Yasmine: Tapering lormétazépam

[Nomansland]

Hello @Yasmine,

 

please read the posts again. Both scales are fine and will work with your taper. The Gem-20 model is one of the best in this price range

(doesnt matter from which manufacturer).

 

Here are two Gem-20 models on amazon.fr which have everything you need (including 2x 10 g weights to calibrate your scale):

 

https://www.amazon.fr/Hoosiwee-Balance-Précision-Fonction-Calibration/dp/B078BC6876/ref=nav_signin?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=Poids+de+10+grammes&qid=1624886192&sr=8-98&returnFromLogin=1&

 

https://www.amazon.fr/Smart-Weigh-GEM20-intelligente-20x0-001g/dp/B00ESHDGOI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=gem20+scale&qid=1624652560&sr=8-2

 

You dont need to worry about something if you buy one of these.

 

Greetings

 

[Yasmine]

1 hour ago, Nomansland said:

Bonjour @Yasmine,

 

s'il vous plaît relire les messages. Les deux échelles sont bonnes et fonctionneront avec votre cône. Le modèle Gem-20 est l'un des meilleurs dans cette gamme de prix

(peu importe de quel fabricant).

 

Voici deux modèles Gem-20 sur amazon.fr qui ont tout ce qu'il vous faut (dont 2 poids de 10 g pour calibrer votre balance) :

 

https://www.amazon.fr/Hoosiwee-Balance-Précision-Fonction-Calibration/dp/B078BC6876/ref=nav_signin?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=Poids+de+10+grammes&qid=1624886192&sr=8-98&return

 

https://www.amazon.fr/Smart-Weigh-GEM20-intelligente-20x0-001g/dp/B00ESHDGOI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=gem20+scale&qid=1624652560&sr=8-2

 

Vous n'avez pas à vous soucier de quelque chose si vous en achetez un.

 

Les salutations

 

Hello,

Sorry to bother you again.

I was going to order the first one but when I read the details, I noticed that it was confusing because they have written first 0.001g the in the second sentence it is written 0.01g to 20g. Therefore I wanted to double-check with you before buying. 

Please see bellow the details : 

• Cette balance a une précision d'un millième de gramme (0.001g) donc elle est extrêmement précise. Construite avec un système de capteur de haute précision, la balance de poche vous fournit des résultats instantanés et précis de 0.01g à 20g." 

[Nomansland]

Hello @Yasmine,

 

your right, that seems like a mistake. Iam pretty sure they just forgot to add a zero in the describition (when you scroll down you will find the right 0.001 g steps again), because all models can way 20 g in 0.001 g steps (i have two different Gem-20 models and both are exactly the same and weigh very good). This can happen from chinese sellers, so i think its just a writing mistake and shouldnt bother you.

 

The reviewers also state that it can weigh in 0.001 g ( = 1mg) steps and you can see in the pictures that it has 4 digits (0.001).

 

Greetings

[Yasmine]

1 hour ago, Nomansland said:

Bonjour @Yasmine,

 

votre droit, cela semble être une erreur. Je suis presque sûr qu'ils ont juste oublié d'ajouter un zéro dans la description (lorsque vous faites défiler vers le bas, vous trouverez à nouveau les bons pas de 0,001 g), car tous les modèles peuvent atteindre 20 g par pas de 0,001 g (j'ai deux modèles Gem-20 différents et les deux sont exactement les mêmes et pèsent très bien). Cela peut arriver des vendeurs chinois, donc je pense que c'est juste une erreur d'écriture et ne devrait pas vous déranger.

 

Les critiques déclarent également qu'il peut peser par paliers de 0,001 g ( = 1 mg) et vous pouvez voir sur les images qu'il a 4 chiffres (0,001).

 

Les salutations

Thank you very much 

Greetings 

[brassmonkey]

The 0.01g -20g listing is the range of accuracy for the scale. If you want to measure weights smaller than 0.01g it will not be as accurate, but there are easy ways around that. That scale will work well.

[Yasmine]

1 hour ago, brassmonkey said:

The 0.01g -20g listing is the range of accuracy for the scale. If you want to measure weights smaller than 0.01g it will not be as accurate, but there are easy ways around that. That scale will work well.

Thank you.

I have ordered the one 0.001 -20g

[Yasmine]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:06 PM, Yasmine said:

Hi Brassmonkey,

Sorry my cognitive sense are not working very well lately because of the lack of sleep since a year now.  Last night I  could not fell asleep until 4 am and woke up with an extra sound on the left side of my head. Therefore I am so tired.

But I think I understood.

Thank you.

Greetings 

Yasmine 

Hello,

As it the first time I am dealing with this, could you please help me because I don't want to make mistakes. I have watched on youtube a dry cut taper and followed the instructions.

I received the scale and tried to measure a tablet with a weight and then without a weight, but it is never the same amount. The first time, it gives 10.116 with the weight and .114 without, then 10.113 and .115. so if I understood properly the tablet does not contain 1mg of product but between .113 and .115? but those amount ara far différent from 1mg? 

When I weigh 10 tablets the weight is 1.100 that I I have to divided by 10 = 0,11 X 0,90 = 0,099.

If I crush a tablet with spoons, don't you thing that a few powder will stay on the spoons? 

All these stuff are very difficult for me. 

 

thank you for your help.

 

Greetings,

Yasmin 

[Yasmine]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:09 PM, Yasmine said:

Thank you.

I have ordered the one 0.001 -20g

Hello,

As it the first time I am dealing with this, could you please help me because I don't want to make mistakes. I have watched on youtube a dry cut taper and followed the instructions.

I received the scale and tried to measure a tablet with a weight and then without a weight, but it is never the same amount. The first time, it gives 10.116 with the weight and .114 without, then 10.113 and .115. so if I understood properly the tablet does not contain 1mg of product but between .113 and .115? but those amount ara far différent from 1mg? 

When I weigh 10 tablets the weight is 1.100 that I I have to divided by 10 = 0,11 X 0,90 = 0,099.

Therefore, do I Have to take 0,901 every evening in 10 days ?

