phenylbot: 6 months in Nardil / phenelzine withdrawal

[DataGuy]

Thanks for the update @phenylbot. Are you able to do anything else to help symptoms other than walking? How much are you currently walking? Are you tired afterwards? Do you feel better at the end of the walk? 

 

Sorry to hear symptoms have been getting worse. I still think it's pretty unlikely you're experiencing klonopin withdrawal. Much more likely an adverse reaction, especially since you've had reactions to much milder things like magnesium and fish oil. 

 

I think the best thing you can do is use coping mechanisms to stabilize symptoms. Distraction with reading, podcasts, movies or TV can help too. Sometimes listening to a podcast or audiobook can help get to sleep at night, as it focuses the mind on something else. Great to hear you got out to see some friends.

 

I hope you feel better soon, @phenylbot!

[phenylbot]

Well, this week takes the cake.  Severe depression and anxiety all day every day. I'm not sure how long I can take this. Fight or flight feeling is perpetual. doesn't help that nardil withdrawal is undocumented. I know now that, if I could go back on, I would.  Think I was on it much too long to expect a life without it. Time will tell my story. Still fighting . 

 

[phenylbot]

The apathy has really shown me a new level of boredom  Don't think it's anhedonia because I still care about people and things. This could possibly be dysphoria and normal in the course of prolonged withdrawal. My sleep has not improved since the clonazepam cessation. It was so much better before the benzo. My appetite is good although I tend to eat too many sweets. Wondering if the decaf coffee could be a problem as i drink quite a bit of it. It's 3 weeks post clonazepam so not sure how that factors in.  I don't get any windows except for feeling a bit better in the evenings. I have a problem with mainstream Psychiatry as they don't acknowledge prolonged withdrawal and suggest I take more pills. Damn they don't even recognize hypersensitivity to these drugs. 

Happy Easter

[phenylbot]

I believe the reason why I'm such a mess these days is that I reached withdrawal tolerance long before I cold turkeyed off the original med. I flopped around like a fish out of water trying to change my life; in the process rejecting all the good things I had. Also I think that I was so emotionally numb that I could not recognize that what I had was all that I needed.  Had I been thinking clearly I'd have tapered off the drug and would be able to deal with the residual effects.

  I wrecked my life beyond repair then cold turkeyed off the drug. Now it's a much steeper slope to get my life back and it's a daunting task. Guess I  learned the entire lesson on why to stay away from psych meds.  Just need to get stronger now and start rebuilding. 

[DataGuy]

I'm just at work, @phenylbot, but I will get back to you a bit later. Your current wave will end, trust me. I tried to reinstate myself when I was around 2 months off, because I'd only slept 2-3 hours every night for 8 weeks and thought I was going to die. Well I had a bad reaction and it made things worse, but I survived, and you will too. A few pills of clonazepam can only do so much damage. It's just going to feel awful for the next little while. Just do what you can for yourself and stay away from drugs and supplements. I wish I had gotten to you sooner. Hang in there and don't lose hope!

[phenylbot]

Thanks Data your optimism is a real inspiration for me to keep working at this.

[DataGuy]

@phenylbot you can definitely still get your life back. You're right though, it's going to be a steep climb and it will take a lot of hard work. But it will be much more rewarding than simply taking a drug to feel marginally better. You are going to learn a lot about yourself in the next few months. Just need to have confidence. You'll have a lot of setbacks but you need to grasp on to the successes. You will learn that you have much more resilience than you ever thought, but you have to ignore the negative feelings that are simply a product of your nervous system being in withdrawal. It will try to tell you everything is terrible and catastrophize every difficulty or failure. But that is just upset biology talking, warping reality. If you work hard, you will find something that helps to ease your symptoms. Keep walking and keep building yourself up and you will feel better.

 

Decaf coffee can often contain some caffeine. I don't know what brand you are drinking, but you may want to just replace it with water. Your system is pretty sensitive right now, so anything that affects the nervous system - even a very small quantity - may cause problems. 

