Estman: reducing Anafranil, withdrawal symptoms

[Estman]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:18 PM, savinggrace said:

Hi Estman,

I responded to you on Marie's thread again.  I left it there as Marie was talking about B12 testing, but you will see my post if you go there. (sorry Marie that I keep making this mistake)  I can't seem to copy and paste it here and I don't want to write it all out again.  Sld co go to Marie's thread and read what I wrote.

 

I have done a ton of research and gone to a lot of doctors before figuring this out for myself.  The bottom line, though, for many of us ANY kind of change can cause disruptive and painful withdrawal symptoms and that includes healthy supplements.  Even though we need them it doesn't mean our brain can handle all the changes.

 

I would caution you to not even take even OTC pain relievers or anything you don't have to in this time of instability.  As far as my use of B12, I titrated up to a tolerable, but not easy dose of it.  I self-inject because of gut problems.  I am not absorbing needed nutrients.  That doesn't mean you have to.

 

Your B12 and folate are low but since you have done some supplementing, perhaps you should back off a while and try to stabilize.  You have too many variables going on here.  Believe me, I understand!  I really do.  That said, once sensitized our brains (those of us who are not so lucky) do not adjust well to change, especially supplements that are known to be stimulating.

 

Pay particular attention to the fact that testing B12 while taking B12 is an aritificial measure.  It has no correlation to what is actually usable by your body.  At one point my serum B12 was over 1000 but when tested properly, I was found to be grossly deficient.  I was not supplementing at the time of this high B12 test.  Then over the years my B12 plummeted to 112 and I got tested properly, before supplementing began and I found out I have a functional B12 deficiency.  It took me a long time to get the courage to actively supplement as I struggle so much to taper as I am so sick.  That said, my MMA and homocysteine put me at high risk for a heart attack or stroke so I got pretty motivated after that.

 

I  cannot say that I feel better yet.  My drugs, my constant withdrawal state and my poor nutrition have depleted my body so much.  That said, I was headed for a stroke or heart attack if I didn't start the supplements.

 

I went two years with all this knowledge before I started the injections.  My opinion, (not medical but based on the school of hard knocks) is to lay off all unnecessary supplementing and OTC drugs,  eat the best diet you can (google foods with high B12 and folate), exercise, and maybe stop tapering for a while until you feel much better.  

 

B12 and folic acid are generally supplemented together but you could take much less methylated folate than you are and likely help yourself (eventually) I think stopping the B vitamins for a while may help you quite a bit...not forever...just until you are more stable.   Better yet, if your digestion is good eat a lot of green leafy vegetables and other high folate foods.

 

Grace

Hi Grace,

It is now 22 days since my last dose reduction
There has been an increase in depression in the last week, but tolerably
I thought I'd try some vitamin B12 again yesterday
I did it in the morning. In addition, I ate some chocolate candy in the first half of the day and had a cake after lunch.
I forgot to hold back and worked too hard
After lunch there was a lot of fatigue
Then the general very bad feeling, apathy, depression.
Along with the bad feeling, there was great anxiety and in the evening there was despair with nausea
There was constant depression and despair all night long.
Like such huge compulsions and agitation.
It's hard to be bad and vomit
I took another half tablet of Levomepromazine and one tablet of Betaloc (Metropolol) in the evening, but they did not help me fall asleep.
I only fell asleep in the morning and probably slept for 1-2 hours.
We otherwise had a high pressure, 772mm Hg, but it started to rain last night and the air pressure dropped to 754mm / Hg this morning.
Today it is also very bad all day, there is confusion and nausea.
Last week has been a wave but so far it has been tolerable
Now especially extreme.
Maybe taking B12 and eating it made things worse?
Maybe the blood pressure medicine will make it worse.
It's like a constant desire to escape or seek help, call, and so on
The last time was as bad exactly a month ago as it was 22 days after the reduction

[savinggrace]

Hi Estman,

 

I am sorry I did not see this until today....7 days later.  I have not quite figured out how to get email notifications from people I follow.   I used to get every post.

 

Do you know that you need B12? Are you deficient?  If not,  would definitely stop taking that.  You can get B12 from meat and other food sources and it will be less activating.  Believe me, I let myself get severely deficient because of this.  I now (very reluctantly) have to do injections but I use them sparingly, as they disrupt every process in my body especially sleep. 

 

Little secret...I eat chocolate sparingly...less than 1/2 oz/day but it is my ONLY indulgence.  My diet is so limited and all I drink is water.  I don't think the chocolate affects my sleep.  There is caffeine in it, but very little.  I believe it lifts my mood.  I eat very dark chocolate though so no sugar or milk in it and a tiny bit.

 

I often only sleep in the morning too. I have had a disrupted sleep cycle my whole life.  I am trying to raise my vitamin D level now by sitting in the sun and it, too, has really disrupted what little circadian rhythm I have.

 

Sorry for the delay in responding.  Estman.  wishing you well!

