natlondon: introduction

[JLex1981]

Hi Gridley,

Yeah, I don’t know what happened but I dropped hard after that switch. Guess I’ll never know if it was the switch to liquid or the 20% drop. I’m holding @ 5MG for a good while to say the least. Thanks for the advice and maybe in the future I was thinking to make my own liquid or maybe a capsule maker / compounding pharmacy, but I haven’t really decided if I’ll continue with a taper. I know there are some studies coming down the pike about SSRI withdrawal. Kind of hoping we’ll get better info about it in the future . 

[Gridley]

Thanks for the report, JLex.  Good idea to just hold for a while. 

[natlondon]

22 hours ago, Madeleine said:

Glad to be of help Natalie.  So many people follow doctor's orders, as one would normally think would be prudent to do, but, unfortunately, the vast majority of doctors do not know how to help people taper properly nor about withdrawal.   However, finally, a few doctors are learning.  Here's a report on CBC radio, the Canadian equivalent of the BBC on this topic:

 I think not everything in this report is 100% sound, e.g. there is an interview with a woman who tapered by skipping days/doses incrementally -- and this might make people conclude that that is a good way to taper, when that type of fluctuation is disrupting to the brain -- and there is no thorough explanation in the report of the 10% or slow gradual tapering.

But, generally this report is going in the right direction as conclusion/thesis is that tapering off ADs is often fraught with difficulties, that doctors don't really know how to direct people in tapering properly, that online groups are helpful and are offering important support to people who are tapering, and that not enough studies have done on withdrawal/tapering, that drug companies have no interest in that aspect of research. 

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/whitecoat/i-was-sobbing-uncontrollably-patients-say-antidepressants-difficult-to-quit-1.4658787

Thank you so, so much for sharing this with me Madeleine. Makes me feel at least I know what has actually been going on for me. Can’t currently get my head around how these drugs are allowed to be so easily prescribed when the aftermath trying to stop taking them is literally ripping people apart. So much to learn. Do let me know if you come across any further information. Thank you so much for this one. 

 

Warmest wishes

 

Natalie 

[natlondon]

21 hours ago, JLex1981 said:

Hi Natalie,

 

Yes, I know that feeling.. My wife had booked that trip well in advance and everything was paid for so I had to suck it up and go... We'd be out to dinner and hiking and so forth and for the most part I think it did take my mind off things. As long as I was active I was able to keep going... It was rough though and I had moments that were not too nice.... but they passed. 

 

I would take things at your own pace though and don't feel like you have to do anything just yet... This takes so much out of a person... physically and mentally.... I know just from my weight loss and lack of sleep that my body has taken a hit... Over the next few months I am trying to nourish it as much as I can. 

 

I felt that way about numbing my emotions with high dosages of SSRI's too... I felt I had a wider range of emotions the lower I got... that is until I hit withdrawal... I knew it would suck at that point and take a while to get back to baseline as I'd been through this before... unfortunately these things do take time.... but life continues and you'd be surprised how much life you can live even while going through this.... and then little by little you start to feel better. 

 

What are you physical symptoms like ? Are you eating? My appetite was one of the first things to return after reinstatement. 

 

John . 

 

Hi John,

 

You did well getting through the trip - I know how hard I find it to get through days out let alone a full trip, you really did well, especially with it being an active trip. I often think I can't let this current situation I am in prevent me living my life but the navigation can be so tricky knowing what is best to do. 'This too shall pass' - am living with this phrase currently as a lifeline. 

 

Yeah I definitely am taking things at my own pace. It is so bizarre to be in this position. I have always been a doer and out there and making things happen and achieving things and 'taking the bull by the horns' - this experience is so new to me having to surrender and be so gentle with myself. It is so good to be able to connect with others who understand - those words are precisely it: it does take so much out of a person physically and mentally and I think others close to me (understandably) don't know what it is actually like. 

 

I hope the next few months go well with getting good nourishment back into you. I know how hard it can be to eat. I have had the zero appetite waves / weeks and then times when I eat a meal and afterwards my whole body literally goes faint. I assume it is just an overload on the nervous system. Things seem to be a better now as I just made myself eat the meals and usually wouldn't have anything planned after a larger meal so I could just lie down or rest if it was heavy going on my system. I also found smoothies were really good for getting good nourishment and energy back into the body without too much work for the body or if the appetite had gone. I have also had miraculous results with using lavender oil in a diffuser which I use before I go to bed and keep it running until it switches itself off / runs out. 

 

Totally relate to you about the emotions coming back and coming back in intensity and breath the lower I got with my doses. I don't think I have cried so much in my life over such a short amount of time. Yeah I do remain in faith and hope that things will get better and it seems time and patience is really a massive part of the solution. 

 

My physical symptoms were pretty bad and they would keep changing. I didn't have any whilst I was tapering but when I came off Prozac completely it was a turmoil. It seemed to be like a week or two of nausea, then I would have complete body weakness, I then had two episodes were my eyes were burning (apparently Prozac affects eye pressure so I assume coming off and coming off quickly my eye pressure tried to adjust?). I had a lot of bad headaches. And then pretty bad anxiety like I have never experienced before. It felt so often like really bad flu. And the symptoms would seem to keen repeating themselves like going through a circular kind of system. And when I was suffering with a physical withdrawal symptom I wouldn't have any mental or emotional or psychological ones. - and when I had a bad psychological / emotional wave I wouldn't be experiencing any physical symptoms. I understand now that is how the nervous system has to heal - doing one part at a time and rotating around. 

 

Just taking one day at a time.

 

We have to keep the faith !

 

Natalie

 

[JLex1981]

Hi Natalie,

You will do well with this and look back with astonishment at what you got through. Once it gets better you will have the opportunity for reflection and I really do think it changes a person. I remember a phrase from Lance Armstrong’s book when he is sitting in the hospital in dire straights over chemo and the man looks at him who was next to him and says “you don’t know it right now, but we’re the lucky ones.” 

Adversity has a way of changing a person and allowing a different side of them to develop. I believe once everyone stabilizes that there is an appreciation for life that could have never been there otherwise. 

Day by day and little by little until you realize “hey, I feel better”. This also helps alcoholics and people with addiction and I think it comes back to being present and taking life as it goes. In going through withdrawal I would allow myself to feel those bad feelings and they would pass. If they got real bad , I would go out for a walk or run to get the angst out of me. This always helped. 

“This too shall pass.” 

Such a profound statement. There is nothing that exists now or in the future which will not pass. Sounds very Buddhist I know, but you cannot deny it’s truth. Even are own existence will pass for each and everyone of us (with living a full and happy life of course!) 

but this brings back to the original point of nothing is permanent. Not withdrawal, not anything. So as long as we do our best things will and do change day by day. 

“Time heals all wounds.”

Another great saying and for withdrawal I’m afraid holds the most truth. Whatever your decision is (reinstatement/hold) time will ultimately be the ultimate healer. Patience is a virtue and such a hard thing to have when suffering. But, suffering doesn’t last forever, it can and must come to an end sooner or later. 

When I was feeling really bad I thought of people going through Chemo and what it gets like for them, such a hard thing to go through and unfortunately some do not make it out. Now, I’m not saying withdrawal is the same but for me it helped because I tend to catasrophize things especially when feeling really emotional. Such as “ I can’t live like this...etc... etc...Then I thing “No, you can.. people get through really, really tough things in life and come out the other side.”

