Sleepan: amitriptyline cold turkey - 4th week reinstatement in peril as I started cardiac coherence

[Sleepan]

3 hours ago, Rosetta said:

I’m sorry.  I wrote a response, but I lost it, and I can’t write it again right now.  I’m thinking of you.  I’m so sorry that you are struggling.  Ambien and Zopiclone can intensify WD.  If you take them, take a fraction of the dose recommended by the physician.  
 

Oh, I posted it on your thread.  It’s not lost! 

Dear @Rosetta I read your lengthy response saying I should not take supplements right now, and to start by one only.  As for Ambien and Zopiclone, I'm not inclined to take them anymore. This year was the first time I try them, but it appears to only makes things worse after.  I was just hoping it will give me some relief, but the payback is not worth it.  Thank you again, Rosetta.

[Sleepan]

1 hour ago, brassmonkey said:

Flax seed oil is a good vegan alternative to fish oil.

 

I would be very careful with the Lion's Mane; it is one of the supplements we do not recommend. Do a site search (upper right corner of the screen) there is a lot of discussion on the subject.

 

A small updose to 4.0 shouldn't be a problem.

Thank you @brassmonkey I take good note of this. I'll get Flax seed oil. I put my supplements away. I'll wait awhile, and I'll start with one and see how it goes. 

 

I found a study while searching Amitriptyline interaction with Melatonin saying Melatonin prevent damage on cells done by Amitriptyline which is what I took so many years. I never found Melatonin to help me to sleep but a 3mg could be a good thing for me to try soon enough, yes? 

Cytoprotective Effects of Melatonin Against Amitriptyline-Induced Toxicity in Isolated Rat Hepatocytes - PubMed (nih.gov)

[Sleepan]

13 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Thank you @brassmonkey I take good note of this. I'll get Flax seed oil. I put my supplements away. I'll wait awhile, and I'll start with one and see how it goes. 

 

I found a study while searching Amitriptyline interaction with Melatonin saying Melatonin prevent damage on cells done by Amitriptyline which is what I took so many years. I never found Melatonin to help me to sleep but a 3mg could be a good thing for me to try soon enough, yes? 

Cytoprotective Effects of Melatonin Against Amitriptyline-Induced Toxicity in Isolated Rat Hepatocytes - PubMed (nih.gov)

Update: I chose to try again Melatonin 3mg that I took the last two nights and did not work and I slept in two parts. First part, I dreamed but don't remember it, then second part of the night, I had a vivid nightmare dream. First time I sleep and have dreams since many months.

 

In the vivid dream, I was in a house with other people, then a couple came in dressed as salvation army type requesting donations. Inside a desk near I made them sit, I found my wallet full of dollars coming out from it. But I gave them $5, left them sitting there.  Later on, I search my wallet not remembering it was in the desk and when I looked, it was not there anymore. Distraught, I left the house, start to wander in the streets, getting lost, no papers, no money, becoming an homeless person. I started begging for a bus ticket finally found a man in a shop who gave me one, took a bus in a hurry but it was the wrong direction and asked him how to get to a corner which was where I was living with my parents when I was a teenage. Finally, I woke up as I was becoming too anxious about it.  I searched for explanation of this dream explanation: one says it indicates a divine influence, going on an emotional journey where you do not know where it ends.

 

After awaking, I searched for Melatonin and found it is better to take it only when needed and as rare as possible, as Melatonin should be let produced naturally by the brain.

 

Conclusion:  I'm amazed I'm finally sleeping just 2 days after updosing to 4mg. I'm doubly resolved to put a rein on my impulsivity and only take my 4mg dose w/out supplements to let my brain heal by itself.

 

Sleepan. 

[Sleepan]

1 minute ago, Sleepan said:

Update: I chose to try again Melatonin 3mg that I took the last two nights and did not work and I slept in two parts. First part, I dreamed but don't remember it, then second part of the night, I had a vivid nightmare dream. First time I sleep and have dreams since many months.

 

In the vivid dream, I was in a house with other people, then a couple came in dressed as salvation army type requesting donations. Inside a desk near I made them sit, I found my wallet full of dollars coming out from it. But I gave them $5, left them sitting there.  Later on, I search my wallet not remembering it was in the desk and when I looked, it was not there anymore. Distraught, I left the house, start to wander in the streets, getting lost, no papers, no money, becoming an homeless person. I started begging for a bus ticket finally found a man in a shop who gave me one, took a bus in a hurry but it was the wrong direction and asked him how to get to a corner which was where I was living with my parents when I was a teenage. Finally, I woke up as I was becoming too anxious about it.  I searched for explanation of this dream explanation: one says it indicates a divine influence, going on an emotional journey where you do not know where it ends.

 

After awaking, I searched for Melatonin and found it is better to take it only when needed and as rare as possible, as Melatonin should be let produced naturally by the brain.

 

Conclusion:  I'm amazed I'm finally sleeping just 2 days after updosing to 4mg. I'm doubly resolved to put a rein on my impulsivity and only take my 4mg dose w/out supplements to let my brain heal by itself.

 

Sleepan. 

Sorry for some confusion in my writing. Lol.  

[getofflex]

21 hours ago, Sleepan said:

D3, B12,

Just an FYI that these vitamins may contribute to insomnia.  You may consider eliminating these, at least for now, to see if you sleep better without them.  

 

I second what others said about supplements, and sticking to the magnesium and omega 3.  Here is our topic about supplements: 

 

Supplements, Vitamins, etc.

