phenylbot: 6 months in Nardil / phenelzine withdrawal

[phenylbot]

Hi, I've read many people's stories on here and have found them to be strikingly similar to my experience with protracted withdrawal.

I took nardil 60 mgs. for close to thirty years and found it had a real effect on my low mood and ability to socialize. In February of 2020

I discovered that nardil was put on permanent back order. This resulted in too rapid a taper and subsequent suffering with anxiety, depression social 

anhedonia, depersonalization....you name it.

 

In hindsight the years I was on this med seem less productive to me than I may have realized while still medicated. I left a union job, was foolishly fired 

from a good job that I excelled in as well as a plethora of other poorly navigated life decisions. I now ruminate over these events constantly and revisit them 

with a daily early cortisol spike which disrupts my sleep.

 

It's been over 6 months since my last nardil tablet and things have not improved much. Some days are worse than others ...the worst being mornings when 

this trancelike depersonalization saps me of my minimal energy reserves. 

 

I've not really used any other meds over the years other than a mild weed indulgence. I've never been much of a drinker and am told I'm in good physical health.

 

Wondering if I should try reinstating a small dose of nardil at this late stage as it's become available again? 

 

I've really been inspired by the stories on here and I think highly of the efforts taken to shed light on this scary issue of antidepressant withdrawl. 

Any advise would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 Phenylbot

Edited October 4, 2020 by Gridley

[Gridley]

Welcome to phenylbot.

 

To give members the best information, we ask them to summarize their medication history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly.Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

I'm sorry you ran into this drug supply situation. The symptoms you describe are typical of withdrawal.  

 

Reinstatement of a very small dose of the original drug is the only known way to help alleviate withdrawal syndrome.  The only other alternative is to try and wait out the symptoms and manage as best you can until your central nervous system returns to homeostasis.  Unfortunately no one can give you an exact timeline as to when you will start feeling better. 

 

Reinstatement isn't a guarantee of diminished symptoms for everyone but it's the best tactic available.  Reinstatement predictably works up to 3 months after last dose.  You're six months out, so it might work or it might not.  There's a possibility it could make things worse.  We usually suggest a much smaller reinstatement dose than your last dose.  These drugs are strong, and when reinstating it is better to start with a small amount, your system has become sensitized and If you take too much it may be too much for your brain.    Please read:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms. -- at least the first page of the topic

 

If I understand correctly, you stopped cold turkey from 60mg Nardil. Is that correct?  If you're interested in reinstating, let me know and we will suggest a reinstatement dosage.  Please don't reinstate without letting us suggest a dosage.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

Edited October 4, 2020 by manymoretodays
removed weird white space :0

[phenylbot]

Hello Gridley, I'm thinking of reinstating nardil. It seems to me that one quarter of a tablet apx 3.5 milligrams is a reasonable start. 

Please let me know if this is too much. 

   It's difficult for me to recognize a window, although I seem to have some days that are better than others. 

   A big problem for me is that I moved from my home in the city to be with my common-law spouse. We had a child together. After 

 8 yrs. my spouse passed away; leaving me to care for our 8 yr. old daughter. We had to move again to a place where we don't know anyone. 

A big problem for me has always been establishing new friends. Now I ruminate about my lack of social contacts.  This didn't seem to phase me 

while I was still on nardil. Now the prospect of no social contacts near us frightens me. Could this be part of the withdrawal? I realize that social contacts are 

vital in everyone's life. I'm afraid that my poor judgement on meds is what got us into this predicament. Is recovery possible without the support of friends?

  I'm 55 yrs. old and have had good friends years ago who I've lost contact with. They don't even know of my history with meds. This is a good example of the realities 

that I ruminate about. It's sure not a good time to meet new friends or connect with old ones during this withdrawal and covid19 to watch out for. I don't expect 

a reply to my rambling. Hope you are well.

Phenylbot

[Gridley]

6 hours ago, phenylbot said:

ne quarter of a tablet apx 3.5 milligrams is a reasonable start. 

If your last dose was 60mg, 3.5mg would be appropriate.  Please keep in mind that at 6 months out, it may not work.  If it makes you feel worse, stop immediately.  It takes around 4 days for the reinstatement dose to reach full strength in your blood stream and a few more days to register in the brain.