 

Grace

 

 

[Estman]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:19 PM, savinggrace said:

Hi Estman,

 

I am sorry I did not see this until today....7 days later.  I have not quite figured out how to get email notifications from people I follow.   I used to get every post.

 

Do you know that you need B12? Are you deficient?  If not,  would definitely stop taking that.  You can get B12 from meat and other food sources and it will be less activating.  Believe me, I let myself get severely deficient because of this.  I now (very reluctantly) have to do injections but I use them sparingly, as they disrupt every process in my body especially sleep. 

 

Little secret...I eat chocolate sparingly...less than 1/2 oz/day but it is my ONLY indulgence.  My diet is so limited and all I drink is water.  I don't think the chocolate affects my sleep.  There is caffeine in it, but very little.  I believe it lifts my mood.  I eat very dark chocolate though so no sugar or milk in it and a tiny bit.

 

I often only sleep in the morning too. I have had a disrupted sleep cycle my whole life.  I am trying to raise my vitamin D level now by sitting in the sun and it, too, has really disrupted what little circadian rhythm I have.

 

Sorry for the delay in responding.  Estman.  wishing you well!

 

Grace

 

 

Hi Grace,

I have not taken vitamin B12 anymore
It also seemed to cause me great anxiety
I don't know what my B12 level is right now
I also try to be in the sun every day to get vitamin D.
I reduced my dose 4 days ago by 6%
On the third day, stomach upset occurred
Towards the evening of the third day (yesterday) there was restlessness and feeling like anger, although there is no reason
There are very confused dreams at night and there has been a lot of fatigue, confusion and restlessness since this morning
It is also like negative compulsions-fear
There is also nausea.
The most disturbing is the confusion.
Everything is beautiful, the weather is spring, but there are no other big problems.
How I hate this drug and regret that I never started taking it
Have you finished reducing your drugs?
If you reduced your medication then how often did it happen?
Did you develop withdrawal symptoms soon, about 2-3 days after reduction?
 

[dangerous7]

Hello fellow Clomipramine users,

 

I don't have access to a compounding pharmacy here in Bangalore, India. Can you suggest a way to obtain .5mg Clomipramine. Here, I can buy 10mg tablets. Can I crush a tablet and take 1/20 of the powder? I do have a digital scale which can measure as low as .5gm

 

Or do I have make a liquid out of the tablet and use a syringe to obtain .5mg worth of Clomipramine?

 

Thank you.

[Estman]

2 hours ago, dangerous7 said:

Hello fellow Clomipramine users,

 

I don't have access to a compounding pharmacy here in Bangalore, India. Can you suggest a way to obtain .5mg Clomipramine. Here, I can buy 10mg tablets. Can I crush a tablet and take 1/20 of the powder? I do have a digital scale which can measure as low as .5gm

 

Or do I have make a liquid out of the tablet and use a syringe to obtain .5mg worth of Clomipramine?

 

Thank you.

Hello,

Making an aqueous solution is probably the most accurate
I've had small doses in the pharmacy, I haven't done it myself

[savinggrace]

9 hours ago, Estman said:

Hi Grace,

I have not taken vitamin B12 anymore
It also seemed to cause me great anxiety
I don't know what my B12 level is right now
I also try to be in the sun every day to get vitamin D.
I reduced my dose 4 days ago by 6%
On the third day, stomach upset occurred
Towards the evening of the third day (yesterday) there was restlessness and feeling like anger, although there is no reason
There are very confused dreams at night and there has been a lot of fatigue, confusion and restlessness since this morning
It is also like negative compulsions-fear
There is also nausea.
The most disturbing is the confusion.
Everything is beautiful, the weather is spring, but there are no other big problems.
How I hate this drug and regret that I never started taking it
Have you finished reducing your drugs?
If you reduced your medication then how often did it happen?
Did you develop withdrawal symptoms soon, about 2-3 days after reduction?
 

Hi Estman,

Sounds like you are doing a good job by cutting out the vitamin B supplements and getting your Vit D from the sun.  I can't understand from your signature exactly what your current dose of anafranil is, but given all the symptoms you cited above, I would encourage you NOT to set a date for each cut, but to wait for when you feel more stable.

 

I have been tapering for more than 10 years. I started on doses of drugs about 1/2-2/3 of the doses I am on now.  Unfortunately, iatrogenic illness, coupled w/ very stressful life circumstances, genetics (drug metabolism) and chronically poor health since birth all collided and caught up with me.  I stopped tapering on any schedule, focusing instead on the one drug I think I can eventually cut out and may be doing harm to my liver, and accepting that I will likely not be off the drugs before I die, but I will die trying to mitigate the harm.  Frankly, Estman, my health is just so poor I can't take any more stressors and, as you know, tapering is super stressful on the mind and body! At 88# and severely malnourished, I just can't inflict any more harm on my body and I refuse to be a guinea pig at a psych hospital.  It won't go well, and I am certain I will end up worse off.  I write this, not to plant any other thoughts in anyone else's heads...I believe my journey MAY be somewhat unique and that the unfortunate toll the drugs I took before I knew better had already done permanent physical damage.

