Christian: Reinstatement Question

[Altostrata]

If you take Ambien at 1-2 a.m., and it has a half-life of 3-4 hours, it's mostly out of your system by 6-10 a.m. Rebound would occur any time after 6 a.m.

 

When you moved 2.5mg Lexapro to the a.m., did this have any effect? Please look at the notes you've been keeping about your daily dosing and symptom pattern.

[Christian]

 

Hi Alto,

 

I have a new symptom i feel I must share. I have been getting intense headaches at night. I have headaches all the time but before bed it is worse. It is shortly after I take my Lexapro and Seroquel. This has happened the last two nights. When I wake up at 1-2 AM its still there and I take my Ambien and fall back asleep. When I wake up again between 430-5 AM its gone. Its not the usual headache. Its intense. Kind of like when I stopped the Lexapro after the one week reinstatement in December. What do you think it might be? It makes me kind of nervous about taking anything but I know that is not the solution. My other symptom is increasing bowel issues (very frequent with diarrhea 50% of the time). Sorry about the TMI there but its always a concern when one has low sodium issues.        

 

Christian, I thought you had move the Lexapro to earlier in the day????

 

If you're concerned about low sodium, you need another electrolyte test.

 

As Skyler noted, I think it is possible you are getting rebound anxiety from Ambien. The half-life is 3-4 hours, you'd get rebound when it wears off.

 

If you're taking it at 2 a.m., you'd get rebound in the mid-morning.

 

Ambien hangover may account for your morning fatigue, too.

 

Are you taking an entire 6mg Ambien or are you taking 3mg, half a 6mg Ambien tablet?

 

You must take care not to complicate your problems with health anxiety.

 

I am sure the Seroquel adds to the morning fatigue too. 

[Christian]

If you take Ambien at 1-2 a.m., and it has a half-life of 3-4 hours, it's mostly out of your system by 6-10 a.m. Rebound would occur any time after 6 a.m.

 

When you moved 2.5mg Lexapro to the a.m., did this have any effect? Please look at the notes you've been keeping about your daily dosing and symptom pattern.

I am sorry its hard for me to say. I am so tired in the AM I always figured it was the Seroquel and Ambien. Ill report back on that in a day or two. Maybe the pill is causing me to be so tired as 10-11 AM I really crash every morning. I usually take the pill at 8AM. But I will report back with a proper assessment.      

[Rain]

hi christian, how are you these days? are you feeling better now? 

[Skyler]

I am not stressed about my low sodium. Only my WD recovery. My Dr is more concerned than me as he told me yesterday I need to come off Lexapro if I have low sodium in two weeks when I get labs for it. We agreed 2.5 MG of Lexapro in the AM and 2.5 MG at bedtime. I only take 1/2 an Ambien pill (6MG) at 1-2 AM when I wake up. That will keep me asleep until 4-5 AM. Ok so the rebound anxiety starts when it wears off not later in the day?    

 

I didnt mean to not answer. Its hard to say. Ill try and explain it. When I wake up at 430-5 AM I am not in terror like many people are. Its only once I realize how exhausted and drugged I am that I get the anxiety in the AM. Ill get up and be so sleepy anxiety quickly increases from still being in this situation. The exhaustion is unbearable until noon.  Anxiety kicks in in the afternoon until the evening where I have more of a wired feeling.  I hope I answered your question. I wonder if it would be better to have no sleep without meds than 4 hours with meds.   

 

 

Working on this... check back later...

[Christian]

hi christian, how are you these days? are you feeling better now? 

Thanks for checking in Rain. I am the same.  am waiting for this reinstatement to kick in. Im having doubts that it will. Feeling more exhausted than before due to sleep issues. Constant anxiety (though not as intense), cognitive challenges with watching TV and some headaches/dizziness. How are you?    

[Skyler]

Christian..  are you taking Seroquel, or Seroquel XR? Look at your pill bottle if you are not sure...   the XR means it is released more slowly..  If you are taking the XR, it's possible you would have less of a hung over reaction to the shorter acting Seroquel.

