Oaktree1: tapering from Remeron while dealing with Cymbalta withdrawal

October 5, 2022

Hey Oaktree - good to see you!

12 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Speaking of IQ tests and their design, I did one in order to take German instead of French as a second subject with my primary degree but… haha failed the IQ test and had to do French instead.

WHAT? You had to be a certain IQ to take German? (LOL I took French, just cuz it seemed sexy) It definitely makes sense that IQ tests are related to eugenics - helping weed out the "insufficient to breed" humans.

13 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

A book came out about it in the last few years by Johanne Hari called ‘ Stolen Focus’.

Yes! That's the one I was thinking about with the "Attention Economy" - there are others, but that's the core piece. I haven't read it, either - only read about it and had discussions about it. I had a mate in the USA (that brutal Election Day in 2016) expound several of the ideas from it for me, concisely.

13 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

She wrote in her autobiography – ‘Are You Somebody?’ that when you can read you are never alone.

Yes! I really like this.

13 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

‘Cell’ a book he wrote in the 90’s about a virus that spreads through mobile phones which turns people into murderous zombies seems strangely prescient now.

OMG! Wow. Yes. My Lil Sis is a major Steven King fan, she just plowed through the Dark Tower series last year, and what she was describing to me - if I had the leisure to take it in. I still read fiction, but also lean towards biography, such as "Maus," which I am currently engrossed in. It's a graphic novel, and the print is small - but - it's a compelling story. And it's getting banned - so I'm glad my library has it! (Mirt = where to begin? I am a fan of "The Stand," which seems highly appropriate now. If you want to dive into the Netflix series - I don't know how true it is to the book)

13 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

housework is boring and repetitive. It’s not rewarding or I don’t find it so. It’s not surprising that so many women relied on mother’s little helpers to get through their day. I think it’s one of the reasons why Queen Elizabeth lived to 96 – she only had to do housework if she wanted to do it. I did read ‘Self Help for your Nerves’ written by an author highly recommend on this site – Dr Claire Weekes – a no nonsense Australian psychiatrist. She specifically refers to housework making rumination much worse. The copy I have was published in the 1970s. She said it was much tougher to treat middle aged women as most of them were at home doing housework and did not have the comfort of work which tends to stop rumination and give the brain rest.

I'm a big fan of Claire Weekes, but I've not been able to get a hold of her books (even though I'm here in Australia!). Her perspective on housework and rumination is interesting.

I did a little work in the kitchen last night - cutting up green beans. And I was reminded of why I hate to cook. It's not just the repetitive nature - I get the "washing the Baby Buddha" thing of being in the moment, of making each thing you do as mindful as you can - but that's challenging, when it is painful to stand, leaning over a kitchen bench. Cleaning is worse, stooping and pushing the mop, vacuum, scrubbing. I've managed to keep laundry pleasurable, a little bit.

Thank you for writing - it's always a delight to read your posts, even when you are struggling.

I hope you see the Sun today!

October 9, 2022

Hi Mirtazapine20mg and JanCarol

Re the question of where to begin with King - I would start with the short stories or at least that is where I started. A short story is easy in the sense that it's short. 'Full Night Night No Stars' has four relatively long short stories in the one book - they are gruesome, and quite bloody, contrary and there is a violent revenge in one of them. I started with 'Night Shift' and 'Skeleton Crew' published in the 70s and 80's respectively. They belonged to my sister and were just hanging around the house and I borrowed them - it was after I had my first official 'breakdown' in my 20's. Sometimes you might feel a bit sick after some of the stories and I am not keen on vampires (he has a few of them in the short stories) but otherwise very engrossing.

I suppose my favourite of all is 'The Shining' and its sequel 'Dr Sleep' almost as good as the original although the sequel did not get good reviews.

If you fancy something less supernatural I really loved his detective Bill Hodges which starts with 'Mr Mercedes'. There was a female character in that I really connected with - Holly Gibney - a mid life woman with a history of mental health problems still living with her parents who was being treated very badly. Bill Hodges 'rescues' her and she starts to work for him as a researcher. I connected to her a lot. Unfortunately they ruined the character when it got onto the screen, made her young and pretty and then changed her ethnicity so I could not connect anymore. Why could they not have kept her middle aged , nervous, plain and awkward?

'The Dark Tower' I haven't read. I have a problem with full blown fantasy so Tolkien went completely over my head and 'The Dark Tower' series is an alternative dystopian world so I knew it would not work for me which is a pity. Maybe you might like it though.

I was in town the other week and saw that he has another book published but I did not buy it - I really can't read fiction anymore so why bother but if you are able to, that was how I started with King.

Oaktree

October 9, 2022

I will just follow you into Stephen Kings universe. A couple of times I have experienced entering an authorship with the wrong book. I honestly do not know if I can read a book today. But I will try. Ariel, bless her (I am a bit worried), had this idea about forcing yourself back to things you used to love. I will try that. So 'Night Shift' it is :-).

Another thing, and it is for once a rather mundane question which is strictly withdrawal, mirtazapine and health related:

Like you I have hip pain. The hip pain has become a bigger problem while I have tapered mirtazapine, and I can honestly not remember if I had the problem before I began tapering mirtazapine. I also have a small difference in the length of my legs. So I went to my GP with my hip pain and he referred me to further examination in a hospital specialized in hip surgery. When I was scanned they found some wear and tear and I am due for hip replacement soon (three months or so). The orthopedic surgeons explanation for the wear and tear is the small difference in the length of my legs.

Each evening I force myself to walk 2,5 miles (I know, it is not much) to uphold some muscle strength in my hip and to sleep a little better. But it hurts and some evenings I lack the stamina.

So a couple of nights ago I took either 7,5 mg mirtazapine too much or too little because I was in doubt if I had taken 15 g pill (I take 17 mg all together). Three o’clock in the night I caved to not sleeping, and took half a 15 mg mirtazapine pill (I could only remember taking the 2 mg solution. So if I took the 15 mg pill before bed time I all together got 24,5 mg (15 + 2 + 7,5). If I did not take the 15 mg pill I got 9,5 mg (2 + 7,5).

Anyways, when I walked the next evening my hip pain was almost gone. There was a tiny little flickering in the hip but it was in no way unpleasant to walk. I must mention that I earlier thought the hip pain was mirtazapine related, because I read posts here on SA about mirt-members having joint pain. But when I got the results from the scan I ditched that theory.

Now I am not sure. Especially because I have learned that 40 percent of all people above the age 50 have hip abnormalities when scanned (without pain). So I searched SA again. First of all, there are quite a few who have joint pain/mirtazapine-combo here on SA. You referenced in one post a scientific paper about the relation between joint pain and mirtazapine, and there are a wealth of reports about joint pain/mirtazapine/arthralgia on internet.

Long story short: I won't go through a hip replacement operation if it is all down to mirtazapine withdrawal (not yet anyway). My simple question is this: Have you observed any changes in your hip pain as you went lower?

Soren

October 9, 2022

Hi Mirt (I am used to addressing you as that),

For me to be honest I cannot really say for sure. Bear in mind that I am going through menopause too and a few years ago when this started and I went to the first orthopaedic guy he diagnosed hip tendonitis which is very very common in menopausal women. A few years later I had an MRA and they said early thinning of cartilage on the acetabulum - different doctor different diagnosis. Now from the latest scan I have joint effusion - yet another diagnosis. My pain is localised in the right hip - it seems to have gotten worse over the past two years but then I have periods when I am relatively free of pain. Also I had been getting pain in my fingers until six months ago when it dissipated - the finger pain prompted me to research an article about muscle pain with Mirt. That pain is gone a few months now.

I do also get recurrent migraines - some of them are very severe. I know I get these at times of worse stress than others. Two years ago I got a mouth guard from the dentist which helps hugely- if I don't wear this I get a migraine like clockwork.

I never had migraines until I took Cymbalta but that was eight years ago and could be related to menopause too as well as the drugs I am on. It's hard to know in other words - they definitely have not gotten worse as I have gotten lower on the drug that I can categorically tell you.

Ariel has not been on here in over a month now - I do wonder how she is faring or what is happening. Maybe she is not coming back to the site. She burned very brightly while she was here.

So to answer your question - I don't know whether it has gotten worse at a lower dose - the pain that is. I commiserate with you though - hip pain is a real pain as walking and bending and sitting and standing can't be done without your hips and when you're in pain from it you can feel very debilitated. For hip pain if walking long distances just a bit of advice - don't walk through pain - that will make it worse. The physio told me that - take shorter walks - hard to do I know. Now if I get pain after a while I make myself walk back. I am thinking of investing in a bike. I am going to try out one before laying out money on it to see if it helps or causes more pain.

This video is worth a look - really helpful advice. After it I got a tight stretch band and tied it to the banister and did the exercises the physio recommended to pull the hip joint away from the pelvis - I found it really helped the pain levels - then I just do all the exercises - Youtube is fantastic - I don't where I'd be without it. I swear by physiotherapy also and physios in general. Maybe you could give it a try. Hip replacement is very hard to get where I am from - total lack of doctors here now and it's getting worse - they'll only give you one if you practically can't walk it seems to me and are bone on bone.

I haven't gotten around to answering the rest of your response and just picked the queries. Things are not great at the moment where I am. Oaktree

October 10, 2022

'Mirt' is brilliant, I actually hate my handle. In the beginning I just made it sloppily to look around SA not knowing it was such a nice place. You more than answered my questions.

First of all I am so sorry to hear about your migraines. I never had them but from what I have read and heard they are debilitating. From your signature it looks like it is almost four years since you took your last cymbalta. These drugs are criminal and I get your anger.

I am very embarrassed to say that I have been undisciplined regarding physio lately. A year ago I went to physiotherapy for quite a while, but it didn’t really help. That reinforced my theory about mirtazapine being the reason I experienced pain differently. Walking mildly off road has always been my thing, so when my hip went I was devastated. Today I have ordered exercise bands. I just ordered these: https://www.matas.dk/adidas-small-power-bands. If you have any recommendations regarding brands and such I would love to hear about them.

I can see, you know a lot more about hips than me. Here is what the radiologist wrote about my hips:

“Cartilage obliterated medially and posteriorly in both hips. Subchondral sclerosis is seen in the acetabulum, especially in the left hip. Discreet CAM deformation is seen, especially in the left hip, but to a lesser extent in the right hip. Conclusion: Osteoarthritis and CAM deformation in the left hip”

As far as I can tell a cam deformation is the same as a hip impingement. My problem is that I do not especially trust doctors anymore, not after mirtazapine, citalopram and brintellix. I used to. I try to tell myself that orthopedics is much more professionalized than psychiatry, but generally I am skeptical.