[Sleepan]

6 hours ago, getofflex said:

Just an FYI that these vitamins may contribute to insomnia.  You may consider eliminating these, at least for now, to see if you sleep better without them.  

 

I second what others said about supplements, and sticking to the magnesium and omega 3.  Here is our topic about supplements: 

 

Supplements, Vitamins, etc.

Thank you @getofflex for those interesting threads about supplements. @Rosetta convinced me already to stop supplements for awhile to rest my hypersensitive brain bc of the withdrawal at this point. 

 

I think it will be interesting for me to wait a week or more, before I add Omega 3 or Magnesium.  I want to test Omega 3 alone.  Then I will test Magnesium alone because I'm not certain Magnesium works well for me.  I have Doctor's Best 100% chelated.  The only way I'll know for sure is to test each individually.

 

Last night, I could not resist trying for the 3rd night Melatonin 3mg sublingual, a supplement I bought three days ago. I finally slept most part of the night with dreams, after +3 months of total insomnia. Maybe Melatonin helped, or maybe it is because I updose at 4mg.

 

I'm amazed how updosing 0.3mg has made the miracle to make me sleep again.  I'll see tonight if it works again.  I do a lot of deep breathing exercices which are helpful, and when it is sundown, I keep all lights very low and it is very helpful too.  My symptoms also are a little less acute except a diarrhea crisis after lunch, yesterday and today.  

 

As @Altostrata said in the thread on supplements, the Forum would not need to exist if supplements could help wd symptoms.

 

You @getofflex are my lifesaver.  I'm very grateful.  You're helping to focus now, be patient and not impulsive.  Thank you.  

[Sleepan]

Just now, Sleepan said:

Thank you @getofflex for those interesting threads about supplements. @Rosetta convinced me already to stop supplements for awhile to rest my hypersensitive brain bc of the withdrawal at this point. 

 

I think it will be interesting for me to wait a week or more, before I add Omega 3 or Magnesium.  I want to test Omega 3 alone.  Then I will test Magnesium alone because I'm not certain Magnesium works well for me.  I have Doctor's Best 100% chelated.  The only way I'll know for sure is to test each individually.

 

Last night, I could not resist trying for the 3rd night Melatonin 3mg sublingual, a supplement I bought three days ago. I finally slept most part of the night with dreams, after +3 months of total insomnia. Maybe Melatonin helped, or maybe it is because I updose at 4mg.

 

I'm amazed how updosing 0.3mg has made the miracle to make me sleep again.  I'll see tonight if it works again.  I do a lot of deep breathing exercices which are helpful, and when it is sundown, I keep all lights very low and it is very helpful too.  My symptoms also are a little less acute except a diarrhea crisis after lunch, yesterday and today.  

 

As @Altostrata said in the thread on supplements, the Forum would not need to exist if supplements could help wd symptoms.

 

You @getofflex are my lifesaver.  I'm very grateful.  You're helping to focus now, be patient and not impulsive.  Thank you.  

P.S.  I will not take Melatonin 3mg daily again.  I know now it is not to be taken daily, but only in case of emergency, i.e. very stressful days as an example.

[brassmonkey]

Melatonin actually is not a "sleeping pill". It is a chemical trigger that tells your body it's time to go to sleep. A small dose is often better than a large one. 0.5mg is frequently enough, using higher doses can go paradoxical and help keep a person awake.

 

I suspect that the small updose is what is helping you to sleep better.

[Sleepan]

I agree with you @brassmonkey that it was the small updose which helped me to sleep better.  I was not expecting it at all.  It is a good surprise for sure.

 

I'll remember to go for 0.5 melatonin next time.  I do not want to use it again except on very unexpected stressful days as we can't control everything that happens to us all the time.  Brains are able to make its own melatonin when darkness comes in evenings. 

 

All vitamins and supplements inc. melatonin are great for people who are not withdrawing from psych pills.  But for us who do withdraw, I agree our brains are too hypersensitive.

 

Thank you for your help. 

 

[getofflex]

17 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Last night, I could not resist trying for the 3rd night Melatonin 3mg sublingual, a supplement I bought three days ago. I finally slept most part of the night with dreams, after +3 months of total insomnia. Maybe Melatonin helped, or maybe it is because I updose at 4mg.

 

I'm amazed how updosing 0.3mg has made the miracle to make me sleep again.  I'll see tonight if it works again. 

Please stay with the 4.0 mg dose for a while.  Be very consistent with it, meaning take this precise dose, every day, at the same time each day.  I'm very glad you are able to get some sleep again.  If it were me, I would stay on the 4.0 mg dose for at least several months, as in 3 to 6 months.  That will really give your nervous system a chance to rest.  Sleep is important, and we want to preserve it if possible.  Don't be shocked if you have some waves during this hold period, and don't react by changing the dose of your drug, or throwing in supplements.  I'm very glad you are feeling better!  

[Sleepan]

5 hours ago, getofflex said:

Please stay with the 4.0 mg dose for a while.  Be very consistent with it, meaning take this precise dose, every day, at the same time each day.  I'm very glad you are able to get some sleep again.  If it were me, I would stay on the 4.0 mg dose for at least several months, as in 3 to 6 months.  That will really give your nervous system a chance to rest.  Sleep is important, and we want to preserve it if possible.  Don't be shocked if you have some waves during this hold period, and don't react by changing the dose of your drug, or throwing in supplements.  I'm very glad you are feeling better!  

Thank you @getofflex  I will stay with the 4.0 dose for a while for sure, every day, same time.  Unfortunately, I didn't sleep last night. Apparently, it was the Melatonin 3mg that put me to sleep the night before, not updosing to 4mg. 