It's a good idea to keep daily notes on paper on how the reinstatement is doing.  

 

It can take months to stabilize then you can start a slow 10% taper down to zero. For that taper you'll need to be more exact that cutting tablets, perhaps by using a digital scale like the Gemini-20 scale, available on Amazon.  But we can deal with that when the time comes.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

I'm very sorry about your spouse.  These are certainly hard times, but recovery is possible.  Please keep in mind that the purpose of reinstatement isn't to eliminate withdrawal symptoms completely (though it does for some) but rather to make withdrawal more tolerable.  

[manymoretodays]

Hi phenylbot and welcome,

Hey, I had wanted to stop by and say hi earlier, when I saw that you had come off Nardil.

That was really when a huge part of my journey began.

I had settled on that drug for somewhere around 10 years, and then decided to come on off, with doctors help, when the time was right.  And sheesh, no one ever even informed me of WD(withdrawal).  It was well documented, even then........  The time frame of WD was believed to be much more short term than what we believe now, however.

Did you ever have the dreaded reaction to tyramine?  I did.  I guess I was fortunate, as I had an antidote to my probable sky high BP, on hand to take.  However, I did not feel so fortunate.......it was intense and came with an excrutiating occipital headache.  I literally thought I might be a goner.......and just a young Mum at the time.

 

Anyway......mine was an abrupt 2 week taper and sometime around that time or shortly after all heck broke loose.  I didn't know either, back then, about WD, or the inanity of all these diagnonsense terms, around normal reactions to life.  Eh, now I do.  And it's taken time.......yet, healing is good for me.

 

I wound up overmedicated with everything under the sun, for awhile........and still no one mentioned WD.  What a crazy world.

 

Hey, when you get a chance would you:  Summarize your history in a signature for us

Are you on any other drugs?

 

Were you taking split doses of your 60 mg daily total, originally? 

 

And do start small, really low with your reinstatement, and then carefully observe, and keep some notes.  Try and give it a good week, to observe, with the 3.5 mg dose.  Keep us posted and updated too.    Even daily!

 

It looks like Gridley has gone over most of this with you really well.

 

Okay, my best intentions are with you, know that........it might help.  It is, truly best, to try reinstatement with the drug you came off of.  And so, I'm glad you have some around.  I would think that there must be some available somewhere too.  I just ran into an article by some doctor, who really endorses the MAOI's .........still.  They do a number, on multiple receptors.  Personally, I'm not a fan.

 

Welcome aboard again, the club or ship that you never really planned on joining or boarding.......it's a good one though!

L, P, H, and G,

moderator manymoretodays

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by manymoretodays

[phenylbot]

Thanks for your interest "many more days". I tried reinstating 3.5 mg nardil but was unable to sleep. I came off after 2 days. 

I recently caught a nasty cold from my daughter and this seems to have sent me into a wave of depression. Is it possible that a bad cold 

could do this? I took an ibuprofen to help symptoms but felt it as kindling. It seems that I am now very sensitized to everything. 

   

  I do drink a lot of coffee and am a smoker so this probably doesn't help. it seems that I'm at a loss as to what to do next. Do I try the reinstatement

again and bear the insomnia, (it did take the edge off the depression) Should I wait for this cold to subside as it may be triggering the depression?

 

  Thirty years is an awfully long time to be on such a powerful drug as nardil. I use to take the full dose in the morning (60mg at once) The Pdoc said this would 

help subdue the insomnia. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

[manymoretodays]

Hi phenybot!

 

Yes, of course.......and especially a nasty cold, could throw you off now.  I know, some of us wind up weirdly sensitized to a lot.  It's a good idea to go real easy, even with OTC(over the counter drugs).......instead of taking what you might have before, do a test of a small dose first.

 

I used to take mine, on arising and then at lunch time......the Nardil and don't recall much insomnia, but I had "scream dreams" sometimes,  I would wake us all up, after experiencing really scary dreams, screaming.  That was fun. 

 

Another option, I think you could try, would be liquifying some of your Nardil, and starting with an even lower dose, taking it first thing in the morning.