[Christian]

Christian..  are you taking Seroquel, or Seroquel XR? Look at your pill bottle if you are not sure...   the XR means it is released more slowly..  If you are taking the XR, it's possible you would have less of a hung over reaction to the shorter acting Seroquel.

Skyler,

The bottle says quetiapine fumarate. I dont know if its this that is causing the frequent bowels and diahrrea or its the Lexapro side effects but I cant eat anything without running to the bathroom in addition to other trips. It feels my body is rejecting something I am taking. When my body is reacting like this it makes me feel like stopping all meds but I know that is dangerous. 

[Skyler]

 

Christian..  are you taking Seroquel, or Seroquel XR? Look at your pill bottle if you are not sure...   the XR means it is released more slowly..  If you are taking the XR, it's possible you would have less of a hung over reaction to the shorter acting Seroquel.

Skyler,

The bottle says quetiapine fumarate. I dont know if its this that is causing the frequent bowels and diahrrea or its the Lexapro side effects but I cant eat anything without running to the bathroom in addition to other trips. It feels my body is rejecting something I am taking. When my body is reacting like this it makes me feel like stopping all meds but I know that is dangerous. 

 

 

quetiapine fumarate is the XR.  I had a client on the XR who took the same dose you do, 25 mgs... when she switched to the shorter acting form, she had less of the type of fatigue you report.   If Ambien is contributing to the hang-over effect, it may only be a bit player.. I think Seroquel XR is the bigger offender.

 

How long have you had the loose stools?

[Christian]

I have had IBS issues in the past that was probably caused by Lexapro long time use. But this round is different. Its been going on for 3-4 days. Black, frequent, and loose. My stomach feels funny. Worse appetite than usual. Food goes right through me. Sorry to be so graphic.

 

Also, though Alto wont be pleased, I took my Lexapro dose earlier in the day to test why I have an intense headache when going to bed. The only pill I took prior to last night's bedtime headache was Seroquel. 15 minutes later intense headache. Since I have only been on Seroquel for two weeks, maybe that might be causing both?   

[Skyler]

I have had IBS issues in the past that was probably caused by Lexapro long time use. But this round is different. Its been going on for 3-4 days. Black, frequent, and loose. My stomach feels funny. Worse appetite than usual. Food goes right through me. Sorry to be so graphic.

 

Also, though Alto wont be pleased, I took my Lexapro dose earlier in the day to test why I have an intense headache when going to bed. The only pill I took prior to last night's bedtime headache was Seroquel. 15 minutes later intense headache. Since I have only been on Seroquel for two weeks, maybe that might be causing both?   

 

Good questions.. I'm going to hold off on responding about the Ambien further until this latest round is sorted out ..

 

We had a GI bug going around here in Vermont a few weeks back, I wonder if you could have same?  It's not unusual for people to mistakenly attribute symptoms from a virus to withdrawal.

 

I would be thinking of losing the Seroquel too..  let's see what Alto has to say on this.  It may be time.  

[Christian]

 

I have had IBS issues in the past that was probably caused by Lexapro long time use. But this round is different. Its been going on for 3-4 days. Black, frequent, and loose. My stomach feels funny. Worse appetite than usual. Food goes right through me. Sorry to be so graphic.

 

Also, though Alto wont be pleased, I took my Lexapro dose earlier in the day to test why I have an intense headache when going to bed. The only pill I took prior to last night's bedtime headache was Seroquel. 15 minutes later intense headache. Since I have only been on Seroquel for two weeks, maybe that might be causing both?   

 

Good questions.. I'm going to hold off on responding about the Ambien further until this latest round is sorted out ..

 

We had a GI bug going around here in Vermont a few weeks back, I wonder if you could have same?  It's not unusual for people to mistakenly attribute symptoms from a virus to withdrawal.

 

I would be thinking of losing the Seroquel too..  let's see what Alto has to say on this.  It may be time.  