Speaking of Ariel and brightness: Do you think there is a relationship between verbal competence, creativity in general and mood swings? When I read you, @JanCarol and @Ariel and many other SA-members I am always impressed. Compared to your average blog post, SoMe post or newspaper article SA-members precision and richness of prose is lightyears ahead. I would very much like this relationship to be real: Then it is not all for nothing. I am tired tonight. And depressed. See you soon Oaktree.

October 11, 2022

Hi Mirt

Than name was originated by JanCarol and I liked it so well... I used it.

It is very late here and I was out at Tai Chi this evening - that I took up for my bad hip. I am not an orthopedic person but a physio could give you a breakdown of your scan results - that is where I go to ask everything. I am sorry that the physio you went to did not appear to have been that helpful to you. What I would say is keep trying someone until you get someone you can get on with. I can't really comment on your scan results in detail as I am just a layperson with an interest given my own hip problems.

There is some dispute about the validity of orthopedic procedures and the interpretation of results because studies have shown that some people have advanced degenerative changes in their joints and feel little or no pain while some people have minor damage and are incapacitated by pain. Even the medics admit that they don't know why this is. So yes you have degenerative changes in your joints...but who knows. I have degenerative changes in mine. I was also diagnosed with a cam impingement. Basically this means that your femoral head is jammed forward into the hip socket - that's as best as I can explain it. Sitting exacerbates this and almost any action where the knees are bent at 90 degrees or more. That's why doing the bridge posture or any posture where the hip is extended counteracts this. I find this helps to ease the pain. I also have osteophytes and a subchondral cyst too so I have a fair bit of degenerative change. Surgeons only really step in if you have limited mobility and fail the mobility tests I find - because I do a lot of Pilates and movement drills my mobility is relatively good though I still have significant pain.

What did I find helpful: - Well I bought this book I link you to for a start and did the exercises off it. This woman Susan Westlake was an IT professional in her 50's who had a strong martial arts practice. She was diagnosed with late stage hip arthritis and professed to have cured herself over a few years through correcting her postural imbalances. I do her exercises not very religiously but I do them in front of the tv

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HIP-Osteoarthritis-CAN-Cured-Treating/dp/1541100182 . They are very helpful and teach me to have proprieception of my own body to see that I am standing in balance and not overloading one joint over another. It takes time and patience to do but I quite like doing stuff like this.

I also looked at loads of videos on Youtube of this guy Matt Hsu:-

I did his programmes - be careful on the stretches of his - I found them too severe but he is so good on the hard data of pain and joint issues and knows a huge amount about the body and how to improve your muscular structure.

Ultimately though - I think it is only in psychiatry unlike other branches of medicine where there have been huge advances, where the outcomes have worsened in the past 40 years. Orthopedic surgery can give someone their life back - I would not hold out against getting a hip replacement if the pain you are suffering is severe and if conservative measures do not help. I work away at mine - I do Pilates also but I have kind of accepted that hip replacement is inevitable for me if I am lucky enough to get one. Until that happens I try and increase the mobility and strength around the joint. That is very important if one is going for surgery.

Hip surgery if done well is very successful and gives people a new lease of life. I wish to god some surgeon would offer me one. It does take around 12 months though to get mobile again so a big decision.

The main thing with a band is to get one that is relatively strong and long that you can loop around something like in the first video I sent you so that you can pull the joint in and out of the socket to get lubrication into the joint. That's in the video and what they should do in physio. You need a long strong band that is long enough for you to put you leg into and pull away from whatever you have attached the band to.

Well it is 1.30am in the morning here and I am very tired now but I answered this because I am fascinated by orthopedic stuff. In another life...well.

Yes it is very depressing to lose what once came natural i.e. painfree hip movement that restricts you in activities that you love. I had to give up dance - that was very painful - I danced all my life but I had to let go of it. So I commiserate about the walking- I can't walk long distances anymore - I just have to let go of that too - but at least I can work on all this other stuff and am learning tai chi and stuff like that - it kind of makes up for it in an way.

Hope this helps a bit

Oaktree

October 14, 2022

Decided just to post this as an aside on one of the reasons why we live in the type of world we live in.

When I was college in the early 90's, the relative who would eventually become a psychiatrist was also in college. There was a residence there run by an order of priests that was popular with the sons of the middle classes. The relative was friendly with another young middle class man from a 'good' family who is now a leading light in the film and media industry. Staying there also in the same residence was an awkward young man. He didn't really click with any of the other young men and kept to himself. When he walked up to get his food in the canteen he had a habit of moving his head up and down as he walked. The soon to be film and media man developed a 'funny' epithet for him. He called him 'the ship'. Well one morning my soon to be psychiatrist relative and his soon to be media magnate friend were down to breakfast and the soon to be media magnate suddenly announced to everyone gathered at the table 'Do you know what happened to the ship?' And everyone duly waited for the punchline which followed soon after ...'He sunk himself'... after delivery of which they all laughed royally. This young man had jumped into the Liffey and drowned himself but all he was for these future captains of industry and medicine was a joke. Both of these men are now in prominent positions in society. Neither obviously have any empathy or compassion.

I am connected to this story because this young man was studying history as I was and had one of the same history tutors as I did. He went to the professor, his tutor, a very learned expert in 18th century history to tell him how distressed he was and that he could not handle the pressure. The professor told him to calm down and that he would be fine but he obviously wasn't fine. The professor was beside himself with guilt at the young man's death because he was unusually in this world a very fine man. So when I had my first breakdown a year later this same man even though he was not my personal tutor and as such had no direct responsibility for me, did everything he possibly could for to help me. He gave me additional personal tuition on my essays, came down to the exams hall to reassure me personally - every small kindness and extra help that he could give me he gave me. He was busy man and highly regarded in academic circles but he made time for me because he was remorseful over what had happened to the young man who had drowned himself. His kindness and sense of responsibility contrast strongly with the attitude of the budding captains of media and medicine.

This evening I went for a walk in the nearly university where there are halls of residence. I passed a long bay of residences that is not well lit and faces onto a large field. I was walking on my own and there were three young men on on a second floor balcony drinking beer. As I approached one of them let out a loud deliberate sneeze to frighten me. When I came closer he did so again. I could see him sniggering to see if he had any impact on the lone female and the 'friend' beside him joined in. The boy to the side of him looked embarrassed and said nothing. As I passed the embarrassed young man said 'Hi' to me respectfully, a small act of defiance and decency. But I can guarantee you that the sneezer is the one who will rise in society.

As I continued on my walk I thought these thoughts and felt warmed by the thought that one of the biggest captains/sneezers Putin would soon wipe humans off the face of the planet and that made me feel a lot better. Fundamentally we are a broken and destructive species. There are a few decent people but they are overridden by the others.

October 15, 2022

7 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Decided just to post

... Sad but beautiful.

October 16, 2022

Hi @Oaktree1--Your post reminds me of the haiku by Issa.

“In this world
We walk on the roof of hell
Gazing at flowers”

― Kobayashi Issa

On 10/14/2022 at 3:14 PM, Oaktree1 said:

This evening I went for a walk in the nearly university where there are halls of residence. I passed a long bay of residences that is not well lit and faces onto a large field. I was walking on my own and there were three young men on on a second floor balcony drinking beer. As I approached one of them let out a loud deliberate sneeze to frighten me. When I came closer he did so again. I could see him sniggering to see if he had any impact on the lone female and the 'friend' beside him joined in. The boy to the side of him looked embarrassed and said nothing. As I passed the embarrassed young man said 'Hi' to me respectfully, a small act of defiance and decency. But I can guarantee you that the sneezer is the one who will rise in society.

You and the embarrassed boy both strike me as flowers.

Thank you for flowers 💜

Arbor

October 24, 2022

Update re supplements and sleep:

I have dropped the vitamin B supplement that I have been taking on my OB GYN's advice since 2019 following advice here that it is activating. I will monitor for any change in mood/anxiety levels.

I am down over 35% of my original dose in a year and two months roughly using small tapers following the BrassMonkey method. As of today and for the past few months I am still able to sleep the night through. In fact since last June when I got Covid my sleep has got better (thank you Covid). If I wake up early morning I can usually get back to sleep.

I went back up to 7.5mg in June 2020 from 3.75mg which I had cut the Mirt to in January 2017. Roughly two months after this my hand eczema resolved. It will be interesting to see as I go lower again towards the 3.75mg whether it returns. I am taking a quercetin supplement as this acts an anti histamine and Mirt at lower doses has a strong anti histamine effect. I am also taking Lutein as this specifically helped the eczema and I got a recommendation for it on another eczema support site.

I am getting on average one to two migraines per month. What I mean by migraine is debilitating pain in one side of my neck which migrates sometimes to one side of the front of my face accompanied by nausea. The migraine resolves slowly if I vomit and bring up bile. It generally lasts 1 to 2 days. In the last month I have also been having aesophageal reflux issues. I drink Redbush tea which can sometimes help with this.

I am 1mg away from half my original dose. As symptoms change I aim to report them here once a week.

Oaktree.

October 24, 2022

Dear @Oaktree1--Thanks for the update. I sure hope your migraines get better. I also find the Redbush tea helpful.

I send you hugs,

Arbor

October 29, 2022

Just keeping up the journal here.

Another migraine today - caved in and took Chlorpromazine Maleate as my long walk did not ease it. It is not two weeks since the last one. I am keeping a log here. Otherwise it is hard to keep track of it. I wear my mouth guard religiously but sometimes one slips through. I wake up tight through my neck and shoulders on the side I sleep on - Memo to self - to do more stretching after I get dressed

Sleep is good - 7 to 8 hours per night currently - huge dreams.

Since I have had Covid I have almost no sense of taste which is dispiriting although I wonder if the Mirt which apparently contributes to orthostatic issues has something to do with it.

Started new shockwave therapy for hip issues last week which seems promising.

Next cut planned for the 3rd November using BrassMonkey method.

I am a few months into therapy with yet another therapist (very heavy sigh). She told me it will take a 'long time'. I am in my 50's and I have had over five of them at this stage - most of them were of little help and most of them did further damage. I don't know if I am doing the right thing attending this one. I can't make up my mind so I keep attending every few weeks or so in the absence of a decision.

