flong: Effexor XR Tapering

[Altostrata]

flong, what were your symptoms that caused you to go to the hospital?

[flong]

It started with something extremely stressful that happened suddenly, something with long-term implications that I was worrying about 24/7. I couldn't sleep unless it was maybe 45 minutes out of pure exhaustion.

A few days later came the physical symptoms. I stopped being able to eat anything and started vomiting blood...and nothing was any better for the rest of my digestive tract. Vertigo, high fever and chills, weakness, headaches, coughing, random body pains. Over a few days it got worse and worse, and I had to get my dad to come pick me up and bring me to the hospital. I was tested for bacterial and viral infections, had a chest x-ray, all kinds of blood tests and other tests. Aside from being dehydrated and very weak, there was nothing physically wrong with me.

This is apparently my reaction to extreme stress now. I have never had anything close to this kind of physical reaction to stress. I lost 22 pounds in three weeks and I feel absolutely horrible (I wasn't big to begin with). This kind of thing can't happen again. Horrible things are bound to happen, I can accept that. But leaving myself completely open for this kind of reaction seems irresponsible. For the first time I'm considering another evil anti-depressant. The bottle is sitting right here, I can't bring myself to start them though. Not until I am 100% sure I want to get into another anti-depressant mess again at least.

[Lexy]

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Hopefully this will pass quickly.

If you do decide in taking another AD do not feel as you are succumbing to the pill. Positive thinking is the only way to beat this.

[Altostrata]

It sounds to me like something is going on in your gut. I would try a non-irritating elimination diet for a while http://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/file/11270/handout_elimination_diet_patient.pdf.

[flong]

I started Wellbutrin today. 100mg once a day. I sure feel gross about it. It's not what I expected I'd have to do. But the way I handled the situation last month showed me pretty clearly that I need some kind of chemical help, at least temporarily. And the good news is, Wellbutrin can't possibly be as insane to taper down as Effexor.

Most importantly, I hope it can act as a buffer or shield against anything traumatic that may come up.

[Lexy]

Is that the lowest dose available? We have been sensitized by these Meds and now a little bit goes along way for me.

Please proceed with caution.

[mammaP]

I'm sorry that you went through such an ordeal Fflong, but I would seriously look at the food side 

of things as Alto suggested. Wellbutrin can be just as horrific to get off as Effexor.

There have been times in my taper when I have been very tempted to ask for something to help

but thankfully resisted and things have passed. You are struggling to cope with situations because

you are suffering some withdrawal. In my opinion and from what I have learned here adding 

another drug can make things worse.  Your gut is obviously struggling and If you try a simple diet

with fresh food you could improve things so that you will not have that reaction to stress again.

 

You are worrying about what might happen when faced with stressful situations, and it seems to be

that fear which is leading you to take the wellbutrin. 

 

Have a look at the topic on non drug ways to deal with emotional problems, there are lots of helpful

suggestions there. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1112-non-drug-techniques-to-cope-with-emotional-symptoms/

 

If you feel that withdrawal is causing the reaction to stress you could try a small updose of effexor and

hold for a while. 

[flong]

Things have improved overall. Wellbutrin has lifted me out of my slump, which includes not thinking about suicide all the time. I can't believe how horrible that ordeal was. I still think about it every day, but it's not killing me anymore. I have also continued to decrease the Effexor. Out of 215 time-release beads originally, I am now on 13. When Lexy (and others) first mentioned how sensitive she was to such miniscule drops I thought she must be mistaken or something...but I can see it 100% now. If I drop by one bead, in about a day and a half it starts really knocking the wind out of me. At least I'm not getting those terrible hallucinations in the mornings these days! I can't wait to be off this stuff. Once I am, I work on getting rid of Wellbutrin. Luckily I know it won't be as rough as effexor to get off, and I'm only on 200mg as well (and I won't increase it)

[Lexy]

I'm so glad to hear from you and that you are doing much better. I too had to go on a new med however it's a very small dose. Hopefully it will not be so hard to get off. It has a 66 half life as opposed to effexor's 6 hour.

Good luck on the final stretch and please keep us updated.

[Altostrata]

flong, I'm glad you're seeing progress.

 

Still, you might hold on reducing the Effexor for a few months at this point, let your nervous system consolidate regarding the drug changes before you go on the final leg of reductions.