It does appear it's soluble in water:  https://go.drugbank.com/salts/DBSALT000954

Even just 1 mg might help.  How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

You could make a 1 mg per 1 mL solution and then just take 1 mL.  Dissolve your tablet in the same amount of tepid water, as the dose in mg.

 

Unfortunately, we don't as yet have a tapering topic on Nardil.  Perhaps you and I can write one.  I did not make it beyond the first couple of weeks after my WD.  It was so long ago, but I'm guessing I dealt with some low, low feelings and almost sure that I skyrocketed into some nearly intolerable "anxiety" or just nervous system on fire.  Like, I said, I wound up royally re-medicated for years.  And I don't wish that on you.  We've had quite a few come through here, on Nardil, or who had been on it.  You can search in the top search box for Nardil, and some of the other introductions may come up.

 

We do have an extensive Symptoms and Self care forum, with all kinds of topics, to help you deal with some of the symptoms that you are experiencing.

Do you have someone to talk to, on a regular basis, who really listens and even might help you begin to practice or try stuff other than medicatons ?

 

Some of the insomnia, may just be WD too, it's pretty common around here.  If it started up with the reinstatement, it just may well have been due to that. 

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful WD insomnia

 

 

On 10/4/2020 at 4:26 PM, Gridley said:

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

I started with some Magnesium first and found it pretty darn calming, when I first arrived.

And now I take the Omega-3's too.

So there are those options too.

 

I can't think of anything else right now, but do keep on coming by with updates, and any further questions.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

[phenylbot]

After having tried reinstating @ 3.5 mg and being hit with insomnia; I've decided to stay off all prescribed meds. It's been 7 months of hell but somehow I've 

with it. I sleep about 5 or six hrs. a night and have been dealing with anhedonia, lack of motivation tingling arms, anxiety and depression. I believe that I developed

social anhedonia while still on nardil and wondering if this could be a side effect of psych meds.

  

  Not sure why, but the world seemed to suddenly become way more intimidating to me since this withdrawal syndrome began. The feeling of being detached from 

people is quite disturbing. 

 

Other than fear of kindling the reason I don't reinstate is that I've only been on this one med for the entire thirty years and at this point it seems to be a more linear 

approach to recovery. 

 

Most family and friends don't get what I'm going through and I don't blame them given the lack of the medical communities effort to promote awareness on the 

subject. Maybe someday ai will fill in the blanks. It is true that if someone has not experienced this nightmare first hand, they will not understand it at all. I'm 

thankful for all the people on here who have shared their stories and wish the best for everyone here. Don't give up. 

[manymoretodays]

Thanks for updating phenylbot.  And the upbeat message for others.

I don't blame you for not wanting to try to reinstate again at this point.

Work on the coffee and cigs too, reducing them, may help improve the sleep.

And if you need to find a therapist who doesn't push drugs.......that can be a good experience too.  It has been for me.  Took me years to find the right therapist however.  You may have better luck though.  Don't be discouraged.  I still do lot's of self help as well......books or online stuff.......that can be equally valuable, in learning how to deal with life now.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 6:42 PM, phenylbot said:

I sleep about 5 or six hrs. a night and have been dealing with anhedonia, lack of motivation tingling arms, anxiety and depression. I believe that I developed

social anhedonia while still on nardil and wondering if this could be a side effect of psych meds.

 

I think your symptoms now are WD.  It's not just about getting the drug out of your body.  The first post here has a great explanation:

How psychiatric drugs remodel your brain

 

And yes, the social anhedonia may have started with the numbing effects of the Nardil.  Numbing out of emotions is what these drugs often do.

 

Good to hear from you, my Nardil survivor, friend.....❤️

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[phenylbot]

It's been 3 months since I've updated my progress here. Things aren't great but surviving.

I tried to reinstate 3.5 mg nardil 4 different times but the strange depersonalized feeling always scares me back off of the drug.

I quit after only 4 days. It's been over a month since my last attempt. 

 

Stomach knots and severe constipation have been steady. Wondering if sibo could be a factor. 

  

  Recently my doc prescribed clonazepam .5 mg twice daily. I took for 3 days but now stopped as I worry about dependence. It seemed to help the severe anxiety but made me more depressed. Now back to no meds. I'm sure all these trials are bad for recovery but felt I needed to try something. Going for daily walks helps .

