Kat66: should I reinstate or plough on drug free?

[Finnishgirl]

Hi Kat, just popping by to say hi! Just noticed you started your taper in a little bit similar situation as I am going to. Feeling crappy now and waiting for some months so that I can start my taper. How much did you stabilize before you started tapering? 

 

Sending you hugs and healing! ❤️

[Kat66]

Hi @Finnishgirl thanks for stopping by. So sorry you're feeling crappy! I started my taper after three weeks or so drug free after coming off citalopram 20mg cold turkey. Hope that helps? It's all in my signature anyway. How is your situation similar to mine? Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know.

 

Sending hugs and healing back xx

[Kat66]

Hi guys, I just need to brain dump. I am so sick of feeling like cr*p. I keep wondering whether this WD journey is worth it. I have no feelings for my husband and am constantly irritated and angry with him. Mind you I feel like that about everything. But to feel like your marriage is disintegrating before your eyes after knowing you once had a strong and stable connection is really beginning to take its toll on me. I keep wondering whether to restart therapy but earlier in the year I had to stop therapy because it was too 'stimulating' for my CNS. So I don't know if restarting therapy would be a good idea or not. I just sit here on the verge of tears wondering how much more I actually take before I blurt out 'I'm leaving'. I'm post-menopausal too which I suppose can't be helping either. I don't know who I am any more. The slightest thing that goes wrong I crumble like a soufflé or lose the plot like a crazy woman. I know there are no answers and it's a case of 'just keep going' but sometimes I don't know if I have much more left in the tank...

[Roserdl]

Kat

 

Something to consider besides therapy

 

there are other forums with more organized emotional support.  This forum is more tapering advice and tough love.  Baylissa Fredrick compassionfocusedhealing.com

 

It costs 50 bucks a month but there is a zoom support group and her focus is nurturing and helping people not give up

 

I also use coaches because they can give perspective we don't have.  Though it sounds like you are doing great with coping skills . 

 

How you feel in wd has nothing to do with your true deeper connections.   I understand,  i actually feel great love for people but it's all felt through loss and grief so it feels like someone died.  Only everyone has died. Grief grief grief.

 

This is not me, it's the neuroemotions.  When the depression calms in evenings there is a bit of the old connections.  I feel like I'm actually much more connected but the depression is masking it somewhat.  Before I was just blank.  So much of me is coming back alive bit it's all overamplified and extreme. 

 

I get it about not handling the tinest stressor.  I misplace my phone charger and I'm in tears.  Or anger.  It's worse than a 3 yr old.  It the wd not you.  

 

Big healing hugs

 

[arbor]

Dear @Kat66  W/d is true torture.  I'm so sorry you're having to deal with all this.

I hold you in my heart,

Arbor

[Kat66]

Thanks @Roserdl I'll have a think about the online coaching. Who do you use as a coach?

 

I feel like there are the old connections deep down but they're so deeply hidden by layers and layers of WD cr*p that has begun to feel 'real'. Can you explain more what you mean by 'I actually feel great love for people but it's all felt through loss and grief so it feels like someone died, only everyone has died' - I find that really interesting and would like to know more.

 

You are coming back alive - that's great, but from what you say about it being overamplified, it sounds scary too. Would that be right?

 

Thanks for the hugs - right back at you xxx

 

--------------

 

@arbor thanks for the thoughts - it really does help to know you're not alone xx

[Roserdl]

2 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Thanks @Roserdl I'll have a think about the online coaching. Who do you use as a coach?

 

I feel like there are the old connections deep down but they're so deeply hidden by layers and layers of WD cr*p that has begun to feel 'real'. Can you explain more what you mean by 'I actually feel great love for people but it's all felt through loss and grief so it feels like someone died, only everyone has died' - I find that really interesting and would like to know more.

 

You are coming back alive - that's great, but from what you say about it being overamplified, it sounds scary too. Would that be right?

 

Thanks for the hugs - right back at you xxx

 

--------------

 

@arbor thanks for the thoughts - it really does help to know you're not alone xx

 

I understand.  Everything gets muted and distorted through w/d and it can be hard to find authentic emotions through the haze of pain and disconnect.