[flong]

This is unreal. I am down to 11 time-release beads twice a day. And every time I drop I am feeling it stronger and stronger. Of course the weird side effects are almost completely gone now, which is amazing. But the WD from this medication is unbelievable.

I haven't felt doomed or depressed for NO reason since before I started this medication. But every drop I get to look forward to it now. And it's almost like I have a shield that gets shattered every time I go down in dose. It lasts almost a week, starting the second day after the drop. At this rate I have probably 14 weeks of suffering before I'm off this stuff. I feel like I am doing this fast enough, but also slow enough not to do any damage to myself. At least right now. Though if the idea is to taper off effexor painlessly, I'm not doing it slow enough.

I know people here are going to say I'm not taking my time enough, and I respect that. You're probably right. But I am SO sick of this drug, literally, I just need it out of my system asap at this point. It's basically disabled me. I have had to cut my hours of work almost in half (self employed), which is becoming worrisome. I have other concerns as well but I'm trying my best to deal with them. And of course I have many great blessings in my life too, and I am trying my best to focus on those. The good parts of my life are waiting for me like a light at the end of the tunnel.

[Altostrata]

flong, how are you doing now? Please update your signature.

 

If you're feeling the drops, you might hold for a while.

[flong]

It's been many months since I posted here. Almost 11 months ago in January I was at 22 time release beads every day. Now I am on 1 a day. It is true what people here and elsewhere have been saying, as you get further down, the ratio becomes more apparent in the degree you will feel withdrawal symptoms. Let's be real, at my current dose there is zero thereputic value of this stuff. Even at 22 beads there would have been very little if any. But that's not the problem, especially seeing as I've been on 2/3 of a dose of Wellbutrin. The problem is obviously the withdrawal symptoms. Take those away and I would really have zero problem with this drug tbh.

The last drop from 2 to 1, my system percieves it as cutting my total dose in half, and acts accordingly.

Here is what the typical routine of a drop has felt like: Drop dose, next day I usually start to feel it. Day three the headaches begin lasting about 48 hours, along with nausea, weakness and this other really weird symptom I haven't even really read about: When I look at something, like an object, I know I'm looking at it, but I can't SEE it. It's like that part of the brain isn't working properly. But again, it only lasts a day or two. Then I'm usually pretty good until day 15. Day 15 the psychological symptoms kick in, and they're nasty. Depression to start with, paranoia, horrible thoughts, and the worst are horrible memories of bad things that have happened played in a loop. This period can last for a few weeks after, but always goes away almost completely. At which point I consider another drop.

Which is where I am now, or at least getting close to. The last drop was a cut in dose by 50%. This one will be a cut by 100%. Needless to say, I am terrified.

[Altostrata]

People find a nice long hold can help their nervous systems get ready for the last drop. Why hurry at this point? Make the last step next year.

[AprilShowers]

Hi Flong, 

 

Just want to drop a hello and offer some encouragement. Venlafaxine is a tricky one and can give some extremely weird feelings in your head, even after you're completely off. I had these horrid sensations of strings being pulled through my brain. But look how far you've come, that's amazing and I hope that the final bit isn't too hard. I wish you well.  

[Lexy]

Happy New Year

How are you doing?

[flong]

Thank you so much for your replies. Just checking in as I am making the FINAL drop in Effexor before coming off of it.

Out of a total of about 430 time release beads every day, I am currently at 1 every day. Somebody I know suggested taking it every 25 hours. Which meant that yesterday I took it at 5pm, today I took it at 6pm, tomorrow will be 7pm. So that's the plan, and I'll have to make a post in a few days after I find out if there will be any reaction. I'm hoping there will be no noticeable difference, but we all know that's a dumb expectation to have after having a severe reaction to every drop!

The thing I want to ask here is the following. I am suffering from PTSD. There is no question that's what it is. Which makes sense why Welbutrin hasn't helped with those particular symptoms at all. (It did help with the underlying depression). So I am planning on coming off of it too. Which will leave me completely unmedicated and suffering from chronic major depression and PTSD which effects every second of my life, awake or asleep.