If I crush a tablet with spoons, don't you thing that a few powder will stay on the spoons? 

All these stuff are very difficult for me. 

 

Thank you for advising.

 

Greetings,

Yasmin 

[brassmonkey]

Hi Yasmine-- you are dong fine, there is a lot of information to learn so ask all the questions you need to.

 

Weighing with the little weight will be the most accurate way. This puts the scales in the middle of their range where they work the best.

 

One milligram is an extremely small amount, making it hard to measure. The variation in weight you see is quite typical and not enough to make a difference in your dose strength.

 

Your tablets are made up of two things. Active Ingredient and Fuller. Your 1mg tablets actually weigh 10.115mg. This means that 1mg of that weight is Active Ingredient and 9.115mg is Filler. The filler is used to make the tablets big enough to handle and sometimes to slow down how your body absorbs the medication.

 

People sometimes worry that the Active Ingredient is not mixed well with the filler. This is not the case. The manufacturers work quite hard to get things well mixed. So when you crush the tablet it will remain well mixed.

 

Workmen just arrives so I have to go, back soon.

[Yasmine]

21 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Salut Yasmine-- tu vas bien, il y a beaucoup d'informations à apprendre alors posez toutes les questions dont vous avez besoin.

 

Peser avec le petit poids sera le moyen le plus précis. Cela place les balances au milieu de leur gamme, là où elles fonctionnent le mieux.

 

Un milligramme est une quantité extrêmement faible, ce qui la rend difficile à mesurer. La variation de poids que vous voyez est assez typique et ne suffit pas à faire une différence dans la force de votre dose.

 

Vos comprimés sont constitués de deux choses. Ingrédient actif et plus complet. Vos comprimés de 1 mg pèsent en réalité 10,115 mg. Cela signifie que 1 mg de ce poids est l'ingrédient actif et 9,115 mg est la charge. La charge est utilisée pour rendre les comprimés suffisamment gros pour être manipulés et parfois pour ralentir la façon dont votre corps absorbe le médicament.

 

Les gens craignent parfois que l'ingrédient actif ne soit pas bien mélangé avec la charge. Ce n'est pas le cas. Les fabricants travaillent assez dur pour bien mélanger les choses. Ainsi, lorsque vous écraserez le comprimé, il restera bien mélangé.

 

Les ouvriers arrivent juste donc je dois y aller, bientôt de retour.

Hello @brassmonkey

@Erell

If none of the tablets weighs the same, how can I be sure that I will take out the same amount every evening? 

10 is the weight of the metal weight that comes with the scale. 

The table alone weight 0.114.

 

PS : Why I can't join photos from my phone? I don't understand every photo exceed 66,09 

[brassmonkey]

I'm very sorry, I got distracted by the workmen.

Yes, of course the 10 is the weight of the metal piece. Any tablet weighting 10 grams would be too big to swallow.

 

You previous post indicates that the same tablet will display weights between 0.113 and 0.116. Because 1mg is such a tiny weight there are a lot of things that can cause this difference. A little vibration from the table, air currents, just your breathing can throw things off a tiny bit. However, in the end when all the math is done, this small difference hardly changes your dose at all. When you finally get to the last part of your taper we will have to pay attention to it, but that will be a while.

 

We get around the differences between pills by working with the average weight and only taking the amount we need for the dose from a "supply pile" of powder. Any differences are removed after the first dose by doing this.

 

"When I weigh 10 tablets the weight is 1.100 that I I have to divided by 10 = 0,11 "

 

This correctly calculates the average weight of one tablet. We will say 0,110 so the number reflects milligrams.

 

If you take a single 1mg tablet once a day you would be taking an average of 0.110mgpw (milligram pill weight) of powder once a day.

 

"0,11 X 0,90 = 0,099."

 

This gives the new weight of a dose that is 10% smaller. To take that dose you would weigh this amount (0.099) on the scales. There will be a little left over, which you can save for later. You will take this amount once a day for at least four weeks. Then we will calculate the new dose as 0.099 X 0.9 = 0.081.

 

You can carefully remove as much powder that sticks to the spoon. A little left will not cause problems. All the powder becomes a "supply pile" from which you only take the amount you need. Like taking a spoon of sugar out of a bag. 

 

Place a small square of paper on the scales to hold the powder while you weigh it. A very small amount of powder will stick to the paper the first time you use it, but after that all the powder will slide off.

 

Again, sorry for the confusion. I hope this helps clear things up.

[Yasmine]

9 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

I'm very sorry, I got distracted by the workmen.

Yes, of course the 10 is the weight of the metal piece. Any tablet weighting 10 grams would be too big to swallow.

 

You previous post indicates that the same tablet will display weights between 0.113 and 0.116. Because 1mg is such a tiny weight there are a lot of things that can cause this difference. A little vibration from the table, air currents, just your breathing can throw things off a tiny bit. However, in the end when all the math is done, this small difference hardly changes your dose at all. When you finally get to the last part of your taper we will have to pay attention to it, but that will be a while.

 

We get around the differences between pills by working with the average weight and only taking the amount we need for the dose from a "supply pile" of powder. Any differences are removed after the first dose by doing this.

 

"When I weigh 10 tablets the weight is 1.100 that I I have to divided by 10 = 0,11 "

 

This correctly calculates the average weight of one tablet. We will say 0,110 so the number reflects milligrams.

 

If you take a single 1mg tablet once a day you would be taking an average of 0.110mgpw (milligram pill weight) of powder once a day.

 

"0,11 X 0,90 = 0,099."

 

This gives the new weight of a dose that is 10% smaller. To take that dose you would weigh this amount (0.099) on the scales. There will be a little left over, which you can save for later. You will take this amount once a day for at least four weeks. Then we will calculate the new dose as 0.099 X 0.9 = 0.081.

 

You can carefully remove as much powder that sticks to the spoon. A little left will not cause problems. All the powder becomes a "supply pile" from which you only take the amount you need. Like taking a spoon of sugar out of a bag. 

 

Place a small square of paper on the scales to hold the powder while you weigh it. A very small amount of powder will stick to the paper the first time you use it, but after that all the powder will slide off.

