phenylbot: 6 months in Nardil / phenelzine withdrawal

[phenylbot]

Other symptoms: 4 hours of sleep a night, unrelenting constipation, no motivation, social anxiety, sore R shoulder neck and back, stomach knots, agitation, hopelessness, hand tremor upon awakening, anhedonia. Not any noticeable windows.

[phenylbot]

This Withdrawal is the cruelest beast I can imagine. I feel at my worst right now, 18 months from CT. I noticed that I haven't mentioned the eye pressure and numbness in my skull. Withdrawal has  me isolative due to the constant nervousness that I feel. I don't feel I can confide in anyone as the very real chance that i'm disbelieved makes me shudder. The loneliness is intensified by the rarity of the population that has had to CT after 30 yrs. of use. Data guy you have been awesome and I hope you haven't given up on me.

[Altostrata]

Nobody seems to like withdrawal syndrome. It occurs much more often than you think.

[DataGuy]

Nope, definitely haven't given up, @phenylbot. Sounds like you are pretty clearly still experiencing withdrawal syndrome. Even with fairly healthy living, avoiding things that can hurt you etc it can still take quite a long time to settle down. Don't mean to be discouraging, but that is just the reality. The best you can do is regular self-care to make existence tolerable as you slowly heal. Plenty of good suggestions on the site. Or taking on some project that you can work on, working towards a goal, but doesn't stress you out or monopolize your time. There are many things that can help make existence more bearable. Things will slowly get better. You are doing great to get this far. I know the constipation is horrible. I had really bad gut problems the first year+. You would not think when someone says they have constipation that it can be that bad, but good lord, in withdrawal it is all consuming and horrible. Feels like the entire nervous system is being punished (and in a way, it is). 

 

I would also sometimes get a prickly feeling in my skull, which is hard to describe but felt pretty ghastly. Like a sickly chemical malaise encircling your head. Probably my weirdest (and least unpleasant symptom) was that I felt like I was stepping in a puddle of water sometimes with my feet, or that I was stepping in socks and shoes that were both soaking wet. Of course my foot was totally dry the entire time, just the nerves at work. I've also had sensations of water drops on my leg with no water in sight. Apparently this is a sign of nerve regeneration that also happens in car crash victims or others who've had traumatic accidents. I think physical symptoms like that are interesting and can be thought of as a sign that you suffered a physical injury to the nervous system, and definitely are not going crazy (at least not because of anything other than the injury). Here is an explanation from Parker at benzo buddies on healing that occurs after nerve injury, calling "what is happening in your brain?"  I think an interesting attempt to demystify things, especially since most doctors do not really bother to acknowledge or explain it. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by DataGuy

[PsychologicalSafe15]

@phenylbot how are your dreams > please help me .

[phenylbot]

My dreams are frequent and I don't recall having nightmares. I sleep 4 hours a night. Is this all you want to know?

[phenylbot]

well...I'm further down this long road and have one or two predominant symptoms that persist which are of course unrelenting severe depression and anxiety. This is a stronger version of what I went on the med for in the first place (30 yrs. ago). I regret ever starting the drug as I would have learned how to deal with things had it not been prescribed. I realize that severe depression could be a withdrawal symptom, but now with my life in a shambles and limited support system, it feels as though there is no way out. All of the other people who went off nardil during the shortage have gone back on and apparently resumed their lives. If I can't reinstate then I would be best described by the medical community as treatment resistant. Not that I want a label. Don't know how anyone can go on with this depression for years on end with no windows. Makes it hard to be positive. I sincerely  hope that time will bring some relief. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DataGuy]

Hi @phenylbot,

 

How are your other symptoms? The insomnia, the burning, the muscle tension, the constipation etc.?

 

I suspect time may indeed bring relief. I forget if you told me, but I assume you tried multiple other meds before going on Nardil 30 years ago? Tricyclics, maybe an SSRI? Have you considered that you may have just been having a transient depressive episode that you would have recovered from naturally if not for chemical interference? Always a possibility, but I don't want to speculate too much, not knowing your history...But I would not rule out recovery. I have felt better the further out I have gotten, but yes, it's a long road. Hopefully we can get these withdrawal syndromes more widely recognized so that patients like us can get support from the medical community that is not simply offers of more meds. 