[phenylbot]

Inner restlessness has become extreme and my heart aches . No windows and a feeling of deepening despair. When I lay in bed in the morning trying to catch a bit more sleep; I flop around the like a fish out of water due to the restless feeling. This has got to be a form of akathisia. My life as become a waking nightmare and there is no help for any of this. it gets to the point where deep breathing and calming techniques do nothing to help. Don't think I can cope much longer like this. 

  I've taken no meds or supplements since the clonazepam. My bad reaction to the benzo seemed to have resulted in a worsening of what has always been inner restlessness from the nardil cold turkey. Will this ever get better?  

[DataGuy]

Sorry you are suffering so much, @phenylbot. It will get better. Have you tried exercising to exhaustion? This is what has worked for me. Sometimes breathing and calming didn't work for me either. Exercise (even if just walking) should help though. I kind of think that is what is behind the impetus to move with akathisia...

 

I don't know how much you are sleeping, but getting up and reading or doing something quiet can help. I have tended to go for a walks sometimes when my stomach is bugging me (most nights), although I'm not sure that is recommended. Staying in bed while you can't sleep will likely just make you more miserable. 

 

Here are some tips that may help you with sleep: 

 

[ChessieCat]

9 minutes ago, DataGuy said:

Staying in bed while you can't sleep will likely just make you more miserable. 

 

I agree with this.  I have noticed when I have difficulty sleeping that even the feel of the sheet fabric and the way my nightie has folds in it drives me nuts (actually I've just thought of a solution to the second one!).

[phenylbot]

Long road continues. Been feeling very depressed and it is the prominent symptom  these days. It may have to do with my insomnia and inability to stop ruminating. It's so hard to be motivated and think positively when depression sets in. Hoping it's a wave and will pass.

 

[DataGuy]

Yes, tough haul, @phenylbot. Did you have some improvement since your last post? "Long road continues" as bad as it is, sounds better than what was happening last time. I hope you are able to settle into a routine and get progressively more comfortable.

[phenylbot]

I don't have a movement disorder as is defined in akathisia but an inner restlessness that loops all the negative events of my past. The thought loops start then the stomach knots and numbness. I did some hard outdoor work for a couple hours yesterday and was hit with this intense inner restlessness in the evening. It does seem like my uncontrollable thoughts are the trigger for the discomfort. Funny I slept better last night but woke up a mess. Still moving down this long road.

No noticeable improvement just different expressions of the same problem. Sleep may have improved slightly. Apathy is still a major barrier to healing.

[DataGuy]

@phenylbot keep plugging away. Intense exercise can exacerbate symptoms for some. I think it is always best to start slow and build up your fitness. I am still building up mine after jumping 3 years ago, but am running 7km fairly regularly and working out once or twice a week. Although you may still have symptoms as you gain greater fitness, things are much less scary when you have built up your constitution and feel physically stronger. But when I started out I was only walking 20-30 minutes, and fairly slowly at that. I lost something like 30lbs in 3 months in my acute withdrawal phase. Pretty scary.

 

I also have noticed that I sleep better after a day of solid exercise. Very rare for me to sleep well if I miss my habitual walks or workouts. 

 

Hope you are able to find some way to short circuit the psychological symptoms. If you get time, let me know what coping techniques you have tried and if they helped or didn't. 

[phenylbot]

hi DataGuy, Quite dysphoric these days with increasing inner akathisia. My mind goes to negative thoughts automatically. Previous to withdrawal I went through some trying times that weren't well dealt with. I think it's grief that haunts me these days and a loss of identity. Nardil is a strong drug and THE COLD TURKEY blasted my brain out into space. I have a lot of doubt that I will ever heal from this. Heavy equipment and traffic noises ramp up this irrational fear that has become a constant these days. Still walking but unable to think positively with this intense anxiety. Sleep has not improved since the benzo and I think this has been the real impediment to healing. My hope is that these are still early days and that given more time; things will start to improve. I've not seen one success story from long term nardil users. I should be a good news story if I make it. Sorry this is not a happy post but i must be honest.

Thanks for reading.

[DataGuy]

Hi @phenylbot. I would not be discouraged with the lack of Nardil success stories. It is very uncommonly prescribed nowadays, and the success stories suffer from a selection bias. Often people will post about their suffering when they are not doing well but then disappear back into life when they heal. People spend quite a significant chunk of time in withdrawal and so many are not eager to spend any more time talking about it than they already have. Of course we are very grateful to the people who do post success stories, but sometime people get busy trying to make up for lost time.