So the question I have is, does anybody have experience using Paxil here for PTSD? That is what has been recommended, and there are many resources on the internet saying the same thing. I guess the problem is, after the Effexor, which is fairly similar to Paxil, I am scared shitless of starting a new drug. Especially one that has noted withdrawl symptoms just as Effexor does. I feel like an idiot for even considering it, but I'm afraid I might not make it (for real) if I am totally unmedicated. This is a battle probably everybody on this site has had at one time or another. I just have no idea what to do...

[ChessieCat]

Hi Flong,

 

Congratulations on getting to 1 bead.  I imagine that it is a combination of being exciting and scary.

 

From what you have posted on 27 November, you are still taking Wellbutrin but I don't know dose you are currently taking.  Could you please update your signature to your current dose of all drugs?  Thanks.

 

I have just checked out the Tips for Tapering Wellbutrin and noticed the following in Post #1:

 

Bupropion tends to be energizing and often causes anxiety, agitation, nervousness, loss of appetite, and insomnia as side effects. Bupropion usually is not an appropriate treatment for withdrawal symptoms, as it can aggravate them.

 

Reading this made me wonder if what you are experiencing is actually a side effect of taking Wellbutrin.  I am assuming that you will taper Wellbutrin.  However, from what you have written in your last post I am unsure if you are thinking stopping taking the Wellbutrin at the same time as you finish taking the Effexor.

 

You say that you are definitely suffering from PTSD.  I'm sorry that this is the case.  It seems that because of this you are considering taking another medication (Paxil).  However, after having been on similar medication that has not worked, I think you would be setting yourself for another huge problem, if not immediately, but further down the track.  Do you really want to have to go back through everything you have suffered getting of Effexor?

 

People who are diagnosed with something (in your case PTSD - and please note that I am not saying that you don't suffer from it) can sometimes end up taking on that label and then can't get past it, believing that that is how they will always be.  I believe that with the right (non-medicated) help people can heal, possibly not totally, but that there can be much improvement.  However there is a huge proviso.  The person needs to start believing that they can do something about it and that they can change.       

 

Sometimes we end up fearing the fear and that can keep us in the vicious cycle.  Have you done any CBT or something similar?  I realise that with PTSD your body is on high alert, but there are things that you can learn and then practise that I feel would be a big help to you.

 

Wishing you all the best with that last little bead.  CC

[flong]

Thank you very much for your response ChessieCat. I just wanted to wait until I could respond properly.

Wellbutrin got me out of a deep DEEP and sudden depression in September 2014. Really I should have considered getting off of it before now, but I was also trying to get off of the demon Effexor too (and still am). Even as I write this, I know I will be off Wellbutrin soon too. I have never looked into it, but everything you mentioned holds true. It not only aggravates the WD symptoms from Effexor, but it magnifies some of the symptoms of PTSD as well. I need to get off this stuff too. That is clear, and your info backed that up. Thank you.

To answer another question...yes I have been on Effexor since 2001, but I realize it stopped working slowly between 2007-2009 basically. There were two things that happened. One in early 2012, and the other in September 2014. During that time I was essentially unmedicated, and it was only after in November 2014 that I even started taking the Wellbutrin, which isn't normally prescribed for PTSD for reasons you stated above. So really, since the two events which changed my brain into a PTSD brain, I haven't taken anything to balance it.

Saying that, I am more than open to other suggestions! The last resort is medication. Getting of Effexor has been one of the hardest (and longest) battles of my life so far, and I don't want to set myself up for another round with a similar medication.

Yes, I am 100% this is PTSD. However, I am absolutely convinced that my brain CAN change back to normal, and I also refuse to let it be this way forever. I'm not going to sit on my ass and let it beat me, especially as I learn more about it.

I am a participant in an online CBT trial. It's for people suffering from anxiety and depression. We'll see how it goes...I have my doubts, but I am willing to try anything that might work.

But something needs to happen soon. I'm in rough shape currently. Strong, but suffering. And I am willing to work as hard as it takes to beat it.

Aside from all of that I am planning on being off Effexor completely a month from today. We'll see. That is just a guideline. If it needs to be a bit longer then that will have to be okay. But I am working my ass off.

[Altostrata]

Congratulations on being on that last Effexor bead, flong.

 

As you know, we don't recommend drugs here for treatment of psychological problems, and if we did, it definitely would not be Paxil, probably the worst antidepressant among them all.

 

Treatment of PTSD is controversial. Drugs are by no means the only treatment. I strongly suggest you find a counselor near you who specializes in this, or do more research and see all the options out there.