 

It is hard for me not to compare my (lack of) successful tapering to the people here who get off.  I have to accept that I am, and continue to do, the best I can and I try to share what I have learned along the way.  I am 100% certain that there is no other path for me than the unsavory path I am taking.  It is a long, arduous and lonely path but I try to stay on it and hold it the best I can.

 

Grace

 

 

[Estman]

On 2/21/2022 at 12:27 AM, Altostrata said:

What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with dosages? How do you feel before and after taking Anafranil? How has your symptom pattern changed in the last month?

Hello

I have a question like this:
Can Anafranil prolong the metabolism of a blood pressure medicine, for example?
I usually don't take blood pressure or heart rate medications
I've sometimes done that how bad it is to be
I was on my dose for 32 days, I generally felt normal and I decided to cut it a little
I cut  Anafranil by about 6% 6 days ago
On the third to fourth day, there was a very bad reaction and great panic anxiety.
Also, my blood pressure went too high and I took 1 tablet of Telmisartan.
However, this did not work quickly and increased the pulse even faster.
I also took another Betaloc tablet.
The next day the blood pressure was no longer as high but the pulse was too fast
He no longer took the medicine for blood pressure or the medicine for the pulse yesterday.
At the same time, there was a very strong tension in the head behind his eyes in the evening. I couldn't even watch television.
There has been a constant headache and a very bad feeling since the night.
Blood pressure is still rather low 120/80 today.
(I usually have 130-135)
The head is very dizzy and the headache persists. The mood is depressed.
I'm just being physically ill, which in turn raises my anxiety.
I have taken both Ibumax and Paracetamol but they do not relieve much.
You also don't want to take them because they can make your depression worse.
I have a feeling that if I take Telmisartan 40mg  to lower my blood pressure then 2-3 days after that my blood pressure is too low and my headache often.
What should the half-life of Telmisartan be in 24 hours?
The head feels like the blood pressure is too low, the head is squeezing, it hurts, sometimes it feels nauseous.
Could it be that Anafranil prolongs the residence time of Telmisartan?
I usually feel so bad when there is a sudden drop in air pressure and there are rainy weather.
I hope it doesn't bother you.

[Altostrata]

If you take too much of a drug or drugs to reduce blood pressure, you can get a paradoxical reaction of blood pressure increase instead.

 

Do you often take a random blood pressure drug or two? I'm sorry, I cannot even begin to follow your drug experiment. If you want to take random drugs, do your own research. Please do not tag me with questions about them. Thank you.

 

 

[Estman]

28 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

If you take too much of a drug or drugs to reduce blood pressure, you can get a paradoxical reaction of blood pressure increase instead.

 

Do you often take a random blood pressure drug or two? I'm sorry, I cannot even begin to follow your drug experiment. If you want to take random drugs, do your own research. Please do not tag me with questions about them. Thank you.

 

 

I usually don't have blood pressure problems and I don't take them often.
When I have a wave and severe anxiety, my blood pressure gets high and I often have headaches.
Sometimes there has been a headache in the neck due to high blood pressure or heart rate.

But I can't take these drugs all the time.
I tried for three weeks but there were bad side effects.
I have tried 3-4 medicines for blood pressure but they are not suitable.
They lower blood pressure too much and often cause headaches themselves.
I often have a headache when the air pressure outside drops or the weather changes.
I'm confused then, once my blood pressure is too high, I'm taking the medicine but it doesn't work quickly
The next day is too low blood pressure and several days to be bad.
It seems to me that they also make depression worse
I found on the internet that one blood pressure drug called Katopril should fit people with depression.
It should lower your blood pressure and also your mood.
It also has no fatigue-causing effect.

But I don't know if that's true, maybe not.
I don't need to lower my blood pressure all the time
That's what makes it complicated
Unfortunately I couldn't get it, couldn't try it.
When I have a migraine-like headache, there is often a change in the weather.
The headache causes a great deal of anxiety and I have not been able to resolve the situation.
Thank you for the answer.

[savinggrace]

Estman,

 

Just read about your blood pressure struggles.  As stated your blood pressures don't sound alarmingly high or low.  For perspective, I indeed have low blood pressure and have for a very long time.  It runs, on average, 90/60 but it has gone lower that that...in the 80's/high 40's.  It goes extra low if I have a virus or unusual stress.  I found that taking my blood pressure multiple times a day just made me worry about it...which affected my blood pressure.

 

I agree with Alto.  I think these blood pressure meds can cause paradoxical problems.  How about you just not take your blood pressure for a few days?  I think mixing all these drugs and taking them sporadically can indeed be affecting your blood pressure.  That said, the symptoms you list can be attributed to all sorts of things including anxiety, which affects blood pressure.