 

Its hard to articulate the specific feelings I have.  I can say in the beginning it was just numb and I often felt like you, I wondered if I loved my partner anymore.  But, instead I feel pulls of connection and faint positive feelings and a deep missing now.   Everything is so colored by the w/d depression which is so not depression , at least not any depression I ever had and I have had bouts since I was a kid.  It feels more like mental torment.   This usually lifts in evenings and I can get a clearer understanding of where I am at emotionally.   I am deeply in love with my partner more than ever, I know that.  He is probably the main reason I keep going along with the kids. 

 

And, yes, its scary and overwhelming because its all SOOOOOO intense.  Its grief right now, it was anger a bit ago.  The grief is that I can so deeply feel love again but it is all processed through the pain.  So, when I try to reach out and feel the love as I normally do, it just is this huge sense of loss.  Before I was more frustrated....like I can't feel ANYTHING.  Now, it is painful except in the evenings when I can have some kind of muted connection and positivity.  This is how I know the depression is blocking it because when it lifts there is something else there.  I find this hopeful because many people report having the initial early extreme depression lift after a few months off drug.  I also just feel very filled in, like I'm RIGHT there now.

 

I actually think if I hadn't reinstated I would be doing pretty well by now as I have made a LOT of progress even reinstating and then dropping down again. 

 

I use Baylissa as a coach and have used Michael Priebe who is pretty faith based.  This is an asset to some and turns some others off.  Michael is very proactive as he did a lot of exercise and distraction and prayer (he healed within two years I think even breaking 'the rules' and tapering off a benzo when he was in the worst acute withdrawa plus a few other things that you will be warned to doom you to the worst cases.  Baylissa is very compassionate and she is good to talk to when you need reassurance   She is very much under the belief you will heal as long as you self care. 

 

I really like her new coaching website.  You get an online group meeting every week which makes it a veyr good deal and she has good rules which doesn't create an environment of hopelessness (endless dwelling on symptoms is not allowed, one check in room for that and I avoid it). . Its emotionally supportive which to be fair, SA is set up as a information site about tapering advice and coping skills.  There is also inner compass exchange which I like because it honors people's decisions and more focused on following your own inner guidance than simply adhering to a set of rules.  I wish I had found S.A. before I began the process of going off, I would have approached it vastly different.  Find the other sites better for the situation I find myself in now.

 

I'm really sorry things are so tough now.  I would consider joining Baylissa's group -

 

https://compassionfocusedhealing.com/feed

 

Inner compass has a member chat feature.  I have been getting some good support there from members.  I have a few people who cold turkeyed or went on and off again early and they are all doing much better about 1 to 2 years off all drugs which is reassuring. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kat66]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:13 PM, Roserdl said:

 w/d depression which is so not depression , at least not any depression I ever had and I have had bouts since I was a kid.  It feels more like mental torment.

 

Bang on. I remember having bouts of depression myself, but this is soooooooo different, like you say, mental torment. I sometimes feel like I'm alone on a desolate plain with horrible winds howling all around me, like that is my permanent existence. It's so difficult to put this experience into words!

 

Everything DOES feel like a loss, you're right. We are morning the loss of our previous lives perhaps, and see everything through that prism.

 

Thanks for the coaching info. I don't know if it's right for me at the moment, but I'll keep it in mind!

 

xx

[Kat66]

So, an update. 

 

I cut from 1.1mg to 1mg a couple of days ago. I wasn't feeling great but I'd been feeling consistently not great for a while so figured, what the heck, just do it. Big mistake. I've got the most awful depression, and feel dead inside with anhedonia, not to mention the usual rage and irritability which has also ramped up. Life really does feel empty of all joy and purpose.

 

I'm amazed such a tiny cut could have such a huge effect, but I guess that's the way it works when you get this low and this gradual?