 

I'm not really surprised, maybe you aren't either. I do not despair that it will come. Around midnight, I got up and talked to a friend who told me to take melatonin again. I cut the dose in half, and it did nothing. Well done for me. At night I am much weaker in resisting temptation. 😳 

 

I tried sleeping pills this year for the first time. At the hospital, they gave me Tropiclone once, and in March, not sleeping, I asked my doctor for it. But as I was recovering from my surgery and quite weak, the effect was to raise my blood pressure, even though I only took it on three occasions. I panicked and went to the ER who gave me a beta-blocker that I only took for a week. Fact is, I have no issue with my blood pressure which is around 125/75 and my pulse at 75 so I do not need prescription for that.

 

At the end of May, I asked the doctor for Ambien 5mg and took it every other day three times, and it worked well. I repeated once a month, but soon the dose was not enough, and it said on the prescription that I could take 10mg, but the effect increased my insomnia afterwards. I stopped Ambien and sometimes resumed Tropiclone, but without any benefit for my insomnia.

 

My question now: can I take Melatonin 3mg sometimes, and how long should I wait before I do it again, without affecting my progress in my reduction of Amitriptyline?

 

I need to know as it will help me to wait to know which date it will be reasonable to do so, as it is very hard not to sleep and I can't stop desiring to relieve myself with a night here and there with a good sleep and some dreams, without destroying my healing for sleeping myself naturally in a near future. Thank you for your patience and interest in helping me.

 

Very grateful,

Sleepan.

[getofflex]

I assume you are no longer using the Ambient or zoplicone?  Be extremely careful, as these cause dependency, and may further destabilize your nervous system, and cause more symptoms.  There are other non drug techniques to help with sleep: 

 

Withdrawal Insomnia

 

Please don't forget about the windows and waves pattern.  I still have nights where I don't sleep much, either, and other nights where I can sleep.  Withdrawal does have a non linear up and down pattern, so you could just be in a wave.  It's not a good idea to react to waves by adding drugs and supplements, which tend to further destabilize us.  Here are some other insights and thoughts about this. 

 

Post by Gridley About Insomnia

 

Here I what I have done to help myself: 

 

1) don't get overly anxious about it.  Realize that eventually, your sleep will improve.  Insomnia won't kill you, although it can make you pretty dang miserable.  Anxiety about sleep just makes the problem worse.  I know, easier said than done. I don't always do this, but I try.  Practice acceptance.

 

2) listen to very soft relaxing music at a very low volume.  

 

3) don't worry about what time it is.  Don't look at the clock.  

 

4) I try to stay active during the first half of the day.  I take a walk (mine is one hour) after breakfast every day.  Then, as the day goes on, gradually slow down.  Several hours before bed, I only do very relaxing things, like read, or just sit and relax.  This helps to set our circadian rhythm.  Try to get outside and get some light exposure during the day, too. 

 

5) Avoid toxic, negative people.  Avoid stress when possible, although I know a lot of stressors are unavoidable.   For me, this can really help me to relax better.  

 

6) I stay away from MSG and aspartame.  These are exitotoxins which overstimulate the nervous system.  They are in a lot of our modern processed foods.  I try to eat more whole and natural, and not as many processed foods.  Also avoid processed meats with sodium nitrate, etc , such as hotdogs, ham, bacon, and sausage.  These can keep you up at night too.

 

7) avoid eating large amounts of sugar and processed carbohydrates.  This causes your blood glucose to spike up, which causes your pancreas to create insulin to control your blood sugar, which then causes your blood sugar to drop too low, and then your to create adrenaline to try to regulate your blood sugar.  Adrenaline keeps you awake because it is an activating hormone.

 

9) too much sodium (salt) can cause your blood pressure and heart rate to rise, and make it hard to sleep.

 

[Sleepan]

Thank you @getofflex for this additional info on how to cure insomnia. 

 

Within "withdrawal insomnia", the topic on Melatonin interested me greatly.  @Altostrata wrote in 2011 it is beneficial to take Melatonin every night in the smallest dose possible. Is this is still believed true?   I had a pleasant efficient experience two nights ago with Melatonin 3mg sublingual which is not a sleeping pill and which I purchased end of December.  According to what I read in above topic, it seems it would not make my insomnia worse.  Melatonin does not work for everyone, but it seems I found one that do work for me. However, maybe it is more prudent for me to wait until mid-January to take Melatonin, as I am in a brain fasting of all substances.

 

I replied to @Altostrata an hour ago, sharing my history with sleeping pills this year.  I do not intend to take sleeping pills on my own again as I'm convinced now it worsened my insomnia. 

 

No doubt, tapering my dose every four weeks before I stabilize worsened my insomnia. 

 

It is why, even if my experience with Melatonin worked well for me on that one night when I took 3mg, I want to wait until mid-January before I take Melatonin again, to give my brain a rest from anything else than my Amitriptyline 4mg updose. 

 

I'm not even taking Chamomille herbal tea or similar right now. I eat one healthy home vegan meal at noon and try to drink mostly water, and I will reduce eating carbs and sugar as much as I can. 

 

I'll go back to my bed now. 

 

I wish you a good sleep @getofflex also.  

 

Sleepan.

[getofflex]

4 hours ago, Sleepan said:

@Altostrata wrote in 2011 it is beneficial to take Melatonin every night in the smallest dose possible. Is this is still believed true?