 

Again, sorry for the confusion. I hope this helps clear things up.

But If I Well understood, every evening I have to crush 1mg tablet and take 0.099 as a powder with water? 

Why not for 10 days because we calculate the total of 10 tables ( I used to take 1mg every evening? 

[Yasmine]

5 minutes ago, Yasmine said:

Mais si j'ai bien compris, chaque soir je dois écraser 1mg comprimé et prendre 0,099 sous forme de poudre avec de l'eau ? 

Pourquoi pas pendant 10 jours car on calcule le total de 10 tables (j'avais l'habitude de prendre 1mg tous les soirs ? 

I have a question. How will I get the amount of 0,099 ? Shall I weigh it with the metallic weight again or the tray they provide with the scale? 

It's a shame I can't send pictures 

[brassmonkey]

Measuring 10 tablets is only to establish a starting point so we can accurately and consistently measure the weight of one dose each day. You could crush several tablets at aa time to make the "supply pile", but you will still have to weigh each dose daily. If you order the gel caps I mentioned several posts ago, you could fill several of those at a time to make things easier.

 

You will need to take the same daily dose for four weeks, before making the next reduction.

[Yasmine]

4 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Measuring 10 tablets is only to establish a starting point so we can accurately and consistently measure the weight of one dose each day. You could crush several tablets at aa time to make the "supply pile", but you will still have to weigh each dose daily. If you order the gel caps I mentioned several posts ago, you could fill several of those at a time to make things easier.

 

You will need to take the same daily dose for four weeks, before making the next reduction.

Yes, but the next 10 tablets that  i will have to weigh again will have a different average amount because each tablet doesn't have the same weight. Sorry but it is confusing because 4 weeks is 28 days. It means that the first amount I have to take is 0,099 but after 10 following days the amount will change as each tablet has different weight, isn't it ? So why should I take this amount 0,099 ,4weeks (28 days) ? 

Furthermore , I have read that 10% drop is not efficient after 3 months, do you agree?

 

[Yasmine]

12 hours ago, Yasmine said:

Oui, mais les 10 prochains comprimés que je devrai peser à nouveau auront une quantité moyenne différente car chaque comprimé n'a pas le même poids. Désolé mais c'est déroutant car 4 semaines c'est 28 jours. Cela signifie que la première quantité que je dois prendre est de 0,099 mais après 10 jours suivants, la quantité changera car chaque comprimé a un poids différent, n'est-ce pas ? Alors pourquoi devrais-je prendre ce montant 0,099 ,4 semaines (28 jours) ? 

De plus, j'ai lu qu'une baisse de 10% n'est pas efficace après 3 mois, êtes-vous d'accord ?

 

Hello,

 

Can someone help me in that matter please 🙏?

How can I a mesure 0.090 with the tray or metal weight? 

[Yasmine]

21 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Mesurer 10 comprimés ne sert qu'à établir un point de départ afin que nous puissions mesurer avec précision et cohérence le poids d'une dose chaque jour. Vous pouvez écraser plusieurs comprimés à la fois pour constituer la "pile d'approvisionnement", mais vous devrez quand même peser chaque dose quotidiennement. Si vous commandez les gélules dont j'ai parlé il y a plusieurs articles, vous pouvez en remplir plusieurs à la fois pour faciliter les choses.

 

Vous devrez prendre la même dose quotidienne pendant quatre semaines, avant de procéder à la prochaine réduction.

Hello,

I started today the tapering. I did take the quantity of 0.099 and trhew away the rest on the paper because it is really tiny.

So, I have to take evey evening this dose for 4 weeks. 

Is their a particularly hour to take it? 

 

Thank you for your help 🙏

[brassmonkey]

@Shep-- would you please drop in and help with Yasmine's tapering schedule, Benzo's are not my field.

[Shep]

 

On 6/25/2021 at 7:09 AM, Yasmine said:

And by recommendation of the Doctor I had to increase it again until I reduced it again last month from 2mg to 1mg and since 25th Of May2021, I am taking this amont before bed around 9.30 -10 pm. And As I don't trust them anymore, I prefer to get advices from people who had similar stories than mine.

 

 

On 6/25/2021 at 10:38 AM, Gridley said:

You've made many changes recently.  I would consider staying where you are for a month until your system stabilizes.

 

 

17 hours ago, Yasmine said:

I started today the tapering.

 

@YasmineI've read through your thread and due to your 50% reduction in May, I'm going to agree with Gridley that you should not taper for at least a month. Please go back to the dose you've been taking for the past month. By tapering too soon, you risk kindling (traumatizing) your nervous system. 

 

Please give your nervous system time to stabilize. 

 

Were you getting more sleep when you were taking 2mg lormétazépam? Have you had any improvements in your symptoms over the past month since you reduced the dose from 2 mg to 1 mg? 

 

The reason I'm asking is because you're right outside the safe window to updose. We usually don't recommend updosing a benzo after one month of the last reduction. However, it's still an option that might help because you're still close to that window. Please let us know more about how you're feeling now compared to how you felt right before that 50% dose reduction from 2 mg down to 1 mg. 

 

[Yasmine]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

 

 

 

 

@YasmineI've read through your thread and due to your 50% reduction in May, I'm going to agree with Gridley that you should not taper for at least a month. Please go back to the dose you've been taking for the past month. By tapering too soon, you risk kindling (traumatizing) your nervous system. 

 

Please give your nervous system time to stabilize. 

 

Were you getting more sleep when you were taking 2mg lormétazépam? Have you had any improvements in your symptoms over the past month since you reduced the dose from 2 mg to 1 mg? 

 

The reason I'm asking is because you're right outside the safe window to updose. We usually don't recommend updosing a benzo after one month of the last reduction. However, it's still an option that might help because you're still close to that window. Please let us know more about how you're feeling now compared to how you felt right before that 50% dose reduction from 2 mg down to 1 mg. 

 

Hello,

 

Thank you for your reply.

But I am already on 1mg more than a month, since the 25th of May.

Except the fact that I have insomnies some nights and numbness tingling have lessened, I am fine.