 

Great to hear from you and hope you feel better soon : )

[phenylbot]

Hi DataGuy, To put things back in perspective nardil seemed to give me relief from depression, especially the anhedonia for a long time. Previous to nardil I was tried on tricyclics (awful effects), antipsychotics (zombie effects) and prozac (also useless). I do often wonder if in time my depression would have lifted on it's own with no drugs. I bet it would have, in which case many people were harmed by these drugs. The reality is that all of these drugs frequently poop out and leave us in worse shape than before their introduction. It seems to me that nardil pooped out on me years ago but still had some effect at alleviating anxiety. The anhedonia returned at about 5 yrs. after the first dose. The lack of natural anxiety took me down a reckless path that up ended my stable existence and landed me in my current predicament. I now have intense anxiety and depression. The shoulder and neck tension persist as well as the constipation. Sleep is still apx 4 hrs. per night with many wake ups to empty the bladder. I'm thinking of reinstating the nardil at a low dose as i've heard of no others being unable to restart. Hope things are progressing with you.

[DataGuy]

Thanks  @phenylbot. It's very possible all those drugs could have had some negative effect on healing. I'm not sure how long you trialed them for, but if it was a few months followed by cold stop or cold switch, this could definitely have a negative effect on your nervous system. There was a clinical trial called the STAR-D trial - not sure if I have mentioned it here - where they tried this type of thing, to mimic the normal prescribing pattern of psychiatric practice (try one drug, if it doesn't work, discontinue and try another, if that doesn't work, try another etc.). By the 3rd drug, 40% of patients had dropped out of the study, and by the 4th, 30% were experiencing intolerable side effects. (Of course this wasn't how it was reported initially). So stopping and starting and cold-switching can definitely have a negative effect on your system. If you are interested you can check out a summary of the study here.

 

So it is very possible that natural recovery is still in the cards for you. Depression is typically episodic, it is just a matter of getting through the withdrawal syndrome in one piece. It's a great sign that you're able to do some work and exercise. Just be sure to notice your progress, including clear, objective markers of achievement like this. 

 

 I don't think it is a good idea to try and reinstate the Nardil, especially since you have already tried that a number of times and failed. That was your system's way of telling you it doesn't want the drug anymore. I know it can seem unbelievable that you can't reinstate, but it's best to just listen to your body and ignore the fact that other people have been able to - for whatever reason - reinstate successfully. Perhaps they will regret having done that later in life. After all, it's not exactly everyone's dream to be completely dependent on a psychotropic drug with unpleasant adverse effects for the rest of their existence. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by DataGuy

[phenylbot]

Well...I broke down and took nardil 15 mg. 3 days in a row. Realizing that I locked in a state of grief, depression and panic for years was just too much to take. I'm now (again realizing that there is no way out of this. If I stop nardil I may have a kindling reaction which is worse than my current state. I can't believe that taking these few pills can reverse any healing that may have taken place over the past 20 months. Should i stop the pills at once or taper. It's been 3 days at 1 tablet 15mg. It seems less and less likely that I will survive this ordeal. I've read where tardive dysphoria has been observed in long term maoi users and wonder why there is not a data base for maoi users to report this phenomena and get a clearer picture of it's prevalence. The lines between dysphoria, anhedonia and apathy are not too clear but any of them is a soul crushing diagnosis. I have to believe that these are all part of withdrawal syndrome and may improve with time. It seems I haven't been spared of any of the withdrawal symptoms. Thanks for reading.

[manymoretodays]

Hi there phenylbot,

I understand that it's been very difficult.

2 hours ago, phenylbot said:

Well...I broke down and took nardil 15 mg. 3 days in a row.

 

So, day started?  Was it the 16th?

 

Accountsettings/signature

Please edit this into your signature, using the above link

 

And why 15 mg for the dose?

Did you know that you can cut tablets? 