 

The symptoms you describe are very typical of withdrawal. It is tough to navigate away from the negative thoughts and your mind will tend to go there at random when you are feeling bad, which is why it's important to find coping strategies to short-circuit it if you can. You will very naturally catastrophize current problems and lament over past failures, but when you are better you will see these are not so bad and quite understandable given the circumstances. Try to remember that it is just the withdrawal taking over your thoughts giving a negative shade to everything and that you do have some control over them with coping strategies. Just need to find a few that work to mitigate symptoms consistently. 

[phenylbot]

Waves of depression and what I believe to be a constant paresthesia taunt me these days. When laying on the couch watching a program random thoughts or scenes will bring wavelike feelings of sadness that i can feel in my heart. This pins and needles feeling (paresthesia) in my arms seems to get worse after a cigarette. Bowels don't work despite fiber intake and exercise. Very hard to be positive in this situation. Benzo withdrawal must be resolved by now. The nardil cold turkey is the real culprit.

[DataGuy]

Thanks for the update, @phenylbot. Very possible the benzo made the withdrawal a bit worse. I think you can recover, but seems like it will be important to be as healthy as you can manage. Cutting out the cigarettes and coffee is a good start. If cigarettes are making things worse, that gives you a good excuse. They are quite harmful to health in many different ways. 

 

Have you tried warm baths or saunas? These things might help a little bit. I know the feeling of being in intense withdrawal and having bowel function problems. Very uncomfortable. 

 

Hang in there, it will slowly get better. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by DataGuy

[phenylbot]

Thanks DataGuy, i'm thinking autonomic dysfunction is a large factor effecting my bowel function. My ability to have a movement is almost zero and I'm extremely uncomfortable. This seems to make the pins and needles feeling worse. Sleep is slightly improved but feelings of hopelessness prevail. 

[DataGuy]

Yes, that is incredibly annoying. I think I mentioned before, if you are feeling really backed up, sipping diluted prune nectar can help. It can be pretty nauseating to try and eat while that is happening. How is your appetite? Do you get hungry around meal times? 

[phenylbot]

Surprisingly my appetite is good. My dr. prescribed the gamut of laxatives. At one point I went months without a movement. I'm thinking that I've got autonomic dysfunction due to bad gut bacteria. Symptoms get worse the more backed up a I get. 

[DataGuy]

@phenylbot that is good that you have a good appetite. After I jumped I couldn't feel hunger for a long time and once was so backed up I (gross out warning) vomited after trying to drink some smoothie to get some calories. You're going to be ok, just going to feel terrible for awhile. If you get really desperate you could always try one of those enema kits they sell at the pharmacy. 

[phenylbot]

Really feeling hopeless these days. My brain and body are numb and the crazy rumination is off the charts. Most of the emotions seem real as i experienced a lot of loss and made huge errors in judgement while on the drug. I'm really feeling humiliated and self loathing as a result. Can't seem to escape the looping negative thoughts. I was on the drug for so long that I wasn't aware that my life was crumbling around me or maybe I just didn't care. Now I can't escape the aftermath. Apathy started on the drug and remains. Only the thoughts have changed. 

   I've been working outdoors a lot and the hot days seem to make my symptoms worse. Strong anxiety and depression. 14 months off now with no identifiable windows. Starting to lose hope and should maybe try to reinstate a crumb. Nardil is such a cryptic drug.

[phenylbot]

Coming to terms with my new diminished reality during this pandemic is probably about as bad a situation as I could have dreamed of.  I'm not sure anymore whether this is withdrawal syndrome or just a deep grieving process. The thing that makes it so much worse is the apathy that pervades. I don't really enjoy anything now. Living has become a chore. Maybe this is the first time in 30 years that I've had real emotions or perhaps these are neuro- emotions. I'm having a hard time dealing with this as it is very confusing. I really can't seem to connect with people much like someone with Asperger's syndrome.  I'll say one thing, life is much easier being emotionally numb, but without emotions you can't really know what life is. Just hoping it's possible to feel real emotions again. I've felt my share of bad ones and am hoping for some good ones soon. Tardive dysphoria is kind of a horrific concept and I have no choice but to render it an invalid theory. Believing in it distinguishes any hope that remains for me. If I ever have a window; I hope it has a spectacular view! 