 

Food for thought.  My blood pressure has been about 90/60 for years.  It is very unusual for me to get much higher.  Drink enough water.  Maybe a little extra salt if you feel low but mostly try not to think about it.

 

Grace

[Estman]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:28 AM, savinggrace said:

Estman,

 

Just read about your blood pressure struggles.  As stated your blood pressures don't sound alarmingly high or low.  For perspective, I indeed have low blood pressure and have for a very long time.  It runs, on average, 90/60 but it has gone lower that that...in the 80's/high 40's.  It goes extra low if I have a virus or unusual stress.  I found that taking my blood pressure multiple times a day just made me worry about it...which affected my blood pressure.

 

I agree with Alto.  I think these blood pressure meds can cause paradoxical problems.  How about you just not take your blood pressure for a few days?  I think mixing all these drugs and taking them sporadically can indeed be affecting your blood pressure.  That said, the symptoms you list can be attributed to all sorts of things including anxiety, which affects blood pressure.

 

Food for thought.  My blood pressure has been about 90/60 for years.  It is very unusual for me to get much higher.  Drink enough water.  Maybe a little extra salt if you feel low but mostly try not to think about it.

 

Grace

Hi Crace,

You're probably right
For me, the withdrawal process creates compulsions and phobias
I am also very sensitive to weather changes
I don't remember that being the case before
When there is a low pressure and high humidity, there is often an immediate migraine-like headache
As if a depressing feeling in the head, the mood is particularly depressed and anxious
Otherwise my blood pressure is more or less normal.
However, during waves, anxiety often goes high and then there is a fear of how to get it down.
Today, for example, I did half a day of physical work in the garden.
I built a planting box out of logs
By lunch I was, as usual, very tired
I ate around 1pm and then tried to rest.
There have now been a pulse of 105 beats per minute for several hours.
My blood pressure is more or less normal for me 135/81
Although I've just been lying down.
I'm very tired too
I shouldn't have heart disease.
I am tempted to take Metropolol to lower my heart rate, but I will not.
There is such a feeling of fatigue even though I acted in moderation
Did you have the same treatment with amitriptyline?
Blood pressure fluctuations and a fast pulse?
After a couple of hours of work, all my pains and stiff backs and joints are painful.
I wonder if energy and strength will ever be restored when I get rid of this substance? (currently 11mg)

[savinggrace]

Estman,

 

I was on amitriptyline for almost 20 years and my heart rate was always 100+.  Now it runs in the 70's.  I have not been making a connection between the weather and how I feel but I seldom feel better so there's that...

 

Good job not reaching for the Metropolol!  Positive self-talk instead of reaching for a rescue remedy is always a good thing.

 

Take care.

Grace

[Estman]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:35 AM, savinggrace said:

Estman,

 

I was on amitriptyline for almost 20 years and my heart rate was always 100+.  Now it runs in the 70's.  I have not been making a connection between the weather and how I feel but I seldom feel better so there's that...

 

Good job not reaching for the Metropolol!  Positive self-talk instead of reaching for a rescue remedy is always a good thing.

 

Take care.

Grace

Hi Grace,

I have a hard wave for 4-5 days
Blood pressure rose again with great anxiety yesterday.
There was a very disturbing headache and a fast pulse
Unfortunately, there are constant seizures of despair and tremendous despair
I took 1 tablet of the blood pressure medicine Amlodipine last night
Later the anxiety became even greater and I took 3mg of levomepromazine.
Panic and anxiety kept growing. Also, the pulse was 90-100 beats all night.
I got to sleep maybe a few hours because I just can't calm down.
Could it be that Amlodipine (a calcium channel blocker) itself may increase 'tearing and agitation'.
Today, there is a constant fight-escape fear reaction and the desire to vomit.
The newsletter says that it can cause mood swings and anxiety?
When I panic and wave I think it will never end and I will die
I can't think rationally, there are compulsions and thoughts.

 

[savinggrace]

Hi Estman,

 

I am sorry to hear this. I hope you are not planning to make any cuts for a while. 
 

I know these horrible waves of anxiety are brutal. Distraction is the best way to work through them in my opinion.   Since the blood pressure medicine didn’t help at all, I think that is reason to not keep trying it. How high did your blood pressure go?

 

There are many links to non-drug techniques for coping with panic and anxiety. 
 

Remember you need to be stable to taper. Your brain is playing catch-up now. Time is the best remedy. 
 

Grace

[Estman]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:42 PM, getofflex said:

If it is working, you will feel a decrease in WD symptoms.  Give it about a week.  It takes about that long for it to get into your system and register with your brain.  

 

If it makes things worse, your WD symptoms will feel worse.  It's great that you are keeping a personal journal.  I've been keeping one for several months, and it has helped me to see what things trigger my WD symptoms.  I've found that I get triggered by MSG in food, thunderstorms, sudden weather shifts, major stress, and toxic people.  