If anything, for continuation of this reinstatement, I might consider quartering your tablet, which would be approximately, a 3.75 mg dose of Nardil.  Or if you can get consistent pieces cut, going even lower than 3.75 mg.

And that would most definitely be a more harm reduction approach to your present trial reinstatement.  And give you and us a chance to evaluate if it is helping at all.

It's possible it may help a little bit, a teeny bit, to take the edge of your desperation of long standing WD symptoms now.  And then at that point, perhaps adding increasing the dose might make sense.  (time and notes, and your response to this, would guide in any further dose changes)

 

It's not going to lead to complete recovery however.  And I believe you know that.

 

It's a difficult time of year right now too, for many, darker days, holidays looming, continued covid pandemic, and on it goes.....

 

Oh sweetie, hugs.  I know, I know, as I came off that drug years and years ago.  Difference being, I did not know I was in WD, and wound up royally remedicated, overmedicated, and over diagnosed for years.  So I get how hard this is now for you.

 

If not markedly worse with symptoms, you may need to stick with it too, to see if it helps, even a little.

Best to take your small dose consistently, same time, each day and keep NOTES, or daily symptom logs, and then post here in the format you'll see in this link below, in the quote box:

Daily notes: Recording drug schedule and symptoms to track patterns and progress

 

What we need to see, are symptoms before and after you take your reinstatement dose, for each day, in a simple format.  This will help you and us, evaluate this reinstatement that you are trying.

Day and date

Time- symptoms, activities, can rate symptoms

Time- drug name and dose

Time- symptoms again, can rate them

Time- continue throughout the day, noting times, periodically.  Note sleep, supplements.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, phenylbot said:

If I stop nardil I may have a kindling reaction which is worse than my current state.

 

What exactly do you mean by this above?  I don't think that stopping this trial reinstatement, and then feeling worse is necessarily kindling.  So please clarify.  I do understand that you feel at the end of your rope, so to speak, and would do anything to feel better. 

 

It's just so much safer for you to, if and when reinstating, to start lower than you did.  That is my main point here, today.

 

And then here is the reinstatement topic for your review:

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

So.....you will see, that at best, this far out from your FT(fast taper), you might get just some mild mitigation of your WD symptoms.  Just enough for you to begin to adopt some non-drug coping skills and more confidence in your healing going forward.

 

We are here, to support and help you phenylbot.  And I'll go ahead and bring your case to the attention of other staff now too.  We each do our best, staff here,  to help here, when we can.......we often have very fluctuating schedules and then our real live commitments to attend to, as well as our own self care.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by manymoretodays
another link, proofing for clarity

[phenylbot]

Thanks @manymoretodaysI think I'll just stop the reinstatement now and continue living through this hell. The trial reinstatement really does not seem to be worth trying as it amplifies my worry about having done the wrong thing. Alot of my distress is driven by endless thought loops about the past. My emotions feel completely real as I endured many unbearable losses while medicated with no real emotional response. Maybe it's a grieving process. It makes sense that  i now feel the impact of the losses unmedicated. My current quality of life is the result of drug induced emotional amnesia. I've applied for disability as am too unstable to handle demands of competitive workplace. If I don't get it I'm doomed. 

   I've tried reinstating at 3.75 mg. several times in the past only to find that it amplified my neuro (or real) emotions. I'm reading dark night of the soul and wished I had faith in god as some believe that is all we need. Don't think I've ever dealt well with emotions in the past so it's a hell of a thing to be learning at my age and in this condition. 

  To be honest; I don't think I will recover from this and will have to create a whole new me. To awaken out of emotional amnesia is  the scariest thing I've ever done. I was very sensitive before the drug, just afraid to show it. The drug did a great job of obliterating my sensitivities and now I'm back to feel a life time of regrets that could have been mitigated with natural emotional responses. The most important thing for me now is learning how to manage these emotions and move on to create a new life with minimal support. The support I get on here is the most I can hope for as society has chosen to side with the current model of drugging people who don't comply with the herd. 

[DataGuy]

I think you will recover @phenylbot. The first phase of withdrawal is unfortunately peppered with thoughts of death, never recovering, anger and hopelessness. My withdrawal has followed a similar path, which I'm sure I have mentioned.