 

Thanks, Skyler. Maybe the Seroquel is causing me to be more sluggish in the AM, too. Maybe since I was only on it for two weeks it wont be too difficult to taper it. I am not an expert on this but it also seems to have nasty WD effects based on what I have read on the site. Maybe worse than Ambien. I am falling asleep fairly easily with a lighter dose of Seroquel (25 MG) so maybe benedryl would do the trick once I get off these sleeping pills. Ill leave that to you folks to decide.      

[Skyler]

Will let Alto weigh in on this now..  I wonder if you can quarter your seroquel tablet...  Alto? 

 

And on the other.. you did not respond, but I'm suspicious you may have a GI bug.

[Christian]

Will let Alto weigh in on this now..  I wonder if you can quarter your seroquel tablet...  Alto? 

 

And on the other.. you did not respond, but I'm suspicious you may have a GI bug.

Possibly. But I have had stomach issues for years. This seems different. I think its med related. Online says this (and headaches) is a side effect of Seroquel and could let up. But since its early on in taking it maybe we can avoid hell for me later by losing this sooner than later. We can give it a few days to see but these headaches also concern me as its bad ones like when I had an adverse effect going up in my Lexapro dose in early December. I had a constant headache and head pressure for weeks after. Thanks, Skyler.          

[AliG]

Christian.  I think you maybe should look to a future with no meds of any kind. That could be the aim here, eventually .

 

Quote  : (  " I wonder if it would be better to have no sleep without meds than 4 hours with meds. " . )         

 

Personally , I would rather have no sleep , ( med- free). 

 

They ( meds) make most people groggy and with that " hung-over" feeling, the next day.   It's inevitable , that they have that effect. They knock you out ( drug you). Of course you're going to feel bad, when you " come to " the next day . It's " drugged " sleep , not deep R.E.M. sleep. ( not restorative ).

I would look at natural alternatives, once you taper off, as Alto & Skyler are helping you to do .

[Christian]

Christian.  I think you maybe should look to a future with no meds of any kind. That could be the aim here, eventually .

 

Quote  : (  " I wonder if it would be better to have no sleep without meds than 4 hours with meds. " . )         

 

Personally , I would rather have no sleep , ( med- free). 

 

They ( meds) make most people groggy and with that " hung-over" feeling, the next day.   It's inevitable , that they have that effect. They knock you out ( drug you). Of course you're going to feel bad, when you " come to " the next day . It's " drugged " sleep , not deep R.E.M. sleep. ( not restorative ).

I would look at natural alternatives, once you taper off, as Alto & Skyler are helping you to do .

Thanks, Alig, Keep in mind I was completely drug free as recently as November. One stupid decision to reinstate Lexapro in November triggered an adverse reaction/protracted WD that sent me into a tailspin with now sleeping pills too. I want all of this to go away trust me.   

[Altostrata]

Christian, I have to be frank. The way you report your symptoms drives me crazy.

 

By this time, you know we need to know your symptom pattern. You know we need to know when a particular symptom started.

 

I have asked you many times to keep notes on paper, yet you don't do this. Please explain why, as it makes responding to you very frustrating, and it seems there's an element of self-sabotage here.

[Christian]

Alto,

 

Please see notes latest below. These are symptoms I believe are from the meds I am taking. I rarely had a headache until the month of December when this started. Now they went from moderate to intense at bedtime after meds. Also, I always have had IBS. I am not reporting general IBS symptoms. I am reporting that something seems off from the meds I am taking. I am not someone who wimpers about their health. 