This therapist told me that I never 'felt safe' - yup about right so if I even have 'one person' that would be enough to 'help me'. Well I had five other people from her profession and they all royally messed up- two abandoned me or set strict boundaries well into the therapy that were equivalent to abandonment; one got out of his depth after four years of telling me never to go near psychiatry and told me to admit myself to a psyche hospital and one in my 20's told me after two years of treatment for which I had to travel a 100 miles once a week mournfully that 'it would be a long time before I could get a job'. I stopped attending him and got a job within two years - if I had followed his advice I would have been dead by now. So given that I can't make up my mind I keep attending this one every few weeks and she keeps banging on about not abandoning me but I don't trust her really at this point...but I keep going because I am lonely and frightened and it is another person to talk to even if I have to pay for it and the whole thing is a scam. I suppose it's similar to people who visit prostitutes for the girlfriend experience. It's a facsimile of the real thing but in the absence of the real thing it's all that is available.

Oaktree

October 29, 2022

Sending you hugs @Oaktree1 Luckily you have the inner reckoning to sense what's good for you and what isn't--and maybe what is just ok. Good luck with your next cut. 🌳

Arbor 💜

November 8, 2022

Update:

Last week I went for an ultrasound as my thyroid has been sore and tender for over a year. I have had an enlarged thyroid since it was first checked in hospital in 2007 with nodules but it was not sore. They told me at the time that I had nodules but there was nothing remarkable there. In 2019, I went for bloods with my OG GYN and she did the peroxidase antibodies test. My antibodies were 800 where the normal limit which is apparently 0-34. They were similarly raised when she did the bloods again in 2021 - i.e. >600.

The ultrasound exam hurt as my thyroid is now sore. The health service in the kip I am living in, is (heavy understatement here) very bad; that is very bad except for my conscientious, kind and grossly overworked GP and the attendant admin and nursing staff in her practice. The ultrasound was outsourced to some international private scan centre that is paid for by our excuse of a national health service. The guy examining me told me at the end of the scan that I either had 'iodine deficiency' or 'an autoimmune disease' and he would send the report on to my GP and she should have additional bloods done but he was wearing a mask and had a strong accent so I didn't get what these blood tests should be. I presume he was a radiologist not an endocrinologist- I was so stunned at what he said that I didn't ask. There is a 12 month waiting list (even with private health insurance) to see an endocrinologist where I am based.

So ...that was a shock .... but the end result of that is that I am certainly not going to try Lithium now given that it looks like I have a thyroid disorder. I don't know when I had first developed a goitre but it was not problematic i.e. tender or sore until the last two years.

I had cancelled the referral I did have to an endocrinologist during the lock down period of 2020 as I was afraid I would bring the virus home and infect my mother. Now I am told I have to re apply. Is there any point I wonder in seeing an endocrinologist? My last bloods showed that my T4 and T3 levels were within normal range and the GP told me that they won't give me thyroid meds unless these are not within the normal range so I don't know what an endocrinologist could do so.

I have to wait until the report comes in I suppose and then I am looking at a a year's wait to see one anyway ...Apart from my GP, I think most medical specialists are overpaid and pretty indifferent but it would be good to get a med that might help so I suppose I am stuck with it.

On another note I had my four monthly review with my local psychiatric day hospital and met yet another new doctor. That's the way it works here in the public system- you see a psychiatrist in training and they rotate every six months so you never meet anyone more than twice. Anyway this time I met a pleasant and attractive looking man in his 30's ; he looked a bit like Corey Stoll of 'House of Cards' fame - one of the few men I have seen who looks makes baldness look sexually attractive. I am long past being moved by those urges now which stopped almost completely after being put on Cymbalta in 2014 and as menopause has accelerated and things are shriveling and drying up fast, any remaining libido I possessed has now come to a complete stop. However I can still appreciate attractiveness objectively.

I used to have a sex drive but it was all with unavailable people or in my head as the sexual abuse resulted in my being unable to secure the necessary trust or courage to engage in intimacy. The fantasies I had were really awful - and all came from the abuse and that made me even more frightened of engaging. I realise this an intimate thing to write here but I don't have much to lose at this stage and I think it is important to write about the impact of child sexual abuse which does not always result in hyper sexuality. There are those of us too who chose celibacy because it's the only way we can feel safe. A pity that was not picked up on in my twenties once during my four and a half years of psychiatric care in some this countries 'top psychiatric' facilities but there you go.

Anyway I put on my usual performance for him i.e. I basically told him the truth about my life circumstance but did not tell him that I am tapering Mirtazapine because I know where that would lead hahaha. He reviewed my file and asked me given that my situation appeared to be more or less static in the past year or so whether I would consider having my file transferred back to my GP as there was probably little more that they could do for me in the day hospital. I haven't really been offered any other services there - psychological support, social prescribing etc and I've been there now nearly three years. I haven't told my GP that I am tapering either as I could be in danger of having my prescriptions cut as she is very by the book. The only worry I have is that if I had to go into hospital for any reason my prescription still shows that I am taking 15mg per day so I hope I would be compos mentis enough to advocate for myself if that happened. I saw Mark Horowitz's zoom talk in the World Tapering Day event last week and he recommended that people tell their doctors about their symptoms and how they are tapering because that is the only way that the information can get out. I am not really ready to go there yet. I don't trust doctors now , even nice ones.

I told the doctor that I would think about it and ultimately I have decided to get the file referred back. That would mean I would not have any more contact as such with psychiatry bar the reports that are already on my medical file and the fact that I am still on a disability payment which could be queried given that I am not attached to a day hospital but I will risk that if it means I can break with having to have anything more to do with psychiatry. It's not that I didn't meet some decent, kind and empathetic people while I was in the Day Hospital - I did. But ultimately all they could offer me was meds.

Other than that, I am following a version of the BrassMonkey method. I am still sleeping ok but with vivid (usually bad) dreams. Since the last migraine I am making a huge effort after rising to move my shoulders and neck which is keeping things at bay (fingers crossed). Skin a bit dry and my eyes have been itchy and bothersome for the past few days but no eczema (yet). Since I dropped the B vitamins, I can't say I have noticed a huge difference in my edginess and anxiety but to date (touching wood) I can still go to sleep. I have a half a cup of warm milk a half and hour before bed which helps. I sometimes also eat peanut butter with it - they both have tryptophan apparently which can help with sleep.

On the subject of sexual abuse yet another scandal has erupted in the kip I live in with yet another religious teaching order in the past few days. One side of my family of origin were quite intimately involved with one particular school affiliated to this order for decades. It was a popular elite boy's school with a strong emphasis on rugby as were a lot of the posh boys schools in this kip. One of my grandfathers and his sons and their male offspring and the men some of their female offspring married went to that school too. I remember it as a child because I stayed in my grandfather's house a lot and he had this 'friend of the family' a priest from the school who came to dinner every Saturday night. My grandfather was a GP for this school for a long period. Well I heard all about the abuse on a national phone in show today - it was disgusting. The group of predator priests seem to have picked on vulnerable boys whose parents had scrimped and saved to send them to the school and as such were more vulnerable. The predators didn't pick on the children of 'the people who mattered'. I won't recount the horrible details of happened here other than one awful detail that is particularly repugnant. The school being fee paying and privileged had a photographic society and some of the priests involved in the abuse took photos of some of the children and these were developed in the school's private photographic studios. One of the victims said today that in order for the film to be developed they must have had to have cooperation. The photos were obvious, photos of the children from the waist down. Not all of those priests knew how to develop film so it appears to have been a ring and it went on all during the 1970s, 80s and 90s. The men who spoke on the radio - ....well after the abuse their lives were pretty bad - full of addictions, nervous breakdowns and failed relationships and all these priests are dead now so they can't be got at. The men had to sign non disclosure agreements after they got 'paid off'. That was the last part of my childhood happy memories gone right there....everything I grew up with was rotten. One of my wider family members remained very involved with the school. He is one of the people who matter - but he is not a bad guy. He helped me get a job once after my father washed his hands of me after I got out of a mental hospital and was considered human garbage as a result. That took a degree of decency. Only for that man I would not have got employment at all.

Side story about the priest who came to dinner. I had always thought of him as a family member but after I had a breakdown in my 20's, I asked him for help. I told him about the psychotic episode and asked him whether it was actually God talking to me (I still believed in God back then). He looked horrified and said 'well it was probably a bit of the golden light of Gods love' and then he got the hell out of the place I was staying in. A few months later I asked him for help again to get a job in publishing. He was widely published and regarded as a Catholic intellectual of some note. He had a fixation on some class of female visionary (I can't remember her name but she was some modern Catherine of Sienna type - an upper class gel who had 'visions'.) I'm a bit jaundiced about religion in general and its relationship to madness. If one person has a vision it's a psychotic state but if there's a few of them it's a religion.

Well I never heard back from this priest who had been such a fixture in my life growing up that he once came to Christmas dinner the year my parents split up. He ignored my letters and phone calls. But I never thought that anyone from the school in which he taught for years would be involved in something like that. The place was always held up to me as a beacon of all that was right with the world growing up - hahahahahaha. I did a child's summer course there. I drove up their a few times as a child with one adult or other. And during my one psychotic break in my 20's when I was nutty as a fruitcake, I saw it as a safe place. I had been on a very high dose of Dothiepin for a year when this happened. I thought at the time that I was possessed so I went up to this school and asked to see the headmaster and then I asked him if he could exorcise me - yes I was totally nuts. And in fairness to the man he was very kind to me; I spoke about my grandfather whom I missed who had died a few years previously. I was trying to go back to a place where I had felt safe as a child. He was very kind to me and gave me a blessing. And off I went still psychotic until I got put on Melleril a week or so later.

Well so much for just doing symptomatic information but I want to mark this down somewhere...I am very, very, very angry about it. I always feel angry when vulnerable people are victimised by power. They're all bleating about it all over the airwaves now but it's much too late. These priests are dead with fulsome eulogies. The victims are in their 50's and 60s - the best part of their lives are over. The abuse show has been moved to other quarters - to the children who are being forcibly drugged by the medical profession with full cooperation of their parents or foster parents some of whom who don't know any better and some of whom should but just want a compliant child that's easier to manage. That's child abuse right there and few people are talking about it and they won't either until it's all over and the damage is done in 30 or 40 years time - if our species is still around. Hopefully it won't be.

November 9, 2022

Oh Oaktree!

Thyroid problems! I had the same! Lithium made it worse, for sure. I had a goitre from the 90's until it was removed in '08. By the time they removed it, if I lifted my arms over my head, my face would go white - circulation to the head was cut off. Maybe I could have prevented removal, maybe not - but if I knew then what I know now, I would have tried.

Start here: stopthethyroidmadness.com Also the website VeryWell has sound medical advice for thyroid. Start here: https://www.verywell.com/lies-about-thyroid-treatment-3232916 and you will find links to articles of your interest.

There are a number of dietary interventions, as well. It's been so long ago now, that I've forgotten them. But I miss my thyroid, and wonder if my headaches and neck pain are related to the removal of it, and my inability to sing. If you have the chance to try and ameliorate your symptoms with diet, I encourage this.