 

Phase 1: I thought I would die and was surprised when I didn't

Phase 2:  I was convinced enough that I wouldn't die, but that I would never recover

Phase 3: Convinced I would recover but that it would take too long before I was healthy again and could experience any of the typical joys of a 'good life'

Phase 4: Convinced I will recover, just uncertain when it will happen. Have enough equanimity and patience to wait for it without catastrophizing.

 

I am somewhere between phase 3 and 4. Still experiencing windows and waves which rock me back and forth between those two, though I have made undeniable progress. You will too, Phenylbot, you just need to trust in your body to recover. If you cannot have faith in God, you can at least have faith in yourself. I think you can construct a narrative of resilience and resourcefulness that is both true and believable. After all, you have made it this far. 

 

 

[phenylbot]

Thanks Dataguy you're always so supportive and I appreciate your belief in my ability to recover.

[phenylbot]

well..the reinstatement has made things much worse as I'm now locked in a fear state that is  more intense than before.  My sleep has reverted and the feelings of worthlessness compounded. Guess I needed to remind myself how bad this can get. I've obviously de-stabilized my nervous system further. Baseline withdrawal is so bad that I forget things can get worse. Don't know how I could have thought reinstating would help but was feeling desperate. 

 

At this point I can only wait to get back to my miserable baseline. This drug truly has turned on me and is causing the symptoms that it's suppose to treat. I'm quite certain that the drug pooped out years ago and staying on it may have compounded the damage. I have to look at the global shortage as a blessing in disguise...that is, if I survive withdrawal. Hope things are looking up for you DataGuy

[manymoretodays]

On 11/18/2021 at 12:41 PM, phenylbot said:

Thanks @manymoretodaysI think I'll just stop the reinstatement now and continue living through this hell. The trial reinstatement really does not seem to be worth trying as it amplifies my worry about having done the wrong thing. Alot of my distress is driven by endless thought loops about the past. My emotions feel completely real as I endured many unbearable losses while medicated with no real emotional response. Maybe it's a grieving process. It makes sense that  i now feel the impact of the losses unmedicated. My current quality of life is the result of drug induced emotional amnesia. I've applied for disability as am too unstable to handle demands of competitive workplace. If I don't get it I'm doomed. 

   I've tried reinstating at 3.75 mg. several times in the past only to find that it amplified my neuro (or real) emotions. I'm reading dark night of the soul and wished I had faith in god as some believe that is all we need. Don't think I've ever dealt well with emotions in the past so it's a hell of a thing to be learning at my age and in this condition. 

 

 

 

Hey there phenylbot,

I've gone through some of that looping around thinking, and then definitely a huge amount of grief, post WD.

It is a grieving process.

And I have managed to get the hang of or better non-drug coping going to help re-regulate my emotions more healthily.....

At this point, almost 5 years out from my last drug go round, and tapering off........I actually consider it healing from a bit of iatrogenic injury, rather than WD. 

Oh boy, don't go to catastrophic thinking.  And I do hope that you might get disability for a time.  I was fortunate, or unfortunate enough.......I go with fortunate, to get disability based on a bogus psych diagnosis.  There is, a diagnostic category for discontinuation syndrome too:

DSM-5 Diagnosis Code: Antidepressant Discontinuation Syndrome 995.29 (ICD-10 T43.205A)

 

This may be helpful for you ^

By the way, I did not attempt to get a doctor, to change my status to the above, as I did not wish to mess with the complicated system that granted me mine(disability).

It all had been quite disabling for me though, to say the least, the overmedication, and then adverse reactions, and then the WD processes.......I mean there were several, some without tapers, and long term, like you, but on many many trials of psychoactives.

The disability due to these medications, and WD, poor deprescribing practices, etc.  has skyrocketed in the last few decades.  It's got to change, and is beginning to..........just barely, but it is happening.