And since I have been advised to taper direct from my sleeping tablet, I have already started yesterday at 0.099.

The 2mg tablet was not working anymore.

 

[Yasmine]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:15 PM, Gridley said:

How are you feeling taking the 1mg of this pill?  Are you feeling ok?   If you are feeling ok, it would be fine to taper off using your current drug.

 

 

Yasmine, I am tagging (notifying) Brassmonkey, one of our moderators, about your question.  He is very good with water dilution calculations.  

@ShepWe previously had this discussion with @Gridley, Whom I asked if I can taper with this dose 1mg which I was on more that a month. Therefore, I have started to taper since yesterday.

I took already 0.099. Now I am confused.  I could sleep yesterday. What Shall I do now  ? 

[Erell]

Hello @Yasmine

 

We advise people to try to stabilise before attempting a taper, meaning holding for some time to let your symptoms fade and practicing selfcare and non drug coping skills.

Starting a taper while already feeling destabilised can mean taking the risk to destabilise further.

 

You've made a lot of changes this year (Prozac, lormetazepam doses, supplements), all these events might have upset your nervous system, that's why Shep suggest to hold your dose to give some rest to your nervous system and give your body a chance to do his adjustements work.

 

You made a 50% drop last May, this is quite a huge drop. It could be interesting to give some time to your CNS to stabilise, to create a bedtime routine and practice non drug coping skills. 

 

I can understand your confusion as we gave you a lot of infos about HOW to taper and to mesure your dose. 

But these infos might have been a bit premature : we never go too slow with psychdrugs, and our advice here would be to give some rest to your body.

 

Can you answer these questions ?

 

3 hours ago, Shep said:

Were you getting more sleep when you were taking 2mg lormétazépam? Have you had any improvements in your symptoms over the past month since you reduced the dose from 2 mg to 1 mg? 

 

Take care ☀️

 

[Yasmine]

3 minutes ago, Erell said:

Hello @Yasmine

 

We advise people to try to stabilise before attempting a taper, meaning holding for some time to let your symptoms fade and practicing selfcare and non drug coping skills.

Starting a taper while already feeling destabilised can mean taking the risk to destabilise further.

 

You've made a lot of changes this year (Prozac, lormetazepam doses, supplements), all these events might have upset your nervous system, that's why Shep suggest to hold your dose to give some rest to your nervous system and give your body a chance to do his adjustements work.

 

You made a 50% drop last May, this is quite a huge drop. It could be interesting to give some time to your CNS to stabilise, to create a bedtime routine and practice non drug coping skills. 

 

I can understand your confusion as we gave you a lot of infos about HOW to taper and to mesure your dose. 

But these infos might have been a bit premature : we never go too slow with psychdrugs, and our advice here would be to give some rest to your body.

 

Can you answer these questions ?

 

 

Take care ☀️

 

Hello @Erell,

 

 I know all you meant but I did stabilise for more than a month, from 25th of May until 01st July, isn't it enough?

At the end, I remember than even the 2mg wasn't enough to get sleep. And I did not want to increase the dose. Therefore I was taking melatonin and drop to 1mg, then I found out after 3 weeks the Withdrawal groups and realized than I was going to fast. 

My symptoms are not worse that with the 2mg, I even notice that some days the tingling and numbness were lessen. 

I did not take Prozac to long, that was last year in August only 1 and half month. I told the Dr that I want to stop it , and did not told me to taper it but only to tae it every 2 days then 4 days then stop. This is what I have done. 

I did not do to many changes as the longest drug I take is the sleeping pills Lormézétapam , that I by myself decided to drop to 1mg last year in October because I have not been warned about the danger and taper 

[Yasmine]

4 hours ago, Erell said:

Bonjour @Yasmine

 

Nous conseillons aux gens d'essayer de se stabiliser avant de tenter une réduction, c'est-à-dire de tenir pendant un certain temps pour laisser vos symptômes s'estomper et de pratiquer des compétences d'autosoins et d'adaptation sans drogue.

Commencer un taper en se sentant déjà déstabilisé peut signifier prendre le risque de se déstabiliser davantage.

 

Vous avez fait beaucoup de changements cette année (prozac, doses de lormétazépam, suppléments), tous ces événements ont pu perturber votre système nerveux, c'est pourquoi Shep suggère de maintenir votre dose pour donner un peu de repos à votre système nerveux et donner à votre corps un chance de faire son travail d'ajustement.

 

Vous avez fait une baisse de 50% en mai dernier, c'est une baisse assez énorme. Il pourrait être intéressant de laisser le temps à votre SNC de se stabiliser, de créer une routine au coucher et de pratiquer des compétences d'adaptation non médicamenteuses. 

 

Je peux comprendre votre confusion car nous vous avons donné beaucoup d'infos sur COMMENT diminuer et mesurer votre dose. 

Mais ces infos étaient peut-être un peu prématurées : on n'y va jamais trop lentement avec les drogues psychédéliques, et notre conseil ici serait de donner un peu de repos à son corps.

 

Peux-tu répondre a ces questions ?

 

 

Prenez soin de vous ☀️

 

@Erellwould please advise what means this sentence, I did not really understand what the person means: 

" You will need to get 0.5mg tablets when you get lower as they will cut into bigger pieces with less drug" 

 

Thank you 

[Yasmine]

19 hours ago, Shep said:

 

 

 

 

 

@YasmineJ'ai lu votre fil et en raison de votre réduction de 50% en mai, je vais être d'accord avec Gridley que vous ne devriez pas diminuer pendant au moins un mois. Veuillez revenir à la dose que vous avez prise le mois dernier. En diminuant trop tôt, vous risquez d'allumer (traumatiser) votre système nerveux. 

 

Veuillez donner à votre système nerveux le temps de se stabiliser. 

 

Dormiez-vous davantage lorsque vous preniez 2 mg de  lormétazépam ? Avez-vous eu des améliorations de vos symptômes au cours du dernier mois depuis que vous avez réduit la dose de 2 mg à 1 mg ? 