I may have posted this before, but wanted to cover my bases. It's a teaching day, so just a quick note.

Oh - and anger? Righteous anger? In Chinese medicine we speak about "appropriate use of anger." That you expressed it here is healthy and good. Are there other places you can express it? Can you turn your anger to activism (or is that too frightening?)? I think what burns me is the number of decades it took for this to come out. Grrrrrr!!!!!!!

I hope you see the sun today.

JC

ps Mirt - yes. Creative and expressive people are more likely to be diagnonsensed and drugged. We don't fit the mold.

November 15, 2022

Good luck with your thyroid issues @Oaktree1. I hope they resolve soon.

On 11/8/2022 at 11:59 AM, Oaktree1 said:

I always feel angry when vulnerable people are victimised by power.

Yes, yes, yes.

Arbor

November 15, 2022

On 11/9/2022 at 1:52 AM, JanCarol said:

Thyroid problems! I had the same! Lithium made it worse, for sure. I had a goitre from the 90's until it was removed in '08. By the time they removed it, if I lifted my arms over my head, my face would go white - circulation to the head was cut off. Maybe I could have prevented removal, maybe not - but if I knew then what I know now, I would have tried.

Start here: stopthethyroidmadness.com Also the website VeryWell has sound medical advice for thyroid. Start here: https://www.verywell.com/lies-about-thyroid-treatment-3232916 and you will find links to articles of your interest.

JanCarol,

Thanks very much for sending me on this info. I have purchased the book about Hashimotos 'Taming the Beast' and have had the requisite bloods done. Basically after reading all of the info. on the site you recommended, it appears I have had hashimotos thyroiditis for years but it was not diagnosed even though my peroxidase antibodies were hugely raised. Once I get the blood results back I will ask my GP for lose dose Naltrexone and natural dessicated thyroid. Both can shrink nodules and reduce antibodies. The GP may not give them to me but I can at least ask. There was a functional medical GP up the country who specialised in prescribing these but he's gone awol and there isn't anyone else in the whole country it seems that does so. Otherwise it appears I am going to have to change my diet as the link with gluten seems very clear and I more or less live on crackers and bread and cheese. I eat them three times a day. That will be a tall order - the diet change - but I am going to try anyway. It's going to take a fair bit of work - working out new recipes but at least I will feel I am taking action.

It might be too late for me too Jan. The nodes are very enlarged and quite visible and swallowing I notice them and I can't wear anything tight around my neck anymore. The pain goes down into my upper sternum. I am very sorry that you had to have a thyroidectomy - particularly someone who loves music as much as you do. Life can be extraordinarily cruel - one just has to roll with it.. I have heard that vagus nerve stimulation helps - it might help with your own situation - massaging your feet is one way of stimulating it if you can't sing anymore. I always calm down when I massage my feet - it's weird.

I am to have another ultrasound three months to see if they've grown further. I just didn't bother about it because no doctor ever said it mattered even when I had the goitre in 2007 - now i wonder if the chronic pain and tiredness I got back then could have been linked to the thyroid given that I had a goitre back then but they never did the bloods other than the TSH and the T4 so there's no way of knowing. I was just diagnosed with fibromyalgia and then a psychiatrist was wheeled in at the end of my hospital physical investigations.

Anyway it will be interesting thinking up new recipes and seeing if they make a difference so I appreciate you sending me this.

Re the 'righteous anger' I wrong a vicious email to the main paper where there was an opinion column from someone who had gone to that school and had his son in there. The article was partly an attempt to exonerate the past pupil's association. Some of the people who rang in said they were more or less ostracised by the past pupils association as their abuse stories did not fit in with the school's old boy image of themselves as successful masters of the universe from the best of all possible worlds yada yada yada.

That's as far as I got with the activism...better than nothing...

Oaktree

November 23, 2022

Update:

My last cut did not go well. I had been sleeping ok but insomnia set in within a day of the cut. My rumination and anxiety has greatly worsened. Eczema has appeared on one of my thumbs. I am monitoring it and hope it will not get worse

The auto immune Hashimoto's diagnosis a few weeks ago was a shock; but last week I also had a small car accident. I left the breaks off while opening gates and the car went forward and crushed me against the gate. I went to a private A&E (people being advised to stay away from the public one due to overcrowding). Thankfully no bones were broken. I have bad bruising on my knees and surrounding areas. It was pretty terrifying as it happened in darkness and I had to walk up a drive to get back to the house.

If I had not been ruminating intently on how to deal with Hashimotos and how I could negotiate how to get the necessary meds from my doctors the car accident would not have happened. My father said nothing to me about the diagnosis as he doesn't have any interest. I did not hear from my sister either though she sent a card last week after the car accident. She prefers to keep it distant like that rather than make actual contact with me. I get the occasional text also.

I have found it so hard to accept the situation but it is necessary to accept that people are the way that they are and that you will not change them. That is the biggest lesson I have learnt in the past five years - kindness will not change people, being angry with them will not change them. The only thing one can do is separate and observe; watch oneself and do what Mirt20mg calls 'disinterested politeness'. the current therapist and the previous ones all said the same thing to me 'it is not safe for you to be angry around family members' and that has really sunk in now. The anger outbursts I had in the past came from hurt and the hope that if they saw how I felt they would relent and show me some kindness. Nope - life doesn't work that way. If you have what is called 'an anger outburst' that makes things 10 times worse.

I studied the dietary requirements of Hashimotos - i.e. no gluten or dairy - and bought some gluten free bread - it would be better to have no bread at all rather than eat that - it was awful stuff. I am due to see my GP today about the hashimotos. Changing my diet would cause additional stress. I don't think I would be up to it. I love bread. There are so few things in life now that give me a bit of joy - a few moments in nature and the TV - that's it really.

I don't know whether the eczema is connected to the drop in the drug or not.

My hip pain came back in the last week and has been very bad and a new thing has developed - something I never suffered from before. I am becoming a nervous driver - I was never a nervous driver and was very relaxed behind the wheel; it was one of the few places I felt relaxed. Now that's gone. I feel vulnerable in the car. People drive so aggressively and I notice I am starting to drive slower and slower. Perhaps it is age...perhaps it is the culmination of the isolation of the past few years added to by the enforced isolation of the pandemic. I have noticed that I am actively avoiding going out.

I feel pretty hopeless about my situation. I have been trying not to post too negatively here in the past while but the last two weeks have not been good.

I am going to post a few positives - my tai chi class is good and I also found a way of dealing with intense distress. I have a largish rubber ball and I sit on the floor and just squeeze it in my hands and try and just focus on that and it can calm me down. I concentrate on the physical sensations of it. I am grateful also that i have currently enough to eat and a roof over my head.

Oaktree1

November 23, 2022

Hi Oaktree. Gosh, sorry about the car accident but you did not break anything, that's good. Just take it very easy for a while. I've gotten rashes here and there from Mirt. Hip pain awakens when I make a cut too. Normally I do not have hip pain. My hip and knee pain calms down when I'm holding the dose. My hold is now at one month and a half and I feel pretty good. I'm an introvert so I like to avoid too many people too. The tai chi class should be excellent for calming down. I would like to try one one day. Be well. Marie.

November 25, 2022

On 11/23/2022 at 5:49 PM, marie123 said:

My hold is now at one month and a half and I feel pretty good.

Hi Marie,

Thanks for commenting on my thread. I follow your own with interest. You have made significant progress. I agree that holding as long as it takes to feel stabilised is a very good idea. I am going to hold for another two weeks at least and see how things are then. Maybe I will hold further. Tai Chi is well worth trying if you can find a good teacher.

I hope your taper continues apace with as little symptoms as possible.

all the best

Oaktree

November 30, 2022

Weekly Update:

Good or goodish stuff first: - my sleep regularised three days ago on Sunday. In other words I started being able to sleep 6-7 hours again. My eczema has not gotten any worse and appears to have cleared slightly on my thumb. I also found a gluten free bread that is edible - i.e Schar - not cheap but at least it makes goodish toast in the morning.

I did buy chia seeds and almond milk and made a chia seed pudding - it was disgusting. Life is hard enough without having to eat desiccated frogspawn. The almond milk - well I tasted it but it was vile - I would not put that in anything. Still I tried it and I am trying to incorporate more vegetables into my diet - yesterday I did mushrooms with garlic and parsley. I hate throwing food out and hate wastage generally so the birds get all the left over or unwanted food but I don't see them eating the almond milk - I will put it in a bowl. They won't touch margarine as they know it's not food - not even the crows will eat that.

Mushrooms apparently cause histamine but I no longer care - they were delicious. I have also cut back on cheese but still use a small bit of milk in my tea. I have switched to oatcakes from water biscuits - not too hard. Today was a tough day so I had a white bread sandwich. I am not going to go all out on the diet as that would cause more stress and I understand that stress is a huge factor also in thyroid problems.

As I expected my GP refused to issue me with natural dessicated thyroid and Naltrexone. She said that she was only trained to prescribe the synthetic T4 one - Levothyroxne and the only other treatment that she knows about is thyroidectomy for which I need referral to an endocrinologist. T4 is not recommended for Hashimotos so there's no point even in waiting for the 15 months it takes to see an endocrinologist because synthetic T4 is the only thing they offer in this country. The laboratory had to send the additional thyroid bloods to the UK as they have no facility for culturing the T3 and Thyroid stimulating immunoglubulin in the entire country.

I am waiting for an appointment when I get the bloods back with another GP up the country who will prescribe me with NDT but as my GP won't give it to me that means I can only get it privately and it costs €97.00 per month which is a huge amount of money to me. I have a medical card and only pay a nominal amount towards my drugs every month. I will have to see. It would want to make a big difference to my health. My thyroid is sore a lot of the time. The other good news is that my peroxidase antibodies came down from over 600 in 2021 to 248 in the recent bloods so that is an improvement. I had a good German OB GYN who suggested supplements to me in 2019. Now that I have been taking them for several years I realise they are all related to bringing thyroid peroxidase antibodies down. She was a very good doc.