When you go through withdrawal your thoughts get so dark, but it helps if you remind yourself that your not in a great place to be taking your thoughts seriously. When you get better you’ll look back at those thoughts and see how overblown they were. 

Wish you quick healing and little steps in the right direction. 🙂 

 

-John. 

[Fightingawar]

22 hours ago, JLex1981 said:

Hi Natalie,

You will do well with this and look back with astonishment at what you got through. Once it gets better you will have the opportunity for reflection and I really do think it changes a person. I remember a phrase from Lance Armstrong’s book when he is sitting in the hospital in dire straights over chemo and the man looks at him who was next to him and says “you don’t know it right now, but we’re the lucky ones.” 

Adversity has a way of changing a person and allowing a different side of them to develop. I believe once everyone stabilizes that there is an appreciation for life that could have never been there otherwise. 

Day by day and little by little until you realize “hey, I feel better”. This also helps alcoholics and people with addiction and I think it comes back to being present and taking life as it goes. In going through withdrawal I would allow myself to feel those bad feelings and they would pass. If they got real bad , I would go out for a walk or run to get the angst out of me. This always helped. 

“This too shall pass.” 

Such a profound statement. There is nothing that exists now or in the future which will not pass. Sounds very Buddhist I know, but you cannot deny it’s truth. Even are own existence will pass for each and everyone of us (with living a full and happy life of course!) 

but this brings back to the original point of nothing is permanent. Not withdrawal, not anything. So as long as we do our best things will and do change day by day. 

“Time heals all wounds.”

Another great saying and for withdrawal I’m afraid holds the most truth. Whatever your decision is (reinstatement/hold) time will ultimately be the ultimate healer. Patience is a virtue and such a hard thing to have when suffering. But, suffering doesn’t last forever, it can and must come to an end sooner or later. 

When I was feeling really bad I thought of people going through Chemo and what it gets like for them, such a hard thing to go through and unfortunately some do not make it out. Now, I’m not saying withdrawal is the same but for me it helped because I tend to catasrophize things especially when feeling really emotional. Such as “ I can’t live like this...etc... etc...Then I thing “No, you can.. people get through really, really tough things in life and come out the other side.”

When you go through withdrawal your thoughts get so dark, but it helps if you remind yourself that your not in a great place to be taking your thoughts seriously. When you get better you’ll look back at those thoughts and see how overblown they were. 

Wish you quick healing and little steps in the right direction. 🙂 

 

-John. 

Wow that really hit me, it gives me hope when a lot of times I don’t have any. I am struggling but I know I will make it through this 3 months has felt like an eternity to me and I did think by now I would be feeling some better but I’m still fighting I’m not going to give up. The anxiety, not eating, and aching are the worst of it for me right now but I’m praying that gets better soon. @natlondon you are in my prayers I hope you heal soon ❤️

[natlondon]

19 minutes ago, Fightingawar said:

Wow that really hit me, it gives me hope when a lot of times I don’t have any. I am struggling but I know I will make it through this 3 months has felt like an eternity to me and I did think by now I would be feeling some better but I’m still fighting I’m not going to give up. The anxiety, not eating, and aching are the worst of it for me right now but I’m praying that gets better soon. @natlondon you are in my prayers I hope you heal soon ❤️

 

Thank you so much for the messages

22 hours ago, JLex1981 said:

Hi Natalie,

You will do well with this and look back with astonishment at what you got through. Once it gets better you will have the opportunity for reflection and I really do think it changes a person. I remember a phrase from Lance Armstrong’s book when he is sitting in the hospital in dire straights over chemo and the man looks at him who was next to him and says “you don’t know it right now, but we’re the lucky ones.” 

Adversity has a way of changing a person and allowing a different side of them to develop. I believe once everyone stabilizes that there is an appreciation for life that could have never been there otherwise. 

Day by day and little by little until you realize “hey, I feel better”. This also helps alcoholics and people with addiction and I think it comes back to being present and taking life as it goes. In going through withdrawal I would allow myself to feel those bad feelings and they would pass. If they got real bad , I would go out for a walk or run to get the angst out of me. This always helped. 

“This too shall pass.” 

Such a profound statement. There is nothing that exists now or in the future which will not pass. Sounds very Buddhist I know, but you cannot deny it’s truth. Even are own existence will pass for each and everyone of us (with living a full and happy life of course!) 

but this brings back to the original point of nothing is permanent. Not withdrawal, not anything. So as long as we do our best things will and do change day by day. 

“Time heals all wounds.”

Another great saying and for withdrawal I’m afraid holds the most truth. Whatever your decision is (reinstatement/hold) time will ultimately be the ultimate healer. Patience is a virtue and such a hard thing to have when suffering. But, suffering doesn’t last forever, it can and must come to an end sooner or later. 

When I was feeling really bad I thought of people going through Chemo and what it gets like for them, such a hard thing to go through and unfortunately some do not make it out. Now, I’m not saying withdrawal is the same but for me it helped because I tend to catasrophize things especially when feeling really emotional. Such as “ I can’t live like this...etc... etc...Then I thing “No, you can.. people get through really, really tough things in life and come out the other side.”

When you go through withdrawal your thoughts get so dark, but it helps if you remind yourself that your not in a great place to be taking your thoughts seriously. When you get better you’ll look back at those thoughts and see how overblown they were. 

Wish you quick healing and little steps in the right direction. 🙂 

 

-John. 

 

[natlondon]

22 hours ago, JLex1981 said:

Hi Natalie,

You will do well with this and look back with astonishment at what you got through. Once it gets better you will have the opportunity for reflection and I really do think it changes a person. I remember a phrase from Lance Armstrong’s book when he is sitting in the hospital in dire straights over chemo and the man looks at him who was next to him and says “you don’t know it right now, but we’re the lucky ones.” 

Adversity has a way of changing a person and allowing a different side of them to develop. I believe once everyone stabilizes that there is an appreciation for life that could have never been there otherwise. 

Day by day and little by little until you realize “hey, I feel better”. This also helps alcoholics and people with addiction and I think it comes back to being present and taking life as it goes. In going through withdrawal I would allow myself to feel those bad feelings and they would pass. If they got real bad , I would go out for a walk or run to get the angst out of me. This always helped. 

“This too shall pass.” 

Such a profound statement. There is nothing that exists now or in the future which will not pass. Sounds very Buddhist I know, but you cannot deny it’s truth. Even are own existence will pass for each and everyone of us (with living a full and happy life of course!) 

but this brings back to the original point of nothing is permanent. Not withdrawal, not anything. So as long as we do our best things will and do change day by day. 

“Time heals all wounds.”

Another great saying and for withdrawal I’m afraid holds the most truth. Whatever your decision is (reinstatement/hold) time will ultimately be the ultimate healer. Patience is a virtue and such a hard thing to have when suffering. But, suffering doesn’t last forever, it can and must come to an end sooner or later. 

When I was feeling really bad I thought of people going through Chemo and what it gets like for them, such a hard thing to go through and unfortunately some do not make it out. Now, I’m not saying withdrawal is the same but for me it helped because I tend to catasrophize things especially when feeling really emotional. Such as “ I can’t live like this...etc... etc...Then I thing “No, you can.. people get through really, really tough things in life and come out the other side.”

When you go through withdrawal your thoughts get so dark, but it helps if you remind yourself that your not in a great place to be taking your thoughts seriously. When you get better you’ll look back at those thoughts and see how overblown they were. 

Wish you quick healing and little steps in the right direction. 🙂 

 

-John. 