 

La raison pour laquelle je demande, c'est parce que vous êtes juste en dehors de la fenêtre de sécurité pour mettre à jour. Nous ne recommandons généralement pas de mettre à jour un benzo après un mois de la dernière réduction. Cependant, c'est toujours une option qui pourrait aider car vous êtes toujours proche de cette fenêtre. Veuillez nous faire savoir comment vous vous sentez maintenant par rapport à ce que vous ressentiez juste avant cette réduction de dose de 50 % de 2 mg à 1 mg. 

 

Hello@Shep@Erell@Gridley 

 

Could you please help me because I am so confused and very scared.

Do you mean I should go back to 2mg or 1mg? I was already on 1mg since 25th of May. 

I started to drop 10% 2 days ago,  July the 1st with 0.0.099. What dose do I have to take this evening?  Go back to 1mg for 1 month more? 

I had a very bad night, woke up at 1h40 because my right hand went numb several times . And I have the feeling like it's burning. But all these problems started last April 2020 after I had a surgery on 28th February 2020 (the tingling, burning, vertigo, etc...then Tinnitus. I suspect the prednol that I was ask to take 2 per day for 10 days or arveles painkillers or antibiotics or the anesthesia. 

On the 17th I started to take sleeping drug benzo 2mg because couldn't sleep for weeks due to tinnitus. 

And after taking these drug one and half month later, I developed Hyperacusis. 

What I can remember when I was taking the 2mg. It was not efficient anymore . I told my Dr about it and requested to increase the dose. And I refused to do so.

 

[Shep]

1 hour ago, Yasmine said:

Do you mean I should go back to 2mg or 1mg? I was already on 1mg since 25th of May. 

 

I'm sorry for the confusion, Yasmine. I meant go back to 1 mg, where you were a couple of days ago. 

 

1 hour ago, Yasmine said:

What I can remember when I was taking the 2mg. It was not efficient anymore . I told my Dr about it and requested to increase the dose. And I refused to do so.

 

On 6/27/2021 at 10:13 AM, Yasmine said:

I also used so many others suppléments and herbals teas since I got Tinnitus such : B1, B3, B6, B9, B12, D3k2, Zinc, bacopa, Griffonia, Rohdiola and Safran, Kava Kava, valerian, 

hawthorn, passionflower, melisse, lavander .....etc 

I stoped taking everything since last month except Iron and B12

 

You were smart not to increase the dose as your doctor recommended. 

 

But I'm concerned about the timing of stopping these supplements and how that may have affected benzo tolerance. Some of these supplements, such as valerian, passionflower, and Kava Kava, affect GABA similar to a benzo. 

 

Do you know the date in May that you stopped these supplements? 

 

The fact that you removed the sedating supplements but remained on the stimulating supplements may also be a reason you're having poor sleep. Please note that both iron and B12 can be stimulating, especially for someone with a destabilized nervous system.

 

Please see this post by Alto about dealing with B12 and a destabilized nervous system. The important concepts are highlighted in red: 

 

Alto's post in the B12 thread

 

If you must take supplements such as iron and vitamin B12, they are best tolerated in the morning due to any stimulating effects they may have on sleep. 

 

Unless you've had blood work showing you're deficient in these vitamins, you may want to focus on eating a healthy diet rich in iron and vitamin B12 nutrients. Unless you're a vegetarian, you may already be getting enough of these in the meat, fish, and eggs in your diet. 

 

18 hours ago, Erell said:

We advise people to try to stabilise before attempting a taper, meaning holding for some time to let your symptoms fade and practicing selfcare and non drug coping skills.

Starting a taper while already feeling destabilised can mean taking the risk to destabilise further.

 

Yasmine, I just want to draw attention to what Erell wisely wrote here. This is key. Unfortunately, we cannot give an exact timeline of when you will stabilize, but you've been through so many changes over the past 6 weeks. Please give yourself more time to stabilize before reducing your drug. 

 

 

[Yasmine]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

 

I'm sorry for the confusion, Yasmine. I meant go back to 1 mg, where you were a couple of days ago. 

 

 

 

You were smart not to increase the dose as your doctor recommended. 

 

But I'm concerned about the timing of stopping these supplements and how that may have affected benzo tolerance. Some of these supplements, such as valerian, passionflower, and Kava Kava, affect GABA similar to a benzo. 

 

Do you know the date in May that you stopped these supplements? 

 

The fact that you removed the sedating supplements but remained on the stimulating supplements may also be a reason you're having poor sleep. Please note that both iron and B12 can be stimulating, especially for someone with a destabilized nervous system.

 

Please see this post by Alto about dealing with B12 and a destabilized nervous system. The important concepts are highlighted in red: 

 

Alto's post in the B12 thread

 

If you must take supplements such as iron and vitamin B12, they are best tolerated in the morning due to any stimulating effects they may have on sleep. 

 

Unless you've had blood work showing you're deficient in these vitamins, you may want to focus on eating a healthy diet rich in iron and vitamin B12 nutrients. Unless you're a vegetarian, you may already be getting enough of these in the meat, fish, and eggs in your diet. 

 

 

Yasmine, I just want to draw attention to what Erell wisely wrote here. This is key. Unfortunately, we cannot give an exact timeline of when you will stabilize, but you've been through so many changes over the past 6 weeks. Please give yourself more time to stabilize before reducing your drug. 

 

 

Hello @Shep,

 

Thank you for your advices.

 

The first time I took supplements in my life (except the Iron, and D3, I have deficiency) ,was on October 2020 because of Tinnitus, I was Trying everything to calm the ringing and to get better sleep. I also start Valerian , Zinc, B12(cyanocobalamin) last October and the melatonin spray with hawthorn recommended by another Dr. I took them few months and stoped.

Then, I heard that the best b12 is the form methylcobalamin, So I order another one with drops on February.

I also started D3+K2 on the 17th of February 2021.

I started Vitamin B3 and B1 on 23rd of April 2021.

Vitamin A: 20th of May 2021

Another form of Zinc 15mg and Ashwagandha on 21st of May 2021.

Unfortunately for the kava kava and bacopa , I don't remember the dates because Mr Dr gave them to me. 