My knees have mostly recovered and I resumed the Tai Chi. It's damn hard and so completely opposite to the exercises taught in the West - it's all about loosening, loosening the waist, the hips, the shoulders. We do the opposite in the West - when I do I a Pilates online class, it's all tighten, tighten, tighten - your core, your behind - everything. It's all zip it up and hold it in a state of tension - it's so weird that the Chinese teach the opposite. All the preparatory exercises are based on loosening the waist and relaxing the lower back. How can you have two opposites? Anyway Tai Chi is around longer than Pilates so...I am continuing. The teacher is really excellent and has trained in China (though is not Chinese). If I moved away I doubt I would find a teacher as good as him. I find I can really forget about a lot of stuff when I am in his class and it is nice to meet a few other people in a normal setting. What I really like about Tai Chi is the complete lack of ego involved in it. I used to do a lot of exercise classes before my hips packed it in and there was a lot of unspoken competition that I was an active participant in - who could hold the plank without giving up? Who could lift the most? Who had the coolest leggings and nicest hair style? That is all irrelevant in the Tai Chi class - it's relaxing although I still miss being able to to aerobic exercise at the high level I did before. There is nothing like the release of being completely out of breath and spent from HIIT and if it is done to loud dance music all the better. That is a loss but at least I can still walk and do Tai Chi and Pilates.

So that is the goodish news. The bad news of course is the oncoming festive season which I dread because of the bad family dynamic and because of my current life circumstances. Also the ongoing decision that is now pressing that I will have to make about my living situation. I find I am still unable to make a decision on that one.

I have suicidal ideation on and off and I don't really feel any sense of hopefulness but I just go on moment by moment. Sometimes I get the memory of the way I used to be and it surprises me.

Today I rejoined the peer support group I used to be a member of. I will not return. On two occasions in this organisation in the past when I was actively distressed, I was treated very badly. I went back today for lack of anywhere else and because I felt I needed to make an effort not to be a complete recluse but being back in there today brought the memories back and I realised that it wouldn't work. I thanked one of the organisers by text - he was kind.

The problem with peer support groups and I've been to a few of them... there is an expectation of finding immediate intimacy and support and most groups encourage total strangers to open themselves up to others and share intimate details of their lives. I have found in the times that I have been in these groups that there would be an immediate but false intimacy based on a supposed shared past of trauma and difficulty but that would not necessarily lead to friendship. This group I was in today is based on the principles of AA membership. AA seems to work well except that in my area it has caused a lot of marriage breakdown as married people attending it seem to have a propensity for having affairs with other members.

Today in the group a woman became visibly distressed and started to cry openly. The two other female members immediately gathered round her and one of them started to rub her back and comfort her. I was told she had only been attending for a few weeks and had said little. It clearly worked to calm her down a bit but I wondered at it a bit - there was the immediate intimacy - I hope that the group will not let that woman down subsequently now that she has opened herself up because that was my own experience. In the last 12 years I have become very wary of people in general and wary of sharing. I do it here as it's anonymous more or less. Still I do feel that I overshare to relative strangers and that is largely because I don't have intimate connections with others I think. I don't know but I know that I overshare.

Other than that no other new symptoms except the same anxiety that can be very unpleasant at times and ongoing hip pain. I haven't attended for shockwave therapy in over two weeks since the car accident and the hip pain is back in a big way. Still seeing an othopaedic man in December so he may suggest something...or not.

I am grateful to good old Samuel Beckett whose childhood home sold for an obscene sum in the past few months 'I can't go on...I'll go on'. He wrote all about z list people - the old, the crippled, those marooned literally in bins or permanently marginalised states and saw the humanity in them. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered writing about them I suppose. That allows me in some small way to have a small bit of self- compassion.

Will update again in a week or so. I think I may cut again this week. The lower you go on Mirt the harder it gets apparently and I've got a long way to go yet, not even half way there and I'm tapering a year and four months now.

Oaktree1

December 4, 2022

Eczema posting: dermatologists are pretty useless in this area.

I am posting specifically to eczema which I got in March 2018 when I was still on Cymbalta and Mirtazapine. My liver enzymes were very raised. I tried to manage it conservatively by using topical moisturisers and finally got a steroid ointment Fucibet (the only one that ever worked from my GP). My hands and feet were split and bleeding. Six months into trying to manage it and not being able to put on my clothes without significant discomfort because my hands were so sore, I went to a very expensive dermatologist. He gave me a prescription for yet another steroid cream and advised a cream that i had to use six times a day called Calmurid, a mixture of lactic acid and urea. He told me that it should clear up if I used it as directed within six weeks. I followed his directions and my hands and feet became raw sore and dry and kept bleeding. Lactic acid encourages your skin to shed and urea is meant to moisturise them but both ingredients irritated and dried my skin further.

I went back to the very expensive dermatologist and was sent for very expensive allergy testing to an outside company of which he was a director (presumably as a legal tax avoidance measure). I came up as allergic to products that I had never been allergic to in my life - nickel, nail polish etc. He wrote a report to my GP stating that the nail polish was the culprit.

The eczema continued unabated. He told me that the only other option for me was immuno suppressant drugs. At this point, I realised he could do nothing further for me and there was no way I was adding drugs this toxic to the toxic mix I was already on. That was in November 2019. The eczema continued until July 2020 when it started to abate. I think this was related to my upping the Mirtazapine to 7.5mg from 3.75mg in June 2020. Mirtazapine has strong histamine effects on the body - the skin is affected by histamine issues. By June 2020 I was also off Cymbalta for a year and four months also. I did originally get eczema when I was on Cymbalta but I had lowered the Mirtazapine from 7.5mg in January 2017 to 3.75mg.

I had gone to see yet another dermatologist to ask if I could have light therapy for my hands and feet in July 2020 but he said it was impossible as the eczema was on my palms and the soles of my feet. He prescribed me with what I subsequently discovered was an immuno suppressant ointment.

Around a year into getting the eczema I also became allergic to shampoo, even so called non allergic ones. I only started being able to use shampoo again in the last seven months.

I tried around five different steroid ointments only one of which - Fucibet - made any real difference.

After trying loads of different moisturising products by La Roche Posay, Cerave, Bag Balm, O 'Keeffe's working Hands, Eucerin, common or garden emulsifying ointment, and I forget what others I finally discovered by examining the ingredients of each that I was allergic to urea, lanolin, perfume or any kind, Dimethicone, urea and lactic acid. I finally found one that worked - Aveena Dermexa balm which has colloidal oatmeal in it.

i wrote about eczema before but as I am now getting lower to my original dose of Mirtazapine it could become a factor again so I am bumping it I want to document here also that neither dermatologist asked me about my other blood work, diet or general health and one dermatologist specifically said diet would have no impact on the eczema. Neither of them referenced the psychotropic drugs I was on as having any bearing on the eczema. The more I deal with doctors particularly consultants in general the less respect and trust I have in them. You pay big money (at least in this country ) to see them; most of them are absurdly arrogant, obscenely money hungry and in my own case, in this instance anyway pretty useless.

Since I have mostly cut the gluten I notice that my bowel motions are more normal looking but I miss bread so I allow myself half a slice a day.

Oaktree1

December 6, 2022

Hey Oaktree! I've been reading but haven't put together 2 minutes to respond until today.

So much of your fatigue & symptoms could be related to your thyroid (including tendon problems!) - I'm proud of you for making efforts to try and heal your thyroid. I also understand the "band of doctors" who will thwart you at every turn. I had to find special doctors - and I drive, and even can have hubby take me to a doc if it's out of my comfort range. You don't have a hubby to help you - but - in this post-COVID era, there is a lot of telemedicine going around - you may be able to consult with a doctor far far away, maybe even in another country - and get what you need.

On 11/16/2022 at 6:15 AM, Oaktree1 said:

Re the 'righteous anger' I wrong a vicious email to the main paper

GOOD ONYA! Did it get published? It had to feel good to write, at the very least.

On 11/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Oaktree1 said:

bought some gluten free bread - it would be better to have no bread at all rather than eat that - it was awful stuff.

OH YES. There is wide variability between GF bread and GF bread. About 70% of it is worse than eating cardboard. However, with persistence and trying different brands, you may be able to find one you like. We have 3 brands here in Oz that are acceptable, even if not as yummy as a full whole-wheat bread. It helps to get one with seeds & "wholegrain" - they improve the texture of the bread and break up that cardboardy taste.

(I was watching "Dancing at Lughnasa" with Meryl Streep, and sadly, I was drooling when I saw them get out the soda bread....)

It's the same with rice crackers. Plain rice crackers, even flavoured ones, get old very fast. But at Aldi (do you have Aldi on PLUTO?) I can get "wholegrain rice crackers" which have some texture and flavour to them, making them edible.

After 5 years of no proper bread, I'm starting to warm up to a few of the GF options. Fortunately, Big Food has recognized the value of GF, and so there is more competition and options than there were just 5 years ago. Don't know the state of things on PLUTO, but Oz is at the ends of the earth - early adopters, but tyranny of distance, and a tiny market (so there are not as many choices as I had in the USA).

But I do agree that gluten - especially wheat - is particularly toxic to the gut, the thyroid, all kinds of systems. And knowing this - I am in awe of how much of our culture is built around wheat. It's Christmas - let's get together! This means cookies and cakes, casseroles & noodles, breads, crackers, chips & dip. It is practically impossible to celebrate with others without wheat being there. Walking the aisles of the grocery - I can go down each one, and proclaim that fully 90% of that aisle is full of toxic wheat. And - now that I no longer eat it, I find it appalling that all of these people around me eat that noxious stuff!

On 11/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Oaktree1 said:

Changing my diet would cause additional stress.

I'm the same. Because I live with hubby, I had to do a "food divorce" and not eat all the awful stuff he eats. Every time I think about changing anything in my diet - which has been years of careful curation to learn what works - it's terrifying. About the only thing I can change without stress now is when I fast, and for how long.

On 11/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I don't know whether the eczema is connected to the drop in the drug or not.

It can be. Many people have had severe skin distress upon withdrawal. Here's one topic: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/611-skin-issues-hives-acne-dryness-etc/ I'm sure there are others.

And yes, I've found MD's to be useless when it comes to my mysterious skin ailments. Chinese medicine says look to the bowel/gut and the kidneys when your skin doesn't clear. Chinese medicine has never had to deal with all of the myriads of effects these antidepressants have, though.

We were just discussing this on Angela9985's thread. She has had some rashes come up that frightened her, and we have reassured her that yes, this can be another effect of withdrawal. You may want to have a read there, we had a good discussion about skin issues.

On 11/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Oaktree1 said:

My hip pain came back in the last week

You know, we were talking about: does Mirt cause pain problems?

My answer, after thinking about it for some time, is that all of the antidepressants do. I suspect it has something to do with robbing the body of collagen. Especially with long term use. I can't prove it - but - in my own life, a number of problems can be tied in with depleted collagen: some of my bowel issues, the sadness of my skin, and easy-to-injure joints. Maybe even this "metabolic disorder" thingy.