I have 29 days since the last reduction
About a week has passed since the last wave.
There was less depression yesterday than in previous days
I did light work and editing.
Feeling relatively tolerable in the first half of the day
We had a thunderstorm around noon
A thunderstorm set fire to the house a few miles away
It rained hard for about an hour and a half
Towards the evening I began to feel very excruciating fatigue-weakness
As if overworked.
I had very bad dreams at night
Even today, it feels like nausea
The whole body is weak and every little effort is hard
Can't stand stress at all.
It's like a wave
The last time we had a thunderstorm was a long time ago.
Can sunburn cause fatigue and nausea?
The thunder lasted for about a few hours, later the weather was beautiful again.
Feeling very bad so far.

[Estman]

On 10/16/2021 at 11:46 AM, belikeabamboo said:

  

Hello!

 

First of all I want to thank all the beautiful heros around here, who share their storys, it helped me a lot to read the success storys again and again to stay focussed and motivated, to keep hope and not give up during the last 2,5 years.

 

I am 35, female. Last friday I hit the 18 months mark after coming off Escitalopram for the third time in April 2020. Most people, especially professionals doubt that the physical and mental symptoms I experience are due to coming off Escitalopram and think it is all in my head. I am very exhausted of the horrible symptoms and having to fight all the time for being supported or even believed. Probably loosing my job and getting no financial support any more at the end of this month, the pressure becomes higher and higher and I am close to giving in and going back in the psychiatric system...and back on meds. I don't know what to do at the moment and hope to get some helpful advise here.

 

Here is my whole history especially of the last about 3 years of struggling:

 

- On holiday in Spain in 2011, while on a city tour, I had a panic attack after feeling faint. After that, I developed agoraphobia with panic attacks – something that has become manageable after psychotherapy.

 

- Having sat the medical exam in 2012, I worked in internal medicine in a hospital setting from 2015 to 2016, with enormous workload and pressures, constant understaffing and a feeling of being out of my depth and overwhelmed while also having incredibly high expectations of myself and my care for the patients. Having reached exhaustion, the panic attacks returned 12 months into the job, and I left.

 

- I restarted psychotherapy, and in September 2016 started taking 15mg Escitalopram (prescribed by a psychiatrist)

 

- I stabilized quickly and took a job as an occupational GP in a very large company in November 2016. I enjoyed that job, felt valued by my colleagues and managers and did’nt feel overwhelmed. It gave me a good work-life balance, and I started volunteering at a charity offering medical support to homeless people, something I thoroughly enjoyed. I had a great relationship, supportive family and friends, enjoyed being active and sporty.

 

- In July 2017, after about 9 months, I attempted to come off the drug, having discussed it with the psychiatrist, tapering by 5mg/ per week over 2 weeks. After that, I felt unwell, was restless, anxious and had stomach issues. The psychiatrist said this was a sign I wasn’t stable enough and 15mg Escitalopram was reinstated. I stabilized and felt better.

 

- In summer 2018, I made a second attempt to come off the drug, but tapered much more slowly. Having reached 10mg we celebrated a beautiful wedding in August 2018, and I then reduced further to 8mg before going on honeymoon in September 2018. A couple of days later I began experiencing panic attacks again, along with exhaustion. I reduced further to 6mg, but then went back up to 15mg because I felt too bad, following psychiatrist advice. I stabilized again.

 

- In March 2019, I attempted tapering for a third time, reducing by 5mg/week over 2 weeks, because the psychiatrist thought the slow tapering might be introducing a psychological issue that was making me feel worse. During the tapering process I started experiencing symptoms, and 3 days after I reached 0mg I was completely floored, with massive physical and mental symptoms. I was unable to work for 3 months, having never been off sick in the 2.5 years before.

 

- There was no improvement after 6 weeks, and so after taking advice from 2 psychiatrists, I started taking the medication again – increasing the dosage by 1mg every 2 days. I had to stop that at 6mg because my symptoms became too severe.

 

- I found a psychiatrist in Berlin who is aware of withdrawal issues, and he recommended to reduce to 2.5mg, which I did in July 2019, the aim being for me to stabilize. At that dosage, I was able to work reduced hours (20-24 hours/week), but it was a constant battle and I felt unwell all the time.

 

- I began to think that maybe I had developed an intolerance to the medication, and so after months of no improvement, I began to taper off it again, following the Horowitz-paper, and reaching 0mg in April 2020. The symptoms got continuously worse as I tapered and got more severe when I reached 0mg. I have been unable to return to work since July 2020.

 

This is a list of my symptoms – although their intensity and the range I may be experiencing on any given day varies. While I never experienced all of them, I haven’t felt “normal” or really well.