 

Lack of social contacts is a major obstacle as we're new to this town and covid has really exacerbated this. I can't see that changing for a while.

I know how important it is to be social but nothing can be done. 

 

Neuro emotions ramp up these feelings of isolation. I'm still early in this process so hoping things will improve. A very lonely situation.

[phenylbot]

Hope someone reads this and can throw me a lifeline. It's been 11 months since I was forced to cold turkey off nardil and I'm now certain that re-instating a low 

dose is out of the question.  Each time I try my symptoms ramp up and don't abide for weeks after stopping. I'm not sure that i'm using this site properly but have read many of the stories and found many of them to resemble my dilemma. What concerns me most is the lack of complete nardil stories.

 

  I've not found one person who has successfully beaten this drug. The ruminating thoughts, neuro emotions and mental akathisia are relentless and unbearable. I'm aware that cold turkey off of 30 yrs. of steady nardil use is very uncommon but this is me and i'm still here albeit hanging from a thread. There is no help available for me and I currently am taking nothing. The neuro emotions make it hard to judge whether I've made any progress. 

 

  I try to walk every day and have cut out caffeine. Recently I've spent entire days in fight or flight mode where my head and arms are numb and stomach is in knots.

The doom and gloom feelings give me no access to joy or hope. most things trigger me. I wake up many times during the night and often can't get back to sleep. 

I'm sure the lack of sleep has slowed recovery and exacerbated all symptoms. The most difficult being rumination. Is there any hope of beating this withdrawal syndrome after nardil cold turkey/ I'm sure I'd be better off having been on heroin as there would be some rehabilitation services available. Canada is way behind when it come to recognizing paws. I am just prescribed more drugs and disbelieved. 

 

I hope that I can form some sort of connection with people on this forum who can relate to this terrible feeling of being alone in this battle. Nardil is a drug that effects all three of the receptors in the brain and body so I  worry that my brain has little to go by as it tries to repair itself. Maybe more time will result in more healing. I wish everyone on this forum well.

[RusTW]

How are u?

[RusTW]

It will take some time for you to get better. You have to remember for many years you relied on that medication. You will be forming a new you look forward to that. It is a challenge to be off of meds and to rely on yourself. But the reward is you did it

[phenylbot]

Thanks RusTW, It is very challenging as I a widower raising a teen daughter and I'm currently un-employed. I think for years I was numb to the value of all important things in my life and now, a year out, all that was important to me is gone except my daughter whom I love and care for. Currently have no real friends mostly due to my apathetic view on everything. How I wished that now I had one person to talk to. i've always been a kind hearted person who often put others ahead of me. Unfortunately it seems nice guys finish last. My confidence is completely gone and I see no way out. It's been most intense as of late with things opening up again after covid. Thanks for reading

[phenylbot]

This is so relentless. No windows, just panic, anxiety, depression insomnia, panic, stomach knots, constipation, fear, noise sensitive etc...

I feel worse since due to a mistake of taking clonazepam. I've only used 6 .5 mg. tablets since feb. 1. Is it possible that I'm now addicted to K?

I halved the .5 mg tabs and sometimes quartered and since stopping 5 days ago my symptoms have gotten progressively worse. I saw where 

someone stated clonazepam addiction can set in over mere days. Is this true? Do I need to restart a small dose? I really need advise.

[phenylbot]

To clarify, I took 6 tablets .5 mg  divided in small doses over the course of a month. 

[phenylbot]

23 hours ago, phenylbot said:

To clarify, I took 6 tablets .5 mg  divided in small doses over the course of a month. 

      So much for community, guess I'll just discontinue use. Klonopin is not for me. Hope it hasn't ******up my recovery too badly 

[ChessieCat]

SA's main benzo mod is taking time off at the moment.

 

Please be aware that the moderators are all unpaid volunteers and give freely of their time to assist members when they can.

 

I've asked one the other mods who has some benzo knowledge if he is able to assist you.

[DataGuy]

On 3/16/2021 at 1:56 PM, phenylbot said:

This is so relentless. No windows, just panic, anxiety, depression insomnia, panic, stomach knots, constipation, fear, noise sensitive etc...

