Barbarannamated: pain<-->depression...chicken<-->egg

about me · January 29, 2013

Really rough day. I'm so damn alone and scared. Not sure at this point which is the more toxic situation for me - to be near family/father/sister or in same tiny house with husband and barely speaking.

I know I'll feel better later in the day, but most mornings and afternoon are hell of emptiness. I admire Starlitegirl and others' ability to accept life like this, but it's maddening to me.

When things are actively hurtful acceptance is not always the best way. As for which situation is more toxic, I would think your husband, as there is no way you can address your concerns. At the very least you can tell your relatives you don't like what they are saying, but when someone is quietly hostile.. not so much. Just curious, when your husband is using the holier than thou sanctimonious approach, eg. not giving into the temptation to say what he really feels.. just sometimes, does he have a self-satisfied smile?

January 29, 2013

When things are actively hurtful acceptance is not always the best way. As for which situation is more toxic, I would think your husband, as there is no way you can address your concerns. At the very least you can tell your relatives you don't like what they are saying, but when someone is quietly hostile.. not so much. Just curious, when your husband is using the holier than thou sanctimonious approach, eg. not giving into the temptation to say what he really feels.. just sometimes, does he have a self-satisfied smile?

He always has a blank, nobody's home, vacant look and affect. Robotic. For a few days after my dad appeared and husband was stunned by info in will, he drew closer. It was interesting and felt good. A glimmer of hope. But since then, he's retreated further.

Father is a different kind of shut down, but the two are strikingly similar, even in physical appearance. I talk, but there is no apparent reception of what i say. No dialogue. This is long standing and i see it in husband's mother, too. All conversations feel like a monologue. I don't think it's me because i communicate with other people effectively. I can *feel* other people hearing my words. Make any sense?

I just called and chatted with a friend for a few minutes. There seemed to be 2 way communication.

Husband is at his appointment with my former psychiatrist, so I'm sure that's effecting me.

Thanks, Skyler.

January 29, 2013

Yes. Husband being at appointment with my former psychiatrist is DEFINITELY bothering me.

January 29, 2013

I have a quasi-similar situation. I'll go days without talking to anyone in person except my mom whom I live with. Our relationship, parent and child, is different from your that which your husband. We're not good about intimacy and could improve. However, we're obviously not spouses so we're never going to expect or miss certain sorts of intimacy.

I feel pretty lonely and that's what I hear from you. Alone and fearful, just like me.

Hang in there, Barb.

HUGS,

Alex

about me · January 30, 2013

Yes. Husband being at appointment with my former psychiatrist is DEFINITELY bothering me.

Barb. why is he seeing your former psychiatrist? For himself? If the psych as much as wrinkled his brow in response to a question about you it would be a breach of confidentiality.

January 30, 2013

Yes. Husband being at appointment with my former psychiatrist is DEFINITELY bothering me.

Barb. why is he seeing your former psychiatrist? For himself? If the psych as much as wrinkled his brow in response to a question about you it would be a breach of confidentiality.

Yes. He has been treated by same psychiatrist for many years.

Excellent point about confidentiality.

Thank you, Skyler.

January 30, 2013

Barb,

If only I lived 15 minutes away from you instead of 1500 miles, you'd not be lonely. But....I might become the newest pop-up doll from hell.

I hope you have a much better day tomorrow.

BIG HUG! Love you, Barb!

T

January 30, 2013

Barb,

If only I lived 15 minutes away from you instead of 1500 miles, you'd not be lonely. But....I might become the newest pop-up doll from hell.

You wouldn't have to pop up because i wouldn't let you leave!

Thanks, dear friend!

January 30, 2013

Barb I read about you every day, I know you don't know me but I sure would like to give you a hug. I found out the day my father died he wasn't my father. It truly was a Jerry Springer moment. I overheard people talking around the casket. It explained alot. He wasn't a nice guy. I dreamt last night we were all having dinner together. I imagined what you all look like. You have all become so familiar to me even though we've never met..Anyhow, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this place and the folks here. There's no other place like this..

January 30, 2013

Hi Barb

Is is possible that your husband is frightened by your condition, so much so, the he retreats?

Just throwing that out there. Even so, we need comfort.

I was reading on FB about the effects of hugs. I am a big hugger, so are my friends. I hugs my daughter and I love when she hugs me back. I hug, pet and kiss my dogs on their furry little heads.

However there is an absence in my life of steady hugging and intimacy like you.

