Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Mimi79]

In fact, I’ve never had big problems with my sleep. But I hate insomnia, so I always keep sleeping pills just in case. And as soon as I have problem to fall asleep, I take one. But it can be only once a week. The other day I don’t need them.  
When my ocd started a month ago, I used more Seroquel because it level up my anxiety (and I was afraid to have insomnia because of that). But now I’m a little bit more calm, so I don’t really need them.  It was more like a bad habit.

 

Now, I’m a little bit afraid that I have withdrawal issue with Ativan. I will stop it but I’m afraid that it will cause problems. Anyway, the only way to know is to try it.

 

I know it is different for everyone, but how much time can I expect to wait until stabilizing? Gridley says a month, but I’m not sure if it will be enough. 

 

Thanks

 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

In fact, I’ve never had big problems with my sleep. But I hate insomnia, so I always keep sleeping pills just in case. And as soon as I have problem to fall asleep, I take one. But it can be only once a week. The other day I don’t need them.  

 

You may find some helpful tips here that can help prevent those nights when sleep just doesn't come easily.

 

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

The more good sleep hygiene habits you can create, the better. Staying away from cell phones, computers, and TV in the evening; doing gentle activities like working jigsaw puzzles, listening to calming music or guided meditations; taking an epsom salt bath (which contains magnesium), can all be helpful and create the environment for a good night's sleep. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I know it is different for everyone, but how much time can I expect to wait until stabilizing? Gridley says a month, but I’m not sure if it will be enough. 

 

You're already seeing improvements, but if after a month, you still aren't there, please don't be afraid to continue holding. Many people find that holding for several months is best. Build a solid foundation before you begin your taper. 

 

Mimi, you are doing so well. I know you're struggling during the day with those intense OCD symptoms, but you're able to work and care for family, and in the evening, you're able to quiet your thoughts and drift off for a good night's sleep most nights. You're already far ahead of many people who come into this forum. 

 

And you're only on one drug. This simplicity is going to work to your favor as you taper off in the future. 

 

Please keep posting and let us know how you're doing over the next couple of weeks. 

[Mimi79]

3 hours ago, Shep said:

Mimi, you are doing so well. I know you're struggling during the day with those intense OCD symptoms, but you're able to work and care for family, and in the evening, you're able to quiet your thoughts and drift off for a good night's sleep most nights. You're already far ahead of many people who come into this forum. 

@Shep This is true. I know that having the possibility to sleep is a chance for me.
I think that I am afraid of falling into depression because of my OCD. It is more a fear than reality, I think.

Thank you again.

[Shep]

6 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I think that I am afraid of falling into depression because of my OCD. It is more a fear than reality, I think.

 

You're dealing with secondary fear, which is the "what if" fears. And that's very common during withdrawal. 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes comes highly recommended for helping people learn how to manage and cope with anxiety and second fear. 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - How To Recover From Anxiety

 

 

And this is a great short video on acceptance without adding "second fear":

 

Dr. Claire Weekes: How to accept the physical symptoms of nervous illness video (1.5 minutes)

 

And you can find loads more out there on YouTube by googling Dr. Claire Weekes. 

 

Dr.Claire Weekes - How to overcome Anxiety - (YouTube - 1 hour, 20 minutes)

 

This is a great article on "second fear":

 

The Anxiety Monster Feeds on Second Fear

 

The author quotes Dr. Weekes:

 

Quote

Dr. Weekes advises this: watch the fear go up and down. Ride it like a roller coaster. As long as you don’t prolong it by adding second fear, you’ll be reining it in within five minutes–the length of time it takes for adrenaline to fade–give or take.

 

Learning breathing techniques can also be helpful. Here are two:

 

The Breathing Space by Jon Kabat Zinn video (4 minutes)

 

4-7-8 Breathing Exercise by GoZen video (4 minutes)

 

Another way to deal with "second fear" is to settle into a mode of acceptance.

 

Acceptance

 

Sorry to throw so many links your way, but as you have the time and energy, you may want to explore these videos and articles. Dr. Weekes has helped many of us get through the worst of this. And once you learn her techniques, along with some breathing techniques, these are skills you'll take with you to use well after you taper and heal. 