 

I am happily well into healing and coping now, I'd like to report to you.  To give you hope.  It was not all a struggle, and I cannot imagine another journey.  Look at all I might have missed, and all the new people I've met, and knowledge I've gained.  I best just write it, my Success Story, before or on about my 5 year anniversary of getting psychoactive medication free.

 

Some non-drug stuff you might investigate, and links to topics that may be helpful:

Dealing with Emotional Spirals

Neuroemotions

Withdrawal causing repetitive or intrusive thoughts, rumination, and increased panic?

Dialectical Behavior Therapy(DBT) and Radical Acceptance

EFT(Emotional Freedom Techniques)

 

And so much more phenylbot......check out forest bathing, nature in general, music....oh music, sweet music, and oh so many things to guide your healing are there.  Here and even in your ground community.  Imagine more support coming your way.  It'll happen.  And you'll heal.

 

Oh, books, good old books.  Try- Cure: A Journey Into the Science of Mind Over Body, author- Jo Marchant

One of my personal favorites ^, helped me a lot, in the beginning.

Look also at the Finding Meaning forum

 

So sorry, and yes it might be a bit of kindling post your last trial of reinstatement.  Always best to start low, low, low though.......this I know, know, know(trying to be witty, badly I'll add)

 

And best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

 

[phenylbot]

Thanks for the kind words and advice Many More. The world is a better place with you in it!

 

[phenylbot]

I realize people have found themselves here for various reasons.  https://medicalsciences.stackexchange.com/questions/13526/antidepressant-res This article explains that ssri meds. increase serotonin levels a few hundred percent above baseline whereas; maoi's increase it 2000 percent above. The phenomena of tardive dysphoria (a particularly difficult version) has been observed in long term maoi users.

   Frankly, I am now quite horrified that my condition may never resolve. maoi's are not the same as other antidepressants. They are much stronger and just as prone to poop out. When they do the results are catastrophic.  I'm here because a global shortage forced me off cold turkey. This in itself compounds the problem. I'm overwhelmed and feeling extremely depressed and hopeless. it's been 20 months with some failed attempts at re-instating which set me back.

 

Never been this depressed in my life and don't think I can hold on much longer. People are strange when you're a stranger. Don't be a stranger... The real science does not support use of these drugs. What a horror show. How is it that this hypothesis can be proposed and discussed so rarely in the media? Is it that rare that it doesn't deserve all the attention that other "diagnosis" get? Something really creepy must be going on in the field of psychiatry. Is their any hope of recovering from tardive dysphoria? Is this just part of prolonged withdrawal. I know someone who doesn't know...Psychiatry! 

[ChessieCat]

  

21 minutes ago, phenylbot said:

Something really creepy must be going on in the field of psychiatry.

 

Have you read "Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America"?

 

I was shocked when I found this out:

 

This is an except from Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect by Irving Kirsch (link to full article)

How Did These Drugs Get Approved?
....
The FDA requires two adequately conducted clinical trials showing a significant difference between drug and placebo.  But there is a loophole:  there is no limit to the number of trials that can be conducted in search of these two significant trials.  Trials showing negative results simply do not count.  Furthermore, the clinical significance of the findings is not considered.  All that matters is that the results are statistically significant.
....
(NB:  emphasis in abstract and excerpt are mine)

 

 

 

And this is excellent by the author of the above.  They got all the clinical drug trial results through Freedom of Information.

 

Video:  Irving Kirsch:  Emperor's New Drugs:  Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect (1 hour 20 minutes)

[DataGuy]

Hmm, 2000% seems like a bit of an unrealistic number @phenylbot. I notice he doesn't provide a reference for that statement. Will have to look it up. 

[phenylbot]

Hi @DataGuyI've been really concerned re: tardive dysphoria. The level of anxiety and depression I feel is beyond belief. I need hope that tardive dysphoria can be overcome. It seems that I may have been experiencing the symptoms to varying degrees since I cold turkeyed 20 months ago. Symptoms are most intense right now as my gut is in tight knots, my mind is full of non-stop worry and I'm severely depressed. I did the un-thinkable by re-introducing nardil to my already unstable nervous system. Will this ever get better? I feel like a complete fool as I should (and did) know better. Sleep has gone back down to 2 hrs. Unable to nap as it brings on a disturbing depressive state. Things were not good before which caused me to ppanic and re-try the drug. Very bad idea...