 

[natlondon]

21 minutes ago, Fightingawar said:

Wow that really hit me, it gives me hope when a lot of times I don’t have any. I am struggling but I know I will make it through this 3 months has felt like an eternity to me and I did think by now I would be feeling some better but I’m still fighting I’m not going to give up. The anxiety, not eating, and aching are the worst of it for me right now but I’m praying that gets better soon. @natlondon you are in my prayers I hope you heal soon ❤️

 

Thank you so much for the posts John and Fightingawar. Your words are really keeping me going right now whilst I try and navigate through this.

 

Things have been pretty bad for me today with a lot of darkness and crying I just keep telling myself to keep going no matter what as scary as it feels. I don't know what the sensible thing to do is though given how bad things have been today. I am on day 6 re-instating 2mg Prozac. Part of me thinks I need to increase as things are bad. I just don't know what the right thing is to do. Like if the depression / suicidal thoughts and feelings are from withdrawals from the original 60mg I was taking or if they are from re-instating and the body getting used the 2mg Prozac again or if the Prozac was medicating depression. 

 

Literally am praying to get through right now with 'this too shall pass' as the mantra. Thank you so much for encouragement and support. Any ideas as to if I should hold at 2mg or increase to something higher to try and get some relief - please let me know. 

 

Love for all who have to go through this,

 

Natalie 

[Gridley]

I would hold for a few more days at 2mg.  Remember, you switched to liquid and that can be a big change, so you can't really base anything on how you're feeling now.  Did you do the crossover to liquid or all at once?  

 

More is not always better in reinstating.  

 

 

[Fightingawar]

47 minutes ago, natlondon said:

 

Thank you so much for the posts John and Fightingawar. Your words are really keeping me going right now whilst I try and navigate through this.

 

Things have been pretty bad for me today with a lot of darkness and crying I just keep telling myself to keep going no matter what as scary as it feels. I don't know what the sensible thing to do is though given how bad things have been today. I am on day 6 re-instating 2mg Prozac. Part of me thinks I need to increase as things are bad. I just don't know what the right thing is to do. Like if the depression / suicidal thoughts and feelings are from withdrawals from the original 60mg I was taking or if they are from re-instating and the body getting used the 2mg Prozac again or if the Prozac was medicating depression. 

 

Literally am praying to get through right now with 'this too shall pass' as the mantra. Thank you so much for encouragement and support. Any ideas as to if I should hold at 2mg or increase to something higher to try and get some relief - please let me know. 

 

Love for all who have to go through this,

 

Natalie 

Do you feel worse or better since reinstatement?  Where you having the same symptoms before or are they different? Did you taper off the Prozac or quit CT?

[natlondon]

43 minutes ago, Gridley said:

I would hold for a few more days at 2mg.  Remember, you switched to liquid and that can be a big change, so you can't really base anything on how you're feeling now.  Did you do the crossover to liquid or all at once?  

 

More is not always better in reinstating.  

 

 

Ok, thank you so, so much for the message and suggestions. I will hold at 2mg and see how I go. No I haven’t changed to the liquid yet am still using the powder doses from the tablet that I opened and cut up. 

 

Will do as you have suggested in the previous post about changing from powder to liquid and how to do it when I start the liquid. - thank you a lot for that advice. I’m so grateful.

 

In what way is more not always better with re-instating? It can make things worse - ? I thought if things really don’t improve then I’d have to try more like 10mg or 20mg to try and get some kind of relief from the depression but I guess just try and stick out 2mg at the moment. 

 

Just so new naivatiging this.

 

Natalie 

[Gridley]

Re why more is not better with reinstating:

 

During the three months you were off the Prozac, your brain adapted, to some degree,  to not having the drug.    If you take too much,  it may be too much for your brain and can cause you to become unstable.  Sometimes it can be hard to regain stability after this happens.  That's why we strongly advise against taking your previous full dose or anything near it when reinstating.  Your central nervous system (CNS) can be absolutely rocked by that large a dose since it's been a while since you were taking even a small amount of the drug.

 

These antidepressants are perverse.  It seems logical that more would be better, but with reinstatement that is not the case.

 

You are doing well.  Just hang in there and let's get you stabilized.

 

 

[JLex1981]

Hi Natalie !

I’m sorry to hear you had a bad day, just remember 1 bad day does not mean permanent bad days! They ebb and flow, get worse get better, think it’s best to look at it as “things are not getting worse.” This process is slow unfortunately and the best way I dealt with it was to think “am I better than I was last week?” If the answer is yes than reinstatement is most likely working for you. Sorry to tell you this process is slow.. I would go week by week and see if you’re getting better (even slightly). I wish like hell it was faster and I understand the pain you are going through. Those thoughts and depression are pretty common, let them pass, they do pass ! This is a marathon, you need to give it time, the good part is that you’ve made it a week now ! One week down, second one to go, it’s building up in your blood and I would hope some of the physical symptoms should abbate a little. 

I understand the feeling of questioning the amount reinstated, I did this myself constantly, especially since it takes so long to kick in you think to yourself that you want to get it right the first time.. I feel you... unfortunately time will only tell, if you feel even the slightest good signs then that will tell you your heading in the right direction and it will only get better from there. You have almost a week under your belt , have you seen even the slightest improvement in anything ? These things are sometimes so slow that we can’t even notice unless we think about last week. Also, the medicine going back in your body can make you feel a little more anxious, this has a chemical/ stimulant feeling to it, this will fade when your body adjusts. For me the emotional stuff is last to go, the physical symptoms went first. But just remember your running the race and time does make it better, you just have to watch time go by and analyze the improvements, however slight they may be . 

 

-John. 

[natlondon]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:54 AM, Gridley said:

Re why more is not better with reinstating:

 

During the three months you were off the Prozac, your brain adapted, to some degree,  to not having the drug.    If you take too much,  it may be too much for your brain and can cause you to become unstable.  Sometimes it can be hard to regain stability after this happens.  That's why we strongly advise against taking your previous full dose or anything near it when reinstating.  Your central nervous system (CNS) can be absolutely rocked by that large a dose since it's been a while since you were taking even a small amount of the drug.

 

These antidepressants are perverse.  It seems logical that more would be better, but with reinstatement that is not the case.

 

You are doing well.  Just hang in there and let's get you stabilized.

 

 

 

Hi Gridly, or anyone who can help,

 

Am coming up to 2 weeks on 2mg Prozac, am really, really struggling. The depression and suicidal feels are daily and also I get really aggressive attacks / waves daily where I am climbing the walls and screaming / crying with emotional / psychic / mental pain.  I really think I am going to need to go on a higher dose. I don't know if this is withdrawals or quite possibly it is actual depression from life situation. (relationship break up a few months ago and work situation really not good and not helped by past months of withdrawals making it virtually impossible to work). I keep trying to endure this every day but it's getting to the point where I think I am going to have to take an SSRI or something because I don't know what else to do to relieve this pain. I thought either 20mg Prozac (maybe 10mg but don't think will treat the depression?) or Sertraline (Zoloft). Haven't taken Sertraline before but psychiatrist had previously spoken about it. Obviously this is not what I want to do, I wanted to be off of these drugs. I am just really not coping at all and feel pretty desperate   Any suggestions or guidance would be so, so helpful or anyone who has had similar experience(s) and what they have done.