I personally don't see any problem with taking melatonin nightly.  I do so myself, with no harm.  Melatonin is a natural substance our bodies produce to help us sleep.  How was your sleep last night? 

 

Please read in my signature box, my request not to be tagged.  Thank you.  

[Rosetta]

I’m so happy to see that you are getting more sleep!  Thinking of you, Rosetta

[Sleepan]

2 hours ago, getofflex said:

I personally don't see any problem with taking melatonin nightly.  I do so myself, with no harm.  Melatonin is a natural substance our bodies produce to help us sleep.  How was your sleep last night? 

 

Please read in my signature box, my request not to be tagged.  Thank you.  

Hi getofflex!  This is great news.  I did not sleep well.  Long night.  I'm so happy you say I can start to take Melatonin which worked for me for a wonderful 7-hour+ sleep with dreams as bonus few nights ago. 

 

So tonight, I could and will start to take one at night along with my updose 4mg, without any burden to my hypersensitive brain that I'm fasting from all other supplements?  It's wonderful news. 🌼  

 

P.S. sorry for the tagging.  I won't do it again for sure.  I'm not at ease with tagging on other social media either. 

 

Sleepan

[Sleepan]

Just now, Sleepan said:

Hi getofflex!  This is great news.  I did not sleep well.  Long night.  I'm so happy you say I can start to take Melatonin which worked for me for a wonderful 7-hour+ sleep with dreams as bonus few nights ago. 

 

So tonight, I could and will start to take one at night along with my updose 4mg, without any burden to my hypersensitive brain that I'm fasting from all other supplements?  It's wonderful news. 🌼  

 

P.S. sorry for the tagging.  I won't do it again for sure.  I'm not at ease with tagging on other social media either. 

 

Sleepan

Addendum:  I was confused about Melatonin because I found some general info not connected to people withdrawing from anti-depressants on Internet saying Melatonin should not be taken every night, because my brain will make the effort to produce it naturally.  I'm really happy I can take it and not worry about this issue during my withdrawal. 

[Sleepan]

2 hours ago, Rosetta said:

I’m so happy to see that you are getting more sleep!  Thinking of you, Rosetta

Hello Rosetta. I'm not sure your answer is directed at me, but if it is, here's some news.

 

I haven't slept since December 29. I increased my dose to 4mg on December 28, and the last time I slept well was December 29 when I took Melatonin 3mg.

 

I put my brain on a fast from all supplements including even restful herbal teas. Today I am at the bottom of the wave. It looks like I could still take Melatonin 3mg as an exception to other supplements, so I'm going to make an exception for Melatone 3mg which worked well for me.

 

I applied for Outro.com tele-medicine services in Canada offering to accompany people in two provinces, Ontario and British Columbia who want to reduce anti-depressants, under the inspiration of Mark Horowitz. I will soon have a video appointment with a nurse from Outro.com, where I can ask her to accompany me to finish reducing my Amitriptyline currently to 4mg.

 

These services will not be free and too expensive for me in the long term, but it is possible that my insurance as a retiree from the public service of Canada will reimburse me. If I am partially reimbursed, then I will be able to benefit from it.

 

I didn't know if I could trust them. However, Altostrata and Adele Framer in a private message explained to me that Outro.com was inspired by Mark Horowitz, and gave me the link for a video that shows the position of Mark Horowitz and that of Outro. com is 100% compatible with ours. I pray that my insurance can partially reimburse me. This is the video from those amazing people who inspire Outro.com:  

 

This is good news, and it is thanks to the patience of all of you here, that I may be able to achieve this reduction and bring it to a safe place where I will finally be free of this drug without long-term damages.

 

I hope that for you too, Rosetta, the news is good, and I wish you a very happy new year 2023.

[Altostrata]

You can take melatonin nightly, if 3mg works for you. There's an extended-release version also.

[Sleepan]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You can take melatonin nightly, if 3mg works for you. There's an extended-release version also.

Thank you Altostrata to give me the green light on this guilty pleasure.  I'm so happy I discovered it work for me.

 

I wish to all a wonderful extended long night with beautiful dreams to all.

[getofflex]

Here is our topic on melatonin: 

 

Melatonin for Sleep

[Sleepan]

22 hours ago, getofflex said:

Here is our topic on melatonin: 

 

Melatonin for Sleep

Melatonin did not work for me for the last two nights, except maybe a short one on the end of the previous night about me piloting a small jet plane working as an hire to pilot to bring aircrafts from one place to another.  Maybe it was not a dream at all. 

 

Should I continue to use Melatonin without sleeping benefits? The issue is that I worry all night thinking on my coming video meeting with a nurse from Outro next week.  I'm just too anxious especially during the night.  During the day, I can do necessary stuff at home and manage more my emotions.  But at night, I'm just so frustrated to not sleep and since so long.

 

Will Outro telemedecine will be able to help me as their services is to accompany someone who wish to withdraw from an anti-depressant, not to try to rescue one who crashed doing it because tapering too fast?  This is what I will discuss with the nurse from Outro next week. 

 

I received an invitation for a video message call from Outro but I have to book a date & time on a calendar staring next week.. 

I have now a camera over my PC monitor but I've not seen the info on the app they are using for this.  I sent a message to a technical assistance email address, as I'm insecure to book a date if I have not the proper app.

 

Sleepan 

 

 

 

 

[Sleepan]

4 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Melatonin did not work for me for the last two nights, except maybe a short one on the end of the previous night about me piloting a small jet plane working as an hire to pilot to bring aircrafts from one place to another.  Maybe it was not a dream at all. 

