Snorky: Reinstatement of amitriptyline

[Happy2Heal]

On 4/13/2020 at 5:01 AM, Snorky said:

Did you see my ref to sequence in relation to head sensations in bed. Ie sensations happen without negative thoughts.

 

I took a break from following your thread Snorky because you were starting so many sentences with "the problem is..." that I was getting discouraged about the amnt of time and effort I'd put in to helping you- all to no avail.

 

 

I'm glad to see you're working on solutions now instead!!

 

 

as far as WD goes, there are some things that are just part of your brain healing, that are going to be uncomfortable and unpleasant

 

and as you've seen, no amount of thinking about it differently will change those symptoms.

 

that is when most of us resort to a different method, based off the teachings of Claire Weekes I believe

 

it's called acknowledge, accept and float.  AAF for short

 

you notice the distressing sensation and acknowledge it, so in your case it might be, I'm having those awful head sensations again

you accept them, no sense in doing otherwise, but this can be hard.

I had feelings and experiences during WD that were very distressing to me and made me angry

It took a long time to realize that getting angry wasn't going to make them go away.

for some of the symptoms of WD only time is going to heal you. Perhaps your head sensations are one of yours

 

so, you accept the sensation . You don't have to like it but don't add to it by thinking things like, OMG I'll never get thru this or OMG this is never going to end

 

just say, here is that feeling again, and then, you FLOAT.

 

that's a much much harder thing to explain but from my understanding it's just going about your business accepting that this distressing feeling is going to be your companion for awhile. some ppl even describe making that sensation a "friend"  Yeh I know, it's hard to think of unpleasant sensations as friends, right?? some of the people on this forum as SO flipping creative and fun.

 

 

it's probably one of the hardest parts of WD recovery but learning to handle distressing feelings is going to be a HUGE help to you in everyday life

 

I know it is for me, I still struggle with intense emotions, it's one of the reasons I was put on drugs in the first place, I'm "emotional" and by  some ppls standards, too much so 😕

well that's debatable LOL
but regardless, I needed to learn how to soothe myself

I needed to learn to not freak out by bad feelings and to realize that they will pass

I needed to learn to tolerate distress

 

these are hard things to do but you've definitely got a strong personality so you're going to be able to manage it

 

keep paying attention to what is working

talk about what IS helping, even if it is only a TINY bit of help. try hard not to add any buts.

just say like, for example, taking a bath in epsom salts helped a little

or deep breathing got me thru for 20 mins

or talking to my family distracted me from how I was feeling, etc

 

 

trust me on this, the more you focus on those things that are helping, the better you're going to feel 

 

 

[Snorky]

1 hour ago, Happy2Heal said:

 

I took a break from following your thread Snorky because you were starting so many sentences with "the problem is..." that I was getting discouraged about the amnt of time and effort I'd put in to helping you- all to no avail.

 

 

I'm glad to see you're working on solutions now instead!!

 

 

as far as WD goes, there are some things that are just part of your brain healing, that are going to be uncomfortable and unpleasant

 

and as you've seen, no amount of thinking about it differently will change those symptoms.

 

that is when most of us resort to a different method, based off the teachings of Claire Weekes I believe

 

it's called acknowledge, accept and float.  AAF for short

 

you notice the distressing sensation and acknowledge it, so in your case it might be, I'm having those awful head sensations again

you accept them, no sense in doing otherwise, but this can be hard.

I had feelings and experiences during WD that were very distressing to me and made me angry

It took a long time to realize that getting angry wasn't going to make them go away.

for some of the symptoms of WD only time is going to heal you. Perhaps your head sensations are one of yours

 

so, you accept the sensation . You don't have to like it but don't add to it by thinking things like, OMG I'll never get thru this or OMG this is never going to end

 

just say, here is that feeling again, and then, you FLOAT.

 

that's a much much harder thing to explain but from my understanding it's just going about your business accepting that this distressing feeling is going to be your companion for awhile. some ppl even describe making that sensation a "friend"  Yeh I know, it's hard to think of unpleasant sensations as friends, right?? some of the people on this forum as SO flipping creative and fun.