[DataGuy]

I've just gone down a bit of a rabbit hole of research papers, but I think we can allay some fears as to the several hundred percent vs 2000% increase in serotonin, because I can't find anything close to a reference for that. Most of the references don't even really refer to % increase in serotonin, many of them refer to rat brain studies, and often they just talk about serotonin transporter occupancy rather than a quantity of serotonin increased. I think what is important is the interaction of the increased serotonin in the synapse with the receptors. The wikipedia description of how the drugs work, which references a pharmacology textbook and is a familiar explanation, states that: 

 

"SSRIs inhibit the reuptake of serotonin. As a result, the serotonin stays in the synaptic gap longer than it normally would, and may repeatedly stimulate the receptors of the recipient cell. In the short run, this leads to an increase in signaling across synapses in which serotonin serves as the primary neurotransmitter. On chronic dosing, the increased occupancy of post-synaptic serotonin receptors signals the pre-synaptic neuron to synthesize and release less serotonin. Serotonin levels within the synapse drop, then rise again, ultimately leading to downregulation of post-synaptic serotonin receptors.^[163]"

 

So the brain adapts in at least two ways to the temporary increase in serotonin in the synapse: it downregulates serotonin (5-HT) receptors and also produces less serotonin. So your brain likely reaches a sort of steady state after a certain period of usage. Phenelzine works a bit differently by inhibiting monoamine oxidase and increasing serotonin (and other monoamines) that way, but the brain likely adapts to that by increasing the production of monoamine oxidase, while also reducing the production of various monoamines, downregulating receptors etc. The brain always adapts to accommodate the drugs.

 

Theories of how recovery occurs usually involve upregulating receptors that have been downregulated and allowing the brain to adapt back to its pre-drug state. This is why it is important to avoid drugs, supplements, teas, smoking, drinking etc. which can throw your neurochemistry out of kilter by preventing upregulation of receptors, and why we tend to discourage reinstatement (especially if the first reinstatement fails) or the use of new drugs. I don't think you have destroyed all your progress or anything, @phenylbot, but I also don't think it is fair to say you have had 20 months of uninterrupted healing. Attempting to reinstate + using other meds like benzos can definitely slow your healing or even set you back by preventing the brain from adapting back to its pre-drug state. It may also create a certain level of drug toxicity, something that is usually neglected when talking about recovery. On that front I don't think you need to worry as much as you might think. We have people here who recover from long term antipsychotic use, drugs that actually cause brain volume decreases within months. Recovery will certainly take time, but as long as you are taking care of yourself and trying to do what you can to be healthy, your body should figure things out. Don't worry about how long it has been or how long it is going to take. To a certain degree that is out of your control.

 

I am quite low on sleep too, so I hope this makes sense. I don't think there is any special reason you can't recover from Nardil wd. Most hypotheses as to why it might be especially impossible to recover are just idle speculation without good evidence. And as @ChessieCat mentioned, these drugs don't actually tend to work very well in the first place, so you shouldn't worry about not being able to take them. The benefits were always exaggerated, while the harms were suppressed. Recovery will happen with time, you just need to do your best to cope with the symptoms and make life as tolerable as possible in the interim. 

[phenylbot]

Thanks for the hopeful message DataGuy. Your guidance helps enormously. Broke out my rowing machine today and will use it to try and counteract depressive spikes. Hope your sleep improves soon. 

[DataGuy]

That is a great idea @phenylbot. I think we can learn to be problem solvers rather than catastrophizers, but it is very difficult in the beginning, since we  mostly relied on drugs and doctors to solve problems before. Easy to fall into learned helplessness rather than thinking things through and taking positive action. 

[manymoretodays]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:34 PM, phenylbot said:

Never been this depressed in my life and don't think I can hold on much longer. People are strange when you're a stranger. Don't be a stranger... The real science does not support use of these drugs. What a horror show. How is it that this hypothesis can be proposed and discussed so rarely in the media? Is it that rare that it doesn't deserve all the attention that other "diagnosis" get? Something really creepy must be going on in the field of psychiatry. Is their any hope of recovering from tardive dysphoria? Is this just part of prolonged withdrawal. I know someone who doesn't know...Psychiatry! 