 

Wishing everyone peace and recovery from this nightmare x

[Shep]

 

 

21 hours ago, Kat66 said:

I'm amazed such a tiny cut could have such a huge effect, but I guess that's the way it works when you get this low and this gradual?

 

Yes, many people report the lower doses to be especially hard to taper. And there's science behind it to back it up:

 

Why taper? SERT transporter occupancy studies show importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

 

Since your reduction was so recent, you may want to updose and hold for a bit. 

[Kat66]

5 hours ago, Shep said:

Since your reduction was so recent, you may want to updose and hold for a bit. 

I considered this, as it’s so close to Christmas with all the attendant stresses, but I thought it might be like kindling and be too disruptive, going down then up again….you think after only a few days on the lower dose it won’t be too disruptive to go up again?

[Shep]

14 hours ago, Kat66 said:

I considered this, as it’s so close to Christmas with all the attendant stresses, but I thought it might be like kindling and be too disruptive, going down then up again….you think after only a few days on the lower dose it won’t be too disruptive to go up again?

 

It may be less difficult on your nervous system to updose. If it helps settle the nervous system, than it's going to help prevent kindling. I would either updose or go into a long hold, paying close attention to a clean diet and getting plenty of water and plenty of rest over the holiday season and as you rightly note, "all the attendant stresses." 

[Kat66]

Thanks @Shep I’ll go back up to 1.1mg and hold for the foreseeable as these symptoms are intolerable. The annoying thing is though, I’ll still get the same symptoms when I cut next so I’m just delaying the inevitable. 
 

Thanks for your input Shep it is much appreciated x

[Shep]

@Kat66 Updosing and holding for a awhile sounds like a great plan. 

 

Going forward, you may want to taper more slowly. Now that you're in the low range of this drug, the drug concentration may be still be high. Please see:

 

Why taper? SERT transporter occupancy studies show importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

[Kat66]

Thanks for the link @Shep x

[Kat66]

Hi all, I wish everyone continued healing in the midst of this nightmare. 

 

I have just come out of a longish window and am back in a crushing wave AGAIN! I know this is the way of things, I just need to put my head down and get on with it, but it's hard when you're in the midst of this storm to think straight and remember all the advice. I'm struggling through, using SELF COMPASSION and SELF CARE as the main tools. Nevertheless I feel very isolated and alone, and don't want to connect with my husband or anyone else for that matter. My mind is filled with negativity and I have felt quite frequently like I don't want to do 'life' anymore. I'm aware of this and trying to acknowledge to myself that I need to dial 'life' back when I feel like this until it passes. I just want to be alone and in a cocoon. I hate myself and the world right now so I'm probably not the most fun person to be around anyway. My anhedonia is off the scale and I'm not sleeping well at all, but lemon balm capsules (900mg per day) seem to help with this. Watching police dramas is helping to distract me, I need constant distraction from the horror show in my head.

 

Getting to my pillow every night is paramount. I'm holding at a miniscule 1.1mg citalopram.

 

Wishing everyone peace from this nightmare x

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66,

Hopefully you have seen some relief from your latest wave. I relate to much of what you said above.

 

Are you still holding at 1.1? I’ve just completed another 5% drop to 2.74. What a slog, eh?

 

Hugs,

Believer

[Kat66]

Hi @Believer so sweet of you to check in. A slog indeed it is. I’m still in this bl**dy wave. Just trying to get through each day the best I can but dealing with the most awful intrusive and negative thoughts and emotions.

 

How’s your latest cut going? I’m thinking about cutting to 1mg. 
 

I’m starting some talk therapy tomorrow to try and deal with the horrors in my head.

 

X

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66

Yeah, one day at a time. It’s difficult when those thoughts come flying at you. And tiring when it feels like you’re constantly redirecting or denying them. I’m having a bit of a reprieve today…… whew.

 

Did your therapist have any pearls of wisdom?

 

Have you made a cut recently or are you waiting for more stability?

 

My latest cut may have been a bit difficult about a week in, but not too bad. I’m about two weeks in now and today I’m feeling a bit of a break. We’ll see what tomorrow brings. 😜 At least the dose is getting lower.