I feel worse since due to a mistake of taking clonazepam. I've only used 6 .5 mg. tablets since feb. 1. Is it possible that I'm now addicted to K?

I halved the .5 mg tabs and sometimes quartered and since stopping 5 days ago my symptoms have gotten progressively worse. I saw where 

someone stated clonazepam addiction can set in over mere days. Is this true? Do I need to restart a small dose? I really need advise.

 

Hi @phenylbot,

 

Sorry for the delay. Did you take the clonazepam every night for a month? Or intermittently? Have you updated your drug signature? Taken any supplements or drugs since the last time you updated it? Still smoking and drinking coffee? Apologies if you have answered these questions, haven't had time to read your entire intro. 

[phenylbot]

I took the clonazepam intermittently at doses of half a tab (.25 mg.) for 4 nights before realizing the depressive effects. I stopped taking for a few days and tested the waters with a few days of a quarter tab (.125). I stopped again for a few days and started a quarter tab for a few more days. Stopped and took a half tab for 2 days. This was over the course of 45 days. In total I've taken 6 tablets, and my fear is that because of my already compromised nervous system, I  may be somewhat hooked now. My symptoms resemble the early withdrawal that I endured with nardil. I'm shaky and having terrible ruminating thoughts about my past and all the mistakes that I've made. It really is hellish. One week ago at the encouragement of my gp, I took a whole .5mg. tab and felt horrible the entire day. It made my already poor sleep worse as I was constantly jolted awake. It's been seven days since I've touched the med and I'm still quite shaken. I wake up feeling lost and as though I'm in a dream. It's so damn weird.

[phenylbot]

Also I struggle daily to be motivated as nothing seems to spark my interest. The song loop in my head is constant and my short term memory is shot. These have been ongoing symptoms but I feel they've intensified since using clonazepam. It seems that this drug is the last thing I should be taking as nardil is a drug that works on gaba so hoping my gaba receptors aren't too badly effected as they may have healed a lot before the benzo was introduced.

[DataGuy]

@phenylbot thanks for the clarification. 

 

No, I don't think you should reinstate the clonazepam to taper it. It is pretty unlikely to help you long term. You may be suffering from some withdrawal, but hopefully you will be over it soon. It may have been exacerbated by the injury from Nardil. I have just read a bit more of your intro and saw that you tried to reinstate the Nardil 4 different times. I think it is a safe bet now that more meds are not the answer. Your system is very sensitive, so any psychotropic or medication that affects your nervous system (ie blood pressure meds, some antibiotics (especially the floroquinolones), HRT (certain hormones affect the nervous system) etc.) might make things worse for you. Psychotropics I think you should steer clear from entirely. None of these medications show any health benefit in clinical trials, so it is a good bet that none of them will help your condition (for which they haven't even been tested), and very likely they will make things worse. 

 

There is not much you can do other than wait things out and try to live the healthiest lifestyle you can, which means, if you can, daily exercise, regular socializing (not as possible with covid but Zoom may help), regular sleep, eating healthy, natural foods (and not too much), and trying to do something productive so you feel like you are managing things and not stagnating. I would also avoid smoking (switch to a patch or gum if you can), drinking, any sort of drug other than absolutely essential ones like insulin for diabetes or antibiotics for infections and supplements (which are mostly untested and so likely to be harmful) including teas which have a sedating or 'relaxing' effect. Caffeine is included in the drug category, since you don't want to bother your nervous system anymore. Try to establish a regular routine. Monitor your symptoms in a journal if you can (you can use your intro for this if you like). This will help you establish a pattern for the symptoms and decide if what you are doing is making them worse or better, keeping in mind that the symptoms will naturally wax and wane regardless. 

 

Do you feel like you've made any progress since you've stopped around a year ago? Can you update your signature with any drugs or supplements you've taken since then (ie the clonazepam, smoking, caffeine, any pills or teas used to sleep). Basically I want you to avoid anything that will either stimulate or relax your nervous system, as it is already having a hell of a time maintaining normal function and you don't want to throw it out of kilter like the clonazepam is bound to do (benzodiazepines as a class are neurotoxic, as are many other sedative/anaesthetic drugs, see linked article for more on that).