 

 - autonomic dysregulation: stomach and gut issues (nausea, reflux, stomach cramps, abdominal tension, gut-hyperperistaltic, flatulence and many more), incontinence (in 2019, I wet myself 3 times during the night), difficulty breathing, orthostatic dysregulation, palpitations/irregular heartbeats, sweating

- adrenalin rushes/overstimulation of the autonomic nervous system, even smallest stimuli can lead to a fight and flight response

- emotional dysregulation: crying fits, extreme mood swings, overwhelming emotions

- extreme anxiety: general, agoraphobic, social, paranoia (can’t stand someone walking behind me, feel observed and judged all the time)

- depressive symptoms: feeling extremely down, hopeless, desperate, coming and going randomly

- myalgia (legs, back, neck, shoulders, arms, whole body)

- neuralgia (toes, fingers, earlobes, shoulders, neck…)

- headache, neuropathic face, jaw and toothache

- abdominal pain

- tingling paresthesia (legs, neck, head)

- trouble regulating temperature (very sensitive to heat or cold, feeling very hot, shivering with cold), hot flushes, hot skin and feet

- extreme sweats at night

- trouble swallowing

- extreme sensitivity to light, sound, movement and smells, quickly overwhelmed with sensory input, driving or cycling has become difficult, often impossible

- dizziness, vertigo

- vivid dreams, horrible nightmares, oversleeping

- restlessness, agitation

- panic, flush, palpitaions, sweating, muscleache in the morning 

- eye-issues (trouble focusing, burning, dry feeling)

- ear-issues (pain, sore feeling)

- issues with perception (flickering lights, colour distortion, static items appear to be moving, the floor goes blurry, sounds where there are none)

- depersonalisation, derealisation

- extreme exhaustion, lack of energy and strength

- brain fog, confusion, desorientation, like being on a drug (not off)

- cognitive issues with memory, concentration, finding or writing words, reading, understanding

- flu-like symptoms

- trouble regulating stress (feel overwhelmed quickly)

- trouble calming my thoughts, very intense, ruminating thoughts, interrupting cognition

- flashbacks (to all kinds of situations, some totally banale)

- travel sickness

 

Trigger that provoke/intensify symptoms:

 

- stimuli of any kind, such as light, sound, movement, noice

- multitasking

- driving (also being a passenger)

- eating

- physical activity (exercise almost impossible and has been for months, but even walks or getting dressed can overstimulate the autonimic nervous system and lead to a fight and flight response)

- screen time

- reading

- being on the phone

- music

- conversation, especially talking myself

- being in the sun

- period and ovulation

- social contact of any kind

- napping during the day

 

Of course, there have been issues in my life along the way, if that was not the case I would not have started taking Escitalopram in 2016. I struggle with anxiety, but it is something I am addressing. What I have been living through for the last 2,5 years does not compare to anything I have previously experienced, and most of the symptoms I experience I never experienced before I started to take the SSRI. The anxiety I feel since tapering is extreme, complete terror. It is, to be honest, hell. Since April 2020, it has got worse, and I alternate between days where I can cope and do things like take care of the household, go for walks or go to the supermarket, to days where I have to rest a lot, and days where I am house- and bedbound for most of the day. I have found nothing that eases the symptoms, having tried a whole range of things from homeopathy and acupuncture to food supplements (fish oil, magnesium). I meditate daily, do Yin Yoga a number of times a week, eat healthy, don’t drink alcohol or have caffeine, and try to walk out in the fresh air whenever possible. I sleep and rest plenty, but nothing has led to a lasting easing of the symptoms so far.

 

I have had a neurological checkup, including an MRI, have had my bloods and heart checked, all results were great.

 

After all this time, I can’t help but feel huge doubt whether the path I have chosen – accept and hang in there – is the right one. I was convinced I could live without the drug, but 3 years of fighting coming off and the intensity of the symptoms have taken me to the edge of what I can suffer through. My goal to lead a normal life feels a very long way off. I am terrified that I have misjudged this and overestimated my mental health and am questioning myself and my decisions constantly.

 

I am hoping that with your experience, you can give me your objective assessment of whether this indeed is withdrawal, and if I am right in that, if there is anything that might help with the symptoms or move the healing process forward.

 

Thank you in advance from my deep heart for your time and advice. 🙏

 

 

 

 

Hello,

I have a lot of symptoms on my list.
It is particularly disturbing at the moment
- physical activity (training is almost impossible and has been for several months, but even walking or dressing can stimulate the autonomic nervous system and cause a fight and flight)

I wonder if this symptom will ever pass?
Do people also have a sense of energy and resilience?