I also sometimes took 1/4 or 1/2 lexomil (bromazepam) for anxiety as per Dr and when I couldn't sleep because I dropped the lormezetapam from 2mg to 1mg then to 0,5mg then. 0,25 last October until February 2021 but not regularly . At that time, I was also taking magnesium , CBD oil because of insomnia. 

Then I Guess it was approximatively around March that I had to increase to 2mg of Lormezetapam  until May. From March to May , I didn't take notes,  so I don't remember all the dates. 

 

According to my bood test, my ferritine was always low (17, then 23) and hemoglobine 10,8 and I have read that a lack of Iron was also a cause of Tinnitus and the iron bisglycinate with Vitamin C was better and should be taken 2 hours before breakfast, I have started this form together with B12 methylcobalamin tablet form on the 8th of June.

The 3rd of June, I saw anther Dr who recommended homeopathic capsules that I strated the 4th of June (3 pills Actaea 7 ch and Arnica 8 pills 15ch n the mornng) Natrum 9ch in the eveningn.

I have stoped taking Bacopa, 5 HTP, Rhodiola Safran spasmine the 10th of June 2021.

 

The only supplements I am taking since June are : 

Iron bisglycinate around 6-7 am and B12 and homeopathic capsules which are almost finished. 

The only reason I continue with the Iron, is because I have a deficiency and because I am not sure if it is a placebo, it seems that my ringing lessen.

Do you think that the tingling, numbness and burning sensation in my body even in my eyes can disappear ? And That I will be able to sleep without any supplements , or herbals teas such as camomile? 

In conclusion, I go back to 1mg of lormezetapam from tonight and see how I a feel after a month ?

 

Thank you su much for your help and support

Greetings,

Yasmin 

 

 

[Shep]

20 hours ago, Yasmine said:

I have stoped taking Bacopa, 5 HTP, Rhodiola Safran spasmine the 10th of June 2021.

 

When did you start taking these supplements? 

 

20 hours ago, Yasmine said:

Vitamin A: 20th of May 2021

Another form of Zinc 15mg and Ashwagandha on 21st of May 2021.

 

Many of the supplements you've mentioned, such as 5 HTP, Rhodiola, Ashwagandha, etc. have effects on GABA and serotonin, so it's possible that some of the symptoms you had back in May that led you to reduce the benzo may have been interactions with all of these supplements. 

 

20 hours ago, Yasmine said:

Do you think that the tingling, numbness and burning sensation in my body even in my eyes can disappear ? And That I will be able to sleep without any supplements , or herbals teas such as camomile? 

 

Is chamomile tea the only herbal tea you are using? If not, please list all herbal teas you are drinking. Please note that chamomile also has an effect on GABA. It's very mild, but along with everything else you've been using, it may be causing problems. 

 

I would stop trying to fix withdrawal with all of these vitamins and supplements. If you feel you need iron and vitamin B12, then stick with those. I would keep your withdrawal journey as simple and uncomplicated as possible. 

 

20 hours ago, Yasmine said:

Do you think that the tingling, numbness and burning sensation in my body even in my eyes can disappear ? And That I will be able to sleep without any supplements , or herbals teas such as camomile? 

In conclusion, I go back to 1mg of lormezetapam from tonight and see how I a feel after a month ?

 

Definitely. I think you can get off this drug and heal. But I would throw away the calendar and stop looking for a specific date to taper. Right now, your nervous system is scrambling to deal with this massive overload of benzo, supplements, and abrupt changes. Give your nervous system time to rest. 

 

Benzos are notorious for causing paradoxical reactions. So the less you add in with supplements, the easier your journey will be. 

[Yasmine]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

When did you start taking these supplements? 

 

 

Many of the supplements you've mentioned, such as 5 HTP, Rhodiola, Ashwagandha, etc. have effects on GABA and serotonin, so it's possible that some of the symptoms you had back in May that led you to reduce the benzo may have been interactions with all of these supplements. 

 

 

Is chamomile tea the only herbal tea you are using? If not, please list all herbal teas you are drinking. Please note that chamomile also has an effect on GABA. It's very mild, but along with everything else you've been using, it may be causing problems. 

 

I would stop trying to fix withdrawal with all of these vitamins and supplements. If you feel you need iron and vitamin B12, then stick with those. I would keep your withdrawal journey as simple and uncomplicated as possible. 

 

 

Definitely. I think you can get off this drug and heal. But I would throw away the calendar and stop looking for a specific date to taper. Right now, your nervous system is scrambling to deal with this massive overload of benzo, supplements, and abrupt changes. Give your nervous system time to rest. 

 

Benzos are notorious for causing paradoxical reactions. So the less you add in with supplements, the easier your journey will be. 

Hello @Shep

Thank you very much for your help. I appreciate it.

Unfortunately I don't remember exactly when I took 5htp , Bacopa ...but I guess it was from October or November last year 2020 under the supervision of the Dr, again he never warned me about the danger of taking this supplements. He provided the Kava Kava, Rhodiole, Griffonia.

Regarding the herbal teas, I have tried : nettle, melissa, dandelion, verbana, green tea, thyme, licorce, lavender (once), except rosemary, melissa and chamomille, I have not taken them continuously over several consecutive days. I guess  again I don't remember the date but it should be in November last year. I haven't take any herbal teas for maybe 4 days now.

I don't really like teas, As I was so distraught  because of Tinnitus, I have tried everything that lessen the ringing for others that I have read on  Tinnitus support groups. 