 

Recovery can take a long time, so the first order of business is to stabilize, determine some baseline level of functioning, and then go from there. There is no magical cure and the symptoms can last a long time (months or years, unfortunately), so the best thing you can do is avoid hurting yourself further with drugs or supplements and just let your system heal. I'm sorry you've been put through this. Most people are given no warning of what can happen when these drugs are discontinued rapidly and it's a sad reality that doctors have no idea how to treat the condition, so will often just make it worse with more drugs (thinking the person just has some DSM disorder). If you want to use the medical system to help without harming you, you might try to get them to refer you to some behavioral therapy or program you think might be helpful (maybe a CBT course on how to improve your sleep). With COVID you may be able to do this over Zoom or another app. I know it is difficult to get motivated, so anything you can do to help with that would be great. Often just doing something to make yourself feel better can help, so any of the non-drug coping techniques, or anything you personally enjoy (reading, movies, talking with people, music) may ease things. The important thing is to find a few things that help you or make you feel better so that you have something to go to when you have an uptick in symptoms. 

 

Sorry I've written so much. Have to head off now but I will check back in later. Sorry you are having such a rough time, too @phenylbot. I think things will get easier if you can stabilize and get a routine going. Good luck! 

[phenylbot]

Thanks Data Guy, You"re a huge credit to your race. I do believe that I'm now hypersensitized to all drugs and it's a real trap. Also I struggle daily to be motivated as nothing seems to spark my interest. The song loop in my head is constant and my short term memory is shot. These have been ongoing symptoms but I feel they've intensified since using clonazepam. It seems that this drug is the last thing I should be taking as nardil is a drug that works on gaba.  Hoping my gaba receptors aren't too badly effected as they may have healed a lot before the benzo was introduced. I don't get any real windows, although I sometimes feel a bit better than others. I don't know how people get through this but I suppose we have no real options. The humility I feel often ramps up my symptoms as i feel so useless right now. I had cut my smoking back before the benzo but have now started back full chimney. I'll be working on this. Someday this whole mess of medicating people for normal emotions will stop but it will be too late for this bunch. I believe md's should be barred from prescribing. Maybe a whole new classification of therapists will take over. We really need things to change.

[phenylbot]

I believe that my current symptoms mimic my most intense periods of nardil ct withdrawal. It's seems like the benzo put me back to square one. All sorts of forgotten bad memories are getting dredged up in my mind with no conscious effort. Just when I think my mind is relaxing; a new distressing  thought will pop up and put me in a downward spiral. Knots in my stomach are constant still and a pervading belief that I'll never recover sucks the spirit out of me. Hoping the short term klonopin withdrawal disaster will let up and offer some relief. Someone must have had this experience when they conjured up our classic version of hell. 

  The dysphoria is constant and motivation is sub zero. I still walk everyday but only 20-30 minutes at a time. Sleep is poor and seems to be worsening. Guess I can expect this after having to cold turkey off 30 yrs. of nardil. 

[Altostrata]

Hello, phenylbot.

 

Please hang in there. Don't blame yourself for taking clonazepam. It sounds like it shook up your vulnerable nervous system, as DataGuy said. Try to stay calm and let it settle down.

 

I noticed your screen name. Did you ever take phenibut?

 

Many people find these to be helpful:

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

You might try a low dose of one at a time to see what it does for you.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[DataGuy]

@phenylbot,

 

Sorry your suffering is so intense. It's good that you are still walking. Walking might actually be a good idea whenever you get the unwanted thoughts cropping back up. This worked well for me when I was in my acute phase. I conceptualize the withdrawal as having a constant build-up of excitatory neurotransmitters in the system, which need to get used up or they cause havoc. Exercise is a good way to use them up (you need excitatory neurotransmitters to move). I would typically just walk until I began to felt better. 

 

@Altostrata, guessing phenylbot's name derives from the generic name of nardil, which is phenelzine. Not sure if that is right, @phenylbot? This is the same drug David Foster Wallace took for a long time. We will try to keep you from suffering the same fate as he did. Withdrawal from these drugs is no joke. They have taken so much from so many people. Don't let it beat you. Just do what you have to do to survive, and things will get better. You need to trust in that. Meanwhile, best to manage symptoms in whatever way you can. There are plenty of non-drug coping skills at your disposal. Usually at least a few will help. 