 

 

it's probably one of the hardest parts of WD recovery but learning to handle distressing feelings is going to be a HUGE help to you in everyday life

 

I know it is for me, I still struggle with intense emotions, it's one of the reasons I was put on drugs in the first place, I'm "emotional" and by  some ppls standards, too much so 😕

well that's debatable LOL
but regardless, I needed to learn how to soothe myself

I needed to learn to not freak out by bad feelings and to realize that they will pass

I needed to learn to tolerate distress

 

these are hard things to do but you've definitely got a strong personality so you're going to be able to manage it

 

keep paying attention to what is working

talk about what IS helping, even if it is only a TINY bit of help. try hard not to add any buts.

just say like, for example, taking a bath in epsom salts helped a little

or deep breathing got me thru for 20 mins

or talking to my family distracted me from how I was feeling, etc

 

 

trust me on this, the more you focus on those things that are helping, the better you're going to feel 

 

 

Hi

 

Nice to speak to you also.

 

I suppose the fact that I managed to return to work after six week sick absence is v positive. (This is recorded in my book along with other positive experiences and windows) This includes my “gratitude” list as that helps to deflect from the “all about me” tendency.  I’m also really trying to engage with things I used to love, reading, podcasts, as well as all the mindfulness and meditation stuff. 

 

Believe me, O really get the catastrophising, need to promote coping and distraction techniques and am trying those.

 

However,,,,, I have been v worried by the intensification of some neuro type symptoms, particularly the pains and pins and needles in my head. I’ve looked at head Paresthesia and can see links with certain meds.You can certainly float with it, and I tell myself I can tolerate this, over and over. Thing is, last night I couldn’t as it was too painful.  If I could see some alleviation of that, the parallel lower leg pain and my head tremors, I’d be laughing.

 

Only other thing if more relates to work. Like world and his wife, been working from home with laptop during recent lockdown. For me, work was a salvation offering “endless distractions” etc. However, this week had a few episodes of anxiety/panic where I completely lost it trying to understand figures. Not nice feeling,, kept wanting to replay issues late into night. Never had neurosis like that before. Also to happen almost four months after I returned to work. 

 

Forgot to say, I also try and exercise every day. Gym until closed, now walk after I log off at 3.

 

Nice to engage with you. Hope you and yours are safely tucked up indoors.

[Snorky]

Hi

 

V brief update. Stopped 25mg magnesium glycinate last night, and didn’t get the barrage of neuro type symptoms on Wednesday. Not great, but not same degree of pain, pins and needles etc. Not sure whether attributed to this, or coincidence. Now not sure whether to reinstate 25mg, stop altogether, up dose, start Omega 3 etc? (Last one particularly frustrating as could alleviate head symptoms?)

 

There’s just as much playing Russian Roulette with the supplements, as there is with the ADs, isn’t there😡

[Snorky]

Hi

 

Thought I’d provide a brisk update.

 

Seven months and two weeks into Amitriptyline CT, trying all the techniques recommended, including dial in to employer’s virtual mental health support sessions. (I work for UK gov dept, and they recognise risks of social isolation since they sent us all home with our laptops about a month ago) Joined two sessions today, one on mindfulness, the other body scan.

 

Despite best endeavours, struggling to manage symptoms. (Mainly head tension/pins and needles sensations and related mental debility- see below) I’ve mentioned these b4, but think I understand more now. My sleep is always interrupted around 4. I then distract and ignore the physical head cramps and usually get another two hours or so. However, on waking around six, I get this mental tightening that is much harder to ignore. It pervades through the day, and makes work and communication with colleagues v difficult. (It’s 18.50 now and it’s carried on while Im trying a 10000 piece jigsaw in the garden)

 

I had yet another call with triage Doc the other day, He thought reinstatement of 37.5mg ven would probably relive both mental and physical symptoms, albeit anxiety related. (He didn’t think my 24/7 lower leg pains snd needles and pain were attributed to spinal degeneration-looked at 2018 MRI and said fairly typical of 60 year old)

 

Well there you have it. I hope you can see I’m holding off AD reinstatement as long as I can. I keep telling myself:

 

These are typical AD withdrawal symptoms.