[Estman]

13 minutes ago, Ninabird said:

@belikeabamboo

Good morning.  I’ve read through your thread. I’m so sorry you are going through this hell. How have you been this week? Have you had any windows? 
keeping you in my daily prayers. 
Ninabird

Hi Ninabird,

I went on a small trip last Sunday
We stayed in another city for 3 days at the Spa Hotel
There was a bright light on Sunday and also a magnetic storm
I had an extreme migraine-like headache in the evening
We also had a full moon then.
Strange, I have become extremely sensitive to weather changes
Especially for air pressure and temperature.
I have been reducing my antidepressant for the last 2.5 years
It is now the case that if a low-pressure walk occurs, the symptoms immediately worsen - the depression worsens.
Stormy-windy weather is also severe.
Yesterday, there was less depression over a long period of time
I lingered for half a day and then I felt normal.
In the afternoon, however, there was a sudden thunderstorm and torrential rain
A thunderstorm hit a house near a few miles away
It burned down.
In the afternoon, however, I suddenly experienced enormous fatigue
Unfortunately, this has been the case quite often
I can no longer do physically and mentally strenuous things
This is followed by a rapid pulse and extreme fatigue.
Along with exhaustion, there is usually great anxiety and nausea
The night was a very confused and frightening dream.
Is it a dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system?
This was not the case before taking antidepressants.
I can't make a sprint anymore.
I wonder if this dysfunction later improves-returns to normal?
Usually when I reduce my dose, I get 3-5 days of great fatigue and exhaustion.
Today is 29 days.
Even the slightest stress or physical exertion triggers this fight-escape reaction

[Ninabird]

I’m so sorry for your suffering. Do you have good support system? Reading your threads makes me want to hug you and tell you everything will be ok. You will heal. It just takes a very long time sometimes. 
 

Im here if you ever need a friend. 
 

🌺Ninabird

[Estman]

27 minutes ago, Ninabird said:

I’m so sorry for your suffering. Do you have good support system? Reading your threads makes me want to hug you and tell you everything will be ok. You will heal. It just takes a very long time sometimes. 
 

Im here if you ever need a friend. 
 

🌺Ninabird

 It helps me when someone says that a symptom goes away
Because the seeds last a long time and are very excruciating
I would like to do things again as before.
When I have a wave, I feel like it won't pass
Will this exhaustion-fatigue syndrome definitely go away if I don't take an antidepressant again in the future?
Thank you for your support!

[getofflex]

Previous post moved to your intro topic to keep your history all in one place.  Please post questions and discussion about your situation in this one thread, to avoid confusion and duplication of efforts.  Thank you.  

 

11 hours ago, Estman said:

I have 29 days since the last reduction

Reduction of what? I don't see any information for any drug changes for the year 2022 in your drug signature.  Please update your drug signature for all drugs and drug changes.  When you post about drug changes, please include the drug name and dose.  Thank you.  

 

11 hours ago, Estman said:

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by getofflex

[getofflex]

11 hours ago, Estman said:

Can sunburn cause fatigue and nausea?

yes

[Estman]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:55 PM, Altostrata said:

If you take too much of a drug or drugs to reduce blood pressure, you can get a paradoxical reaction of blood pressure increase instead.

 

Do you often take a random blood pressure drug or two? I'm sorry, I cannot even begin to follow your drug experiment. If you want to take random drugs, do your own research. Please do not tag me with questions about them. Thank you.

 

 

Hi ,

Can Anafranil be given liquid in a pharmacy? (the smallest tablet is 10mg)
So far, I've had small sachets made and just shaken them on the tongue and drank water.
Now that I'm running out of lower doses, smaller reductions would be needed
I probably can't make that liquid myself
Could a pharmacy make it into a bottle for a month, for example?
And you could take insulin with a syringe, for example, and make a micro-tapering from there?

[Altostrata]

You'd have to ask compounding pharmacies.

[belikeabamboo]

On 6/17/2022 at 3:47 PM, Estman said:

Hello,

I have a lot of symptoms on my list.
It is particularly disturbing at the moment
- physical activity (training is almost impossible and has been for several months, but even walking or dressing can stimulate the autonomic nervous system and cause a fight and flight)

I wonder if this symptom will ever pass?
Do people also have a sense of energy and resilience?

@Estman I don't understand your post, I am sorry! What is your question?

 

Please post your personal things with other members in your thread, otherwise i becomes pretty chaotic. Thank you! 😊

[ChessieCat]

12 hours ago, Estman said:

Hi ,

Can Anafranil be given liquid in a pharmacy? (the smallest tablet is 10mg)
So far, I've had small sachets made and just shaken them on the tongue and drank water.
Now that I'm running out of lower doses, smaller reductions would be needed
I probably can't make that liquid myself
Could a pharmacy make it into a bottle for a month, for example?
And you could take insulin with a syringe, for example, and make a micro-tapering from there?

 

Please carefully read through Post #1 of this topic.  There is information in there about making a liquid.

 

tips-for-tapering-off-clomipramine-anafranil

 

[Ninabird]

 

Would you please post the conversation with @Estman in his thread? Thank you for that! 😊

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, Ninabird said:

 

Would you please post the conversation with @Estman in his thread? Thank you for that! 😊

 

I've moved the posts from belikeabamboo's Intro topic.