Alex pointed this out in his post about his life too. My former spouse was not affectionate and didn't understand intimacy. Didn't have it in his home.

People can't give what they don't have I suppose.

I love seeing people hold hands, hug, embrace. It is a warm and comforting sight however absent in my life.

Alot of us can relate to your situation. Can you actually, tell your husband the truth?

"I need some tenderness. I am scared and lonely."

For now consider yourself hugged....we Italians are big huggers and kissers I was raised that way and I raised my daughter that way.

Cyber Hugs

January 30, 2013

Flower, thank you for ypur message. I'm not sure i understand about your father... you were adopted and never told?? I have had that suspicion all my life due to numerous hints including a slipup by my uncle followed by "oops! Did i let the cat out of the bag?" I was an adolescent at the time. It would explain alot, as you said.

Nikki, I've tried asking husband for more affection, hugs, and initiating myself. He tries for a few days and then back to no contact. He's a very distant person, probably on the autistic spectrum and on alot of psych drugs. He withdrew quickly from Effexor less than a year ago, so who knows what's going on in his mind. He would never admit to me if he was having w/d symptoms.

This is a marriage on drugs.

January 31, 2013

Just a note for myself: forgot to take Armour thyroid (T3/4) this morning and feel slightly less unsettled /agitated, although very tired. Possible connection?

February 1, 2013

Really rough day. I'm so damn alone and scared. Not sure at this point which is the more toxic situation for me - to be near family/father/sister or in same tiny house with husband and barely speaking.

I know I'll feel better later in the day, but most mornings and afternoon are hell of emptiness. I admire Starlitegirl and others' ability to accept life like this, but it's maddening to me.

Before acceptance for me came a lot of doing what I could to take care of myself, like insulate myself as much as possible from my mother, for example. I had to put a wall up and learn how to avoid her as much as possible. Limited contact. I learned not to pay attention to stuff going on with her because it was always drama. So it wasn't really like I just accepted it outright. I did what I could to take care of me and protect myself from the elements that caused me the most stress or upset. Then I felt less stressed and more distanced. It's easier to accept something that is not in your face.

Your situation with your husband is difficult as it is a small house and it upsets you to see him like an automoton for lack of a better word. I have some space from my mom so that helps. But I had to also see her as someone that was not going to change or adapt. So I had to do the changing and adapting and I did it by detaching myself from her because how she is can be distressing and even hurtful. The more I detached and realized she is that way and is going to stay that way and even WANTS to stay that way because it is her comfort zone, the less I cared and the less it bothered me. Now, I love her because she is my mother, and I care about her. I just have distanced myself to the point that it doesn't effect me. I care but I don't. I care about her, but I do not care about what she is doing or how she is living her life because I have no control over it.

I've never really just accepted anything. It's more like I've gone through stages where the end is acceptance. All the way there was a process of taking steps/action be it emotional or physical ones to take care of me. Then when all else was exhausted and I could do no more to take care of me, I accepted things as they are because there was nothing left to do. Same with going through WD. I do all the things I can to make the WD easier on me. Then when all that has been done, the only thing left is to just accept that it is happening, not fight it and go easy on me. Allow it to be what it is rather than want it to change or need it to change or be upset that it is not different. Honestly, I had to go through stages of grieving with all these things I've accepted. They were all losses. I mourned them. I went through the stages. Denial, anger, grief, etc. In the end, when the grieving process was over the only thing left was to let go of it and accept it, whatever it was, as is.

Acceptance didn't just happen so please don't be hard on yourself if you cannot accept. In some cases it is quicker and easier. In other cases, mainly where it's 'complicated' like family stuff for example, it comes in bits and pieces. All I can say that could best help you now is to do whatever you need to do to take care of you. With my mother, for example, I had to start seeing her as apart from me 100%. A person I did not know essentially because I had expectations that were never going to happen. I expected her and needed her to be different from who she is. I had to let go of that and start seeing her as she is, exactly as she is. That was difficult. I had a lot of emotions around that. A lot of sadness. She was never going to be the mother I needed or wanted. She was a stranger to me. I grieved that then began to just start with a clean slate of who she actually is. From there I was able to determine how little contact I preferred. Now, we get along mostly. But I have no expectations of anything. She's like a roommate. Nothing more. Though she did surprise me by how helpful she was when I was going through the worst part of the WD, and I think that was because I no longer had expectations. I expected nothing. Probably kind of how your husband seemed different during the situation with your father. You were probably not expecting it and it's almost like because of that, he surprised you in a pleasant way. But then all the expectations came back into it and you were back in that painful place again.