 

They’re common.

 

They’ll improve.

 

I tried 50 mg mag glycinate a few weeks ago, but stopped as had one v bad night. (Slightly better night after stopping) I wonder if I should just risk 200mg tablet and also Omega 3???

 

Sorry so long.

 

Thanks

[Colonial]

That's great news the Employer has the groups up and running!

So, are you getting more sleep per night now on average, even if it's broken up?

I know for me and some others the insomnia breaking was what needed to happen before the body and mind could heal and I saw progress with the rest.

 

[mstimc]

Hi Snorky

 

The most important thing I'm reading from your latest post is that you keep trying and hoping it'll be better one day.  That is so important, my friend!  As we've pointed out before, recovery is slow (sometimes painfully so), incremental and uneven, but once it reaches a certain point, it moves more quickly.  Right now you're in that place where its just a daily slog.  But that, too will pass.  Keep the faith!

[Snorky]

29 minutes ago, Colonial said:

That's great news the Employer has the groups up and running!

So, are you getting more sleep per night now on average, even if it's broken up?

I know for me and some others the insomnia breaking was what needed to happen before the body and mind could heal and I saw progress with the rest.

 

More often than not, I sleep until about 3.30/4, then for about another few hours. It’s been like that for about s month now. Probably slightly more sleep on average. However, I’ve looked at my diary and can see this mental tightening/edgy feeling stated a few weeks ago. When I wake for the second time, it always kicks in and I have no chance to sleep or even rest from that point on.

[Snorky]

I tempted providence again. I woke at 4, then bombarded with head pins and needles and usual stomach churning. The mind tension/anguish kicks in, and you can kiss goodbye to any further sleep. An awful anguish/edge type feeling, checking clock every five minutes, waiting to get to 7am when I get up to work from home. To be clear, it's not just no sleep, the complete inability to rest. Not the sort of thing that responds to "face , accept, float, let time pass".

[mstimc]

Snorky, the nature of recovery is slow and uneven, with some small windows and  longer waves a pattern that slowly reverses to longer windows and shorter, less intense waves.  Your first post from yesterday was reflective of that--you were in a bit of a window.  Hang onto that.  As you can see from others' posts, what you're experiencing isn't unique, although that doesn't make it any easier to live with, but it'll improve with time.

[Snorky]

1 hour ago, mstimc said:

Snorky, the nature of recovery is slow and uneven, with some small windows and  longer waves a pattern that slowly reverses to longer windows and shorter, less intense waves.  Your first post from yesterday was reflective of that--you were in a bit of a window.  Hang onto that.  As you can see from others' posts, what you're experiencing isn't unique, although that doesn't make it any easier to live with, but it'll improve with time.

Thanks. It’s very unfortunate. The level of agitation and restlessness has become unbearable. I know there is a condition called agitation depression, and wonder whether that has somehow been precipitated by the WD?  You take my point though. This level of anxiety, depression and agitation is very debilitating. 

[Snorky]

Further update 

 

Here we go again. 

 

Woke at 4. Firstly, severe pins and needles and sharp nerve sensations in scalp and legs. Trying to sleep or rest then impossible as mental restlessness, edge and agitation kick in. Tried meditation, deep breathing, but no joy. God knows how this is going to resolve itself.

 

 

[Snorky]

Done a bit of research. Seems the restlessness could be due to serotonin/dopamine imbalance. This is oft cited with certain meds, when coming off is one of ways to address. What I don’t get is how this plays out in case of CT? 

 

Thanks. 