 

Natalie 

[ChessieCat]

Please carefully read Post #1 of this topic:  About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Psychiatric drugs are strong.  SA suggests increasing by small amounts.  We have seen members here who have reinstated too high a dose and ended up having great difficulty.  Going back to 10mg will most likely be too high a dose.  I've asked the other mods for their input on what dose you could increase to.

 

It is also better to stay on the drug your brain has adapted to.  If you change drugs you may end up experiencing withdrawal from the first drug, a bad reaction/side effects from the new drug or a combination of them.  When this happens, apart from the possibility of sensitising your CNS, it will be extremely difficult to work out what is causing what, which means it is almost impossible to know what to do.

[methuselah]

I’ve always had a hell of a a lot harder time decreasing dose as opposed to increasing.  That said and I’m not a mod or anything but seems 5mg wouldn’t be pushing it too far.  I would definitely not jump straight to 10.  Unfortunately as we know “psychiatry” is far from a perfect science and trial and error is how this works.  Wait for someone more experienced on the site to chime in just offering my .02.  

[methuselah]

I would also take some time to analyze and reassess your goals and where u r posting and asking for advice, this site by all appearances exists to help people get off ssris and the like.  I’ve felt like utter shite from poop outs and using the wrong med for me and switched up and it’s helped me.  If you’re trying to come off meds entirely switching is probably not the route to take here.

[Songbird]

8 hours ago, natlondon said:

Am coming up to 2 weeks on 2mg Prozac, am really, really struggling. ...  I really think I am going to need to go on a higher dose. ...

I thought either 20mg Prozac (maybe 10mg but don't think will treat the depression?)

 

6 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Psychiatric drugs are strong.  SA suggests increasing by small amounts.  We have seen members here who have reinstated too high a dose and ended up having great difficulty.  Going back to 10mg will most likely be too high a dose.  I've asked the other mods for their input on what dose you could increase to.

 

Nat, I think it is possible you may need a higher dose.  If so, it will be better to do a slow gradual increase to avoid shocking your system.  Sudden large dose increases have a higher risk of adverse reactions or "poop-out" (when the drug stops working).   Small changes are much easier for your system to adapt to.   Mods will come back to you about this very soon.

 

Switching to other meds is risky as SSRIs do not seem to cover for each other very well.  From what I've seen, occasionally switches work, but often they are a disaster.  In general it is better to stick with the drug your system has gotten used to.

 

Stress from life situations can certainly add to the withdrawal symptoms as you have found.  Have a look at our topic: non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello,natlondon. Hang in there, you'll need some adjustments.

 

On 5/30/2018 at 2:31 PM, natlondon said:

....

I also felt a bit like erm, well, yes it is only 4 days into taking 2mg but this afternoon I have felt normal and back to myself. Whether that would have been the case without having taken the 2mg or not I can't say but I am aware that even though it is such a tiny dose which doctors would say that will do nothing, quite possibly with my body / physiology being what seems super sensitive, this tiny bit of prozac may well be enough to have stabilised me.

....

 

 

^This is the normal progress of reinstatement, and right on time, too, as the drug takes 4-7 days to ramp up to steady-state in the body.

 

Please note this site exists because doctors know close to nothing about tapering, withdrawal symptoms, and reinstatement. It's a good thing your doctor is working with you by prescribing liquid Prozac.

 

On 6/1/2018 at 3:07 PM, natlondon said:

....

Things have been pretty bad for me today with a lot of darkness and crying I just keep telling myself to keep going no matter what as scary as it feels. I don't know what the sensible thing to do is though given how bad things have been today. I am on day 6 re-instating 2mg Prozac. Part of me thinks I need to increase as things are bad. I just don't know what the right thing is to do. Like if the depression / suicidal thoughts and feelings are from withdrawals from the original 60mg I was taking or if they are from re-instating and the body getting used the 2mg Prozac again or if the Prozac was medicating depression. 

 

Literally am praying to get through right now with 'this too shall pass' as the mantra. Thank you so much for encouragement and support. Any ideas as to if I should hold at 2mg or increase to something higher to try and get some relief - please let me know. 

....

 

Please keep repeating the 'this too shall pass' mantra. You will have waves and windows for a while. When a wave hits, you will feel all is lost, that's "normal."

 

21 hours ago, natlondon said:

....

Am coming up to 2 weeks on 2mg Prozac, am really, really struggling. The depression and suicidal feels are daily and also I get really aggressive attacks / waves daily where I am climbing the walls and screaming / crying with emotional / psychic / mental pain.  I really think I am going to need to go on a higher dose. I don't know if this is withdrawals or quite possibly it is actual depression from life situation. (relationship break up a few months ago and work situation really not good and not helped by past months of withdrawals making it virtually impossible to work). I keep trying to endure this every day but it's getting to the point where I think I am going to have to take an SSRI or something because I don't know what else to do to relieve this pain. I thought either 20mg Prozac (maybe 10mg but don't think will treat the depression?) or Sertraline (Zoloft). Haven't taken Sertraline before but psychiatrist had previously spoken about it. Obviously this is not what I want to do, I wanted to be off of these drugs. I am just really not coping at all and feel pretty desperate   Any suggestions or guidance would be so, so helpful or anyone who has had similar experience(s) and what they have done.

....

 

Your nervous system is hypersensitive from withdrawal. This is not a psychiatric illness, that's what going on and off psychiatric drugs does to the nervous system.

 

Please stay calm. How are you measuring your daily dose, are you taking it all in liquid? Look at the Prozac bottle, what is the mg/mL equivalency? How much are you taking in your syringe?

 

When did you switch entirely to liquid?

 

What time of day do you take Prozac? Do these symptoms occur at any particular time of day? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages

[Carmie]

Hi natlondon, 

 

How are you doing?💚

[natlondon]

Feel like I’ve failed

 

Hi guys, I was on this forum about 9 months ago after stopping 60mg Prozac which I was on for 6 years. Didn’t know about this forum or withdrawal when I stopped Prozac and tapered from 60mg to 40mg and held for a couple of months, then tapered from 40mg to 20mg and held for a month then trailed off the 20mg taking the odd 20mg tablet here and there. Was fine then the most horrific 4 months of my life. Joined this forum and didn’t seek medical help as I knew they would put me back on anti-depressants. Pushed through 4 months anti-depressant free but was severely, severely unwell - initially the nausea and flu like symptoms, I thought it would pass but as time continued I got worse and worse - akathesia, screaming, 24/7 severe anxiety, the most aggressive suicidal mindset I’ve ever experienced, rage, anger (I am not an angry person and have never been).

 

Tried to re-instate a small amount of Prozac but had to eventually go back to my psychiatrist. He prescribed me Vortioxetine and I said I’d take 5mg as I thought I could taper from there easily and gently. Long story short, after a year of hell i’m now on 20mg Vortioxetine. Feeling more stable but completely gutted. 

 

Feel like I failed at coming off of Prozac / anti-depressants and now am on the highest dose again just a different drug. It actually makes me feel depressed and even suicidal at times initially finding myself yet again on the highest dose of an anti-depressant. Some people around me think I will just have to be on it for life. Do I just accept that?

 

 

it feels like my brain has been permanently damaged from the 6 years of Prozac. When I came off of it it was maybe the wrong time, I was still depressed and in work I hated and a relationship ended but I continued with my taper as I was so determine. I just went into a deeper and deeper depression the longer I was off anything. So maybe this was withdrawals and then rebound depression as well as the depression that was already there that Prozac just numbed out to some extent?