[phenylbot]

Thanks Alto and Data. I really can't tell you how grateful I am for all that you do. Yes I've been aware of DFW and have been quite horrified by his story. Even with his great success as a writer he was unable to cope with the nightmare of nardil withdrawal. Of course this was before the realization by some great minds that protracted withdrawal  was a diagnosis in and of itself. It's incredibly frustrating that the medical community is not 100% accepting of this as so many lives will continue to be destroyed and lost due to added meds and ignorance about tapering. 

 

I had every intention of tapering off nardil after listening to P. Breggin and had reduced my dose to 45mg. from 60 per day. Last March (to my horror) I was unable to fill my prescription and had nothing to taper with. My gp tried me on effexor (quit after two days) than tried Zoloft (quit after two days). He than tried seroquel low dose for sleep. Again no good. People said listen to your doctor. I now know better. I've let my family know what's happened and they say they believe me but no one can really understand how soul destroying this experience is.

 

I'm trying to be a good widowed father to my wonderful daughter yet I struggle to look after myself now.

All this is exacerbated by 30 yrs. of living in a chemically altered state that I thought was due to smoking marijuana in my teen years. I deteriorated cognitively for years as i was unable to keep up with what was expected of me and what I expected of myself. I often thought I had early dementia and just kept making mistakes that took their toll on my self esteem and relationships. 

 

This will take a long time to get over and I expect there will be many hurdles to overcome as I move through it. It's hard to navigate life when fear seems to dictate my every move. I hear trucks go by at night as I try to sleep and my brain interprets the sound as a threat makes me very nervous.  Is this sound sensitivity?

[phenylbot]

Alto and Data, I just put phenylzine and robot together as this is how I viewed myself that day. I've never used phenibut. I'm wondering if my short time on clonazepam was long enough for physical dependence? This current feeling is not letting up and my sleep is getting much worse. I fall into a dream right away and wake up in apx. half an hour.  It just seems so much more intense than my nardil withdrawal in hindsight. I know the answers only come with time but I see where some people taper after short benzo use and I don't want to lose the opportunity as i did with nardil. 

 

I've tried magnesium and omega 3 but have found i can't tolerate them as of late. Maybe it's just acute withdrawal and will not develop into long term.

[DataGuy]

@phenylbot you were really on the border of whether reinstatement might help or not. But sometimes even if you have used for a long time and try to reinstate it doesn't help. I had used clonazepam for close to ten years and reinstatement just made things much worse. The drug is neurotoxic, after all. If you want to try and reinstate you could try a low dose and taper from there if it helps. But it is possible it could make things worse, so I would take maybe 1/10th of your last dose if you are going to try. Here is the link if you want to read about what we know about reinstating. I'm honestly not sure whether it will help, so it's up to you. 

 

Edit: @phenylbot just an addendum. My guess is that your system is so sensitive that the clonazepam won't help. If you cannot tolerate nardil, magnesium or fish oil then I think it is more the fact that your system is hypersensitized as opposed to becoming dependent on the benzo. But it is still your choice. Again, if you try and reinstate, only a very small dose. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by DataGuy

[phenylbot]

Don't think I'll risk it. Thanks for your reply. The benzo brought on a new crushing depression and it hasn't subsided. I read somewhere where DF Wallace used klonopin near his demise. Wish I'd researched benzo's more. i don't recall ever using one previous to this. 

[phenylbot]

Well.. I've managed to stay off clonazepam but still stricken with anxiety and depression with no one to talk to.  it's been 2 weeks now since my last dose. Maybe I'm getting back to my pre clonazepam state. Been getting about 4 hours sleep a night 10pm-2am after which I lay awake in my head bombarded with thoughts which i try not to react to.

  I get frustrated with the claim that the only way through this is with support from family and friends. I have relocated many times in my life and the most recent time (6 yrs. ago) brought me to a dead end in terms of meeting new people. I've been away from old friends so long that commonalities have expired. I believe I've always been avoidant and that's probably how I wound up medicated and depressed to begin with. I'm still quite sensitive to criticism and avoid situations that might expose me to it. This can't be such a rare condition in a world that thrives on criticizing every one. I've observed people for many years and I know how they think.