[mstimc]

Snorky, maybe it would be more helpful for you to spend a little less time and effort trying to find the cause of you symptoms.  Yesterday, it was "agitation depression".  Today its a serotonin/dopamine imbalance.  How has all the effort you've spent looking for causes benefited your WD and recovery?  Unless it helps you implement some kind of recovery strategy, it might be more beneficial to focus your efforts on truly and stubbornly working on recovery methods.

[Colonial]

Restlessness could be due to serotonin/dopamine imbalance.  Or it could be something else. 

But knowing how things interact is not as important in moving forward as we think.

Many of us labour under the delusion that if we could figure out the exact reason why something is, it would make it easier for us to cope with it. The reality is it doesn't.  We just sometimes fool ourselves into thinking its important.  And that's a high percentage of people.  The truth is, it's our mental outlook on going forward, and not taking the symptoms too seriously that determines our level of recovery, and the constant, either ruminations or negative thinking delays it.

 

I don't think you realize the amount of negative thinking you engage in, which leads me to conclude it's not something that started with the withdrawal.  Even when you report something in a positive way, inevitably you end up with either statements like today:

 

"Here we go again.  God knows how this is going to resolve itself."

 

Or another phrase that happened more than once:  " I did this or that positive, And I was "rewarded" with this or that negative outcome.

 

I realize you may not understand how that undermines not only the short term and long term recovery, but the positivity and or negativity of our thoughts do help or hurt in both the short and long term, with more underlining anxiety, even if the person doesn't recognize it as such.

 

I'm afraid until you start taking "captive" each negative thought and reversing it, your recovery will be more difficult.  I do appreciate that most of our day our mind is running on automatic and subconscious assumptions and patterns, so this is something we all have to do. And we all appreciate how hard that can be, because most of us have been there.  But the only thing that is going to help is to start really thinking about what your thinking about consciously, and just as important, to really think about what You TYPE in this forum before You do, as to avoid the negative consequences of doing so.  You can choose to keep thinking negative thoughts if you choose, but if you keep "willfully" typing them in the forum I'm afraid it won't be in your best interest.

 

 

[Snorky]

13 minutes ago, Colonial said:

Restlessness could be due to serotonin/dopamine imbalance.  Or it could be something else. 

But knowing how things interact is not as important in moving forward as we think.

Many of us labour under the delusion that if we could figure out the exact reason why something is, it would make it easier for us to cope with it. The reality is it doesn't.  We just sometimes fool ourselves into thinking its important.  And that's a high percentage of people.  The truth is, it's our mental outlook on going forward, and not taking the symptoms too seriously that determines our level of recovery, and the constant, either ruminations or negative thinking delays it.

 

I don't think you realize the amount of negative thinking you engage in, which leads me to conclude it's not something that started with the withdrawal.  Even when you report something in a positive way, inevitably you end up with either statements like today:

 

"Here we go again.  God knows how this is going to resolve itself."

 

Or another phrase that happened more than once:  " I did this or that positive, And I was "rewarded" with this or that negative outcome.

 

I realize you may not understand how that undermines not only the short term and long term recovery, but the positivity and or negativity of our thoughts do help or hurt in both the short and long term, with more underlining anxiety, even if the person doesn't recognize it as such.

 

I'm afraid until you start taking "captive" each negative thought and reversing it, your recovery will be more difficult.  I do appreciate that most of our day our mind is running on automatic and subconscious assumptions and patterns, so this is something we all have to do. And we all appreciate how hard that can be, because most of us have been there.  But the only thing that is going to help is to start really thinking about what your thinking about consciously, and just as important, to really think about what You TYPE in this forum before You do, as to avoid the negative consequences of doing so.  You can choose to keep thinking negative thoughts if you choose, but if you keep "willfully" typing them in the forum I'm afraid it won't be in your best interest.

 

 

I try to be balanced on looking for positives from waves. I referred to agitation depression yesterday, as had episode with husband, with big anger/agitation spike. I then switched to restlessness, as that ticked my situation this morning. V palpable, sleep and rest depriving. I just call it what it is. I’m trying to work on the thoughts that give the symptoms their power, but limited scope, when it’s the symptoms themselves that overwhelm and terrify me.