[DataGuy]

Hi @phenylbot,

 

Hope you are not still thinking of reinstating. If I remember correctly, you have tried that something like 4 times? That could be a partial reason you are so far out from your jump date and have not really seen much progress. The nervous system needs to be allowed to return to normal. When you try to reinstate the drug, it will generally downregulate receptors that you want upregulated, and it may set back your recovery (not really any research in this area). I hope you can resist the temptation to reinstate or try other meds. I know it is difficult, but it doesn't seem like it has been a very productive avenue for you. 

 

I would not get too scared of the 'tardive' label. It does mean that it lasts for a long time after stopping the drug, but it doesn't mean it is permanent. Doctors will also say that tardive dyskinesia is permanent, but that is actually not true if you stay away from meds and other drugs. Plenty of people on the site have stopped meds like antipsychotics and, with abstinence, no longer experience dyskinesias. 

 

Yes, the apathy is difficult. With time and continued healing, you will eventually overcome it. I don't really think the pandemic is helping things for people in withdrawal. Generally we find it difficult to get out at the best of times. Can be helpful to just force yourself out, even if you don't feel like it. Sometimes the outside world will surprise us and actually make us feel better : )

[phenylbot]

Thanks for the advice Dataguy. Took a crumb 2 days in a row and believe it made me worse again. Once again finished with that. Felt I had to try as I tend to forget just how bad things can get. I'm really trying to continue working but it seems since I went back to work in the spring that my symptoms have worsened. I thought it would help but the job has no continuity and I never know what I'll be doing. This ramps up anxiety and rumination. Hope those two crumbs didn't ruin my chances to recover. 

[phenylbot]

obviously I was stupid to try reinstating this far out; but the trial was to avert hospitalization. Lesson learned and I will power on through this smokescreen of horror until hope returns. Going for a colonoscopy tis Monday and elected to have without sedation (yikes). It's necessary to rule out serious bowel issues after over a year of chronic constipation. Hope i haven't lost your support dataguy. I don't blame you if I have as my lack of progress is frustrating. I've come this far so I can only continue. 

[Hanna72]

@phenylbot

1 hour ago, phenylbot said:

obviously I was stupid to try reinstating this far out;

There is nothing “stupid “ in this journey. We all make mistakes during withdrawals, I for sure am in that group. It’s human to want to feel better, and trials and errors are a part of this path. 
 

 

1 hour ago, phenylbot said:

I've come this far so I can only continue. 

Yes there you go! 💪

 
When we fall, the most important thing is getting back up, and that’s what is going to count in the long run.

Be well 🙏

 

[DataGuy]

You will be ok @phenylbot, just hope you are done with the med experimentation. I had a gastroscopy without sedation and it went fine, if that helps....

 

I think it is best to continue working if you can. Ok to take a little break if necessary. Do you have much contact with people there? I guess it was just this spring you started back? Are they supportive?

 

Things will start to improve. Just need to be patient and understand there will be natural ups and downs before and even after you see clear improvement. When you feel terrible it is not necessarily the case that it will continue or get worse. Behavioral techniques can be powerful at alleviating some of your distress during those times.

 

Hope this wave ends soon for you.

 

 

[phenylbot]

I keep watching Robert Whitaker on youtube and can't get over the evidence based research that clearly shows better outcomes of people who decline treatment.  I use to think I could handle a lot of abuse and recover intact. Hopefully this dilemma is just that much harder but can also be overcome. Dataguy, thanks for chiming in. I don't let people know what is going on with me at work. As you know, most people don't get it. These are small town boys who don't talk much about their problems. I want to avoid the mental patient label as I have all my life. As a result, I find this to be a very lonely journey. 

  The continual invalidation of harms that these drugs cause is a crime to humanity and many more will suffer. Big money has always been damaging to the unwary consumer who doesn't question everything. The unaffected remain oblivious until they are swallowed  whole.