 

Anxiety-constant (less intense) 
Social interaction fear-constant- (less intense) 
Headache-off and on during the day last 3 days intense at bedtime 15 minutes after taking meds   
Internal restlessness-constant- not as intense
Obsession with my health-not as intense but still bad 
Dizziness-a little better but always there

Head pressure- not as intense last 3 days except for bedtime after meds
GI Issues- black, diarrhea and frequent lose stools last 3 days. Almost hourly. Cant keep food in.  
Insomnia- constant- 4 hours interrupted sleep. 
Poor Concentration- constant- worse cause I am even more exhausted
Tiredness/Fatigue- signifantly increased for last 3 days
Appetite-this was improved somewhat but not now due to stomach issues

Sleep pattern- bedtime 10-10:30. Fall asleep at 11-1130 pm. Wake up at 12-1230 am (vs 2:30 AM before). Take a 1/2 Ambien (6MG) and fall asleep at right away and wake up at 4-4:30 AM last 3 days. 

 

Waking pattern-4:30 AM very tired and the hangover feeling from the pills. This used to last until 11 AM-Noon.  Last 3 days all day.  

Meds 
Lexapro-5 MGS/ 2.5 MG AM and 2.5 MG at bedtime (except for last night I took 5 MG in the AM so can test cause of bedtime piercing headache)
Ambien-6 MGS/dose when I wake up at 2:30 AM

Seroquel- 25MG at bedtime 
Melatonin- 5 MGS bedtime dose 

Supplements-
Multi vitamin-morning
Magnesium- not taking it last 3 days as it can cause  diarhea
Ashwaganda-night
Fish oil- breakfast and lunch

Seriphos- after dinner and bed time

Itosinol-5 MG (reduced to from 15 MG cause I heard it causes diarrhea).  

[Christian]

Alto,

 

Please see notes latest below. These are symptoms I believe are from the meds I am taking. I rarely had a headache until the month of December when this started. Now they went from moderate to intense at bedtime after meds. Also, I always have had IBS. I am not reporting general IBS symptoms. I am reporting that something seems off from the meds I am taking. I am not someone who wimpers about their health. 

 

Anxiety-constant (less intense) 

Social interaction fear-constant- (less intense) 

Headache-off and on during the day last 3 days intense at bedtime 15 minutes after taking meds   

Internal restlessness-constant- not as intense

Obsession with my health-not as intense but still bad 

Dizziness-a little better but always there

Head pressure- not as intense last 3 days except for bedtime after meds

GI Issues- black, diarrhea and frequent lose stools last 3 days. Almost hourly. Cant keep food in.  

Insomnia- constant- 4 hours interrupted sleep. 

Poor Concentration- constant- worse cause I am even more exhausted

Tiredness/Fatigue- signifantly increased for last 3 days

Appetite-this was improved somewhat but not now due to stomach issues

 

Sleep pattern- bedtime 10-10:30. Fall asleep at 11-1130 pm. Wake up at 12-1230 am (vs 2:30 AM before). Take a 1/2 Ambien (6MG) and fall asleep at right away and wake up at 4-4:30 AM last 3 days. 

 

Waking pattern-4:30 AM very tired and the hangover feeling from the pills. This used to last until 11 AM-Noon.  Last 3 days all day.  

 

Meds 

Lexapro-5 MGS/ 2.5 MG AM and 2.5 MG at bedtime (except for last night I took 5 MG in the AM so can test cause of bedtime piercing headache)

Ambien-6 MGS/dose when I wake up at 2:30 AM

Seroquel- 25MG at bedtime 

Melatonin- 5 MGS bedtime dose 

 

Supplements-

Multi vitamin-morning

Magnesium- not taking it last 3 days as it can cause  diarhea

Ashwaganda-night

Fish oil- breakfast and lunch

Seriphos- after dinner and bed time

Itosinol-5 MG (reduced to from 15 MG cause I heard it causes diarrhea).  

The symptoms in bold are changes from my last update from last week.    

[Altostrata]

I need the TIMES of the symptoms and the TIMES you are taking the drugs. And I need this for EACH DAY OVER A SERIES OF DAYS, not a general report as above.

 

I've asked for this many times, Christian. It's a waste of time for me to ask for the same information over and over.