 

Should I continue to use Melatonin without sleeping benefits? The issue is that I worry all night thinking on my coming video meeting with a nurse from Outro next week.  I'm just too anxious especially during the night.  During the day, I can do necessary stuff at home and manage more my emotions.  But at night, I'm just so frustrated to not sleep and since so long.

 

Will Outro telemedecine will be able to help me as their services is to accompany someone who wish to withdraw from an anti-depressant, not to try to rescue one who crashed doing it because tapering too fast?  This is what I will discuss with the nurse from Outro next week. 

 

I received an invitation for a video message call from Outro but I have to book a date & time on a calendar staring next week.. 

I have now a camera over my PC monitor but I've not seen the info on the app they are using for this.  I sent a message to a technical assistance email address, as I'm insecure to book a date if I have not the proper app.

 

Sleepan 

 

 

 

 

My appointment is scheduled with Outro, and I received info from their Technical assistance how their Secure Video Client app will be made available to me.  Next week, I'll update you people on how generally well it went, and especially if they decide they can help me or not, as this is the goal of the first interview. 

 

Sleepan

[getofflex]

8 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Should I continue to use Melatonin without sleeping benefits? The issue is that I worry all night thinking on my coming video meeting with a nurse from Outro next week.  I'm just too anxious especially during the night.  During the day, I can do necessary stuff at home and manage more my emotions.  But at night, I'm just so frustrated to not sleep and since so long.

It sounds like you are experiencing the typical windows and waves pattern of withdrawal - we sleep well some nights, but not others.  Please do stick with the 4 mg dose for a while.  Often it takes several weeks, to even a couple of months for a reinstatement/updose to fully work.  Our brains are very complex, and it takes a very long time for them to stabilize.  I believe what you need right now, it just time, and non drug ways of coping with your anxiety.  One of the funny things about insomnia, is the more we worry about it, the worse it tends to get.  It's good to try to worry less about sleeping.  Here is some information about sleep and insomnia: 

 

On 5/25/2021 at 4:51 PM, Gridley said:

So, what do you do?  In no particular order, some of the things to try:

 

• Don't place too much significance on sleep.  Rest should be the key and when your body absolutely needs to sleep it will.  The anxiety that comes with lying awake and saying "I must sleep" is far worse than the not sleeping.  It's hard but it can be done.
• Try a journaling practice before bed -- get out the things that are on your mind and add 3 things you are grateful for from the day
• Get a sleep ritual in place so that you do the same thing day after day and start to repair your circadian rhythms
• Take a warm bath with epsom salts few hours before bedtime and add in a cup of chamomile tea
• Use lavender essential oils in a diffuser at bedtime
• Exercise early in the day so that you aren't activated near bedtime
• Get outside and get some sunlight early in the day so that your rhythms are reestablished
• Make sure you have a consistent bedtime 
• Try not to be too activated in the couple of hours before bed and, of course, no caffeine
• Add a meditation practice
• Try yoga
• Go for walks in nature

And, these are my ways of coping: 

 

1) don't get overly anxious about it.  Realize that eventually, your sleep will improve.  Insomnia won't kill you, although it can make you pretty dang miserable.  Anxiety about sleep just makes the problem worse.  I know, easier said than done. I don't always do this, but I try.  Practice acceptance.

 

2)listen to very soft relaxing music at a very low volume.  

 

3)don't worry about what time it is.  Don't look at the clock.  

 

4) I try to stay active during the first half of the day.  I take a walk (mine is one hour) after breakfast every day.  Then, as the day goes on, gradually slow down.  Several hours before bed, I only do very relaxing things, like read, or just sit and relax.  This helps to set our circadian rhythm.  Try to get outside and get some light exposure during the day, too. 

 

5) Avoid toxic, negative people.  Avoid stress when possible, although I know a lot of stressors are unavoidable.   For me, this can really help me to relax better.  

 

6) I stay away from MSG and aspartame.  These are exitotoxins which overstimulate the nervous system.  They are in a lot of our modern processed foods.  I try to eat more whole and natural, and not as many processed foods.  Also avoid processed meats with sodium nitrate, etc , such as hotdogs, ham, bacon, and sausage.  These can keep you up at night too.

 

7) avoid eating large amounts of sugar and processed carbohydrates.  This causes your blood glucose to spike up, which causes your pancreas to create insulin to control your blood sugar, which then causes your blood sugar to drop too low, and then your to create adrenaline to try to regulate your blood sugar.  Adrenaline keeps you awake because it is an activating hormone.

 

9) too much sodium (salt) can cause your blood pressure and heart rate to rise, and make it hard to sleep.

 

I would also work on non drug ways to cope with and reduce anxiety:  

 

video: Claire Weekes on Anxiety and Panic

 

Emotional Spirals

 

Acknowledge Accept Float

 

Music to Calm Anxiety

 

Breathing Technique for Anxiety

 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

 

15 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes) Female voice - getselfhelp.co.uk

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes) Male voice - getselfhelp.co.uk

 

Meditation

 

8 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Will Outro telemedecine will be able to help me as their services is to accompany someone who wish to withdraw from an anti-depressant, not to try to rescue one who crashed doing it because tapering too fast?

I don't know.  However, my experience tells me that the vast majority of health care professionals will suggest a taper that is way too fast, so please be really careful with whatever they say.  