 

Sorry

[mstimc]

Snorky, what do you hope to gain by figuring out the source of and constantly redefining your symptoms?  What do you intend to do wiht the information?

[Colonial]

Sorry about the issue with Your husband, but that's unfortunately normal that when we have an internal adrenaline spike for any reason, it will cause a temporary uptick in the symptoms.  It's our bodies way of saying:  "I'm already trying to heal, please don't add any more stress on top of it".  

 

That's the reality of it and mostly all we need to know. 

We don't have to go looking for an independent reason for a symptom spike outside of the adrenaline spike caused by any stressful event. 

 

[Snorky]

Addressing both posts in one. Not redefining, just describing. I think the restlessness has been mentioned by many, so not imagined, exaggerated? I also note the acknowledgment that this could be linked to hormone imbalance. My specific point there was looking for practical advice on what could be done in the context of CT?

[mstimc]

Many of us have shared ideas and links to coping and management techniques.  They are all in the context of withdrawal.  And you know many others here have experienced the same.   I don't understand what it is you're looking for--a behavioral practice?  A new med?  What can we do to support your recovery?

[Snorky]

7 minutes ago, mstimc said:

Many of us have shared ideas and links to coping and management techniques.  They are all in the context of withdrawal.  And you know many others here have experienced the same.   I don't understand what it is you're looking for--a behavioral practice?  A new med?  What can we do to support your recovery?

What am I looking for? A .0001% improvement in symptoms. Not much really. I am also moving heaven and earth to avoid reinstatement of AD. Thought that was clear from earlier posts.

[mstimc]

We've given you a ton of advice and support on how to deal with your symptoms, including reminding you it takes time and is rarely a steady improvement curve.  I've been through it and assure you that you can get through it too.

[Snorky]

I guess our journeys are all different. In my case, I should have realised how freight coming off amitriptyline at 25mg in Sept 19. (Thirty year’s usage on various ADs)

 

[Colonial]

On 4/23/2020 at 2:04 PM, Snorky said:

I had yet another call with triage Doc the other day, He thought reinstatement of 37.5mg ven would probably relive both mental and physical symptoms, albeit anxiety related.

 

Im interested in why he-she thinks reinstating the Ven would help the Amtripyline wd.

Does he-she have any cold case study data or are they just guessing?

[Snorky]

7 minutes ago, Colonial said:

 

Im interested in why he-she thinks reinstating the Ven would help the Amtripyline wd.

Does he-she have any cold case study data or are they just guessing?

Probably because I had some functioning on ven for ten years, prior to amitriptyline disaster? Despite, 18 month gap, sensitised CNS etc.

[Colonial]

Sounds like typical uneducated well meaning individual.

But, even the broken clock accidentally happens to be right twice a day even if it's for the wrong reason.

 

[Snorky]

I can only report what I was told.

[Snorky]

The other thing is, I only mentioned the physiological symptoms to the Doc. (Tremors, pins and needles in scalp and legs) I didn’t mention the psychological ones, including the restlessness. I guess that may have given him chance to cite likelihood of dopamine/serotonin imbalance? Just a thought.

[Colonial]

But as we have seen with so many others, there comes a tipping point where You can only mess with the brain chemistry so many times, and then once You've fallen off the cliff  so to speak, even meds that didn't give a bad reaction at one time no longer help either.  The old "Straw that broke the camels back" sort of thing.

 

 

[Snorky]

That’s cheered me up no end. 

[Colonial]

Well, that is the reason for such a high fail rate with Psych meds to begin with.

Doctors are trained to try to make people "feel" better and not "be" better.

Meaning instead of dealing with the root issues of why people are in distress, just drug them with a "Happy Pill" and hope that "Cheers" them.

 

But from societies economic stand point, its cheaper to just drug all the problem people, and if a certain percentage has a bad reaction to the meds or to coming off them? Just blame it on the patient being "ill" to begin with.