Sorry this is so long. I just wanted to share some details that might help you a little bit. Acceptance happens in a lot of cases at the end of the road. I've never known anyone to be able to just accept anything outright. It's a journey generally with a lot of attempts to change things and make them how you want them to be. Only after a lot of situations where you ended up in acceptance do you get a feel for it so you can go there sooner and at some point first because you can see all the ways you'll try to change things in your mind and know that you can't (when you truly can't). Then you can accept sooner. I've had a lot of experience with acceptance in my life so it's easier now, but there are still times I struggle with it.

February 5, 2013

Horrible tour bus crash about a mile from my house last night. Bunch of people killed. Choppers overhead all night and day. Usually, a tragedy like this would mobilize me no matter how bad i was feeling myself. I would do something to try to help in some small way. But i just can't rally any motivation right now. I do not like feeling this way.

February 5, 2013

Big hugs, Barb....love you my friend!

February 5, 2013

healthy hugs coming your way Barb. just to let you know we're thinking of you

February 6, 2013

Barb you can't do what you can't do for now. And I say, 'for now'.

Are you able to view your situation as temporary?

I know I sound like a broken record but there are cd's for pain, physical healing and there is alot of readings by Louise Hays for this too.

We know it won't hurt, it can only help. Go on line to purchase them.

Hugs

February 9, 2013

I'm feeling slightly better in a very vague way. The morning dread of life and not wanting to live is lifting a bit. It got extremely bad when i was on the hydrocortisone, to a scary point.

We got about 6" of snow yesterday and i went out for a short walk. It was nice.

I live down the mountain from this massive manhunt going on. I feel some compassion for the guy after reading and learning about him. My whole worldview is so different now..

February 9, 2013

I'm glad you're feeling a lil better, Barb. Lets hope it continues that direction.

I see things from a whole new perspective now too. It's so easy for people to make judgements when they have no clue what another has been through.

Hugs, love you

T

February 9, 2013

Barb,

Glad u got 6 inches of snow I know you said you enjoyed it.

Great you got out of the house and took a walk

Was just thinking of you and hope you have a good day kiddo.

Feeling anxious this morning but hopefully it will pass,

February 19, 2013

I'm continuing to feel better and trying to not analyze. Appetite is improved, mornings are better and I've gotten out most days in the past week or two. As i feel more energy, I feel more antsy and in need of something to do. I've gotten back to driving as an escape, coping mechanism. I realized I've never NOT driven for a living. I've been in outside sales since the 80s. Retail prior to that, always on the go.

I'm at about 20 months post- Pristiq after 15+ years on SS/NRIs. Will update my signature as soon as I'm on a real computer.

February 19, 2013

This is great news....

about me · February 19, 2013

That's terrific. I'm very happy for you!!

February 19, 2013

Hope things are still going well

Just thinking of you.

Judy

February 19, 2013

That's great Barb so glad to hear you are feeling better and getting out. I love driving and going on road trips

February 19, 2013

February 19, 2013

Thanks for sharing your good news, Barb.

Love you, Lady!

T

February 19, 2013

Hi Barb--hugs!

And I know it doesn't really help much with loneliness--we need actual IRL contact with humans--but you are well loved here on this forum.

February 20, 2013

Hi Barb

I've been reading your post daily just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you

Heard you might get to snow tonight hope you enjoy it I know you said you have liked it in the past

:)

February 20, 2013

Hi I am btdt. I have had worsening mri reports the latest quite recently. You seem to be way ahead of me on this topic and I am here to learn. It is tricky for me to understand it and I do tend to forget what I have learned. I am taking this in very small bits and would like to ask you how this immune response has presented itself as liver thyroid involvement?

I realize you have likely posted all this information on this site at some point and do thank you in advance for the spoon feeding I am asking for just now. If the information is here already a link would be good.