[Sleepan]

1 hour ago, getofflex said:

It sounds like you are experiencing the typical windows and waves pattern of withdrawal - we sleep well some nights, but not others.  Please do stick with the 4 mg dose for a while.  Often it takes several weeks, to even a couple of months for a reinstatement/updose to fully work.  Our brains are very complex, and it takes a very long time for them to stabilize.  I believe what you need right now, it just time, and non drug ways of coping with your anxiety.  One of the funny things about insomnia, is the more we worry about it, the worse it tends to get.  It's good to try to worry less about sleeping.  Here is some information about sleep and insomnia: 

 

And, these are my ways of coping: 

 

1) don't get overly anxious about it.  Realize that eventually, your sleep will improve.  Insomnia won't kill you, although it can make you pretty dang miserable.  Anxiety about sleep just makes the problem worse.  I know, easier said than done. I don't always do this, but I try.  Practice acceptance.

 

2)listen to very soft relaxing music at a very low volume.  

 

3)don't worry about what time it is.  Don't look at the clock.  

 

4) I try to stay active during the first half of the day.  I take a walk (mine is one hour) after breakfast every day.  Then, as the day goes on, gradually slow down.  Several hours before bed, I only do very relaxing things, like read, or just sit and relax.  This helps to set our circadian rhythm.  Try to get outside and get some light exposure during the day, too. 

 

5) Avoid toxic, negative people.  Avoid stress when possible, although I know a lot of stressors are unavoidable.   For me, this can really help me to relax better.  

 

6) I stay away from MSG and aspartame.  These are exitotoxins which overstimulate the nervous system.  They are in a lot of our modern processed foods.  I try to eat more whole and natural, and not as many processed foods.  Also avoid processed meats with sodium nitrate, etc , such as hotdogs, ham, bacon, and sausage.  These can keep you up at night too.

 

7) avoid eating large amounts of sugar and processed carbohydrates.  This causes your blood glucose to spike up, which causes your pancreas to create insulin to control your blood sugar, which then causes your blood sugar to drop too low, and then your to create adrenaline to try to regulate your blood sugar.  Adrenaline keeps you awake because it is an activating hormone.

 

9) too much sodium (salt) can cause your blood pressure and heart rate to rise, and make it hard to sleep.

 

I would also work on non drug ways to cope with and reduce anxiety:  

 

video: Claire Weekes on Anxiety and Panic

 

Emotional Spirals

 

Acknowledge Accept Float

 

Music to Calm Anxiety

 

Breathing Technique for Anxiety

 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

 

15 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes) Female voice - getselfhelp.co.uk

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes) Male voice - getselfhelp.co.uk

 

Meditation

 

I don't know.  However, my experience tells me that the vast majority of health care professionals will suggest a taper that is way too fast, so please be really careful with whatever they say.  

I agree with you that most hc pro will suggest faster taper, and I do not intend to taper again until I stabilize i.e. I feel better and my symptoms have rescinded and I started to sleep again at least most of the time. But I think they are well intended.  Mark Horowitz who is behind this new project said he's inspired by this Forum and believed in ultra slow taper and each person is unique and must take the time needed. I will be cautious but think they are going in the right path and I hope to encourage them. 

 

And of course, I'm staying on 4mg and will not go to an higher dose.  I'm just wondering on the benefits for me to continue taking Melatonin 3mg if it is not helping me to sleep.  Maybe it is causing me more wrong than good... ?

 

I'll try it another time tonight.  Just hoping it is not causing more inflammation in my brain.

 

I will read more on all the recommendations to do for chronic insomnia.  I used to do some yoga poses and relax in these many years ago.  It could be something that could help me certainly even if I lost many years I should have kept practicing it.  My life has been unstable with moving too often and living in boxes.  It is very hard to keep good habits when your world is constantly in turmoil.

 

Thank you again a million times.  I'll read those for sure.

 

Sleepan.

[getofflex]

19 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I do not intend to taper again until I stabilize i.e. I feel better and my symptoms have rescinded and I started to sleep again at least most of the time.

Excellent plan.  Your brain and body with thank you. 

 

19 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I'm just wondering on the benefits for me to continue taking Melatonin 3mg if it is not helping me to sleep.  Maybe it is causing me more wrong than good... ?

You might try a lower dose of melatonin.  We suggest starting with 0.25 to 0.33 mg to start with, and working your way up from there.  Did you read the link I gave you recently about melatonin?  

 

 

[Sleepan]

32 minutes ago, getofflex said:

Excellent plan.  Your brain and body with thank you. 

 

You might try a lower dose of melatonin.  We suggest starting with 0.25 to 0.33 mg to start with, and working your way up from there.  Did you read the link I gave you recently about melatonin?  

 

 

I did not read everything about melatonin yet but I will.  Been quite busy.  I would lower the dose to half but I worry on the impact on my brain who do not like changes too much.  

 

I have great news that I had relaxed night, being very calm.  Not sure if there were some sleep, as I was conscious of good deal of time, but it was not restless.  Yesterday, I choose to try again Maritime Pine Bark extract by Omega Alpha Laboratories that I took last Summer when I had good sleep.  I stopped when the bottle was empty and I only re-order it and received it end of December when I hesitated to take it again, but I did yesterday, one am and 1 pm with one Melatonin 3mg, and maybe it is why I'm so much calmer, or it only that my brain is going out of the wave.  My brain feel less tight right now.  The tinnitus is less strong.  I do not have nausea either.  So maybe I'm going up the hill right now for awhile.  Again, I will not lower or taper my current Amitriptyline 4mg dose until I'm really really stabilized.  I'll read more on melatonin for sure. 

 

Thank you.

 

Sleepan

[Sleepan]

1 hour ago, getofflex said:

Excellent plan.  Your brain and body with thank you. 