[Christian]

Tuesday Meds 
Lexapro-5 MGS/ 2.5 MG 8 AM and 2.5 MG at bedtime 10 PM
Ambien-6 MGS/dose when I wake up at 2:30 AM

Seroquel- 25MG at bedtime 10 PM
Melatonin- 5 MGS bedtime dose 10 PM

 

Symptoms on Wednesday

Anxiety-all day

Exhaustion and fatigue until evening

Cognitive struggles all day

Stomach issues all day

Intense headache at 10:30 PM after meds

 

 

Wednesday Meds 
Lexapro-5 MGS/ 2.5 MG AM 8 AM and 2.5 MG at bedtime 10 PM
Ambien-6 MGS/dose when I wake up at 2:30 AM

Seroquel- 25MG at bedtime 
Melatonin- 5 MGS bedtime dose 

 

Symptoms on Thursday

Anxiety- all day 

Exhaustion and fatigue all day

Cognitive struggles all day

Stomach issues all day

Intense headache at 10:30 PM after meds

 

Thursday meds

Lexapro-5 MGS at 8 AM
Ambien-6 MGS/dose when I wake up at 2:30 AM

Seroquel- 25MG at 10 PM bedtime 
Melatonin- 5 MGS 10 PM bedtime dose 

 

Friday Symptoms

Anxiety- not as bad today (maybe due to being exhausted?)

Exhaustion and fatigue all day (worse than other days)

Cognitive struggles all day

Stomach issues all day

Intense headache at 10:30 PM after meds

 

Friday Meds

Lexapro 5 MG at 8 AM

Will take rest of meds at bedtime

[Skyler]

Christian, I could work up a couple of worksheets you can fill-in to track medications using day/times, and same for symptoms using day/times (I'll use one sheet for both if it works out that way). Just something you would print out and use a pencil to fill in.. then you can upload the charts when you have symptoms you want to discuss.  Would you find something of this sort helpful, and would you use it?

[Christian]

Thank you Skyler. That is very kind of you.  

 

I have read a lot of threads to find the kind of detail Alto is looking for and I cant find anything anywhere. This form would be useful to others I would imagine. I posted something above to see if Alto finds it acceptable. 

[Skyler]

Christian, if I made a sheet that allowed you to track everything in a relatively simple format, would YOU use it...  

[Christian]

Christian, if I made a sheet that allowed you to track everything in a relatively simple format, would YOU use it...  

Yes. Thank you. 

[Skyler]

 

Christian, if I made a sheet that allowed you to track everything in a relatively simple format, would YOU use it...  

Yes. Thank you. 

 

 

Okay.. I'll upload something to you Saturday or Sunday. If you fill it out on a regular basis, it should make life much simpler for Alto, and by extension, you as well.

[Altostrata]

What I want to see for EVERY INDIVIDUAL DAY IS:

 

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in morning

- Time and description of any symptoms in the morning

 

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in afternoon

- Time and description of any symptoms in the afternoon

 

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in evening

- Time and description of any symptoms in the evening

 

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in middle of the night

- Time and description of any symptoms in the middle of the night (such as waking)

 

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, such as:

 

6 a.m. Woke and vomited

8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro

10 a.m. Had diarrhea

10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast

11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour

12:35 p.m. Ate lunch

4 p.m. Stomachache

5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro

6 p.m. Ate dinner

9:20 p.m. Headache

10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel

10:20 p.m. Headache got worse

10:30 p.m. Fell asleep

2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")

2:45 a.m. Fell asleep

4:30 a.m. Woke with headache

 

AND DO THIS FOR EVERY SINGLE DAY. A DAILY DIARY.

[Rain]

 

hi christian, how are you these days? are you feeling better now? 

Thanks for checking in Rain. I am the same.  am waiting for this reinstatement to kick in. Im having doubts that it will. Feeling more exhausted than before due to sleep issues. Constant anxiety (though not as intense), cognitive challenges with watching TV and some headaches/dizziness. How are you?    

 

 

Hi Christian, Sorry to hear that, but I think you will walk out of that in the future, because you said it was all caused by your mistakenly reinstatement. 