[Estman]

 

Hei,

I have a question like this:
After the effort, my heart rate stays high for several hours
Also, there is often a pulse fast at night when there is a wave of anxiety
Sometimes I have taken Betaloc Zoki (metropolis)
I took half a tablet on Thursday night, 12.5mg, and the same amount on Friday night.
Initially, the heart rate was still the same fast, but only dropped the next day
Did not take yesterday
Last night was again a very slow pulse, about 55-60 times per minute
There is also extreme exhaustion now
Does the antidepressant prolong the duration of the beta-blocker?
Can it cause a lot of exhaustion-fatigue 2 days later, for example?

Does anyone have experience?

[Altostrata]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:58 PM, Altostrata said:

I can't fix reactions from drug experiments. You just have to let them go away and stop experimenting. Please don't tag me again about this.

 

[Ariel]

@Estman

 

@savinggrace wrote a message to you a while ago in the akathisia topic but the tag didn't go through, so just in case you didn't get it the first time, I'm reposting it for you to have here: 

 

On 4/29/2022 at 10:24 PM, savinggrace said:

Estman

 

My best advice to you would be not to try and manage all of your symptoms with a pill or a supplement.  Try to go "through it" instead of around it.  When there are too many variables (1/2 tablet of this, some of that....) you really don't know what is causing what.  Often just letting your brain settle down will calm things like akathisia.  But you have to be patient and wait.  Often times, meds and supplements can cause high blood pressure.   The instability caused by the stress of so much change will not help.  Try looking for natural (non-pill or supplement) ways to ease your symptoms.  Be careful with your diet, get some gentle exercise, try to avoid avoidable stress, and sleep when you can.  Accepting that you aren't going to get a normal night's sleep is probably best.  The thing is when you take these temporary remedies, your body reacts to them when they leave your body and wants more.  This causes a viscous cycle that makes tapering so much more difficult.

 

I use heat, ice, distraction, exercise (gentle), prayers, meditation as my only remedies.  I have a lot of chronic pain 24/7 and gut problems and insomnia as well.  I never take anything but these darn drugs I haven't been able to get off.  Even "natural" supplements and foods interact with the blood levels of your medicine and destabilize you.  There is no remedy for withdrawal except time.

 

Grace

 

[Estman]

4 hours ago, Ariel said:

@Estman

 

@savinggrace wrote a message to you a while ago in the akathisia topic but the tag didn't go through, so just in case you didn't get it the first time, I'm reposting it for you to have here: 

 

 

Many thanks Ariel!

[Estman]

On 6/19/2022 at 2:12 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

Please carefully read through Post #1 of this topic.  There is information in there about making a liquid.

 

tips-for-tapering-off-clomipramine-anafranil

 

A cholinergic rebound occurs when weaning off a tricyclic antidepressant (Anafranil)
Somewhere someone described that Hypersin A dietary supplement helped him
Is there any more information about this mini?
Is there anything that alleviates the cholinergic rebound?

[ChessieCat]

8 hours ago, Estman said:

Somewhere someone described that Hypersin A dietary supplement helped him

 

I think you spelled in wrong:

 

 

[Estman]

6 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I think you spelled in wrong:

 

 

Yes, I thought so.
Unfortunately, there is no more information, did it really help?
There is no further information.
This concern is then specific to tricyclic antidepressants

[Estman]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:38 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

I think you spelled in wrong:

 

 

It has been 12 days since the last reduction (5-6%) of Clomipramine
The day before yesterday I ate potatoes with mushroom sauce (made with milk) for lunch
I didn't eat too much
An hour later great weakness set in, and digestion stopped
It was a very heavy feeling and it lasted for about 6-7 hours, then it eased.
On the same day, there were also rain clouds, rising humidity and thunder
The next day, ie yesterday, the digestion was initially normal.
Unfortunately, I ate two breads with smoked salmon at 20:00
An hour later, I had gas again, but I was able to fall asleep.
I woke up at 1am with a lot of diarrhea
After that I drank one glass of water with smecta powder because I felt very nauseous.
I didn't throw up but I kept wanting to
I could sleep very intermittently, I probably woke up 4 times during the night
Since this morning the nausea continues to be very bothersome with anxiety
I don't feel like eating either.
Today there has also been a strong thunder and sometimes it has rained. The humidity is about 85%
I didn't have such digestive problems last week
I don't know what it could be?

[Estman]

I have already had digestive problems for 4-5 days

The last reduction was 17 days ago (5%)

During the first 10-11 days there were no digestive problems
I can't eat normally anymore.
If I eat a little dairy product, I have diarrhea and nausea for several days.
If you don't eat dairy products, you also get flatulence-gas and nausea

if I don't eat, it feels like a stomach cramp and nausea, if I eat, it's better at first, but 6-7 hours later, I have a lot of flatulence and a feeling of heaviness in the stomach
Digestion seems to stop.
I don't know what to do, is it some kind of gluten intolerance, lactose intolerance or some other problem.
It scares me a lot
What to do?