 

Oh my gosh, blast from my past:

 

The Doors!

 

And yes, people come out of, and do heal from tardive dysphoria.  Time, time is on your side.

And your innate capacity to heal, for healing.

You'll see.  Hang on.

 

Oh, and that 2000% thing, or even 100% thing with increasing serotonin, or downregulating receptors.  They found some people responding to drugs that lowered their serotonin, at one point......with mood elevation. (This kind of stuff I'm reading in Johann Hari's , The Lost Connection , so I don't have a further reference than that), and so, just to say.......that may not mean much, as far as dis-ease, or healing goes.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by manymoretodays
more, removed second closure

[phenylbot]

Hello @DataGuy and @manymoretodaysHope things are going well. i've been plagued with more severe fight or flight feelings and that debilitating melancholy. I'm starting to understand this philosophy of healing that we all need to hold on to. The tardive conditions that I believe I have are part of protracted withdrawal and will resolve eventually but that may take several years. People talk about waves and windows but I've felt only continual dread and grief. My mind won't stop ruminating about my voluntarily leaving a career job 15 yrs. ago. I regretted this before withdrawal but was never so devastated about it as I am now. I know it's water under the bridge but my mind won't shut up about it. Such a stupid thing to do and can't believe I had such little sense. 

  Recently I found a great deal on a car that i've been looking for. I had the opportunity to buy it but declined. I don't have the confidence to commit to anything. I now feel like I've lost the opportunity of a lifetime. Damn...it's just a car but why does it seem so important to me. my sleep is broken but usually 4 hrs. a night. Been using my rowing machine and walking daily. I feel so detached from everything and this feeling has been with me from the start. I think I'm still early in this withdrawal process especially since my many failed re-instatements. All of this with Christmas coming up is so overwhelming. Take care

[DataGuy]

Hi @phenylbot,

 

I can definitely identify with feeling overwhelmed with Christmas. I am constantly behind on everything despite only working 3 days a week. My energy and concentration are very unreliable, then have random symptom flare-ups. Really impossible to keep up. 

 

I'm glad you are exercising regularly. That is great. Exercise is supposed to help with neurogenesis. Hopefully it also leads to some short term symptom relief too. Worst case scenario you are in much better shape. 

 

I am sorry you are being tortured by rumination. I had that early on in withdrawal but only for a few months and it was awful. I would be sitting there and all the sudden realize my thoughts had turned to anger and rage of their own accord. Going for a walk usually helped. I believe this symptom will also pass for you. It just may take some more time. Is there any way you've found to manage it effectively?

 

Hope you get some relief soon, @phenylbot. You are on the right track. 

[Alan1234]

Wishing you healing and peace over Christmas 

[HelpNardilWD]

On 3/30/2021 at 5:50 PM, phenylbot said:

Well it seems the symptoms have reached a new level of intensity. I now have bad headache to add to the growing list. Anxiety is through the roof full time now. 

Actually went to visit a great couple of friends that I've known for years. They were very supportive. Unfortunately they live an hour away.  I'm still struggling with the question of klonopin withdrawal vs. nervous system hypersensitivity. I've stayed off all meds and hoping that my cns will calm down.  Walking everyday still but sleep is poor (2 hrs last night) and I can't seem to take naps. If this is klonopin withdrawal, I hope it fades soon. Thanks for reading.

  

:

How are you doing?

[manymoretodays]

Hi phenylbot,

We need the post Christmas report now.  Oh, I hope it went well and the New Year is going okay.  This first week has seemed hectic for me.  I am always defaulting to optimism though and so things are going fine.

 

I could relate to your "lost car" story and then obsessing over it.

Darn the neuroemotions!  They are buggers. 

It will get better though, has for me.

 

Update soon?