I reviewed my phone diary and found out these notes :

17 May 2020 : 6mg Lexomil because this was the week the Tinnitus have started. 

19 May 2020 : Diosmine (for blood circulation as I had tingling and numbness for more that a month) , plus 1|2 Lexomil

20 May 2020 : 2mg Lormétazepam + 1/2 bromazepam (lexomil)

16 June 2020 : first time Vitamin A (one capsule /week) until september 2020

17 August 2020 : 1st day of Prosac, I took it one and half month

06 October : Bach flowers (25 drops diluated in 1l Water? did not continue more than a month

29th October : stopped drinking coffe for 3 months

31st October 2020 : 0,5mg of Lormetazepam

10th November 2020 : 1rst night without Lormétazepam but I took 1/2 lexomil and melatonin instead and valerian eschscholtzia

13th November : 0,25 mg Lormetazepam plus 1/4 Lexomil

14th December 2020: St. Johns Wort oil  massaging around the ears but not continuously 

15th November 2020 : 1/4 Lexomil (bromazepam) plus melatonin

23 rd November 2020 : 1/2 bromazepam plus melatonin

24th November 2020 : Slept without drug but with valerian and melatonin

25th November : 1/4 bromazepam plus magnesium, melatonin because impossible to sleep

05th December : Start again 1/4 of Lormetazepam because couldn't fight anymore with sleep

06th December : 1/2 lormetazepam

8th December : back to 1mg Lormetazepam , I did anything out of ignorance juggling between 0.5mg and 1mg. until May 2021

23rd of April 2021 : I also took capsules of melisse, valerian, eschscholtzia (2/ evening , did not finished , 28 capsules in total)

 

04th May 2021 : back to 2mg of Lormetazepam

 

25th of May 2021 : drop to 1mg again until now did not increased again. And never listened again the Dr advices 

3rd June : added homeopathic capsules  as per another Doctor

8th June 2021 : first day new iron with vitamin C and b12 sublingual 

10th June 2021 stopped all supplements except iron , b12 and homeopathic capsules

3rd July 2021 : 1mg Lormetazepam at 22h40

 

Today 04th July, Only took iron at 7h35 am

 

I am not sure If I have mentioned that now I am 99 % sure  of the reasons which caused these problems. 

Indeed, all problems started on 1st April 2020 after a surgery done on the 28th of February, 

At that time I did not have yet Tinnitus and hyperacusis but my right leg started to go numb. Then 

I felt tingling feelings from the toes to the top of my head. Even the muscles of my face were not spared, my eyes and gums were itching, I had burning sensations in my chest. I was given a vein drain and a few days or weeks later , the Tinnitus started. I later learned through the groups that the drug or supplements for blood circulation were bad for ears.

 

At that time, I was telling my doctor that the drugs I was given while the anesthesia and after (prednol cortizon, arveles painkillers, antibiotic... ) were responsible of my problems. I told him that I feel like a poison is circulating in my veines.

But He told me : don't be silly , the drugs are not left anymore in your body since you had your surgery for 1 and half month ago.

But my doubts were confirmed , unfortunately very late, when some persons posted the same drugs, a person wrote that he had Tinnitus after taking a week the same painkillers and for the other drug prednol , many people commented that it was a very dangerous drug, that it should not stopped without taper and even symptoms can appear years later, I had to take 2 pills per day for 10 days.

Therefore, I could not sleep for a month, and went 2 times to emergency but they gave me a drug with morphine that I took once.

After I got Tinnitus on May, My doctor gave 2mg Lormezetapam the first time on 17th of May 2020 and told me that a lack of sleep worsen the Tinnitus and that I won't be dependent on it. Moreover he never warned me about withdrawal or taper whereas I told him about the first I drop from 2mg to 1mg last October 2020, even the acupuncture Dr didn't , she was happy for me. 

I have done many tests, seen 8 ENT specialist....done 2 MRi ,....

Then, I realized after 1 and half month on benzos that I have developed hyperacusis.

5 members of my family has Tinnitus but none of them took sleeping drug and none of them had hyperacusis. I was wondering if this was really a coincidence?

 

Now , I am in vicious circle and very scared because I also heard that benzos withdrawal causes Tinnitus and hyperacusis. 

 

I am sorry if I wrote to long but I just want you to understand better why I have all these symptoms.

 

I will definitely follow your advices and stop all supplements except the iron (  I take 2 pills of 17mg each and 300mg vitamin C early in the morning , 12 days left) and stabilize for at least a months. 

Do you think these symptoms that were caused by the drugs taken after surgery can last for years?

 

Thank you some much for providing such valuables informations.

 

Best regards,

Yasmin

 

[Shep]

23 hours ago, Yasmine said:

Do you think these symptoms that were caused by the drugs taken after surgery can last for years?

 

Thanks for taking the time to write out this timeline, Yasmine. Yes, I think taking these drugs can cause these symptoms and the effects can last for several years, even after you come off them. Please see:

 

Are We There Yet? How Long Is Withdrawal Going To Take?

 

However, tinnitus is also a side effect of these drugs, so it's likely worse now than it will be once you come off and you're only dealing with tinnitus as a withdrawal effect. In other words, it will get better. 

 

I would go onto a very long hold (again, please throw away the calendar). Avoid the supplements that aren't necessary. Eat healthy, drink plenty of water, take a daily walk in nature, if possible, do yoga or gentle stretches every day, and do as much self care as you can. 

[Yasmine]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Thanks for taking the time to write out this timeline, Yasmine. Yes, I think taking these drugs can cause these symptoms and the effects can last for several years, even after you come off them. Please see:

 

Are We There Yet? How Long Is Withdrawal Going To Take?

 

However, tinnitus is also a side effect of these drugs, so it's likely worse now than it will be once you come off and you're only dealing with tinnitus as a withdrawal effect. In other words, it will get better. 

 

I would go onto a very long hold (again, please throw away the calendar). Avoid the supplements that aren't necessary. Eat healthy, drink plenty of water, take a daily walk in nature, if possible, do yoga or gentle stretches every day, and do as much self care as you can. 

Hello @Shep 

 

Oh my God, it can last for years? 

I will take time to read the link you shared. Thank you.

If I well understood I have to stay in 1mg for months but how will I know when it would be the best time to taper? 

And what will I have to do if I enter in tolerance? If the 1mg will not be efficient anymore?

Will it not be more difficult to get rid of this benzo the more I stay on it? 

 

Thank you for your help

 

Greetings 

Yasmin

[Shep]

18 hours ago, Yasmine said:

Oh my God, it can last for years? 

 

The goal is to stabilize so that you're not suffering so much and you can function, even if you do have lingering symptoms. The more you can do to keep your drugs and supplements consistent and to not try to fix your symptoms by adding in a bunch of supplements or other drugs, the easier it is for your nervous system to recover. This means learning the non-drug methods of handling your symptoms. 