 

   Without overcoming this sensitivity I will spend the rest of my life alone. For now I am alone and need to accept that my recovery will not be aided by friends and family. I live far away from both.   On the meds I did not feel such a need for support so I was avoiding people for years as they always made me uneasy. I think acceptance of the way people are is the answer and simply moving among them without fear of criticism is the answer. I do know that I've been quite 

critical of people in the past. 

 

The neuro emotions are still coming on strong and are tough to deal with as some are plain ludicrous. I don't make any effort to bring them on; they just appear out of my tortured withdrawal brain. It's difficult to be positive but I'm looking for ways to cultivate this trait.

 

On a positive note i think my symptoms have  plateaued from the clonazepam cessation . Just need to wait it out now. Still walking although it takes a lot to get me out the door. 

 

 

 

 

 

🤑

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phenylbot]

Oh... forgot to mention bowel function has completely stopped again. It had gotten progressively better before clonazepam disaster. Ugh

[Altostrata]

Please hang in there, @phenylbot

 

Since you've had such bad reactions to drugs, it might be best to avoid them.

 

Your sleep has improved to 4 hours a night?  I know it's tough, but this is a bit of progress. Perhaps you can strengthen your sleep. 

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing the morning cortisol spike

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

White noise devices for sleep

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

Have you tried fish oil and magnesium supplements? See

https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Many people find them helpful. Magnesium taken in small doses throughout the day can be relaxing. You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[phenylbot]

Alto, Thanks for the words of encouragement. You are a beacon of hope. I'm numb from the waste up. Right shoulder pain came back ( had this early in nardil withdrawal) My brain feels like a marshmallow. New tingling in forearms. Some of this must be due to benzo withdrawal, but the symptoms are so similar to early nardil withdrawal. The rumination monster is on the loose again. I can see how a psychiatrist would have a hay day diagnosing me. It seems like I meet the criteria for many of their " shot in the dark" diagnosis. The progress I made before the benzo seems to have been erased. A whole year of healing gone. I'll continue to fight.

[DataGuy]

Hi @phenylbot. Rough, I hope things begin to improve for you soon. Is there anything you do that you find helps with the symptoms like brain fog, limb numbness, gastro upset? I have generally used exercise as a panacea for everything. Very rare when it doesn't result in some improvement for me. I was surprised when I realized it seemed to help symptoms I had no expectation it would, like gastro problems. I think there are a few other things you can try for that as well. I would try to avoid daily laxatives if you can. Best to only use those intermittently. Here are a few things you can try: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318694#water

Water, exercise, and fiber are always good recommendations. Can't say I'd recommend coffee or senna (check the reviews on drugs.com if you want to see the nightmare senna causes for many people). Prunes or prune nectar can work. You can even dilute a glass of prune nectar with water and sip it intermittently. I also found sauna seemed to help with it, as did eating more fatty foods (this may have been a bit paradoxical, as I reacted badly to carbohydrates). 

 

Certainly you can heal without much contact with others, but human relationships are generally pretty high up on the hierarchy of needs. I don't want you to think that you won't heal if you don't have a social support network. Very possible to heal all by yourself, but having some people to talk to might help to alleviate some of the depression and looping thoughts. You could always look into community programs or the aforementioned referral to some sort of therapy group. 

 

You can beat this, @phenylbot. Just need to see a bit of improvement and then you can get into a routine and go from there. 

[phenylbot]

Well it seems the symptoms have reached a new level of intensity. I now have bad headache to add to the growing list. Anxiety is through the roof full time now. 

Actually went to visit a great couple of friends that I've known for years. They were very supportive. Unfortunately they live an hour away.  I'm still struggling with the question of klonopin withdrawal vs. nervous system hypersensitivity. I've stayed off all meds and hoping that my cns will calm down.  Walking everyday still but sleep is poor (2 hrs last night) and I can't seem to take naps. If this is klonopin withdrawal, I hope it fades soon. Thanks for reading.

  

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