On 11/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I am becoming a nervous driver - I was never a nervous driver and was very relaxed behind the wheel; it was one of the few places I felt relaxed. Now that's gone. I feel vulnerable in the car. People drive so aggressively and I notice I am starting to drive slower and slower. Perhaps it is age...perhaps it is the culmination of the isolation of the past few years added to by the enforced isolation of the pandemic. I have noticed that I am actively avoiding going out.

Oh. I'm sorry. Did this come up after you got smacked by the gate?

I agree that the pandemic may be related. It isolated people in their own little bubbles - most people got very disconnected during that time. That, and devices, and most people think that they are the centre of the universe, and if you are not in their flow, get out of the way. Empathy is at an all time low.

So - while I haven't noticed more aggression on the road here, I have noticed more aggression in person. Not in my circles, but when my people tell me what their families are doing - I'm a bit shocked at what seems to be "normal," now.

I was just thinking about driving yesterday. Sometime in between my 10th and 15th accidents (some of them were crackers) I started getting nervous on the road. So I turn that anxiety into vigilance, and I breathe into zen mind. I will get there when I get there. I stay within the rules - not too fast, not too slow, obey traffic regulations. And if other people get angry and aggro with me - let them. Breathe. Vigilance. Pay attention. NOT MY PROBLEM! (NMP!)

It's been a few decades since a road rage has followed me home (that happened to my first husband - but he was kind of aggro to begin with), so I feel pretty safe within the cabin of the car, which is designed to protect my body, even if a mad road-rager crashes into me. It would be awful and traumatic, but I would live & lose my car. As much as I love it, it's just a car.

On 11/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I have a largish rubber ball and I sit on the floor and just squeeze it in my hands and try and just focus on that and it can calm me down. I concentrate on the physical sensations of it.

AH! What a great tool!

I have been looking for Chinese meditation balls. We have a pair around here somewhere. I was studying my Qigong texts, and learned that working with the balls can lower blood pressure. This tells me that it helps switch on the parasympathetic nervous system, is calming, and a good practice.

b53cb4b0-70bd-4e4e-95af-4f401936022a_1.3

On 11/24/2022 at 3:49 AM, marie123 said:

I would like to try one one day.

Marie - you can start like Oaktree did, with Dr. Paul Lam videos. He is a gateway for many people, and while his methods are simpler and pared down from conventional tai chi, they have worth.

You do learn more from a teacher, live, in the studio, where s/he can see your body and help you maximise your instruction - but you can still learn even if you don't have access to one. If you go to tchi.org, you may be able to find a Paul Lam instructor in your area.

On 12/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, Oaktree1 said:

I did buy chia seeds and almond milk and made a chia seed pudding - it was disgusting. Life is hard enough without having to eat desiccated frogspawn.

😄😂🤣😂

I tried that too. Where I have settled with the chia is to add 2 tablespoons to my red or black rice to increase the protein. In rice, the slime is absorbed by the starch! I can't stand it in anything else (except maybe smoothies, which I no longer eat because they are too high carb).

I remember my little sister raving about "chia pudding" but - your description of it is literary and accurate. Dessicated frogspawn! 🤪😂🤣

On 12/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, Oaktree1 said:

only trained to prescribe the synthetic T4 one - Levothyroxne

The Verywell site I sent you to says - it's better than nothing! That taking T4 will help you slow the problems.

I have a friend in Thailand who sends to Turkey for his thyroid medication . . . he calls it: liothyronine (T3?). I had never heard of it, so thought I would mention it here, in case you run across it in your research.

I have to take the NDT because - without a thyroid, I was not converting the T4 to T3. My doc said she could add T3, but the NDT is full spectrum and most closely matches what my own thyroid would produce.

NDT is available in the US over the counter. You may be able to order some in cheaply? (a quick check, 100 capsules for about US$40-50). Do a search for "thyroid glandular" but do not get a compound (with B vitamins and co-factors, blah blah) If you do this, you will need to adjust your T4 dose to compensate. Sssssssh!

On 12/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, Oaktree1 said:

The other good news is that my peroxidase antibodies came down from over 600 in 2021 to 248 in the recent bloods so that is an improvement

So do you reckon that your dietary adjustments did this? And have you started the T3? Please put in your signature, as we want to watch your healing!!!!

On 12/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, Oaktree1 said:

The problem with peer support groups and I've been to a few of them... there is an expectation of finding immediate intimacy and support and most groups encourage total strangers to open themselves up to others and share intimate details of their lives. I have found in the times that I have been in these groups that there would be an immediate but false intimacy based on a supposed shared past of trauma and difficulty but that would not necessarily lead to friendship.

I have always hated group therapy. It always seemed like I was more clued in than the therapist, and that I didn't belong there. There are a number of 12-Steppers here on SA who have found value in the process, but it has its limitation.

What you write here reminds me of a few "weekend encounter" groups I've attended. You feel like besties during the weekend, and never contact each other again in real life.

Can you attend with no expectations? Just to be among other warm bodies and listen to stories? And maybe some of the stories will resonate with you, even if you never share? I'm currently watching Elementary, Season Six, and poor Sherlock is struggling with his 12-Step meetings and purpose of life.

Not to find a friend, or even seeking intimacy - just to attend and hang for something to do, to be around people?

On 12/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, Oaktree1 said:

My knees have mostly recovered and I resumed the Tai Chi. It's damn hard and so completely opposite to the exercises taught in the West - it's all about loosening, loosening the waist, the hips, the shoulders. We do the opposite in the West - when I do I a Pilates online class, it's all tighten, tighten, tighten - your core, your behind - everything. It's all zip it up and hold it in a state of tension - it's so weird that the Chinese teach the opposite. All the preparatory exercises are based on loosening the waist and relaxing the lower back. How can you have two opposites?

This sounds like an excellent tai chi teacher!!!!!! YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!

Yes, I love the ego-less nature of tai chi. Yes, we do a little bit of fashion parade, but it's "hippy style" - love the stone ring on your finger, those are colourful jungle pants, that was a great band (t-shirt). The teacher shows up in ratty shorts (really ratty - sometimes I wonder how they stay on!) and a polo shirt. And it's all about what we can learn. It's a beautiful group, great camaraderie in the hall, and very tuned in, delightful people (but I don't see them outside of class or Christmas parties!).

The relaxation thing is key. Tai chi is all about flow - getting the meridians to flow through the joints. This is the source of all health - removing blockages, being loose, flowing and free. In Taoism, they teach that pelvic alignment is the secret to Longevity (I'm still working on this!). Last night, my teacher was talking about how all power comes from flow through the joints, and the rotation of them towards, rather than against, gravity. He is against strength training, against "zipping it up." And would scold me if he caught me planking or doing push ups!

I started training in hard styles back in the 80's, taekwondo and karate. When I first started learning tai chi in the 90's, I had a series of dreams where this little old Chinese man would keep taking me down. All my hard style defence training was worthless against him. No matter what I did, this little old Chinese man would turn my attacks against me. I never have beaten that little old tai chi master - I still have a LOT to learn!

Hang in there, dear Oaktree - you're making incredible steps towards your recovery, and your "one foot in front of the other" approach will carry you far.

I hope you see the sun today!
JC

Edited December 6, 2022 by JanCarol

December 6, 2022

On 11/30/2022 at 5:54 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I did buy chia seeds and almond milk and made a chia seed pudding - it was disgusting. Life is hard enough without having to eat desiccated frogspawn. The almond milk - well I tasted it but it was vile - I would not put that in anything.

Finally, someone is telling the truth! 🙌 Tried once, not twice!

Having some issue to read all your updates but wanted to come on your thread to thank you for your kind support and offering you mine ❤️

Will try later... but can already thank you for making me smile with this one!

December 14, 2022

Hi JanCarol and Erell,

Thanks for replying to me.

JanCarol - thanks for the Aldi recommendation re rice crackers (think we call them cakes here as opposed to crackers). Doing a food divorce must be tricky but I suppose it has to be done to accommodate everyone's own dietary needs. Afraid I fell off the gluten free band wagon a few days ago.

I am in a really frightful wave and I am very scared...actually feel a lot like you have been describing the past few weeks Erell. I discovered that I had been using too much liquid in my measuring cup. The glass beaker when compared to the common plastic beaker contains 3ml of additional liquid and has done since I started doing the taper. I am not great at maths or measurements. I had been using the syringes but presumed that the syringes were off. They're not - its the glass measuring jug - volumetric container - whatever that is off. I measured the liquid using the syringes into two different plastic measuring jugs; I tried two different types of syringes. The original glass jar I have been using since the start of the taper last August 2021 is over by 3ml. That means I diluted the solution in 33ml rather than 30ml (which would have been the correct amount). So that means that I am now not at 4.2ml but 3.82ml.

I have not slept properly in five days and I am terrified. The only time I can calm down is when I leave the house but I had a bad panic attack in the car on the way to a medical appointment last week. I have never had a panic attack in a car before. My arms got stiff and went cold and my muscles locked from fear. I thought I was going to lose control of the car and this happened while on a particularly dangerous motorway intersection. I got myself through it by driving really slow and saying that I was going to be allright but I was very shook after it. I got told that at the appointment that a hip replacement could be offered to me because of my hip issues and arthritis - I am due to go for an injection of cortisone next week but I am having trouble functioning now.

I had a massive bust up with a family member today - have been on my own for four days and the temperatures are sub zero (very unusual) so I haven't been able to get out until today. Unfortunately I don't have anyone in my family that I can trust or rely on - even my mother unfortunately. It's a relationship of enmeshment rather than love and even the last counsellor who tried to put a rose tint over my life circumstances had to admit that 'she was not kind' to me and I had to watch myself around her. He was shocked when i told him that the Christmas that i was shopped to the psychiatrist relative she then told her brother subsequently that I had had an anger outburst which was a lie. The family is grossly dysfunctional but I don't think she has ever told her brother about the dysfunctionality of other family members.

It's all come to a head and the loneliness coming up to Christmas is really eating at me in a way that it did not before. I look at people celebrating and buying things and I remember the anticipation I used to have around Christmas time but I feel I am just outside looking in and feel that Christmas does not pertain to me anymore as I don't have any place in the world.

Last night to top it all off my computer (where I live) broke down and would not start up. That sort of set my anxiety through the roof so I stayed up till 3am to fix it and just when I was finally going to bed at 3am a mouse ran across my bedroom. There has been scurrying for a few days but I have ignored it so I had to get a trap and spring it and the little thing was killed. I hate doing that but they set off the alarm and chew through wires and sure enough when I was out today the alarm went off and the police were called.

Clearly the lack of sleep has made my symptoms vis a vis my life circumstances worse but unfortunately it was at this time that a psychiatrist relative was rung about getting me into hospital behind my back without telling me. I wrote it before in my thread....I have to be very careful about that happening again. This person is now more or less completely estranged from the family but you never know really. The dynamic is so deeply dysfunctional that it's quite painful.

