 100mg 2-4 times a day.  I am really finding it helpful.  I also found some delayed release (or something) fish oil caps that I keep in the freezer and so far no reflux.  It's ok but I'm not sure it's really better than ground hemp seeds.  Also 1000IU Vitamin E and still the methyl folate as well.

 

Looking forward to the day I can fall asleep in the evening then not have to jolt myself awake to get up and take this muck.

 

Cheers

[senseless]

11 minutes ago, hayduke said:

I've been storing each olanzapine suspension in the fridge after I make them the last few months, and drawing my dose from that each night.  No apparent problems with this approach and getting triple the mileage per pill just now.

 

Hello just out of curiosity how do you make your suspension, with just water? I was under the impression suspensions lose their potency over time.

 

Also do you think your cognition has improved as you have lowered your dose? 

Anyway congrats on getting this far  look forward to your success story

[hayduke]

12 minutes ago, senseless said:

 

Hello just out of curiosity how do you make your suspension, with just water? I was under the impression suspensions lose their potency over time.

 

Also do you think your cognition has improved as you have lowered your dose? 

Anyway congrats on getting this far  look forward to your success story

 

Hi Senseless,

 

Yep I just use filtered water from a jug I keep in the fridge.  Basically Rhi's method - wait for the tablet to crumble, then shake/agitate.  At present each batch is gone after 3 days and it seems ok.  I've seen a week given as the sensible upper limit to store it in a thread here somewhere.

 

Yes, definitely better cognition.  Socially better as well, feeling deeper communication is possible with friends especially.  All that stuff the frontal lobe has evolved to do in the first place 🙂

 

Cheers

[hayduke]

A quick update.  Tonight's 2.5% cut to 0.615mg brings me to under 1/4 of one of these tablets per day now.  WD-normal for some time now, I keep noticing improvements now and again, and typically getting 8 hrs sleep most nights.

 

Started a different brand of generic as well, 'Olanzapine RBX'.  They're smaller, weigh less and don't disintegrate as easily in water.  Once I broke open the coating it seemed to be ok.  I'll have to keep an eye out for any apparent differences in effect.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Shep
removed graph, per Hayduke's request to remove attachments to allow for future images

[hayduke]

Hasn't been a bad week, but a little ragged at times from the last cuts and change of brand.  Clear today it's time to hold for another couple of weeks.

 

Managed to sleep 9 1/2 hrs the other night and felt like a million bucks yesterday.  Will miss the winter weather for sleeping in a month or two.

 

The fish oil is starting to come up as reflux which is yucko.  I'll see about making a bunch of hemp chia and linseed frogurt instead.  Magnesium L-Threonate continues to be really helpful.  Still using 1000IU Vit E and the methyl folate.

 

No akathisia for a couple of months.  A good sign that the dopamine aspect of the taper is probably mostly done now. 

 

The foremost remaining symptom is mild DR some of the time, but it's not stopping me from doing much and I'm used to it so it's not upsetting.  I can also see it will be gone one day.  I'd take it any day over the dissociation I used to suffer.  There's been no sign of it since the EMDR which I think says a lot.

 

Most of the hold of the drug seems gone at this point, but it would still be too disruptive to jump off here unless that was vital.  Serotonin maybe, any RO curves for it I've found are vague at best, but quite steep around here from my scribblings.  Always keen to get to zero soon but the body sets the pace.

 

Cheers

[ChessieCat]

 

Oooooo, getting low now. 

 

1 hour ago, hayduke said:

The fish oil is starting to come up as reflux which is yucko.

 

Have you tried freezing them and taking them that way?  It is a suggestion if you do a search:  freeze fish oil capsules to stop reflux

[hayduke]

46 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Oooooo, getting low now. 

 

 

Have you tried freezing them and taking them that way?  It is a suggestion if you do a search:  freeze fish oil capsules to stop reflux

 

Aye, got 'odourless mini-caps' and keep them in the freezer.  The reflux wasn't an issue for a few weeks but 3 times this week is enough.  I've had to deal with reflux all my life though it's not usually a big problem.  I'm not conscious of the fish oil actually feeling any better than the hemp yogurt, so I'll try and fill the freezer with servings of those ready to go instead.  Cheers

 

[BadMedicine]

@haydukeGlad things are generally going well. You are so low now - it must feel great. I have also found when I have occassionally got a different brand that it disturbed things for a bit. I remember my sleep being really light for about a week after it changed so could well be contributing to your symptoms. Hopefully should settle down quickly but I do wish the pharmacies wouldn't keep chopping and changing which brands they supply! It is very disruptive.

[hayduke]

Cheers @BadMedicine, I had a doctor's note to release a few month's worth to me at the start of quarantine.  Normally the script only releases a month's worth at a time here.  The chemist's had been busy so the other brand is what they had, and they did apologise.  As it turns out, I'm 2 weeks into a 3 week hold after swapping, and it's not a big disruption thankfully. 

 

Quite enjoying the hold and taking a breather from more cuts.  Mid winter is so good for sleep...seeing 8 hrs most nights.