[Mimi79]

Last 2-3 days, I see some improvement on my mood. Less anxiety, less apathic, less depress mood, more joyful. I have a little bit more drive to do things. 
Unfortunately, last night I had bad insomnia, but I think it was an effect of the « hour change ». 

I hope that next night will be better. 
My ocd was a little bit lessening too. Still present, but it bothers me less. 

🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

 

I hope this mean that I gain some stabilization.

 

 

[Rosetta]

Hey!  I’m so happy to hear that you have been feeling better!  Yes, you are seeing changes.  That’s a good sign.  

Rosetta

[Shep]

Excellent update, Mimi. Hope that bad night of sleep was just a one-off and last night was better. 

[Mimi79]

Some update,

I think I’m really stabilizing. I still have OCD (The theme is changing from week to week) and It bothers me a lot, but all the others symptoms seems to lessen a lot.

No more Akathisia, few small anxiety (almost caused by my OCD), but very manageable.

No depressed mood (except when my OCD get worse) and more energy. Sleep is good most of the time.

My concentration is good, even at my job. I’m able to read books without any problems.

And despite the fact that we are now in an emergency state here in Quebec (dear Corona Virus), I’m able to laugh about it!😉

 

So I will continue to hold a little bit to be more stabilized. Maybe another month. 

[Erell]

Hello Mimi !

 

Glad to read this great update !

8 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

So I will continue to hold a little bit to be more stabilized. Maybe another month. 

No need to rush, feel free to wait a couple of months : best to start a tapper with minimal symptoms

Take care !

[Mimi79]

Thank You @Erell

Not sure I will wait numerous months! I can’t wait to kick out my mirtazapine!! I know that it is a good thing to take my time, but I have to balance my urge of coming off Mirt and my wellbeing. 
 

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone

After 2-3 weeks of great improvement, since the last 2-3 days,  I'm experiencing some depressed mood and low energy. I feel full of negativity,  hopeless. Some anxiety too. Could it be a wave? I thought that I was really stabilizing, so I'm a little bit discouraged. I need some advice and maybe some encouragement. Thank you.

[Shep]

Sounds like a wave. Also, the current events in the world may be contributing to some of the depression and anxiety. 

 

That's great you've been seeing improvements for the past 2 - 3 weeks. Do as much self-care as you can to get you through this wave. The improvements will come again. 

[Hanna72]

@Mimi79 You are strong and you can do it 💪 I understand how you feel, with all that’s going on in the world, can make our recovery even harder. I tell myself when I reach a stone in my path, I will jump on over it, or kick it to the curb. As I walk further down the recovery path, that stone will be in my distance sight.

One day at a time, and be proud of how far you have come🙏

[Mimi79]

Thank you all. Of course I can’t ignore that those events are affecting me a bit, But I think this is more caused by  a wave, because I’m not really stressed by Corona virus. I won’t lose my job (because I work in health care) and I’m not afraid of catching the virus, because I have a good health. Those symptoms of low mood and anxiety rise without any reason at the beginning of my period. I know that I’m more fragile during this part of the month. I try to be gentle with me and do some self-care. I need to remember that it will pass too.

@Hanna72 How is it going with your WD? Do you have some symptoms?

[Hanna72]

@Mimi79Good to hear👍 
I am doing good, thank you for asking. Yes I have had all kinds of wd symptoms, but the one that affects me the most these days is insomnia. Trying to push through without taking anything for it. 
 

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone.

I'm definitely in a wave, I think. The last 4 days have been the worst since early March. More anxiety, nervousness and my OCD symptoms are back. So discouraging. And it makes me doubt myself. Am I doing the good thing? Will I be able to quit AD? And if so, what will I found on the other side? Will all my mental health issues go away magically? If not, what will be my options?

 

I know that doubting could be a WD symptoms itself, but it is hard to keep faith in me. I hope that when I will be drug free, I will reconnect with my old self, the one before the meds who was always positive and happy. I was not even an anxious person!  Yes, it was me before my GP put me on AD for some insomnia. I can't believe what I've become since then. 

 

I hope this wave will end soon, because it causes me some troubles, and I really want to start my tapering as soon as possible, and I need to be stable.