In case you have not found all there is to find on this subject a couple of links can be found here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/effexor/TSDEC0AC9GNE1P5CH#lastPost

thanks B

Hi B,

Thanks for contacting me. I'm so sorry you are going thru this, too. When I first got the MRI, I felt an odd relief, but that has since changed to regret that I know there is damage that is not treatable. It was easier to believe I was suffering from withdrawal that would resolve in time. My symptoms became very apparent when I tapered (sloppily) Pristiq over approximately 8 months. I have the perceptual disturbances badly: DP/DR, dissociation, "twilight zone" feelings and an odd inability to talk to people I know on the phone. I recently decided this is somehow related to dissociation and DP/DR. I REMEMBER people, but have a hard time connecting to emotions about them. There are several threads I started and will try to link them. A few about symptoms are: Phone anxiety, dissociating to cope, time warp, APATHY / lack of motivation, Adrenal / Addison's, In hospital for cardiac monitoring (I noticed mention of HYPOtension in the link you posted- I have HYPOeverything!).

"Bizarre" is the only way to describe my life since tapering Pristiq.

I did, however, have what was definitely my first WINDOW a few days ago! 18 months post last dose. I woke up with a completely different "awareness". My first conscious thought was "WOW! I feel light, different, lack of dread (had been easing up)". The entire day was different in a way that's hard to describe. Lack of doom. The sky had opened up a bit from the black clouds. I didnt do much during the day, but did cook dinner (unusual for me even in good times). I didn't feel like death was imminent. I have taken Vyvanse (stimulant/dopamine agonist) off and on which helps somewhat. However, on my window day, I felt no need for it to escape the doom. I did recall my dream (nothing of note) just before waking, which is unusual for me as dream recall has not returned regularly yet. I don't know if that was related in any way.

The window lasted a full day and darkness returned along with severe weather migraine the past few days.

My autoimmune condition is Polyendocrine Deficiency Syndrome 2 plus NAFLD (non alcohol fatty liver disease) and Premature ovarian failure, Hashimoto's (dx in 1996), Addison's adrenal disease, Sjogrens, Raynaud's, etc, etc.

Trying to piece together my history with symptoms and labwork, it appears I had a (possible) drug-induced lupus autoimmune reaction (Zoloft) although that was never officially diagnosed. Two doctors missed positive FANA PATTERN (antibodies) and very high CPK enzymes (muscle, cardiac) in 1997. I'm not sure if diagnosis would have benefitted me or not, in retrospect. I read a statistic recently that mortality from lupus has INCREASED significantly over the past decade despite all of the new *wonder drugs*.

It's very convoluted and I have had trouble finding anyone to offer a 2nd opinion on all of the autoimmune, endocrine conditions and the effect of psych drugs/withdrawal on them. I reacted badly to hydrocortisone (bad depression) for the AI and adrenal conditions and tapered off. It seems the morning dread slowly lightened up after that, but I'm not certain. There's been significant confusion with my labwork results and interpretation .

I'm proceeding with extreme caution. I will post links asap. I also have correspondence from one of the researchers on withdrawal that I'd be glad to share with you in a pm. He was very nice but didnt have any different suggestions for me. I recently got in touch with an Autoimmune/lupus researcher at University of Texas. I don't know if that will lead anywhere or if he knows anything about psych drug withdrawal. I am encouraged that he has only one minor tie to pharma industry (per Dollars for Docs) and appears to use very old drugs for lupus (as opposed to new $$$ biologics being used by most rheumatologists).

Hi again I have not received any pm from you and am looking forward to reading the information you were speaking of. I have just today found an old post on topix relating immunity to Effexor... I will send you a copy.

"- if effexor is seratonin and norepinephrine, and NSRI, what the physical damage is to the body. norepinephrine is adrenaline and it is well documented that consistant and constant adrenaline exposure is what causes many chronic long term diseases, such as major depressive disorder, anxiety, coronary disease, diabetes type 2, rheumatoid arthritis, fibermyalgia and so the list goes. it reacts to the body by releasing cortisol and other glucocorticoids that are the cause of many diseases, depending on how your body reacts. Further it is highly documented that the constant glucocorticoids, cortisol and others, produced by continuous adrenaline release, supresses the immune system and there are theories that this is causing chronic disease but also allowing certain cancers and autoimmune disorders to develop etc. This is really overlooked adn I think there is something to it. Not to mention the ill effects on sexual desire and possibly the permenant damage to men's sexual functioning."

http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/effexor/T46P6F1T6GTNIJTGT/p96

I do recall reading there were immune issues related to Effexor when I read the drug monograph ages ago problem with finding things in the monograph is they do not say what type of immune issue or how it may work.

I am wondering if the immune disorder affecting the white matter of your brain is indeed effexor induced autoimmunity disorder this would explain a lot of things but I can find no other connection to effexor and immunity at this time that does not mean there is not connection. It has been my experience these things take a long time to come to light and somebody to look for the connection. peace to you I hope you are well. At this point it is just an idea a thought based on what I have read from others.