 

Keen for some advice - I’m thinking stabilise on 20mg Vortioxetine and then try again at a taper? But 10% every month? I just don’t know when I’d try and start the taper again and the psychiatrist etc are keen for me to be on an anti-depressant for at least two years as it was such a severe depression and breakdown I went into. He has also said if the Vortioxetine doesn’t work then he will taper me off that whilst putting me back on Prozac. So trying this 20mg Vortioxetine for a month then the plan is to either stay on it or go back to Prozac.

 

Too terrified to look at what Vortioxetine withdrawals are like. I’ve explained to my Dad about withdrawals and he thinks I had protracted withdrawal from Prozac but also depression due to my life situation so maybe it was the wrong time to have tapered off of Prozac and maybe if I was in a good place a Vortioxetine taper (very slow) could be ok? Or do I risk re-bound depression again?

 

Part of me thinks well just accept you have to be on anti-depressants for life but I haven’t had children yet and would like to (although not in a relationship due to this horrific past year) and really don’t want to be on anti-depressants when I am pregnant. So I feel really angry that I’m on them and risk scaring a partner / husband away if I tried to taper again to have a baby and the same thing happened to when I came off of Prozac.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Natalie 

[ChessieCat]

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[Altostrata]

48 minutes ago, natlondon said:

Keen for some advice - I’m thinking stabilise on 20mg Vortioxetine and then try again at a taper? But 10% every month? I just don’t know when I’d try and start the taper again and the psychiatrist etc are keen for me to be on an anti-depressant for at least two years as it was such a severe depression and breakdown I went into. He has also said if the Vortioxetine doesn’t work then he will taper me off that whilst putting me back on Prozac. So trying this 20mg Vortioxetine for a month then the plan is to either stay on it or go back to Prozac. 

 

Hello, nat.

 

We haven't heard from you for a long time, what happened after you went back on 2mg Prozac? Did you try gradually increasing it? Why did you abandon a Prozac reinstatement?

 

Since you pretty clearly had post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) then, it's likely you continued to have it, so your dad is probably correct. A deep despair or emotional anesthesia is common in PAWS, also adverse reactions if you reinstate at too high a dosage.

 

Since vortioxetine seems to be helping, I wouldn't risk a drug switch. Stabilizing on it and gradually tapering it after a while seems a likely plan. See Tips for tapering off Trintellix (vortioxetine), previously called Brintellix

[natlondon]

Hi Altostrata,

 

Thank you so much for your reply. I have wanted to post but I promise it has been the most horrific 6 months, I honestly don’t know how I am still alive. I am still trying to get my head around all that has happened. My understanding is that when I tapered off of the 60mg Prozac going down to 40mg for a couple of months then 20mg for a couple of month then 0mg I did go through the classic withdrawals but then went into a severe depression. Combination of withdrawals and body no longer having the drug but also I likely did the taper at the wrong time - I was still feeling depressed when I was on Prozac, even 60mg and I had actually resolved any issues that I probably needed to whilst on Prozac - getting into right job / career, moving into new accommodation, dealing with the past - too numb and no real care to whilst I was on the Prozac. Thought coming off would make me more able to feel things and then deal with them. I see now it was too much to deal with all that was being numbed by Prozac. It was system overload and a complete nervous breakdown. 

 

After 4 months off of the Prozac I was getting worse and worse - like nothing I have ever experienced - when I reached out here. I tried so hard to push on, even with the liquid Prozac re-instatement I went up to 10mg but it was too vicious the state of mind I was in. Literally crawling around the floor back and forth saying ‘help me’, ‘help me’, screaming and clutching my head. The akathisia, the most severe suicidal brain. Panic attacks. Anger. A full blown nervous breakdown.

 

I had to eventually go back to my Psychiatrist as even with my Mum and Dad helping me as much as they could to stay off the drug and they went above and beyond and wanted me off the Prozac and supported it - Dad said, it’s not working, you are going to have to have some medication. And he wouldn’t have said that lightly. He literally became like a full-time carer. 

 

I said to my psychiatrist can we re-instate Prozac but he said no it’s an old drug and you were still depressed whilst on it so I suggest trying Vortioxetine. I was desperate at this stage. Thought I’d be able to stabilise on 5mg Vortioxetine and then taper from that in the future but was still severely suicidal and agitated on 5mg so we have had to go up.

 

Im really worried I’ve done permanent brain damage to myself from being on 60mg Prozac for 6 years. I’m petrified of trying to come off of Vortioxetine for fear of the same thing happening. My Dad seems to think after I came off the Prozac I went into a deep and severe depression that was partially caused and maybe triggered by Prozac withdrawal but also I was and am severely depressed about a lot of things to do with my current life situation and so coming off the Prozac likely unearthed depression that was underneath the Prozac and the Prozac was keeping it pushed down but it was still there and wasn’t resolved as I hadn’t worked through what was causing the depression.

 

My plan is to try and stabilise on the Vortioxetine and sort my life out and then taper but do it ridiculously slow and not push through like I did with Prozac not matter how bad I was feeling thinking it would resolve itself. 

 

I’m just worried that I’m someone who has had too many depressive episodes to never be able to not be on medication. I think my brain now can’t work unless it has anti-depressants as it’s got used to them and expects them. 

 

I thought I was a strong person and could white knuckle anything but this experience coming off Prozac has been actually traumatising. 

 

I hate the random leg and arm movements from the Vortioxetine as I had them with Prozac and when the drug left my system I had horrific akathisia I presume where the drug was leaving the arms and legs. Every time I feel the Vortioxetine do the same involuntary movement to my arm of leg it reminds me of that experience of akathisia and I think am I going to be dependant on these drugs forever? Can I risk another breakdown trying to come off this drug? 

 

I’m still trying to get my head around everything. I wanted to be drug free more than anything, it was my complete priority at the time I tapered and after. I seem to be someone who does suffer with depression and have had quite a few depressive episodes so I fear if I ever do get off this drug, what would happen if I had another depressive episode in the future. I’d have to go back on an anti-depressant? I’m trying to figure it all out. I know for depression, anti-depressants are part of the treatment and had I never been on anti-depressants and was as ill and depressed as I have been the past 6 months I likely would have opted to try them. Although looking back wish I had never ever touched them. 

 

I still want more more than anything to be completely drug free but guess I have to wait until the depression has gone? And I’m in the right space to try tapering again?  I’m just worried I’ve done permanent damage to my brain and it won’t ever be able to go back to ‘normal’.

 

Also, the Psychiatrist has spoken about going back on Prozac if Vortioxetine hasn’t worked - I’ve done 2 weeks on 20mg and he wants me to do 2 weeks more before deciding whether to switch me over. The Vortioxetine just seems to make me agitated and constantly anxious and I’ve still been chronically suicidal the whole time I’ve been on it. Still don’t know what the best thing is to do. Also I found that the Prozac was treating PMDD without me even knowing and now the Prozac has gone I am having two horrific weeks every month with suicidal thoughts and constant, constant crying before my menstrual cycle. The Vortioxetine doesn’t treat this at all. It’s like all the things Prozac ‘treated’ have come back multiple times more aggressive than before I was on the drug. I never had panic disorder before prozac or Generalised Anixety Disorder before Prozac but the prozac has gone it’s like I’ve got all the things it was ‘treating’ even though I only went on the Prozac for mild depression which looking back was probably because I was deficient in vitamin B12 but I had the B12 injections and also the GP prescribed Prozac.