 

I hope for the best. I hope it will works.

 

Thank you for helping  and supporting me.

 

Anne-Marie

 

 

[Shep]

8 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

So discouraging. And it makes me doubt myself. Am I doing the good thing? Will I be able to quit AD? And if so, what will I found on the other side? Will all my mental health issues go away magically? If not, what will be my options?

 

What you're describing definitely sounds like a wave, but you may want to check out some of these threads:

 

Which "me" is the real me?

 

Creating a new self after withdrawal

 

More like these over in the finding meaning section:

 

Finding meaning

[Mimi79]

How can I be sure that it is a wave but not a problem that comes from me? I have to convince myself that it is a wave, but I doubt.

 

And is it normal that I still have waves even if I hasn't started my tapering yet? Even the small dose changes (that I did in the last months) can caused all those troubles?

 

I've seen people that CT their AD and I understand that they experience lot of troubles. But me, I've only changed my dose of few mg, not stopping it, and it could have caused me those symptoms?

 

Thank you for reply.

[Shep]

Mimi, it may help to read the first posts in these threads: 

 

How psychiatric drugs remodel your brain

 

What is happening in your brain?

 

These drugs affects so much of the body, that yes, even changes in doses can create havoc in the functioning of the nervous system. 

 

So it's really not about the drug or the amount of the changes, it's about how destabilized your nervous system has become. Some people's nervous system become so destabilized, they are hyper-sensitive to foods high in histamine, to gluten, to dairy, etc. even if they were able to eat these foods before. 

 

And if you are someone who struggled with intrusive thoughts, OCD-type symptoms, anxiety, etc. prior to these drugs, than a hyper-sensitive nervous system can make these problems much worse. So it could be a combination of having a hyper-sensitive nervous system due to withdrawal and being naturally sensitive to external events. So you'll need to work extra hard on learning non-drug ways of coping. 

 

The good news is that since you're being forced to really amp up those non-drug coping skills, by the time you do get off these drugs, you'll be really good at these skills. Many of us find ourselves much stronger after this experience and a lot of things that used to be challenging for us simply aren't because of what we learned during withdrawal. 

[Mimi79]

Thank you Shep.

I’ve never had any intrusive thoughts before this year. I don’t think I’m naturally prone to have those kind of thoughts because I’ve never had it before drug. In fact, before drug, I wasn’t anxious, wasn’t depressed at all, didn’t have any serious mental issues. Only insomnia. 
What I hope most is that when I’ll be drug free, all my mental issues (anxiety, OCD, etc) will disappear and I will return to my original state. 
But sometime I’m so afraid that it won’t be that easy...

[Mimi79]

I have a question about the brassmonkey slide method. Is it easier for the CNS to use this method instead of a classic 10% decrement  each 6 weeks? 

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mimi-- that's the main point behind the Brassmonkey Slide.  It's designed to reduce the impact of a large reduction on the body by spreading the reduction over several smaller ones. By reducing the shock to the body it makes things gentler on all of the different systems and reduces the symptoms the reduction causes, which in turn reduces the shock to the body. So it makes things easier on a person in several ways.

[Mimi79]

Thank you so much Brassmonkey. 
I’m impressed with your knowledge. Your advices are so precious to me!
I’ve considered starting my tapering process around May 1st. I’m stabilizing on my 45mg Mirtazapine since feb 21. I’ve had a huge improvement in my symptoms (anxiety and intrusives thoughts)in March, until the last 10 days, when they come back. I guess it is what you call a « wave ». 
My question is, if I understand, before starting my tapering process, I have to stabilize on my WDnormal. Does that mean that I need to have few months without ANY waves at all? If so, I guess I won’t be able to start in May. 
 

I’ve read all your info about  « windows and wave pattern » and « what it means to stabilize », but I still have some problem to know perfectly when I will be ready to start. If my WDnormal is to have some windows and wave during a month, is it ok to proceed?

 

I can’t wait to start, and each time I realize I need to wait again before beginning, I feel a little bit discouraged.
 