February 20, 2013

oops there was another link I forgot...

Reply »|Report Abuse|Judge it!|#10Apr 22, 2008

Phil,

In the late 80s I took L-tryptophan and along with 1500 other people came down with a terrible multi-systemic, auto-immune disease. Some research (Mayo) has shown that 5HTP, St. John's Worth and some others (probably having to do with seratonin) can cause the same disease. http://www.nemsn.org

I'm just not willing to try much of anything anymore. I believe I had an allergic reaction to effexor from the start (8 years ago). I imagine it's going to take me a long time to heal, possibly because my immune-system was already compromised.

I wish I could find a doctor in my area that doesn't just believe what the drug reps tell them.

Right now I feel more comfortable trusting in myself.

What really gets me is that I wasn't suffering from depression when it was prescribed to me... I was fighting with my then husband and the doctor said it would calm me down!!! It wasn't until a few years ago that a different doc told me I could never stop taking it. No one put together that I had symptoms of a severe allergic reaction to the drug! I know it's possible that I may never fully recover and I'll need to deal with that at some point, too.

http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/effexor/TQELH95PRF1AKUS4A

It is interesting. What do you think?

February 20, 2013

Btdt,

My understanding is that there are several ways that serotonergics (and likely most psychotropics) can cause structural damage to the brain.

Serotonin has many effects on blood (platelets), acts as a vasoconstrictor and can cause microbleeds in the brain. My MRI showed White Matter Hyperintensities i(lesions) indicative of microangiopathic changes (bleeds). I suspect this is probably common in people who have been on multiple serotonergic drugs. Most people don't get MRIs, so there is no baseline of what is normal degeneration at certain ages (independent of drugs).

Here is one thread about SSRIs triggering autoimmunity / autoantibodies that attack various body parts, including the myelin sheath or glia (white matter) of nerves of body and brain.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2758-ssri-antidepressants-may-also-effect-human-immune-system/page__fromsearch__1

February 21, 2013

Hi Barb....

Are you still getting out? Snow in your neck of the woods?

I saw that it snowed in Phoenix and the Golf Tournament was cancelled. Wow.

Hugs

February 22, 2013

Barb, your inbox is full. Tried to send you a PM but it won't go.

Sparrow

February 22, 2013

Btdt,

My understanding is that there are several ways that serotonergics (and likely most psychotropics) can cause structural damage to the brain.

Serotonin has many effects on blood (platelets), acts as a vasoconstrictor and can cause microbleeds in the brain. My MRI showed White Matter Hyperintensities i(lesions) indicative of microangiopathic changes (bleeds). I suspect this is probably common in people who have been on multiple serotonergic drugs. Most people don't get MRIs, so there is no baseline of what is normal degeneration at certain ages (independent of drugs).

Here is one thread about SSRIs triggering autoimmunity / autoantibodies that attack various body parts, including the myelin sheath or glia (white matter) of nerves of body and brain.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2758-ssri-antidepressants-may-also-effect-human-immune-system/page__fromsearch__1

I had an essentially random MRI in 2004 (it was followup from a car crash) that showed the same thing. Neurologist said the changes looked like those seen in several (some relatively benign) conditions, including early MS. So he told me to forget I ever had it as I had no symptoms......except fatigue and pain. Nauseated, Meimeiquest

February 22, 2013

I had an essentially random MRI in 2004 (it was followup from a car crash) that showed the same thing. Neurologist said the changes looked like those seen in several (some relatively benign) conditions, including early MS. So he told me to forget I ever had it as I had no symptoms......except fatigue and pain. Nauseated, Meimeiquest

Meimeiquest,

That's very interesting. I was with a friend when he went to the hospital for severe head pain and elevated BP. They admitted him and did all kinds of testing, thinking MS. His MRI showed White Matter Hyperintensities also, but the neurologist didn't think they were significant. I think he said that migraines are somehow correlated with WMHs. My endocrinologist said the WMHs on my MRI were not the pattern of MS.

All this to say... I don't know if there is a *normal* amount of WMHs or degeneration at given ages. I don't know that I'd trust the treatments for MS (or any chronic, degenerative diseases) after my experience with psych drugs. I read recently that, despite all of the new drugs for lupus (biologics), the life expectancy has decreased over the past decade.

Call me skeptical. :/

Barbarannamated: pain<-->depression...chicken<-->egg

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