 

With all this mess and still trying to get my head around everything and what was Prozac withdrawals and what was actually the real me and my response with my life situation (eg anxiety about things) I have thought do I just end it all. I’ve though this every day for the past year and two months and more aggressively more recently with increasing the Vortioxetine dose which physiologically makes me severely suicidal. My Dad keeps saying to hang on and he is literally my life line. I am just so gutted I’m back on an anti-depressant. Especially the highest dose again of a different anti-depressant! It makes me depressed!! Looking back I wish I’d forced the psychiatrist to just re-instate 20mg of Prozac. But maybe we would have still had to increase that upwards as I was in such a severe depression. I just don’t know and currently don’t know what the way out or way forward is with all of this. But am still here and still alive and still want to be drug free. Maybe I have to wait until I no longer feel depressed whilst on an anti-depressant and then try the taper then? It just seemed that it was about 3 months after stopping the Prozac when it must have been fully leaving or had fully left my body my problems really started. I just worry if I try tapering again would the same thing not happen once the drug is fully out of my body even with a ridiculously slow taper? 

 

Any advice or thoughts would be so greatly appreciated. 

 

Natalie 

[RichT]

Hi Nat,

 

you’ve had a really tough time,  i’m sorry you’ve had to suffer so much. Keep hanging on, you’ve done well. Don't try to get off your medication too quickly, it’s best to take your time.

 

warmest wishes,

 

Rich

 

[natlondon]

Hi Rich,

 

Thank you so much for your support and encouragement - I’m so grateful.

 

Thank you.

 

I hope you are doing ok on your journey.

 

Natalie 

[eymen23]

Hi Natalie,

 

I’m so sorry to hear you’ve been through such a traumatic experience via a fast taper from a large dose of Prozac. Although you tapered much more slowly than doctors will normally advise, a taper from 60mg would usually take several years as per our guidelines of a maximum 10% dose reduction per month. 

 

What you’ve experienced is sadly a very typical story here. Most members will report having withdrawal symptoms during the taper and then things becoming unbearable after reaching 0. We believe that this is due to how even small doses of antidepressants, which are far below that prescribed by doctors, still have significant  impacts on the serotonin transporter. What this means in practise, is that the final jump from say 10mg or 20mg to 0, is huge in effect, compared to the drop from say 60mg to 40mg. 

 

Ideally, you would have tried slowly creeping up your dose of Prozac and eventually stabilised, before starting a slow and gentle taper much further down the line. As you’ve found, doctors don’t always understand the severity of SSRI withdrawal and will often prescribe new drugs or suggest large reinstatement doses, believing that the individual has relapsed or ‘needs’ antidepressants, and that getting a hefty amount into the system will fix things quickly. Unfortunately, things are rarely this simple and many members have reinstated their previous maximum dose or started a new drug, only to tend up worse in the long run. We believe this is due to sensitisation of the nervous system, leading to relatively extreme reactions to ‘therapeutic’ doses of drugs. 

 

That is the concerning (but honest) reality of the situation most members find themselves in, but we can be hopeful that you will stabilise on vortioxetine, before being able to slowly taper in the future. 

 

One thing I want to be super clear on, is that we can not decide the best course of action for you, although we are all extremely empathetic to the difficulty of withdrawal symptoms and the pressures from family and doctors. It is your choice whether you wish to continue trialling the 20mg of vortioxetine, but given your reaction, it is probably not something we’d advise. 

 

Sadly, you are likely to struggle with difficult symptoms for some time, whichever way forward you choose. Although that will sound very pessimistic, it can be liberating upon further reflection, because it removes the pressure for you to make any impulsive decisions and ‘fix’ what you’re experiencing. Very often in these types of fast taper / cold turkey scenarios, the medication or the dosage becomes increasingly irrelevant, and the ability to tolerate difficult symptoms and be patient, becomes the real ‘fix’. This is because once the nervous system becomes ‘destabilised’, we have seen that it can take a long time for it to slowly find a healthy state of homeostasis. Part of allowing the nervous system to heal, involves keeping drugs and dosages as consistent as possible, and minimising external stress. 

 

Now that I have relayed some of the difficult truths of fast tapers / cold turkey and provided some expectation management, perhaps we will be able to gently help you assess the best way forward. 

 

You mention increasing to 20mg of vortioxetine two weeks ago. How did you feel on the 10mg dosage? Do you feel better or worse on 20mg? Overall, do you feel better on vortioxetine or worse? 

Edited June 23, 2019 by eymen23

[natlondon]

Eymen23,

 

Thank you SO much for what you have written - I have read it about ten times - seriously. Thank you so, so much. I am so grateful for your time, knowledge, experience and guidance.

 

Everything you say makes complete sense and has helped me massively to make sense of everything. 

 

So I’m understanding the way forward is to stabilise on an anti-depressant and just be patient and work through symptoms as my nervous system finds balance and homeostasis with an anti-depressant in my system and only after being stable for a good amount of time and in remission from depression I should try the 10% a month taper and hold or go up to previous 10% taper dose if I feel it’s not manageable to push through? 

 

But currently it’s just about stabilising on an anti-depressant and letting my nervous system reach homeostasis. 

 

I feel better on the Vortioxetine compared to when I was on nothing for those 4 months stopping Prozac and had the akathisia and was screaming and climbing the walls, and feel better than when I first started the Vortioxetine at 5mg and even at 10mg. I had two horrific weeks when I went up to the 20mg of

Vortioxetine but yesterday felt a bit better and more stable although crippling anxiety. It seemed to be when I put the Vortioxetine into my system it made me worse and with each dose increase my nervous system gets triggered into a horrible state but then after a few weeks it settles slightly. I know anti-depressants have the black box warning they can increase suicidal thinking when starting them or increasing the dose but I didn’t have this with Prozac.

 

When I first started Prozac all those years ago I never had such bad reaction to starting it or increasing the dose. I was just waiting for it to take the edge of the depression which it did eventually do to some extent but I never felt such horrific effects on my nervous system and brain from starting the Prozac or increasing the doses. It could be like what you have described here about my nervous system not being destabilised when I started Prozac and I was drinking alcohol daily when I started on Prozac which may have taken the edge off more although I don’t think that was the case (and am 5 years sober now so not willing to try using alcohol to help with a taper...)

 

This seems to make sense to me that coming off the Prozac destabilised my central nervous system so then trying to add any drug into a destabilised central nervous system was almost destabilising me more. I couldn’t push through on no drugs though, I tried for 4 months and it was 24/7 hell in every way imaginable - the scariest thing I’ve ever experienced. 

 

I’m thinking to remain on the 20mg Vortioxetine for the time being. To try and stabilise on this. I’m too scared about making any other changes. I wish the psychiatrist had have let me just go back on the 20mg Prozac at the time as that may have been a better solution, I don’t know though. We may have ended up having to keep increasing the dose up to 60mg again. He seemed to think I was in a severe depression and thought Vortioxetine was a better drug to treat this than Prozac. I think I was in a severe depression as a result of coming off of the Prozac but also my life situation was causing depression so it was probably not the right time to have done the Prozac taper. I just felt so numb on it and thought coming off would make me feel less depressed and more alive. Maybe the Prozac was keeping the depression some what at bay so coming off and going into protracted withdrawal and then being so viciously destabilised led into a severe depression. It was clearly the wrong time to have done the taper.

 

I’m still trying to get my head around things. I do wonder as someone who seems to suffer severe depressive episodes is it even the right thing to believe it’s ever possible to get off anti-depressants? I guess maybe if my life was in a different state and I felt fully recovered from depression whilst on this drug then it would be the right time to re-consider a taper? 