   I know that apathy became a huge part of my life while medicated. I'm hoping that some engagement with life will be the turning point to a better life.

[DataGuy]

Yes, Whitaker is an excellent advocate for patients and he is in turn vilified by the usual suspects (mostly psychiatrists). Agreed that you don't want to or need to accept any "mental patient" label. At this point it can be argued that the problems are very physical, so when you have problems you can always default to that part of it. 

 

I think the irony of the mental health industry is that they typically claim that paranoia is a pathological trait, and yet their very existence is proof that paranoia is actually an adaptive trait. You are definitely better off if you don't trust these people, and people who are reluctant to believe their claims will often live a better life if they investigate and reject them. Unfortunately many of us didn't get that far and I don't think it is necessarily anyone's fault. The barrier for understanding the fraud in the medical literature is extremely high. Much of it is written in jargon and esoteric statistics designed to obscure the fact that the treatments have almost no measurable benefit and no good evidence at all beyond a few months. You're right @phenylbot, it is a sort of crime done for profit with the complicity of the medical establishment. Unfortunately we tend to reward white collar crime like that in our country and most 'developed' countries. But I think that is another motivation for working towards recovery. It's much easier to expose this fraud when you are closer to full health then when you are constantly dealing with disabling symptoms. 

[phenylbot]

I've developed a horrible toothache that radiates out to my ear and head. I booked an dental appt. for Monday before the colonoscopy. I'm worried they'll give me antibiotics. Read that they can cause big setbacks. 

[Fallensoul]

Be carefull with local anestetic, I got a bad reaction from it.

 

I read your story, what a fight you are having. I hope you have had the worst.

If you are better in the evenings, focus on that.

My life starts only after 10pm each day for the last 3 years, after prescribed paxil for a burn out pooped out.

 

Nardil is a mao inhibitor with a wide receptor occupancy if I'm correct, so there is quite a bit of upregulation to be done.

We can speed up this by doing things, like learning, making pathways in the brain.

The problem is to find enough motivation and strentgh to break through the immobilisation our current mood states in.

At least that's the way I see it.

Its so damn difficult to break through.

 

Have hope, we have to beat these meds.

[DataGuy]

Hope the appointments went ok, @phenylbot. Yes, antibiotics can cause setbacks. The worst ones are floroquinolones. Antibiotics for infections are very useful, but you should probably only take them if you really need them. That goes for everyone, really. 

[phenylbot]

Colonoscopy was cancelled. I took ibuprofen for the tooth/earache. Found out that's a no no 7 days before the procedure. Something that's really been irking me is the discovery that I may have a full blown avoidant personality disorder. It is a devastating revelation that I may not have recognized while on ad's. I've read that it's extremely difficult to treat. I'm so uncomfortable in my own skin these days even when I'm home with my daughter. The anxiety is always intense and it's exhausting. It's so hard to be around people who are all acquainted with one another in a community that I have no history with. Feel like I'm always being judged and the withdrawal depression makes me feel inadequate. Don't know if I'll ever experience joy again. Diagnosis seem like a curse to me especially those which have no known cure. Maybe it's my withdrawal brain concocting these ideas but the pattern for apd is there. I also think psychotic depression may play a role in how I feel as my thoughts seem to attack me with negative memories and past mistakes.

  Sleep has not returned and ruminating is perpetual. In my opinion I've gotten worse and not better over the last 14 months. Sorry for such an uninspiring report.

[phenylbot]

Data Guy, do you think my self diagnosis of apd may be a result of withdrawal? It seems logical as I've been finding new diagnosis 

for what i'm feeling quite regularly. I was on the drug so long that I don't remember my true feelings about friendships/relationships. 

   It must be natural that when feeling so low, a person wants to avoid social interaction. 

   I've been feeling this weird sensation in my upper spine like a numbness or fatigue and the stomach knots never let up.  The deep depression has not lifted but maybe the result of all the other symptoms that never subside. I feel that in a social situation, I would bring others down. I'm self conscious about how I feel and the impression I might leave. Never been so depressed. Ugh!