 

I am suffering, too, but luckily it wasn't as bad as last month, 50% bad as last month, I see some improvements: I can play with my friends and drive 150kms myself average these days as well... Last night I walked outside to digest food in stomach, however I caught cold now... The temperature changes too quick in Melbourne...

 

Just some small suggestion, I will not take any sleeping pills if I can not get to sleep, I still believe your body itself will recover. If I can not get to sleep, then just keep myself awake, lying on the bed, only concentrate the breath through nose to the lung...

 

By the way, why you taking Seroquel, this med is for bipolar, do you have any issues with that? or doctor just suggests you to take it?

 

Hope you will getting better, pray for you! 

[Ali]

Rain

 

I was put on Seroquel when I was severely depressed, and my antidepressant didn't seem to lift me. It's an antipsychotic, I believe, but often used as an adjunct to an antidepressant, for treatment resistant depression.

 

Ali

[Rain]

Rain

 

I was put on Seroquel when I was severely depressed, and my antidepressant didn't seem to lift me. It's an antipsychotic, I believe, but often used as an adjunct to an antidepressant, for treatment resistant depression.

 

Ali

Thanks Ali for your answer! I understand now.

[Ali]

yeah, not sure whether it lifts you, just zonked me. That got rid of my agitation but It diminished my functioning completely.

 

Christian

I've been following your thread. You're really going through it! sorry to see things haven't settled down just yet, but I hope with a bit more time things will calm down. Remember, there will be thousands of people who have gone through as much and survived it, and it seems as though you're getting excellent support and advice here.

 

"When you're going through hell, keep going."

 

Be kind to yourself,Ali.

[Songbird]

Seroquel works like an anti-histamine at low doses, so it is used at low doses as a sleep med.  It is used at higher doses as an anti-psychotic.  As for the "adjunct" to ADs, I think that's probably baloney invented by Pharma - I don't believe anti-psychotics fix depression, however they are used as "anxiolytics", i.e. for anxiety, because they're major tranquillisers. 

 

After my crash when I was prescribed Seroquel for sleep so I could get off zopiclone, I found it didn't really work that well for me - I had to take quite a high dose to get to sleep.  Eventually I was able to taper the zopiclone and then the Seroquel as my paroxetine updose kicked in.  Seroquel gave me muscle twitches in the leg, which reduced in frequency and severity as I tapered off, but persisted for over a year after being off completely.  I found that quite freaky.  I'd definitely never take it again.

[Rain]

So that means we'd better leave these meds away.

[Christian]

25 MGS of it isn't very effective for me. Almost pointless to take it I'm not even sleeping with it.

[Christian]

 

 

hi christian, how are you these days? are you feeling better now?

Thanks for checking in Rain. I am the same. am waiting for this reinstatement to kick in. Im having doubts that it will. Feeling more exhausted than before due to sleep issues. Constant anxiety (though not as intense), cognitive challenges with watching TV and some headaches/dizziness. How are you?

Hi Christian, Sorry to hear that, but I think you will walk out of that in the future, because you said it was all caused by your mistakenly reinstatement.

 

I am suffering, too, but luckily it wasn't as bad as last month, 50% bad as last month, I see some improvements: I can play with my friends and drive 150kms myself average these days as well... Last night I walked outside to digest food in stomach, however I caught cold now... The temperature changes too quick in Melbourne...

 

Just some small suggestion, I will not take any sleeping pills if I can not get to sleep, I still believe your body itself will recover. If I can not get to sleep, then just keep myself awake, lying on the bed, only concentrate the breath through nose to the lung...

 

By the way, why you taking Seroquel, this med is for bipolar, do you have any issues with that? or doctor just suggests you to take it?

 

Hope you will getting better, pray for you!

[Christian]

Thanks, Ali. I take only 25 MG for about two weeks. It's 50:50 wether I fall asleep on that low of a dose. It's in my mind kind of pointless to be on it with how bad it is for me. Especially if I csnt sleep with it anyways. But I csnt quit Seroquel or Ambien CT or I'll be worse.