[flong]

After 14.5 years, I am officially off Effexor. See my other thread for details on that.

My last micro-dose was February 21st, 2016. I am definitely not in the clear, but I think it will be okay soon. There are ups and downs...we all know it's a horrible drug, but I have patience.

So now I am starting to taper down Wellbutrin. Though I know I have to be careful, coming off of this stuff has been an absolute joke compared to the Effexor.

I started a week ago today and I am already down to 50% (from 200mg to 100mg once a day). I'm planning on staying at this dose for a week at least though, just to make sure everything is okay. Then I'll start spreading that dose out from 24 hours, 25 hours, 26 hours, etc.

The major issue at this point is not the chemicals, but the ptsd. It is new to me, and I don't wish this on my worst enemy. I can't go anywhere near certain places, can't do some of the things I used to enjoy, can't even think about certain things or it sets me off for hours, sometimes days. I am living in hell. I keep reading about Paxil, but I REALLY want to stay off this crap if at all possible.

After I make this post I'm going to read everything I can in this forum about it. Which I should have done first I guess. If anyone has any input it is always greatly appreciated.

Edited March 13, 2016 by KarenB
merged post with this thread

[flong]

On February 21st, 2016, I took my last micro-dose of Effexor. I will never touch it again.

There are definite withdrawal symptoms still present. I am hoping they clear up...of course there is that fear that this is the way I am naturally now, but every time I made a decrease in the medication it was almost identical to this, so I'm not incredibly worried about it.

Now I am beginning to come off of Wellbutrin. So far it's been a total piece of cake.

[Fresh]

Hi flong ,   we usually recommend waiting a good month or two before beginning to taper something else.

 

If you have symptoms , you won't know if it's from the wellbutrin decrease , or fallout from jumping off effexor.  

Plus , your brain deserves to be given a chance to recover from that last decrease 3 weeks ago.

 

Please consider a long hold at this point.  It would be a shame to jeopardize all the work you've put on by rushing the process now.

 

Best wishes ,  Fresh

[flong]

Hi Fresh, I just realized how important it is not to rush things today. Something happened last night that really set me backwards. I was going through old photos/videos trying to find something, and I accidentally came across something I was sure I had deleted. REALLY horrible associations. I don't have any kind of chemical safety net anymore, plus I am going through a major decrease and cessation of medication. Needless to say I am in bad shape today. It hasn't been this bad in months at least.

I am planning on staying at this dose and holding until further notice.

[Lexy]

Flong

I'm so glad you are holding your taper.

You just came off a long arduos journey. You cns needs time to rest.

I'm sorry you came across something that brought back horrible memories.

Find things that can distracting or that are soothing.

You can work on it later when you are in a better and stronger state of mind.

[flong]

Wellbutrin is very different to come off of than Effexor. When I said it seems like a "piece of cake" I was dead wrong. It seemed like it at the time. Effexor lets you know sometimes within hours of missing a dose or a decrease. Wellbutrin seems to be no problem the first few days, but after tapering way too fast, I am in big trouble. I am about to miss an important appointment because I am in terrible shape. I haven't slept for a few days, and I feel horrid all over. I read the main thread on tapering off this drug. I guess I just wait now. I am reinstating almost completely, and I guess I'll hold there for a while until I start feeling a whole lot better. I shouldn't have decreased so fast. I am an idiot. Heed my warning. This stuff is no walk in the park if you don't do it right.

[Fresh]

It sounds like you're getting protracted symptoms from stopping the effexor 4 weeks ago.

 

You might consider reinstating a few beads of effexor and see if you get any relief.  

You've gone too fast with the wellbutrin also ,  we would usually suggest updosing to the last level you felt stable on.   Your situation is complicated because of the effexor , but these are 2 options for you to consider.

[flong]

Thank you Fresh. I've gone back to my original dose of Wellbutrin. 100mg twice daily. I'm going to hold here for a bit.

As far as the effexor, I just get this gut feeling that there wouldn't be enough benefit by reinstating it at this point. I tapered steadily for over 3 and a half years, and going back on it would be a giant blow to my confidence basically. Aside from some brain fog and irritability, I'm doing surprisingly well.

However, I realize I went WAY too fast with the Wellbutrin. I'm still trying to come up with a plan for coming off of it. Preferably a plan that isn't completely insane like the one I tried last week!