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

18 hours ago, Yasmine said:

If I well understood I have to stay in 1mg for months but how will I know when it would be the best time to taper? 

 

You'll want to reach a certain level of stability. It's what Brassmonkey calls "withdrawal normal." Please see:

 

Withdrawal Normal

 

18 hours ago, Yasmine said:

And what will I have to do if I enter in tolerance? If the 1mg will not be efficient anymore?

Will it not be more difficult to get rid of this benzo the more I stay on it? 

 

 

Please see:

 

"Benzo Tolerance withdrawal" during tapering -- does it exist?

 

At your current dose of 1 mg, you're still struggling.  Whether it's because it's no longer working or whether it's due to the numerous changes you've made by a 50% reduction, additions and subtractions of numerous supplements, or side effects of your current drug or supplements is unknown. There are many variables in the symptoms' equation. 

 

What is known is tapering too fast can cause problems, so that's why we recommend holding and letting all of these changes settle down so you have a clearer baseline. 

 

 

 

 

[Yasmine]

On 04/07/2021 at 13:15, Shep said:

 

When did you start taking these supplements? 

 

 

Many of the supplements you've mentioned, such as 5 HTP, Rhodiola, Ashwagandha, etc. have effects on GABA and serotonin, so it's possible that some of the symptoms you had back in May that led you to reduce the benzo may have been interactions with all of these supplements. 

 

 

La tisane à la camomille est-elle la seule tisane que vous utilisez ? Sinon, veuillez énumérer toutes les tisanes que vous buvez. Veuillez noter que la camomille a également un effet sur le GABA. C'est très doux, mais avec tout ce que vous avez utilisé, cela peut causer des problèmes. 

 

J'arrêterais d'essayer de réparer le sevrage avec toutes ces vitamines et ces suppléments. Si vous sentez que vous avez besoin de fer et de vitamine B12, respectez-les. Je garderais votre voyage de retrait aussi simple et simple que possible. 

 

 

Absolument. Je pense que vous pouvez arrêter ce médicament et guérir. Mais je jetterais le calendrier et arrêterais de chercher une date précise pour diminuer. À l'heure actuelle, votre système nerveux se démène pour faire face à cette surcharge massive de benzo, de suppléments et de changements brusques. Donnez à votre système nerveux le temps de se reposer. 

 

Les benzos sont connus pour provoquer des réactions paradoxales. Donc, moins vous ajoutez de suppléments, plus votre voyage sera facile. 

Hello @Shep

I know you advised to not taking any supplements and I did stopped them since the 10th of Jun.

However I have read today that the Korean RED ginseng can help reducing Tinnitus.

Do you think this ginseng could interfers with benzos?

 

Please see below the post I have read :

 

"Hey, I just joined so I could share a couple of positive things.  First off I developed tinnitus in 2018, a hotel I was staying in in Amsterdam had a generator on the wall that hummed so loudly I couldn't sleep.  The next day the hum never left.  For the first few days the hiss turned into a buzz, a pulsing and a combination of all 3.  I remember being in the shower wanting to cry, I'd never felt so low.

I went to ENT, no tumours, did a hearing test and was told that's it, there's no cure you're going to have to live with it.  I spoke to my dad and surprisingly he told me had tinnitus ( the first positive news I'm sharing ) it turns out he went on a cruise and fired a shotgun without ear defenders and had a ringing in his ears for four years.  He told me he woke up one day and it was gone, this was over 10 years ago and it never came back!

For me however I'd only had it a few weeks now and it made me so depressed.  I decided I'd try and cure it myself and went through all the Reddit tricks, apple cider vinegar, zinc picolnate, transdermal magnesium, Gingko, B12 injections you name it I tried it.  In fact some of them seemed to make it worse.

Fast forward a few years and I stumbled across a paper about KRG being tested on tinnitus sufferers.  I decided there and then I had to try it.  KRG is Korean red ginseng a.k.a panex ginseng.  The roots allowed to grow for six years and because of this the ginseng is full of ginsenosides.  These are what scientists believe help tinnitus sufferers suffer less.

I bought mine on Amazon, it's called lavivant or something, it's fermented.  I'll post more tomorrow if anyone's interested.  I've been taking it for two weeks now and it's made a noticeable difference.  No more change in tone, less intrusive at night.  I thought given how awful tinnitus is I had to share this with you so maybe others could benefit.

Stay positive,
Matt " 

[Shep]

12 hours ago, Yasmine said:

However I have read today that the Korean RED ginseng can help reducing Tinnitus.

Do you think this ginseng could interfers with benzos?

 

I think you'll have less tinnitus by slowly tapering off your drugs. 

 

I don't know anything about Korean red ginseng. Please do your research. 

[Shep]

@Yasmine Gridley already mentioned this on the first page of your intro topic, but I think it's worth repeating: 

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements, as many members report their nervous systems are simply too fragile to handle them. However, magnesium and fish oil tend to be calming to the nervous system and many people report they do help. Please only add in one supplement at a time and at a small dose. For more, please see:

 

 King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

[Yasmine]

12 minutes ago, Shep said:

@Yasmine Gridley l'a déjà mentionné sur la première page de votre sujet d'introduction, mais je pense que cela vaut la peine de le répéter : 

 

Nous ne recommandons pas beaucoup de suppléments, car de nombreux membres signalent que leur système nerveux est tout simplement trop fragile pour les gérer. Cependant, le magnésium et l'huile de poisson ont tendance à calmer le système nerveux et de nombreuses personnes déclarent qu'elles aident. Veuillez n'ajouter qu'un seul supplément à la fois et à petite dose. Pour en savoir plus, veuillez consulter :

 

 Roi des suppléments : les acides gras oméga-3 (huile de poisson)

 

Magnésium, bloqueur naturel des canaux calciques

 

Hello @Shep

 

Yes I know, I have already read that. But when you are desperate with that noise, you are willing to try anything to make it stop or lessen. This time, I didn't want to try anything before asking you.

Thank you for having remind it to me.

 

Best regards, 

Yasmin