I’m sure that my intrusive thoughts (By far My biggest symptom) are caused by either my medication or the dose changes from the last months. I don’t know which one for sure. But in my mind, I will be free of this symptom when I will be drug free. I feel no matter how hard I try to get rid of it, it’s useless as long as I take this medication. 

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Stability and WDnormal are two different things. Stability is the an evening out of the day to day changes in symptoms to a steady level of feeling blah.  If a wave happens it resolves itself and you continue on at about the same level. Same thing for windows.  WDnormal is a moving average of how blah you feel over time. As in "I've been feeling this bad for a couple of months now, but it's not as bad as I felt last fall". That indicates an improvement in WDnromal, which in turn indicates that you are healing.

 

As long as you are not actively in a WAVE at the time, I think that starting your taper on May 1 would be fine. If you are in a bad wave I'd wait for it to resolve before starting to taper. A couple of days uptick in symptoms wouldn't count as a wave.

 

Intrusive thoughts are a total pain.  I had them for a major part of my taper.  They did eventually go away as I tapered lower.  I found that with a lot of practice they responded pretty well to AAF techniques.  I tried to learn the triggers that would set off the thoughts and then try changing the channel as soon as I recognized a trigger or the buildup that usually proceeded the thoughts getting out of hand. Once I understood that they were just thoughts and were controlled by the drugs they lost their importance and a lot of their power.

[Mimi79]

Thanks a lot.

You give me some hope!

 Even if my Intrusive thoughts are back, I’m able to fonction on a day to day basis. I have good sleep and can go to work without any issue. This is far better then few months ago when I was barely  surviving! 

Maybe I’m ignorant, but what is AAF technique? Is it similar to CBT or ACT? The only thing I’ve found on web is  Alliance of American Football! I suppose it’s not exactly the same 😊.

Thank you again for all your advices. 

 

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Not really, but Fantasy Football does have some things in common. LOL When you do google searches be sure to include survivingantidepressants.org in the search, it's the best way to find things on the site.

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try."

 

[Mimi79]

I would like to talk about withdrawal with my psychologist and I don’t know how to do it.
 

I’m afraid she won’t believe me, but I can’t continue with my therapy without talking to her about my reality. I know now that W/D affect the way I respond to the therapy. I see it. For example, when I’m in a wave or either a window, she ask me why I’m feeling worse/better (because usually it is caused by something) but I say to her that I don’t know why. In fact, I know exactly why (I’m stabilizing and going through waves and windows pattern) but I’m not able to say it to her. Few times I’ve tried (first week I discovered this forum), she was looking at me bizarrely and with a big (?) in her face! 

In contrary of my GP, I know she doesn’t like ADs and we are in sync about this. So I would like to have some tips of how introducing the subject in our next session in a way she will Take it seriously and give me credit. 
 

Thank you. 
Anne-Marie

[Shep]

9 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

In contrary of my GP, I know she doesn’t like ADs and we are in sync about this. So I would like to have some tips of how introducing the subject in our next session in a way she will Take it seriously and give me credit. 

 

You may want to show her some literature that's from psychiatry itself, such as these articles from Psychiatric Times:

 

 

Psychiatric Times - Online Communities for Drug Withdrawal: What Can We Learn?

 

Psychiatric Times: Antidepressant Withdrawal, Online Data, and a Bottom Line

 

And this article from The New York Times:

 

Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

 

From SA's Journal section:

 

Papers about prolonged antidepressant withdrawal syndrome

 

Two thoughts:

 

• If she doesn't get it, you may want to take a break from therapy until you're feeling better from withdrawal or find another therapist. 
• Ask her for specific non-drug ways of handling certain feelings, such as learning mindfulness, CBT, or whatever you feel will be most effective for you. BTW, these are things you can learn for free on the internet, but if you're more comfortable with a therapist, you may want to ask if she can work with you on these and limit the conversations on withdrawal.

