torvikk: depression as withdrawal symptom?

[torvikk]

Do/did you have depression as wd symptom? Sometimes I'm in an extremely bad mood and very exhausted - it is in fact very similar to my original depression. It always gets better in the evening.

[scallywag]

Welcome torvikk, I replied to you in the What is withdrawal syndrome thread.

 

Welcome torvikk.

 

Many psychotropic drugs cause withdrawal; the symptoms of withdrawal are very similar to original conditions. Have you read this thread from the beginning? First post by Altostrata

 

Please start a thread in the Introductions and Updates Forum.  People are more likely to see and your question there.

 

Some questions for you to answer in your first post in your Introduction thread:

 

What drugs did you take?  How much?  When was your last one?

Did you just stop taking it or did you gradually reduce to zero? 

If you gradually reduced, how long did you take to get to zero?

 

You can write that information in your post and in a signature.  Please create a signature. When it appears below every post you make, it will help others to understand and help you.   Instructions on Making a Signature .

[Petunia]

Welcome torvikk,

 

Your post from the symptoms forum has been moved here as the start of your introduction topic. It would be great if you could write a little more about your situation as scallywag suggested, including filling in your signature.

 

Depression type feelings and fatigue can often be part of withdrawal. If you tell us more about your experience, we might be able to shed some light on what's going on, and perhaps offer some suggestions.

 

Petunia.

[torvikk]

Thank you.

 

I've been taking antidepressants for 10+ years, I don't even remember exactly, ~10 years of which was venlafaxine (velaxine 150 mg). 1 year ago I reduced the dosage to 75 mg which was fairly easy.

I've been also taking anticonvulsant for 8 months for my restless leg syndrome (RLS). This medication causes anxiety, fatigue, maybe even depression. But there is no other medication that helps rls for me.

I stopped venlafaxine altogether 3-4 weeks ago, with a gradual weaning off BEFORE that, from 75mg to zero. (in the course of 3-4 weeks). I had two reasons to stop: 1. RLS is aggravated by antidepressants 2. Want to get a clearer view abour my RLS, and 3. my girlfriend wants me to stop it.

 

In the first few days I started to feel better, having good impressions I haven't had expreienced for an enormous time, like the joy a the scent of flowers. 

But the withdrawal came in 4-5 days, getting worse, and last week I got really depressed. Now it's even worse. I want to cry all the time, I'm weak, exhausted, I'm overwhelmed with a feeling of doom. I fear constantly that this is the depression coming back and that there is no end to it. And I have the brain zaps and dizziness.

Being with my girlfriend doesn't help, it even makes things harder because I try to conceal. And it seems that my RLS is not getting better, either.

I bought a strong dosage of st. john's wort and took the first pill yesterday. Do you think it's going to help? I also take 1 mg lorazepam/day for the anxiety but it doesn't ease the depression.

 

 any other ideas??

[mammaP]

Hi Torvikk, welcome to SA.  You are most certainly suffering withdrawal from tapering effexor too fast.  Often reinstating a very tiny dose can ease the withdrawal symptoms.  Just 5 beads from a capsule could make a difference. It takes 4 days to reach a steady level in the blood and hopefully would make a difference for you. If it isn't enough it can be increased in very small amounts. Too much can make things even worse. 

When you are stable you can then taper from the small dose very slowly. 

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7562-about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-reduce-withdrawal-symptoms/

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/272-tapering-off-effexor-venlafaxine/

 

Can you tell us more about the anticonvulsant and the doses of that and lorazepam? 

It would be helpful if you can fill out your drug history and tapering in your signature, instructions can be found here..

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

I tapered effexor and have been off for 15 months now after a 3 year taper, RL was a problem for me too but it eased as the dose lowered. 

Side effects are dose related and may be much less with a very small dose. 

[MostlyAlive]

Torvikk - Did you say you decreased from 75 to 0 in 3-4 weeks?

MammaP - Did you say 5 beads?

 

I also had an easy time going from 300 to 150, then 75, then 37.5.... this was over 4 months.

Big problem when I tried to go from 37.5 to 18. Too much.

I went back up to about 30mg (30 beads) 4 days ago and hope to feel better soon.

When you get towards the lower mg you need to go MUCH slower... its a logarithmic curve.

Please let me know how you are doing as it seems we are in the same condition.

[torvikk]

Torvikk - Did you say you decreased from 75 to 0 in 3-4 weeks?

MammaP - Did you say 5 beads?

 

I also had an easy time going from 300 to 150, then 75, then 37.5.... this was over 4 months.

Big problem when I tried to go from 37.5 to 18. Too much.