 

I think I’m going to stay on the 20mg Vortioxetine and try and stabilise. My only concern is how it affects me pre-mesntrually (it doesn’t treat PMDD) and with the Prozac gone which was treating the Pre-menstrual lead up which I think has been made worse now with the drug gone - the Vortioxetine doesn’t seem to help this so I keep getting destabilised again every 2 weeks. Maybe destabilisation of the central nervous system also causes hormones to become destabilised? It would make sense as everything else in my body was thrown completely into chaos. This is the only reason the psychiatrist has said try 20mg Vortioxetine over a menstrual cycle and if it’s not working we will have to go back to Prozac.

 

Thank you again for support with this - I have shown my Dad what you have written and he completely agrees.

 

Natalie 

 

[eymen23]

Hi Natalie,

 

You are very welcome, I’m glad I could help you gain a little bit of clarity in what is such a confusing and difficult time. You write well and show a lot of insight, which really helps when it comes to providing guidance. 

 

1 hour ago, natlondon said:

So I’m understanding the way forward is to stabilise on an anti-depressant and just be patient and work through symptoms as my nervous system finds balance and homeostasis with an anti-depressant in my system and only after being stable for a good amount of time and in remission from depression I should try the 10% a month taper and hold or go up to previous 10% taper dose if I feel it’s not manageable to push through? 

 

But currently it’s just about stabilising on an anti-depressant and letting my nervous system reach homeostasis. 

 

I feel better on the Vortioxetine compared to when I was on nothing for those 4 months stopping Prozac and had the akathisia and was screaming and climbing the walls, and feel better than when I first started the Vortioxetine at 5mg and even at 10mg. I had two horrific weeks when I went up to the 20mg of

Vortioxetine but yesterday felt a bit better and more stable although crippling anxiety. It seemed to be when I put the Vortioxetine into my system it made me worse and with each dose increase my nervous system gets triggered into a horrible state but then after a few weeks it settles slightly. 

 

You’re correct, it is important that you allow your nervous system the time to try and find stability again and given how severe your withdrawal symptoms were without Prozac (and that you feel better with vortioxetine) it appears that the best course of action is to stabilise on a dose of vortioxetine. When we say ‘stabilise’ we don’t necessarily mean being symptom-free, rather we refer to a time when symptoms are bearable and consistent. 

 

Unfortunately, it’s rare for members to fast taper from a large dose of an antidepressant, and after reinstating or trialling a new drug, to go on to feel the same way they did prior to the fast taper. That’s not to say that you can’t feel much better, just that it’s unlikely you’ll feel exactly the same way you did on 60mg of Prozac.

 

As you’re starting to get an appreciation for, our nervous systems can only deal with so much ‘chopping and changing’. When you first started Prozac, your nervous system was likely able to better tolerate the drug introduction and dosage changes. Now that your nervous system has become ‘destabilised’ by the fast taper, it is reacting more extremely to the introduction of another drug and subsequent dose increases, as noted by the intense symptoms upon making dosage changes.

 

You note that you are now 5 years sober, which means at some point your nervous system also had to deal with alcohol withdrawal, which is another shock, which could be further playing into the nervous system destabilisation you’re currently experiencing (but perhaps not, it was some time ago now). 

 

As I alluded to previously, the very act of trying to ‘fix’ how you are feeling, can sometimes lead to worse outcomes down the line. We have seen this in members many times, that just like yourself, they endure ‘hell’ after fast tapering or cold turkeying a drug, but then continue to add drugs, stop drugs, change dosages, in an attempt to feel better again. However, all it usually does is further destabilise the nervous system and create further symptoms, which will take longer to resolve. 

 

I would strongly suggest that you try and stabilise on vortioxetine, making note of our definition of this term above, and then make a decision as to what you will do later down the line (taper or not taper). Trying to make decisions about future tapers or drug changes so far in advance and whilst experiencing so much anxiety and trauma, is only likely to make you feel less optimistic about the future and more scared.

 

The severe symptoms experienced in withdrawal, can be very traumatic and often deplete the confidence of our members, to the point they feel paralysed in what to do next, in fear they will have to endure the same or worse again. From my experience, it’s best to wait till you feel well and start to regain your sense of optimism and confidence, before making a decision as to whether you should taper or not. I always know when I’m ready to make another dosage reduction in my taper, as I feel ready to cope with it. That’s what I would suggest you wait for, before dealing with the difficult question of whether you need an antidepressant or not. 

 

Further to that point, I would strongly suggest that as you feel better, you gently begin to explore the areas of your life which contribute to your depressive episodes. Do you carry negative beliefs about yourself, that you acquired during your childhood? Do you enjoy your work and/or career? Do you have loving and supportive friends, or toxic ones that drag you down? Do you take time to truly rest and unwind, or do you always live ‘on the go’? Do you eat to nourish your body and build it back up, or to fill a hole whilst living a busy life? These are all (in my humble opinion) very important questions that need to be addressed, before deciding whether you are inherently ‘broken’ and in need of psychiatric drugs. Undoubtedly,

some people may need chemical assistance, but I truly believe that with the right lifestyle changes, most people will be able to live a life that they are happy to live. 

 

Last point from me, is that 20mg of vortioxetine might be a little excessive. How do you feel about 15mg or 17.5mg? 10mg to 20mg is quite a jump, and at the two week mark you might be able to drop that a little without too much difficulty.  

[ChessieCat]

8 hours ago, eymen23 said:

Last point from me, is that 20mg of vortioxetine might be a little excessive. How do you feel about 15mg or 17.5mg? 10mg to 20mg is quite a jump, and at the two week mark you might be able to drop that a little without too much difficulty.  

 

Just wanted to draw your attention to this ^.  It is right at the bottom of eymen's post so you might miss seeing it.

 

8 hours ago, eymen23 said:

When we say ‘stabilise’ we don’t necessarily mean being symptom-free, rather we refer to a time when symptoms are bearable and consistent. 

 

WDnormal (withdrawal normal)

 

9 hours ago, natlondon said:

I should try the 10% a month taper and hold or go up to previous 10% taper dose if I feel it’s not manageable to push through? 

 

If you make a 10% reduction and find that it is too much of a decrease you don't necessarily go back to the previous dose.  You can make an updose.  I found when I reduced too much that even a small increase helped to take the edge off my symptoms and brought them to a bearable level.  You might find that you need to hold for longer before making the next reduction.

 

And you don't have to make a 10% reduction, you can do less.  And some members are doing Brass Monkey Slide  

[natlondon]

Eymen23 and Chessiecat,

 

Thank you SO much for what you have both written. I’m so grateful for your time, knowledge, experience and guidance. Everything is making a lot more sense now. 

 

In relation to withdrawal and protracted withdrawal and PAWS - is my body still going through this from the Fluoxetine being stopped 16 months ago? -and going into that nervous breakdown, chronic suicidal, hell space as a result? It feels like it has been continuous symptoms for 16 months but some less severe now than then. Has it been protracted withdrawal / PAWS that I have been going through which may have also put me into a deep depression? And still protracted withdrawal now? 

 

The Vortioxetine hasn’t appeared to provide anything more than some slight relief - still feel hugely depressed and battling suicidal thoughts all the time. I think that is why the psychiatrist increased the dose from 10mg to 20mg saying we need to just exhaust this drug by going to the max to see if it works. 