Does anybody know whether Omega-3 fish oils are worth trying? I keep hearing about it and a lot of people on this forum seem to think it's a good idea, especially for SSRI/SNRI withdrawals.

[Fresh]

Ha , we specialize in plans that aren't completely insane!    

You'll know if it's helping if you get some symptom relief in the next few days.  

 

Let us know how you do.

 

See the thread on Omega 's and why we need them here  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

 

[flong]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this. Feel free to move to any place that's more appropriate!

I have a friend who has bi-polar with rapid cycling. She is on Topirimate which really helps. But she has been on one SSRI or another since she was 13 (20+ years) and can't function without a very small amount at this point. Believe me, I watched her try everything under the sun for a year and a half. She needs to be on an SSRI, at least for now. But she doesn't need much at all. 25mg Zoloft once a day is too much. Like every other drug she's ever taken, it builds up in her system and makes her physically (and sometimes mentally) sick. The capsule is full of powder. I'm trying to help her figure out the best way for her to get even 12.5mg doses she can take once every two days. Again, once a day is out of the question because it builds up in her system.

A side note, she was over-prescribed medication and had a seizure related to serotonin syndrome in October, and hasn't fully recovered. She was also on Clonazepam and Tylenol 3s for pain for a long time, and has since weaned herself off of those. I'm not sure if more info is required, but if so, please ask away.

Thanks!

[SkyBlue]

You also can't just take an SSRI once every two days. Especially with the life-threatening serotonin syndrome, It sounds to me like it would be really up to a doctor to oversee this tapering process. If a doctor prescribed once every two days, that's a different story. 

 

I'm just really concerned about the serotonin syndrome and the idea of taking an ssri every other day. 

[ChessieCat]

Hi flong,

 

It's lovely that you are trying to help your friend.  It would be better if she can join here as a member and get advice directly.

 

As SkyBlue said taking ADs on alternate days is not recommended because the brain needs the stability of getting the drug on a daily basis.  You can me a liquid from Zoloft tablets so that she could take a lower daily dose:

 

Tips for tapering off Zoloft (sertraline)

[Fresh]

Hi flong ,  even with the very best of intentions , telling your friend to drop 50% of her dose is dangerous.

She could get very sick very quickly (after taking meds. for 20 years especially) , and by then it won't be as easy as

bumping the dose up a little.

 

She would need to taper by 10% as recommended to see how she tolerates it , before considering any larger cuts.

We do not ever recommend dosing on alternate days.  If a doctor prescribed dosing once every 2 days , the doctor

doesn't have a fundamental understanding of how these drugs affect the cns.

 

As Chessie suggested , the best thing would be if she could start her own thread in Introductions.

 

bw ,  Fresh

[flong]

Just for the record, I haven't ever told her to do anything at all.

Seeing a doctor is useless except for getting a prescription, we all know that. Unless there's some mythical doctor out there who knows anything at all about the drugs they're giving us, which as far as I can tell doesn't exist. So asking a doctor is out of the question.

She can't take it every day as it builds up in her system and makes her very sick. But she probably needs some since she's been on them since about 1991. Except for a period between about 2011 and 2015.

So I'm not sure if the advice given here was to take it every day regardless of it making her incredibly sick, or not take any at all which will make her incredibly sick, but both of those options are going to cause a lot more trouble than what she has been doing.

Sorry about the confusion, that was the original question. "How do I split the 25mg tablets in half, considering they are gel capsules with powder in them."

Thank you for the link, I will see what I can find about converting it to a liquid.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Flong,

 

Instead of taking her drug on alternate days, it would be better for her to take 50% of that dose every day at the same time.  It is possible to make liquid to do this.

 

As we have already said, it would be best if your friend to start a topic of her own.  That way we will not be getting you and her confused in your topic.

 

We would be better able to assist her if we have ALL her details completely separate from yours.

[flong]

Yes, it would be better if she posted directly! I'm working on that.

Again, if she takes a drug once a day it builds up in her system and makes her incredibly ill. Some drugs are an exception, but unfortunately Zoloft is not. I think for now she's going to stick with 25mg once every two days. Obviously it's not ideal, but it's the best option apparently.

Thank you for directing me to the info on making it into a liquid though. I imagine that's going to come in handy sooner than later.