I went back up to about 30mg (30 beads) 4 days ago and hope to feel better soon.

When you get towards the lower mg you need to go MUCH slower... its a logarithmic curve.

Please let me know how you are doing as it seems we are in the same condition.

Yes. I wanted to change to Brintellix, so I "crossfaded" into it but I stopped it after about a week I stopped Venlafaxine. I only took it for a few weeks.

 

Update on my state: it seems that the worst of the physical W symptoms are just beginning. I'm very-very weak.

My restless leg syndrome is getting stronger. 

Maybe the worst part is that I have to work but my brain isn't working. I can't let them know of my problem! 

And the RLS pills (Lyrica) are making things even worse. It makes me a zombie in itself.

[MostlyAlive]

You have stopped Effexor too quickly. 75 to 0 in 3-4 weeks is not gradual.

I just re-instated and I think it is helping. Please consider that.

Here's a link to the thread that goes over reinstating.  http://survivinganti...rawal-symptoms/

I hope you are ok!

[KarenB]

Hey Torvikk,

 

Can you add Lyrica into your signature?  It's an important thing for us to know about, as part of your overall situation.  One of it's side-effects is grogginess, and it will eventually need careful tapering too. 

 

MostlyAlive is right that you have tapered extremely quickly, and that it will be resulting in the increasing w/d symptoms you are experiencing.  Since you were only on Brintellix for a week or two, it would seem more likely that effexor would be the drug to reinstate, but at a lower dose than you were last on.  If you want to try this, let us know and we can figure out what dose it should be.  Did you read the link MostlyAlive provided?  It might help you decide.

 

Karen

[torvikk]

I took Effexor 150/75 mg for a very long time (see my history), tapered to zero in only a month - a great mistake. This was 2 months ago.  I've just reinstated because anxiety, fatigue and RLS is getting hellish. Do you think 12 mg is enough? Thank you

[SquirrellyGirl]

Have you already taken the 12 mg, torvik?  If so, how do you feel?

 

We usually recommend a smaller reinstatement because there is a risk of an adverse reaction to the drug once your system has been destabilized.  Sort of a test-the-waters dose.  It takes four days for a reinstatement to reach steady state in the system, and then perhaps more time for the nervous system to respond.  You can then assess whether it was enough and if more is needed.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Please update in your Intro about this latest development so that we keep your history together :-)

 

SG

[torvikk]

Have you already taken the 12 mg, torvik?  If so, how do you feel?

 

We usually recommend a smaller reinstatement because there is a risk of an adverse reaction to the drug once your system has been destabilized.  Sort of a test-the-waters dose.  It takes four days for a reinstatement to reach steady state in the system, and then perhaps more time for the nervous system to respond.  You can then assess whether it was enough and if more is needed.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Please update in your Intro about this latest development so that we keep your history together :-)

 

SG

I've already taken 4x 12mg doses: evening - morning - evening and this morning. No change yet. I'm very anxious and have minor panic attacks.

I decided to take 2x12/day to hasten the improvement (have to work and all...). But if you say there's no point I'll reduce it back to 12/day.

Thank you for your help.

[torvikk]

Some update on my state.. My reinstatement doesn't work very well. I've been 10 days on effexor again but this week-end was awful. Insomnia, anxiety, fatigue etc.

[bubble]

Hello torvikk,

 

I'm sorry to hear your weekend was so bad.

 

How were things before that? Did you notice any decrease in your symptoms, how ever slight or brief?

 

The period after reinstatement is very rocky especially if you were off a higher dose longer. But if there was any improvement I would stay the course. Waves lose their power over time like the actual waves crashing against the shore.

 

Keep us posted and I hope thus waves leaves you shortly.

[torvikk]

Hello torvikk,

 

I'm sorry to hear your weekend was so bad.

 

How were things before that? Did you notice any decrease in your symptoms, how ever slight or brief?

 

The period after reinstatement is very rocky especially if you were off a higher dose longer. But if there was any improvement I would stay the course. Waves lose their power over time like the actual waves crashing against the shore.

 

Keep us posted and I hope thus waves leaves you shortly.

Hi bubble, thank you for your reply.

It is definitely better as I don't have the panic attacks in the mornings like before - although mornings are still awful. I just can't see a consistent trend. Didn't know that reinstatement also came with waves & windows pattern. 

[bubble]

I see it from your signature that you indeed felt some relief following the reinstatement.

 

The key to successful reinstatement is holding even when symptoms are strong and not reacting to them by changing the dose. It is counterintuitive and hard but once you experience how your symptoms wane without changing the drug it feels very liberating and empowering.