[Kat66]

My brain is so tired right now. I can't concentrate on anything; reading, videos, work, anything much. I can just about cope with TV shows but they can't be too demanding. My therapist is helping me through issues with negative thought loops and an extremely negative self-image, which as I've said, are so destructive in WD. 

 

I'm on my 4th day of going from 1.1mg to 1mg in 5 increments. I honestly couldn't tell you what the increments are, I've just gone down slightly every day until I reach 1mg. No nasties so far. 

 

Lower is always better - we can get there! Are you doing a gradual cut?

 

Hugs xx

 

 

[Greatful]

@Kat66 

Hang in there Kat66.  This is a grueling journey.. Dig down deep and let time pass and drag you into the next window....

Sending you a hug🤗

[Kat66]

Thanks @Greatful sending a hug right back at you xx

 

 

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66,

How are you feeling, you’re what 4 days on 1 mg? I usually feel the cut between the first and second week after reaching the full 5% drop.

 

I do a 1% cut for five days then hold 4-6 weeks. Have been doing this for years. Hopefully I won’t have to go any slower, but whatever it takes.

 

How’s your concentration doing, are you able to focus any better than when you last posted?

 

Hugs

[Kat66]

Hey @Believer so, so far my incremental cut from 1.1 to 1mg is going OK. I've reached 1mg and nothing bad so far. That could also have something to do with the fact I am having psychotherapy at the moment which is helping a lot, plus I've been switched to a higher dose HRT patch from tablets. I'm feeling an improvement definitely.

 

My concentration is still not great and my memory is shocking, but I've noticed a lift in my mood and energy levels.

 

Hugs back x

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66,

How are doing? I hope you’re still seeing some improvements. Have you gotten under 1mg yet?

[Kat66]

Hi @Believer I was just thinking about you the other day, thank you for checking in. I'm still in a reasonably good place and have been for three or four months now. I'm now at 0.8mg and doing the 5 day microtaper when I drop down. It seems to work really well. Touch wood my HRT patches are still working well and apart for the odd rage and low mood (which I've always been prone to anyway) things are under control.

 

How are YOU?

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66,

I am so glad to read that you’re feeling reasonably well! I remember that feeling (before I got the vax). I’m glad the micro taper is working for you. I continue reducing at 5% every 4-6 weeks and it continues to work well for me too. I don’t really notice an uptick in my crappy baseline so I will continue. In fact , some cuts I actually feel a bit better. I will cinture to slowly reduce though.

 

You're getting so close. Good on you!

[Kat66]

So are you @Believer. One day we'll look back at this crappy time as a distant memory.

[Kat66]

I've been in a really long good window since March until recently. A few weeks ago I entered the worst wave I've ever been in. Is this normal after a long, good window? I feel like I'm going crazy! Super agitated, raging (borderline losing it in public raging), depression off the scale, anhedonia, suicidal ideation, rumination, the whole range of cr@ppy symptoms.

[Kat66]

I could really use some advice please. I can’t take whatever is happening to me any more and am seriously thinking about reinstating at a full dose to get some relief. I am desperate. It’s the last thing I want to do as I’ve managed to get down to a very low dose but there’s only so much of this torture I can take and I’m in a very dark place. I’ve been having a lot of SI thoughts. 
hoping someone reads this and can offer some help.

 Thanks

 Kat

[Shep]

@Kat66 You have 4/10/23 0.7mg listed in your signature. Have you made any changes since April? If so, please update your signature so we know what your taper rate has been. 

 

Has anything changed as far as external stressors go, such as work or family stress? Any dietary changes? Any consumption of sugar, caffeine, or alcohol or did this just come out of the blue? 

[Kat66]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

@Kat66 You have 4/10/23 0.7mg listed in your signature. Have you made any changes since April? If so, please update your signature so we know what your taper rate has been. 

 

Has anything changed as far as external stressors go, such as work or family stress? Any dietary changes? Any consumption of sugar, caffeine, or alcohol or did this just come out of the blue? 