On 12/6/2022 at 5:47 AM, JanCarol said:

Yes, we do a little bit of fashion parade, but it's "hippy style" - love the stone ring on your finger, those are colourful jungle pants, that was a great band (t-shirt). The teacher shows up in ratty shorts (really ratty - sometimes I wonder how they stay on!) and a polo shirt.

I always put the quotes in the wrong place - can't manage them but I can see the class - sounds like a great vibe.

Unfortunately if I move I will have to leave the tai chi class I am attending as it's becoming imperative now more and more that I will have to move if I am able. I simply can't bear things here - they have become really unbearable. My parents really hate each other and they have hated each other for years only now it has gotten much much worse since the pandemic. I cannot pretend anymore that i even had half a relationship with one of them and that it causing me huge emotional pain currently. I feel like such a fool because I kept trying to bond with him nearly all my life. I even did all his laundry for years even after I was constructively dismissed from the office in which he was a partner. I kept the household going during my mothers long periods of ill health to have a roof over my head and because I could not stand to be on my own and because I kept saying that at some level he cared about me and I even sought out counsellors who would sustain me in that delusion. I feel like an total idiot because I am.

The other siblings - one is completely estranged and expressed to me their contempt about him 10 years ago - with some level still of incomprehension. He said he would jump in front of a train to save one of his own children but this man - my father - he just didn't care. He didn't care about any of us - not just me. The other sibling - she was a late arrival and he had checked out completely when she arrived thereby causing her less damage as he was rarely there. She did not sustain the same level of physical and emotional abuse that me and the first sibling were subjected to so she now relates to him on a distant level and even calls him dad. I gave up calling him that years ago as did the other sibling.

I don't want to updose but clearly I have gone too far too fast in the taper unwittingly. It was the last two drops that really worsened things.

It's good that you have your husband to drive you to appointments JanCarol. That can take some of the burden away vis a vis the driving if one is not feeling up to it and your advice re the zen attitude to other road users really helped me hugely when I was on the road this week. I am still driving slowly but not irritated or frightened as much by other drivers. Wow 15 car accidents - that is quite a number - you must have a strong survival instinct or else the soul of a cat only you're past the number 9.

That's a lovely dream to have had about the old Chinese master who inspired you even if it was by beating you. It sounds like an uplifting dream - a person who was interested in teaching you and had an interest in you.

On 12/6/2022 at 5:47 AM, JanCarol said:

The relaxation thing is key. Tai chi is all about flow - getting the meridians to flow through the joints. This is the source of all health - removing blockages, being loose, flowing and free. In Taoism, they teach that pelvic alignment is the secret to Longevity (I'm still working on this!). Last night, my teacher was talking about how all power comes from flow through the joints, and the rotation of them towards, rather than against, gravity. He is against strength training, against "zipping it up." And would scold me if he caught me planking or doing push ups!

Yes I really feel that in the class or stirrings of it because of the teacher is good but unfortunately my hip was painful after the class and the teacher (I spoke with him) said probably hip replacement is the way to go. I know though that my pelvis is not aligned but I can't seem to fix it.

Yes I think I will have to attend the meetings because they're all that are on offer currently for me and just sit and suck it up - the stories I mean. If I move there are meetings there too I could attend. I think I will move in January if I get through Christmas.

I am afraid my bloods for the thyroid have not yet come back after five weeks !!! and there is not word on when they will come back if at all. The doctor I want to attend will not be back here until mid February and there is no point attending him without the bloods or so I am advised. That's what passes for medicine in this country so I have not started any medication because as I wrote previously my current GP says she does not have the expertise to prescribe it and this guy who won't be available until February apparently is the only guy in the country who does so I am not taking anything.

But perhaps it would not be a good idea to take something ie another medication when tapering. It might make my symptoms worse than they already are. The thyroid is affected by stress and I am massively stressed all the time mostly because I live in such a hostile environment. That's why I think I have to move ...I am worried about money but I don't think I have much option. I will check out the telemedicine if I get less stressed - for now everything seesms too much

Erell - I am glad the chia pudding experience gave you a laugh anyway.

Oaktree1

December 14, 2022

Dear @Oaktree1

Havent been in here a lot. But just read your post.
Thank you for supporting me with your kindness. I want to give my support back to you.

11 minutes ago, Oaktree1 said:

I don't want to updose but clearly I have gone too far too fast in the taper unwittingly

I totally get that. I too have been, well not the best and most impatient with my tapering. What ever you decide, we are are to support you. You know best, and listen to your intuition.

15 minutes ago, Oaktree1 said:

am afraid my bloods for the thyroid have not yet come back after five weeks !!! and there is not word on when they will come back if at all.

You know this might be a good sign. I too had an mri 4 weeks ago, and haven’t heard anything. I look at it as a good sign 😉

You have come such a long way, look at you go with your tapering. What an awesome job. Don’t be hard on yourself, you are doing a great job.
Don’t underestimate your strength, it’s already present and showing.
I am so proud of you, keep up the good work🥰

Hanna

December 15, 2022

Hello dear Oaktree -

Before I read your post in detail, it came to me that - many of us here at SA - maybe most of us - have made mistakes in tapering. It happens (especially when you have a stressor, or a wave, and you're just not thinking as clearly as usual). There are maths experts here who can talk you through your liquid tapers, if you want help.

But overall - please - don't let a bump in your tapering cause anxiety and increase symptoms. It happens, it's happened to many of us (including myself), and it's survivable. It may be a bump of unpleasantness in an otherwise rocky road - and our shock absorbers are frayed - but it won't last. This, too, will pass.

An updose is not a failure; be kind to yourself. Updose is an adjustment, that's all. Your body told you, and listening to your body is a good thing. I'm sorry it is so hard for you right now.

15 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

(think we call them cakes here as opposed to crackers).

Here a rice cake is about the size of your palm, maybe 1 cm thick, and is just pressed puffed rice. The crackers I mention are more like "savoury biscuits." (at least that's how the English & Australians would say it)

15 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Afraid I fell off the gluten free band wagon a few days ago.

My understanding is that it takes 3-6 weeks of NO gluten to start seeing improvements.

I fall off time to time, too. Christmas parties, right? People bring cookies and cakes to classes, and it's unkind to say "no, thank you" to a sweet little old lady who is a joy in every other way.

15 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I had a massive bust up with a family member today

Mmmm. Your family. Are you safe? Please do what you can to take care of yourself!

15 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

It's all come to a head and the loneliness coming up to Christmas is really eating at me in a way that it did not before. I look at people celebrating and buying things and I remember the anticipation I used to have around Christmas time but I feel I am just outside looking in and feel that Christmas does not pertain to me anymore as I don't have any place in the world.

I'm wondering how many decades I've had this conversation. At last, hubby & I are uninvited to the family thing, and we do as we please at Christmas. It's starting to feel nice again. No obligations, no dramas, just simple. My first rejection of Christmas was during my teen existential crisis: Nothing Matters and What if it Did? (Supertramp reference). I drank myself sick when I was 18 (underage in my state) and ruined the family Christmas dinner. In marriage #1 made peace with it, then moved downunder where it happens in the hottest part of summer. And now - is it real? How much of it is about shopping & spending, and how much of it is togetherness, and how much of it is spent on an app?

So I hear you, and - your situation - like I asked above, please stay safe.

15 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Clearly the lack of sleep has made my symptoms vis a vis my life circumstances worse but unfortunately it was at this time that a psychiatrist relative was rung about getting me into hospital behind my back without telling me.

I've been reading on Mad In America about laws being passed in NYC to get the unhomed off the street and into forced treatment.

I'm wondering if there is some sort of Mind Freedom type agency you can contact which might help your situation. You might look at the resources on Mad In America, which is now international. They may have a list of "help." I would mostly trust their references.

But right now your job is to stabilise and get some sleep. Find something that feels better, even if they are terribly small things.

Anyhow, late here in Oz,

I hope you see the sun today (even in the cold!).

December 27, 2022

Hi Hanna72 and JanCarol,

I really appreciated your posts the other week and have read and re- read them.

In the last two week I have never had S.I. as intense and have had a few nights to really wait out the urge. I ordered a book by an English comedian/actor Joe Tracini - '10 things I hate about myself and how not to kill yourself yet'. His advice - in typical prosaic English way - 'wait a bit'. (I'm an Anglophile in case anyone English reading this thinks it's a criticism - it's wry understatement while in my country of origin it's usually maudlin overstatement). He describes feeling like absolute c**** most of the time like and feeling that he is a bad person. I feel like that most of the the time so I can relate to him although I am not a successful actor and comedian like him but I can relate to him growing up in a fantasy world because he had no real friends and was severely bullied.

On 12/15/2022 at 12:59 PM, JanCarol said:

I'm wondering how many decades I've had this conversation. At last, hubby & I are uninvited to the family thing, and we do as we please at Christmas. It's starting to feel nice again. No obligations, no dramas, just simple. My first rejection of Christmas was during my teen existential crisis: Nothing Matters and What if it Did? (Supertramp reference). I drank myself sick when I was 18 (underage in my state) and ruined the family Christmas dinner. In marriage #1 made peace with it, then moved downunder where it happens in the hottest part of summer. And now - is it real? How much of it is about shopping & spending, and how much of it is togetherness, and how much of it is spent on an app?

I got a laugh out of this - it was better than anything I read in the Saturday supplements in the newspapers about an alternative approach to Christmas and made me feel a bit better.

On 12/15/2022 at 12:59 PM, JanCarol said:

So I hear you, and - your situation - like I asked above, please stay safe.

Well I spent much of last week alone in a flat - barely saw anyone - I spent Christmas day entirely alone. It was pretty awful - I went out for a walk on a nearby pier. It occurs to me - if I don't learn how to relate to people - I'm not going to survive. I mean I know that we don't ultimately survive but I mean that I will die a lot sooner. I decided to spent it alone because I thought it would be safer...now that it's over I don't know how I feel about my decision to do so.

On 12/14/2022 at 9:16 PM, Hanna72 said:

You have come such a long way, look at you go with your tapering. What an awesome job. Don’t be hard on yourself, you are doing a great job.
Don’t underestimate your strength, it’s already present and showing.
I am so proud of you, keep up the good work🥰

Hanna72,

That is a very kind thing of you to write....thank you 🥰

I am hoping that the result of your own scan (if they came through since) will or have been positive. In my own case, the laboratory finally refused to do the last blood test the T3 as they said it wasn't clinically warranted apparently - haha. That's the health service here. So the GP referred to me yet another hospital and i had all the bloods done again last week - better luck next time?