 

You might try a lower dose of melatonin.  We suggest starting with 0.25 to 0.33 mg to start with, and working your way up from there.  Did you read the link I gave you recently about melatonin?  

 

 

Hi Getofflex.  I finished reading on melatonin:  I like this a lot "At some point, when your sleep cycle has been re-established, you will find yourself getting sleepy in the evening before you take your nightly melatonin. Your body is telling you you don't need it anymore, and you can stop it at a rate you feel comfortable." written by Altostrata. An edit dated January 19, 2022. 👌

[getofflex]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:02 PM, Sleepan said:

I have great news that I had relaxed night, being very calm. 

 

On 1/5/2023 at 12:02 PM, Sleepan said:

The tinnitus is less strong.  I do not have nausea either.  So maybe I'm going up the hill right now for awhile.

It sounds as if your nervous system in stabilizing - this is great!  If you keep taking good care of yourself, and holding steady on your drug dosage, you should gradually continue to improve.  Try to take it in stride if you hit a wave, and not react.  

 

I doubt that it would hurt you to reduce your melatonin, but if you feel comfortable at your 3 mg, that's OK too.  

 

 

[Sleepan]

19 hours ago, getofflex said:

 

It sounds as if your nervous system in stabilizing - this is great!  If you keep taking good care of yourself, and holding steady on your drug dosage, you should gradually continue to improve.  Try to take it in stride if you hit a wave, and not react.  

 

I doubt that it would hurt you to reduce your melatonin, but if you feel comfortable at your 3 mg, that's OK too.  

 

 

Hi getofflex.  I had a first long sleep from 12am to 7am, and a dream about my funny father-in law I was trying to help to taper a pill lol.  My symptoms are less bad.  My brain do not seem inflamed.  It is not tight inside my crane anymore. Headaches are gone. Almost no nausea. Tinnitus is still there but it bother me less.  I'm so grateful healing is still possible. 

 

Just in time for my first tele medecine meeting tomorrow.  It does not mean I do not need support. I do not feel ready to start tapering my current updose 4mg.  I want to see how good I can get in the coming weeks and months if needed. I need to know what real stabilizing means.

 

I will try grassmonkey slide tapering table when I'm ready: every week for 4 weeks and 2 weeks or more awaiting to see how it goes.

 

Sleepan

[Rosetta]

Yes, that was for you.  I have been there with the insomnia.  I understand how miserable that can be, and I sympathize with you.  The anxiety, too, of course — off the charts anxiety.  So, I want to tell you that you will heal.  
 

If I can heal, you can, too.  You will doubt this at times as the windows and waves pattern cause one to doubt.  Over and over again, you will improve and then regress.  You must take this to heart: no regression is permanent!  You will improve again, and, often, the improvement will be better over all.  

 

At times, there will be a wave that seems much worse.  Do not despair — I mean, you will despair, that’s the nature of this syndrome, but I mean that as a figure of speech — do not believe that you are consigned to feeling worse forever just because you have a bad wave that is worse that the most recent wave.  That’s normal, unfortunately, and it does not mean you are doomed.  Not at all.  In fact, it means your brain is healing!  

 

This syndrome is entirely different than any healing we are accustomed to experiencing.  It is not linear — you do not improve continuously — on the surface — with discernible improvement over improvement and on and on.  This is not like a physical injury such as a burn that feels better every day.  Rather, you are actually improving, your brain IS healing, but it will feel as if you have fallen back when a wave comes. The most important piece of advice you can take is this — a regression means healing.  The brain is adjusting, trying out different formulas to get to balance.  It seems to over correct or under correct, and we feel those “mistakes.”

 

I went from 150 mg of Zoloft to 0 in about 6-7 weeks.  I healed.  I am still healing.  That was almost 6 years ago.  Now, I still see small improvements here and there.  My life became manageable years and years ago.  I did not quite realize that when it happened.  You should have a much easier time because you are tapering.  Smaller shocks than complete cold turkey usually heal faster — if further shocks are avoided.  This means not only tapering properly, but avoiding other drugs that might affect your system negatively.  (My thread has a few posts about these pitfalls.)

 

My tactic for making it through was to distract.  I learned to play violin,  practiced piano, and I read books — kids books without too much drama.  I watched quiet TV for kids.  Tumbleleaf is very soothing.  I think it’s on Amazon Prime now.  So is Puffin Rock.  There are a few nature shows that are quiet.  Most have animals, and scenes that are a bit traumatic, so they can be jarring.

 

Distract from your symptoms, and take hot baths or showers.  I used to set my iPad up in the bathroom and watch a movie while I sat in the bath.  I would keep refilling the bath with hot water to stay warm.  You have to try to give yourself breaks from the symptoms.

 

Taking walks is really important, too.  They help your brain and body heal so much!

 

That Mark Horowitz has begun a program to help people IS the best news!!  I hope you are able to participate.

 

Take care, 

Rosetta

[getofflex]

It sounds like you are improving quite a lot!  Excellent!  It's wonderful that you got a solid 7 hours of sleep.  

 

4 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Just in time for my first tele medecine meeting tomorrow.  It does not mean I do not need support. I do not feel ready to start tapering my current updose 4mg.  I want to see how good I can get in the coming weeks and months if needed. I need to know what real stabilizing means.

Good to know.  Please be aware that they may try to tell you to change your drug dose, or go on another drug.  You have the right to decide what drugs you do and don't put in your body.  We see scads of people come in here, get on a good tapering program, but then get messed up by health care professionals again with the drugs.  