 

Then, it becomes worse when the Patients refuse to do what they need to "become" better, and just want to sit around all day and complain about their symptoms.

In some cases, it's hard to decide who's more to blame, the doctors pushing the drugs or the patients still looking for an easy "fix" when it obviously failed the first time.

 

 

[Snorky]

“Easy fix”😀

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, Colonial said:

I don't think you realize the amount of negative thinking you engage in, which leads me to conclude it's not something that started with the withdrawal.  Even when you report something in a positive way, inevitably you end up with either statements like today:

 

"Here we go again.  God knows how this is going to resolve itself."

 

Or another phrase that happened more than once:  " I did this or that positive, And I was "rewarded" with this or that negative outcome.

 

I realize you may not understand how that undermines not only the short term and long term recovery, but the positivity and or negativity of our thoughts do help or hurt in both the short and long term, with more underlining anxiety, even if the person doesn't recognize it as such.

 

We can learn how to deal with our thought patterns.  However the first thing is to recognise how we react to our thought patterns.  Not long before I started tapering I did an online Cognitive Behaviour Therapy course and I have benefited immensely from what I learned.  I'm now 62 and wish that I had learned this when I was a teenager.  Even when something is a fact/real there are different ways in which we can respond to the situation we are currently in.

 

Nobody can learn these things on your behalf.  Only you can do it.

 

Do yourself a favour and check these out.  There might be something there that can make some difference to how you cope with what you are experiencing.

 

UNHELPFUL THINKING HABITS or Cognitive Distortions:  https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/unhelpful.htm

 

ABOUT AUTOMATIC THOUGHTS - DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !!:  https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/thoughts.htm

 

Learning how to handle our thinking in a better way can help to reduce stress and anxiety.  There is a diagram on this page that shows how anxiety affects the body.  https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/anxiety.htm

 

COGNITIVE BEHAVIOUR THERAPY What is CBT and how can it help?:  https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/cbt.htm

[Snorky]

Hi

 

I’m talking about symptoms, not thoughts. It’s the symptoms that are crippling me.

[Snorky]

It’s 3,50am here. I went to bed at midnight but experienced the same symptoms I had yesterday morning. Ie. As soon as I laid my head down, got awful sensations in head and agitation. (I think this is more agitation than restlessness, but will let others decide) Completely unable to sleep, I’ve been lying there for hours, before finally deciding to go downstairs to get some water and break things up. 

 

My usual insomnia pattern is to wake about 4, then get the sensations and be unable to get back to sleep. This is the first time ever the symptoms have kicked in so early. In other words, I haven’t slept a wink and now reached the point where I would wake up normally. 

 

This is is more than the usual cortisol spike stuff. Had got used to that. Does it sound more like agitation or restlessness? I hope you will see there are no thoughts at play in this situation.

 

Thanks 

[Colonial]

13 minutes ago, Snorky said:

This is is more than the usual cortisol spike stuff.

 

It's probably that, just more so since the episode with Your Husband.

I had to "learn" to walk away from stress and conflict, which was hard when your assured Your the one who's "right".

But it was the same as with My Cancer.  Talking made it too difficult to breathe, so even though I wanted to "correct" people who said something incorrect, there was just too immediate and difficult price to have to pay with the difficulty and learned to keep my mouth shut. 

I learned the same principle applied to the cortisol spikes being worse from engaging in setting the record straight on things in WD.

I Realized I was more important than other people KNOWING I was right.

[ChessieCat]

41 minutes ago, Snorky said:

I’m talking about symptoms, not thoughts. It’s the symptoms that are crippling me.

 

And I stated this:

 

4 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Even when something is a fact/real there are different ways in which we can respond to the situation we are currently in.

 

There are thoughts that you think when you are suffering pain or anything else which is uncomfortable.  We might not have any control over the suffering but we do have some control over what we think when we are suffering.  It won't make the suffering stop but it can help you to get through it.