On 12/15/2022 at 12:59 PM, JanCarol said:

I'm wondering if there is some sort of Mind Freedom type agency you can contact which might help your situation. You might look at the resources on Mad In America, which is now international. They may have a list of "help." I would mostly trust their references.

Yes, there is and I know the person in charge and am in contact with her - a really lovely person but they don't have any legal clout unfortunately. The thing is as you put it to 'stay safe'; that means keeping a lid on my emotions and not reacting. I am doing that all the time now. For example I told no one about the S.I. or the intense terrifying panic and loneliness - the fact that driving the few hundred kilometres back on the motorway I am getting surges of panic still that make me feel like I might lose control of the car because all my muscle stiffen up - I try to do the 7-11 breathing or hold my breath but I can't drive faster than 80km because of fear - I used to drive very fast and had no trouble passing out cars - I really loved driving and found it relaxing - this has NEVER happened to me - I don't recognise myself.

I have not updosed - I am staying at the dose I was on when I last posted. I don't have it in me at the moment to do the math (as you ex-pats) say to know where I am exactly am in the taper given that the beaker was 3ml over the 30ml originally. I am staying at that dose and will stay there a while - hope things will even out. I am there two and a half weeks now. The Christmas holiday period is the worst time of the year for me now so there is that in addition. I will see how I feel mid January. If I do not feel any improvement at that stage ...well.

I have not been posting as my symptoms were so bad - I find it intermittently hard to taste food, kept forgetting myself where I am or what I am doing or rather I am doing what i have to be doing but I am not present at all. My mind is running a fairground ride all of its own and it goes round and round and it stops for a moment and then all the nasty thoughts and fears start all over again and it's the same ride and I don't know how to get off it or to stop it. I could not calm myself, felt intense fear - the memories (of where I was ) were so painful it was excruciating. It was full of the past - that place and most of the memories are very painful. There is a garage there and in the garage is the chair that my nanny used to sit in and the white cupboard where she kept her bread making materials and her tins of sweets for visitors - they are lined up against the garage - the chair has boxes of stuff on it and is covered in dust. I still cannot quite grasp that I will never see her again (she's been dead 10 years now) and the pain of it is excruciating. When I was growing up and long before I entered the psychiatric system she was the only person in the world who could make me feel loved and safe - she was my port in a storm many times - at least I was able to cry. That place is full of memories of her presence ...now her absence. I really loved this person. I allow myself if I am alone and if I can manage it to have a cry. Makes me feel a bit better.

The fear makes me feel sick sometimes and sleep... well - I drop off eventually for a few hours and have nightmares - word to the wise re insomnia- don't use your phone or your watch - don't look at the time - you'll drive yourself up the wall that way. You'll be thinking 'oh I only got two hours sleep'...I find it much better not to know...what you don't know can't hurt you etc....

I had a cortisone injection in my hip last week with sedation (was knocked out); God it was lovely to be knocked out - the surgeon said that if it worked it would mean it was the joint that was causing the issues so I could have a replacement but I only got three days relief out of it and then the pain came back so presumably that means it's not the joint even though there is degenerative change? Will have to wait and ask him I suppose.

I have to post something positive and it is this (touching wood) I am not over-reacting to anything or anyone. I am being polite to everyone; I am respecting other people's boundaries, I am taking care not to be needy and asking people about themselves and listening. I keep a lid on my anger and irritation; I notice the feelings in myself and watch them. Some of the images in head are monstrous but I go (that is a horrible image) and do not react. Behind the images (brought about envy of people who have what I do not) is grief. Grief is allowable as there is no anger attached to it. Grief and anger together are dangerous emotions. I have to be able to regulate my emotions myself - otherwise also I am done for.

I hope that you both got over the period ok - maybe even enjoyed it - haha.

Oaktree1

December 27, 2022

Dear @Oaktree1

I am so sorry to hear about your struggles and suffering. Breaks my heart to read this post. But I am glad you wrote it as writing our emotions, I believe is in a way cleansing…it’s good to get them out, even though it’s on a paper or here.

59 minutes ago, Oaktree1 said:

Well I spent much of last week alone in a flat - barely saw anyone - I spent Christmas day entirely alone. It was pretty awful - I went out for a walk on a nearby pier. It occurs to me - if I don't learn how to relate to people - I'm not going to survive. I mean I know that we don't ultimately survive but I mean that I will die a lot sooner. I decided to spent it alone because I thought it would be safer...

You should not doubt your decision. If you thought you would feel safer at that particular time, don’t beat yourself up about it. In my mind Christmas is what ever you make of it, and you should always follow your heart. People spend the holidays in many different ways, and there is no right or wrong way.
I am so sorry that it was awful for you oaktree.
Is there anyone you can reach out too?

You probably know of all the coping tools that is good for us to use, so many ideas in here.

Is there anyway you can add some in, even just a little each day?
My go-to’s are Eckhart Tolle YouTube videos. Most of the time I can become grounded and my mind slows down.

Here is a quote I love;

‘’Loneliness is not the absence of others, but the absence of yourself’’

My thoughts are with you. Please try to stay positive and know that you are never alone 🙏💕

December 27, 2022

❤️

@Oaktree1
Just want to send you the assurance that you are not alone and that we support you.
I don't know if this will sound interesting or relevant to you: one of the tools that helps me is to focus on the child me, on that child who deserves to heal and laugh, and on the desire I feel to become the loving friend I wish I had at that time.
I want to hold on for her. I think she's worth it.
If it's okay with you, please give the Oaktree child a hug for me ❤️

Edited December 27, 2022 by Erell

January 22, 2023

Hi Oaktree,

Just wanted to let you know that I’m thinking of you and sending hugs🤗

February 11, 2023

@Oaktree1 sending you a hug and to let you know you are not alone....You can certainly relate to people, you do a great job here on SA..🌞

February 15, 2023

Hi Oaktree, still thinking of you and hope you’re okay💛

February 16, 2023

Hi Carmie and thanks to you and everyone else that has posted on my thread in the past while - Greatful, JanCarol, Erell and Hanna72,

I have appreciated your kind messages. I don't have much positive to write at present so it is more restful to be a lurker. I messed up my taper (not my fault it was the beaker) - I am holding since last December. Thanks again to you and to everyone who posted for your messages of support.

Oaktree

March 3, 2023

@Erell

Thanks for your suggestion of trying to be kind to the child I once was. At the moment I can't really do this yet - I tried but all it brings up is the past and not being able to protect myself but I am beginning to see that I don't give myself an easy time in my mind and that is beginning to get through to me...slowly so thank you.

@Hanna72

Just want to say thank you for suggesting Eckhard Tolle a few months back to me as a way to calm down. I never watched his videos before as I could not get through 'The Power of Now' - I could not connect with it at all. However I have discovered that I can watch the videos on Youtube and yes they open up an alternative view of reality - a way of non reaction. They have proved really helpful in the past while.

I have a question that I do need help from from a mod who is good at maths. I have already posted previously and it is in my signature that the measurements went out on my taper because the volumetric beaker was 3ml larger that it should have been so I have been diluting two 15mg Mirt tablets in a solution of 33ml rather than 30ml. In order to check this I used a few different syringes and different volumetric beakers and the measure in the glass beaker I was using is definitely out by 3ml

I did the calculations and it appears that 33ml is a 10% increase on 30ml so when I re calibrated my taper I took off an additional 10% from my current reduction. I just need a mod to tell me whether this is correct or not because it will have a bearing on how I continue with the taper. If for example I am at 3.5mg (having taken an additional 10% off my current taper of 4.2mg) I will need I presume to go slower because of hyperbolic tapering. I was planning to start tapering again using a variation of the brass monkey method I had been using from the end of next week when I will be three months holding on the current dose that I am on and I want to get on with it.

I know that a lot of new members have joined and mods are busy but just need specific advice with this as I don't have confidence with maths or measurements.

Thanks

Oaktree

March 5, 2023

On 3/3/2023 at 8:18 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I have been diluting two 15mg Mirt tablets in a solution of 33ml rather than 30ml. In order to check this I used a few different syringes and different volumetric beakers and the measure in the glass beaker I was using is definitely out by 3ml

I did the calculations and it appears that 33ml is a 10% increase on 30ml so when I re calibrated my taper I took off an additional 10% from my current reduction. I just need a mod to tell me whether this is correct or not because it will have a bearing on how I continue with the taper. If for example I am at 3.5mg (having taken an additional 10% off my current taper of 4.2mg) I will need I presume to go slower because of hyperbolic tapering.

Hi @Oaktree1,

So you have been diluting 30mg into 33ml of liquid. That means that every 1ml of liquid has 0.9090 (or approximately 0.91 mg) of mirtazapine.

How many ml of that have you been taking?

If you have been taking 4.2ml thinking it is 0.42mg then you would have been taking 3.818 mg of mirtazapine instead of 4.2mg. That is 9.1% less than what you were supposed to be taking. [I find that by subtracting 3.818 from 4.2 and dividing by 4.2 -> (4.2-3.818)/4.2] This means that you have inadvertently reduced by 9.1%. However, if you have always been using these beakers etc. this reduction happened at the time when you first started using them and not now. Your taper rate after has been regular - i.e. there has not been an extraordinary reduction since the time you first started using these measurements.

If you wanted to reduce using new (corrected) measuring tools - i.e. syringes or other pipettes etc. you would be measuring 3.82ml for your current dose if measured correctly from a 30mg into 30ml solution rather than 30mg into 33ml solution. The old measuring tools gave you a more diluted version and hence a higher volume of liquid was equivalent to the same dose in mg. If you wanted to lower from 3.82 ml using the new measuring tools, then you would lower to 3.438 or 3.44ml for a 10% taper.

IF YOU ARE KEEPING THE OLD BEAKER:

You can continue doing 10% of your previous measurements - i.e. current dose of 4.2ml (using old tools) - would become 3.78ml using same tools. That would be equivalent to =3.78*0.909=3.436mg of mirtazapine or 3.44mg (the tiny difference from above calculations is because I rounded from 3.818 to 3.82 above but did not round up 0.909 to 0.91). They are equivalent for our purposes here.

So, if you continue using the same beaker that is actually 33ml when it reads 30ml continue cutting 10% from the amount you have been taking - 4.2 ml. If you change to 'correct measures' where 30mg is dissolved into 30ml then your current dose should be 3.82ml= 3.82mg and the next drop should be to 3.44ml = 3.44mg at 10% rate.

Hope this is helpful.

OMW

PS. These are the questions you should never worry about bothering the mods with. That is what we are here for.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Onmyway

Oaktree1: tapering from Remeron while dealing with Cymbalta withdrawal

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