Hi @Shep you should be able to see previous cuts in my signature. I can see it all there. 3/3/23 1mg 18/4/23 0.9mg 2/6/23 0.8mg 4/10/23 0.7mg. I have recently flown back from Miami to the UK (long haul flying bad for sensitised CNS?) and picked up flu whilst we were out there too. My caffeine consumption is zero, sugar consumption as minimal as possible, I still have the odd drink but very minimal consumption. Dietary wise, I am vegan but had to eat dairy in Miami as the availability of vegan food there was limited. Other than that my diet is healthy. Plenty of veg fruit and grains/nuts etc.

Stressor wise I am a huge overthinker/ruminator and worry excessively about things, notably my marriage (relationship OCD type thoughts). So most of the stress I feel comes from my own faulty thinking (neuroemotions?)

I hope that helps?
Kat

[Greatful]

@Kat66  Oh Kat I hear your pain, fear and panic.  I am also in a horrific wave and feel very similar to you.

Please hold on.....  Battle fatigue is hard, you and I have been at this for a long time and would like for it to be over.   You were in a great place for several month this last summer. That shows your brain is making progress in it's healing.  My guess is your trip, along with seasons/weather changes and being sick, it's triggering a bigger wave.  I know you can do this.  Just make it to your pillow and tomorrow might be the break in the wave.  Please know that you are not alone.  People who go through this are about  the only ones that can remotely relate to what horrific ordeal this is.    I keep repeating to my hubby and my therapist that this is so inhumane.   

 

Here is a video from Michael P 

 Withdrawal & healing: Just give it a little more time https://youtu.be/yFrGxuiuga4?si=f-5hpcAaAv-BL4LV

 

Kat don't listen to your thoughts they are coming out of a brain that is not working right and trying to find

it's self.

I'm not  dismissing  how horribly torturous the thought can be,  I struggle with insane ocd thoughts and fears also.  Enough to feel like you are going insane.   My hubby reminds me that my brain is broken right now.

 

It' will get better Kath,  I know you would love  to punch me about now LOL.  I do when hubby tries the logic thinking on me when I am at my wits end .....It will pass, blah blah blah.   But it will get better it always does. Hang on to what ever skills you've been using, you can do this.

 

Much care and support 🌞

 

[Kat66]

@Greatful thank you my friend ❤️😘

[Kat66]

OK, so I've jumped off at 0.7mg and gone straight onto 200mg then 300mg then 400mg 5HTP daily (over 3 weeks), also introducing L-tyrosine at 200mg/day a couple of weeks ago. I've also started L-theanine too in the morning (about a month ago) and threw in a small amount of CBD oil for around 4 days.

 

My symptoms are off the scale so; stupid question, is it likely doing some or all the above has caused this increase in symptoms?

 

I would greatly appreciate some opinions from anyone, admins or anyone else on this please. Many many thanks.

[Jakeblack14]

Hey @Kat66, 

I cant say that I know what is happening so please don't take my suggestions to heart, listen to your body and determine what is best for you. 
 

2 hours ago, Kat66 said:

OK, so I've jumped off at 0.7mg and gone straight onto 200mg then 300mg then 400mg 5HTP daily (over 3 weeks)

In my experience with escitalopram (Lexapro), after my drop from .86 to 0, it took about a week and a half before I was hit with a really intense wave. I have now been having waves and windows every so often. In response to 5HTP and L-Theanine I tried that when I dropped from 10mg to 5mg (didnt know much about withdrawal yet) per my Psychiatrists suggestion. I had the worst wave of my life when I increased my 5HTP while trying to move down on medication. I think Citalopram has a half life of about a day and a half so its entirely possible that the small dosage still present could be having an interaction. It could be different for you, could have been a mild case of serotonin syndrome for me. I would advise Magnesium Glycinate and Omega3. 

CDB can also have negative effects when trying to come off these medications. 
Cannabis, marijuana, hashish, THC and CBD/cannabidiol or Hemp oil
Interactions Checker 

Good luck, keep going, listen to you.