 

4 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I will try grassmonkey slide tapering table when I'm ready: every week for 4 weeks and 2 weeks or more awaiting to see how it goes.

 

This sounds like a very good plan.  You are on the right track.  Keep up the good work.  Let us know how the telehealth meeting goes.   

[Sleepan]

50 minutes ago, getofflex said:

It sounds like you are improving quite a lot!  Excellent!  It's wonderful that you got a solid 7 hours of sleep.  

 

Good to know.  Please be aware that they may try to tell you to change your drug dose, or go on another drug.  You have the right to decide what drugs you do and don't put in your body.  We see scads of people come in here, get on a good tapering program, but then get messed up by health care professionals again with the drugs.  

 

This sounds like a very good plan.  You are on the right track.  Keep up the good work.  Let us know how the telehealth meeting goes.   

Do not worry, getofflex.  I know I'm on the right track now.  I will be polite but will not be pushed.  I'll just say I'll think about it.  I will share how the meeting went. 

[Sleepan]

1 hour ago, Rosetta said:

Yes, that was for you.  I have been there with the insomnia.  I understand how miserable that can be, and I sympathize with you.  The anxiety, too, of course — off the charts anxiety.  So, I want to tell you that you will heal.  
 

If I can heal, you can, too.  You will doubt this at times as the windows and waves pattern cause one to doubt.  Over and over again, you will improve and then regress.  You must take this to heart: no regression is permanent!  You will improve again, and, often, the improvement will be better over all.  

 

At times, there will be a wave that seems much worse.  Do not despair — I mean, you will despair, that’s the nature of this syndrome, but I mean that as a figure of speech — do not believe that you are consigned to feeling worse forever just because you have a bad wave that is worse that the most recent wave.  That’s normal, unfortunately, and it does not mean you are doomed.  Not at all.  In fact, it means your brain is healing!  

 

This syndrome is entirely different than any healing we are accustomed to experiencing.  It is not linear — you do not improve continuously — on the surface — with discernible improvement over improvement and on and on.  This is not like a physical injury such as a burn that feels better every day.  Rather, you are actually improving, your brain IS healing, but it will feel as if you have fallen back when a wave comes. The most important piece of advice you can take is this — a regression means healing.  The brain is adjusting, trying out different formulas to get to balance.  It seems to over correct or under correct, and we feel those “mistakes.”

 

I went from 150 mg of Zoloft to 0 in about 6-7 weeks.  I healed.  I am still healing.  That was almost 6 years ago.  Now, I still see small improvements here and there.  My life became manageable years and years ago.  I did not quite realize that when it happened.  You should have a much easier time because you are tapering.  Smaller shocks than complete cold turkey usually heal faster — if further shocks are avoided.  This means not only tapering properly, but avoiding other drugs that might affect your system negatively.  (My thread has a few posts about these pitfalls.)

 

My tactic for making it through was to distract.  I learned to play violin,  practiced piano, and I read books — kids books without too much drama.  I watched quiet TV for kids.  Tumbleleaf is very soothing.  I think it’s on Amazon Prime now.  So is Puffin Rock.  There are a few nature shows that are quiet.  Most have animals, and scenes that are a bit traumatic, so they can be jarring.

 

Distract from your symptoms, and take hot baths or showers.  I used to set my iPad up in the bathroom and watch a movie while I sat in the bath.  I would keep refilling the bath with hot water to stay warm.  You have to try to give yourself breaks from the symptoms.

 

Taking walks is really important, too.  They help your brain and body heal so much!

 

That Mark Horowitz has begun a program to help people IS the best news!!  I hope you are able to participate.

 

Take care, 

Rosetta

Hello Rosetta.  What you wrote is very encouraging.  I like:  "a regression means healing".   I found some distraction too that take me to a world that I can forget and enjoy, and I also see that it is healing.  And I'm walking also sometimes.  The ground is icy so I have to take care and cannot walk too fast though.  I will have my telemedecine meeting tomorrow and will share soon how it went.  In this first meeting, it is to will explore if they are able to help me or not.  It may be good for me or not.  I'll see.  I'm just grateful they are now offering a tapering service that will be slow. 

 

God bless you, Rosetta.

[Rosetta]

Hi.  How are your?  Please tag me if you reply.  Thanks.  I hope you are doing ok.  Yours,

Rosetta

[Sleepan]

Hello @Rosetta  Thank you for enquiring.  I'm still on 4mg, working on stabilizing.  My sleep is improving, not perfect, but no more crazy insomnia. I still have withdrawing symptoms but they are not too acute such as headaches, blurred vision, tinnitus, etc. 

 

I introduced myself to Outro for guidance for tapering.  I had one video meeting with a nurse practitioner and I completed many questionaires.  She agreed I need help especially since I've been taking this pill for 30 years. She said I'm an high/medium risk. I could have started the counseling right away, but I asked for a delay to start their tapering program so they are keeping the door open for me to come back.  She suggested I asked my doctor for a sleep study.

 

My doctor said he would not mind that I keep taking 4mg for ever.  He's convinced I do not need sleep study to know the cause of my insomnia because I do not have symptoms to indicate it is due to something else than my tapering Amitriptyline too fast.

 

I take Maritime Pine Bark Extract capsule am & pm, as well as Melatonin 3mg before sleeping.  I yawn a lot and feel very tired thereafter, so I usually fall asleep quite fast.  I do awake at times and I'm not dreaming or feel I'm sleeping profoundly, but it's very close to the real thing. 

 

Sleepan