Please note that therapy that deals with trauma or other difficult issues can be problematic due to having a destabilized nervous system. This is something you may want to delay until you are recovered from withdrawal. Also, not only do most therapists not understand withdrawal, many are also on these drugs themselves.This is a clip of a conversation with Dr. Loren Mosher, journalist Robert Whitaker, and I'm not sure who the psychologist is, but he gives an honest answer to the fact that many doctors and therapists are using these drugs themselves: 

 

Psychiatrische medicijnen & schizofrenie (Loren Mosher & Robert Whitaker) video (8 minutes)

 

And this is backed up by Dr. Peter Breggin's work:

 

75% of Young Docs on Psych Drugs

 

Knowing this may help you navigate the system and find someone to talk to who's right for you. But again, it's okay to put this off until you're feeling better from withdrawal. 

[Mimi79]

Thanks a lot @Shep

My psychologist isn’t prone to ADs. I don’t know in your country, but here in Canada, psychologist cannot prescribe medication. Usually, they prefer using therapy because this is their field of

expertise. 
But between not loving antidepressants and understanding the full stakes of a w/d, there’s a gap.

I’ve been On psychotherapy many times and know I realize that It was almost because I was having bad effects from my ADs or w/d. 
 

Over those years of therapy, I’ve learn numerous technique and skills to control my anxiety. I’ve done CBT, ACT, EMDR, etc...But it always comes back and now I know it was almost caused by my medication. 

 

I will try to talk to her about it, because it is a big part of me and of my recovery journey. 

 

Thanks again!
 

 

[Mimi79]

I guess I need some reassurance.

I have intrusive thoughts/ocd-like thoughts. I've never had these before in all my life and I'm forty.

I know this is probably caused by wd and dose changes. I was reassuring myself that it was not me but the meds and that when I will be drug free, all those intrusive thoughts will dissipate by themselve.

But I've read some testimonials on this site of people having the same issue and that it didn't fade away as time goes by.

I'm afraid that it will last forever! Even if it is caused by medication!

Can you tell me if it will go away?

Thank you very much.

 

[Erell]

Hello Mimi 

 

Ocd thoughts and behaviour are a  quite common symptom.

I go through them too

 

Don't worry about the future : it will come fast enough

And if one day you feel you need to work on it, you could try a cognitive behavorial therapy : it can be very helpful.

 

One thing that can help is to laugh with the situation : not always easy, but it can avoid much stress.

For example,  when I notice that I've just checked if my door was closed 10 times, I pay attention to how ridiculous it is, laugh a bit

 

Take care ❤

[Mimi79]

@Erell Thank you very much,

I'm currently doing CBT and working to manage OCD thoughts, but it comes back again and again.

It gives me some hope when I read that it is caused by W/D and that it will pass by ''itself''. Because it is not ''me'' to have that kind of thoughts.

I need some hope, I guess.

 

Thanks!

 

[Rosetta]

My intrusive thoughts have decreased immensely.  They are rare now.  You will get there! - Rosetta

[prairierose]

rosetta- may i ask what your intrusive thoughts were

[Mimi79]

@Rosetta Thank you for your encouragement! I'm so happy to read you!

I'm in a bad wave now, and of course all seems worse. I'm a little depressed too, it is not helping.

But you always have the words that make me feel better.

What I found difficult when I'm in a wave, is that I become doubtfull! I doubt about anything.

Actually, I doubt that tapering my ADs is or isn't a good idea. Maybe I need them to survive in this world?

But in the bottom of my heart, I know this is wrong. It is like a constant battle in my head. It is so exhausting!

So Rosetta, don't hesitate to send me your words of encouragement, they are helping me tremendously.

Anne-Marie

 

[Rosetta]

I glad my encouragement helps.  It makes me so angry that people who have been put in this state BY antidepressants are made to believe they need them to surivive in this “world.”  Yes, if one is dependent on ADs, definitely that person needs them to remain perfectly balanced with a brain that has been changed by them.  The drug must be reduced very slowly and gradually, but who is ever told THAT?!  However, this does not mean one is person who needed them in the first place and would have not survived without them with the proper support in her life.  That’s like saying a heroin addict needs heroin.  Of course he does!!  Can he get off of it?  Yes?  Is it comfortable to do so?  No.  At least with ADs it can be gradual, but only if the person is aware of that beforehand.  Once a person quits CT, all bets are off.  It’s beyond miserable, and dangerous.  Nevertheless, we can get through it.  One foot in front of the other, breathe, distract, breathe, distract . . . You can make it!

Rosetta