 

Reading about windows and waves of stabilization helped me to have faith in the process during my stabilization period: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/82-the-windows-and-waves-pattern-of-stabilization/

 

Also bare in mind that in the course of 10 years your brain modelled around the ADs significantly and that it is very stressed now once the drug has been removed. These changes take place on a cellular and even DNA level so it takes some time for things to stabilize.

 

What our moderator Rhi wrote also helped me a lot to have patience and not to be scared out of my wits:

 

Rhi with more reasons for a slow taper and treating our nervous system gently:

 

You can't get off the drug (without major instability) faster than your brain can re-adapt itself to the absence of the drug. This involves changes in gene expression everywhere in the system (not a fast process), adjustment of populations of different receptors and cell types, et cetera. These are concrete processes and are not fast.

More to the point, they're also not very reliable and not very efficient. Healing a bone or an organ is one thing; we've had five billion years of evolution to get pretty good at that. Our brains have never before in evolution encountered anything like what these chemicals do to them. The kinds of changes in neurotransmitters that our brains know how to deal with are subtle--things like response to changes in day length, changes due to varying hormones in puberty and pregnancy and with aging, changes due to stressors in the environment, et cetera. We have never encountered ANYTHING like these extremely potent and precisely targeted chemical perturbations.

Our brains do their best to re-establish homeostasis when the drugs are introduced; this requires concrete changes in gene expression, cell populations, etc as above, which continue and change over time, because neuroplastic processes are happening in the brain all the time.

Reversing what the drugs do to them is just as complicated. It's no accident that (according to the Harm Reduction Guide by Will Hall) the single factor that best predicts the success of getting off psych meds is how long a person was on them to begin with. And that's just with a single med. Polydrugging takes the whole thing up to another level.

And when you've been on and off various meds, and on combinations of meds, there's really no telling what's happened, what kind of changes have taken place. Like Alto says (only she says it better)--our nervous systems are not infinitely pliable. Sooner or later something's gotta give.

Hence the need for caution when you start yanking stuff out and shoving stuff around. Ouch. It's your brain. You only get one.

 

This is just to show how stabilization takes time but neuroplasticity means our brains can and do heal.

[torvikk]

It's definitely working. After 3 weeks of reinstatement my anxiety has almost vanished. But I still don't sleep well and a strong tinnitus has appeared. I'm very unmotivated and tired as well. Lorazepam w/d may also be interfering.

[scallywag]

That's great news torvikk!  Continue to hold steady at the reinstatement dose to give yourself a good foundation for decreasing your doses in a 10% taper. The sleep issue and tinnitus may diminish as well over the next month or two.

[blazesboylan]

"More to the point, they're also not very reliable and not very efficient. Healing a bone or an organ is one thing; we've had five billion years of evolution to get pretty good at that. Our brains have never before in evolution encountered anything like what these chemicals do to them. The kinds of changes in neurotransmitters that our brains know how to deal with are subtle--things like response to changes in day length, changes due to varying hormones in puberty and pregnancy and with aging, changes due to stressors in the environment, et cetera. We have never encountered ANYTHING like these extremely potent and precisely targeted chemical perturbations."

 

That's very interesting. 

[Brandy]

It's definitely working. After 3 weeks of reinstatement my anxiety has almost vanished. But I still don't sleep well and a strong tinnitus has appeared. I'm very unmotivated and tired as well. Lorazepam w/d may also be interfering.

 

Could you put the specifics of your lorazepam use (dates of any changes in doses, etc.) in your signature, please? Have you been taking it since the beginning of March, and are you tapering it now? Also, are you now taking it at regular times each day, and how are you dividing your daily dose (in mgs.)?

[torvikk]

I edited my signature but lost my changes, I don't feel like edeiting it again rite now soo I dropped lorazepam to 0,300 (from 0,625) 2 weeks ago, I take only 0,300 now once daily in the evening or in the morning, as needed. 

[scallywag]

torvikk, it's better if you keep your Lorazepam dose the same.  Please, for your own sake, don't make any more changes with that. The symptoms you're having now are the result of Effexor withdrawal. You really don't want to add Lorazepam withdrawal to what you're currently experiencing.

 

Brandy -- thank you for digging deeper with your questions.

[torvikk]

torvikk, it's better if you keep your Lorazepam dose the same.  Please, for your own sake, don't make any more changes with that. The symptoms you're having now are the result of Effexor withdrawal. You really don't want to add Lorazepam withdrawal to what you're currently experiencing.

 

Brandy -- thank you for digging deeper with your questions.

OK, thanks.

[Altostrata]

@torvikk, how are you?