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[phenylbot]

Hello, Christmas was difficult as I felt disconnected from everyone and quite depressed. Trying to appear joyful is such a pain. You do it for the good of the group. I have been incredibly low for a long period now and it's hard to endure. Just going to the store is a real challenge for me now. 

  Had a colonoscopy under anesthesia on Tuesday. Been in an intense anxiety state ever since. It seems the flight or flight has ramped up. Still unable to nap during the day as when I nod off; I feel this unexplainable depressive rumination begin. Have to get up and move about to shake it off. Knots in gut get very severe still and constipation is chronic and severe. To be honest; I've been worse off than ever for the past couple months. I ruminate still over my lost career (15 yrs. ago) and my inabilty to improve my life now. Sorry for the sob story but it's my reality these days. I hope the best for you @manymoretodays

[manymoretodays]

It's okay.  Not a sob story, just is what it is now. 

17 hours ago, phenylbot said:

Had a colonoscopy under anesthesia on Tuesday. Been in an intense anxiety state ever since. It seems the flight or flight has ramped up. Still unable to nap during the day as when I nod off; I feel this unexplainable depressive rumination begin. Have to get up and move about to shake it off. Knots in gut get very severe still and constipation is chronic and severe. To be honest; I've been worse off than ever for the past couple months. I ruminate still over my lost career (15 yrs. ago) and my inabilty to improve my life now. Sorry for the sob story but it's my reality these days. I hope the best for you @manymoretodays

 

It might be a ramp up secondary to whatever was used to anesthetize for the colonoscopy.  Was it the propofol?  Or did you do the colonoscopy awake.

The gut issues can be tough.  I didn't suffer much along those lines, but did have some GI concerns along the way.

Are you taking any Magnesium regularly, for calming?  I just wonder if that might even help a tad with the constipation.
Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

here is the read on that ^

I'm just speculating, that even when used in the doses we use for calming, it might have an effect on lifting the constipation??

And how about dietary?  I found that once I added in my blender concoctions to my diet that I became ultra regular as far as my GI functioning went.  I think it's the greens......I do spinach, blueberries, greek yogurt, sometimes tumeric protein powder, and cranberry juice.......all blended up.  Almost daily.

 

I still have to check myself too, phenylbot......I mean I get into just life waves I guess where I too will ruminate, and feel almost paralysis to action.  I think I've got it now.......I do, as far as catching it in time, and NOT over-isolating beyond say maximum one or two days of quiet, and away from what sometimes seems like a world just moving too fast out there, and too loud.

Isolation is what throws me off into icky land.

 

So......that sounds great.  I mean not so great faking it for your loved ones, but.......just the community you had a bit more of for a brief period.

I've struggled with my options for more social.  Like do I really want to go with them, or them??  Or get involved in that, or that?   And then, it's not like Covid hasn't affected all of that.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

And best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited January 8, 2022 by manymoretodays

[DataGuy]

On 1/8/2022 at 1:57 PM, manymoretodays said:

It might be a ramp up secondary to whatever was used to anesthetize for the colonoscopy.  Was it the propofol?  Or did you do the colonoscopy awake.

 Interesting question from MMT. Also interested to know what it was for. Cancer screening? An attempt to investigate the gastro problems? Don't need to answer if you don't feel comfortable. I had a gastroscopy years ago but they didn't find anything remarkable. 

 

Sorry you are suffering @phenylbot. I hope you have some days where you feel better soon. 

[phenylbot]

Colonoscopy was routine cancer screening. A couple benign polyps were found and removed. I was put to sleep for the procedure. This withdrawal is getting progressively worse and I fear dementia is creeping in. I can't get support as no one can truly understand my problem...neither do I. It's an impossible situation with no clear solution. Hope you keep improving Dataguy.

 

[DataGuy]

Ok, thanks, P. I wish you had better medical guidance and understanding, @phenylbot. Before going in for screening or general anesthetic, they should be sure there is going to be a benefit and minimal harm. Unfortunately general anesthesia, while not harmful to most people, might be harmful to you. There are other ways of screening for colon cancer which are less invasive and would have been less problematic to you. I am a bit 😠 with your doctor!