 

Would the protracted withdrawal still be in operation despite the introduction of Vortioxetine which is supposed to provide relief from depression / suicidal thinking?

 

I feel pretty trapped - stuck on the Vortioxetine, very scared to taper, if I tell my psychiatrist it isn’t working as still feel chronically depressed and suicidal he is likely to say he is switching me back to Fluoxetine. 

 

I’m thinking I may be right that if you have had protracted withdrawal, the introduction of the same anti-depressant or a different one may not actually work. I just don’t know how I am to get through every day in this predicament. I’ve thought about suicidal every day for so many months now, always holding on that things may feel better but don’t know what options are there except anti-depressants for relief but knowing what I know now it seems I just have to pray that with more time I may feel less depressed?

 

The psychiatrist did say there was the possibility of going down to 10mg or 15mg of Vortioxetine and adding 10mg or 20mg or Fluoxetine to this. I don’t know if this would be a good move or not. 

 

I was doing okish on the 10mg Vortioxetine it was just hell every two weeks pre-mesntrually. I understand Fluoxetine is also used to treat PMDD so taking it away has made my monthly experience as a woman more horrific than I ever thought was possible. Almost like amplified 100 fold along with all the other things Prozac ‘treats’ - coming of the drug has made these things it treats become problems I never had before the drug, or not at least to the extreme extent I’ve experienced them. I thought re-introducing Fluoxetine would treat the PMDD though as I’m getting destabilised massively every 2 weeks. Or maybe with more time on the Vortioxetine the pre-menstrual weeks will settle more as part of the protracted withdrawal from the Fluoxetine settling?

 

I understand I need to be on an anti-depressant at the moment and stabilise on it. This makes sense. So it will either be the Vortioxetine or if on the 20mg I still am getting destabilised every month then I will have to add Fluoxetine in as well by reducing the Vortioxetine. Or alternatively switch back completely to Fluoxetine. 

 

Unless you have any suggestions / insights / experience with this kind of situation. I do hear you though that I shouldn’t be looking at trying to find solutions / add more drugs to all my symptoms - I refused adding Pregabalin 3 times a day for the anxiety I now experience from coming off of Prozac like all the time, still, for example, and refused adding Abilify to the Vortioxetine. The latest my psychiatrist has said it to add Lamotrigine to pull me from such a deep depression - he clearly doesn’t understand protracted withdrawal even when I’ve tried to explain it to him. It’s just the PMDD that is the only thing that is massively destabilising me every month. I think anti-depressants must mess with your hormones too. I just think maybe coming down to 10mg Vortioxetine and adding a small amount of Fluoxetine may be what I have to do? I don’t know, it’s just

horffically destabilising every month on the Vortioxetine which doesn’t treat PMDD at all in any capacity. Maybe if I added a small amount of Fluoxetine and when I came to taper that very slowly the PMDD symptoms wouldn’t appear with such vengeance?

 

So grateful for your guidance and for this forum and any suggestions. Never felt so stuck in a situation ever before in my life. 

 

Biggest blessings,

 

Natalie 

[eymen23]

Hi Natalie,

 

Did you experience PMDD whilst off of Prozac (and prior to starting Vortioxetine)? 

 

Unfortunately, there is no certainty that adding in Prozac or switching over to it will stop these destabilising symptoms happening every 2 weeks, it could make things even worse. Sadly, we just don’t know. Once the nervous system becomes destabilised by a fast taper, it is anybody’s guess as to how it will react to new drugs and/or drastic changes. 

 

In my opinion, your current symptoms are very likely to be caused by antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, despite the fact you are taking a new antidepressant. Sadly, for a number of members the withdrawal symptoms linger for a long time, whether they stay off of psychiatric drugs or restart them. The fact you are experiencing some relief since beginning Vortioxetine should be taken as a small victory, as some members become so sensitive to SSRI’s they can’t restart them and must soldier on through very severe, acute withdrawal symptoms. 

 

If you do feel your symptoms are so severe that you need to trial more antidepressants (or other classes of drugs), we can’t assist members in working out now to proceed, that is strictly for medical professionals to assist with. We will always respect your decisions and try our best to offer support, but there is a line we have to draw us moderators operating via an online forum. 

 

Similarly, if you are experiencing suicidal thoughts and get to the point you consider yourself a high risk, we would strongly recommend you to seek out on-the-ground support. In the UK, the Samaritans are often highly recommended. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by eymen23

[Peachy]

I am right there with you. Never had “PMDD” until I tapered down my Lexapro, and now every cycle is hell. I’m actually totally fine the rest of the time. It’s so bad I have been considering lupron shots or a full hysterectomy. I have been dealing with it for 3 years. Just tried Yaz and that was hell. 

[Eastcoastgirl]

I also have PMDD symptoms thanks to withdrawal and unfortunately adding in a small amount of Prozac doesn't help at all despite the fact that i'm now fairly stable the rest of the month. I even went back on my full dose (10mg) months ago and still had PMDD symptoms. In my mind, once your nervous system is sensitized I think some women will have PMDD symptoms regardless of whether they are on or off SSRIs, at least this has been the case for me & i've spoken with some other ladies who sadly seem to be in the same situation.

 

The only thing I have had some luck with is lavender 80mg capsules. They are very calming to my nervous system.

[natlondon]

Hi guys, 

 

Thank you so much for your replies to my post. Completely hear all you have said.

 

After things being absolutely unbearably horrific with PMDD for a week and doing 4 weeks on 20mg Vortioxetine I have spoken to my psychiatrist and despite fears it won’t work he has said to drop from 20mg to 10mg Vortioxetine for 2 days and remain on 10mg Vortioxetine daily and add 10mg liquid Prozac daily. 

 

I said is 20mg to 10mg drop over 2 days not too fast? He said no... and adding the 10mg Prozac will take the edge off.

 

So I did 15mg Vortioxetine yesterday and 10mg Vortioxetine today and plan to do 10mg Vortioxetine tomorrow - after being on 20mg Vortioxetine for 4 weeks and prior to that 10mg Vortioxetine for 9 months. I am petrified of more change but literally cannot do nothing in relation to the PMDD at this stage.

 

Tried a hormone treatment for the PMDD  - Estrogel and Utrogestan and it completely destabilised me when I added the Utrogestan for the last 10 days of the month. Likely because my CNS is still destabilised? Even though it’s been 1 year and 3 months of this 😫 

 

So scared, but so desperate. I know adding the Prozac may not work but I can’t do the PMDD every month and have to try. 

 

Keen for any advice / suggestions. 

 

Feel fine tapering off of the Vortioxetine at this 20mg dose to 10mg as just feel agitated and anxious all the time on this dose and jacked up but bit worried about 20mg to 10mg drop - wanted to get it done with and just try the Prozac again for the PMDD as literally cannot go on living like this. A year and 3 months with every day full of so many symptoms cycling, anxiety, agitation, depression - arghhh.

 

Also just hoping and praying that with more time things can stabilise? That my life won’t be like this forever? 

 

Planning on stabilising hopefully on 10mg Vortioxetine and 10mg-20mg Prozac. Getting to this place and then adding no more medication and praying I then stabilise and maybe with more time symptoms will ease off? Really can’t imagine having to do another year or 2 or 3 or 4 or this 😬 literally white knuckled a year and 3 months to keep myself alive. Zero suicide attempts, zero self harm, not one drop of alcohol, literally living on a prayer 🙏 

 

Natalie