Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

[JackieDecides]

On 6/17/2019 at 6:05 PM, AlexRussia said:

Anyone dealing with paradoxal fear of sleep/ibsomnia

 

for me, insomnia IS the fear of not sleeping.

 

not sleeping (or not sleeping well) for a night or two is normal (again, for me), but if I get into a fear of it and not relaxing, then it becomes insomnia.

 

 

[Altostrata]

To post #1, added Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration. Recommended!

[JackieDecides]

33 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

To post #1, added Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration. Recommended!

 

that looks excellent; last fall when I had terrible insomnia that was the therapy that really helped me. 

[ChessieCat]

Just wanted to mention something which may not have been thought of.

 

Some intestinal worms are common and easily transmitted, especially when around children.

 

Having worms can cause restless sleep.

 

I've also seen mention of having worms causing bruxism.

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by ChessieCat

[ShiningLight]

I have a big problem with interrupted sleep in withdrawal. I wake up a lot in the night.

 

I accidentally discovered that going to bed a little later than usual (an hour or two) seems to help. Maybe I fall into a harder sleep or something, I'm not sure. I wake up less times and I feel like my sleep is deeper.  I wanted to share it in case anyone else wants to try it. Before, I was trying to go to bed earlier. I don't think that helped.

[getofflex]

I personally like the Claire Weekes approach to anxiety and withdrawal.  I believe that getting too uptight about our insomnia only makes it worse.  Insomnia won't kill you.  Don't get desperate and highly anxious about having sleep issues.  Just accept it, go with the flow, and float with it. 

 

According to Dr Weekes, severe anxiety is caused by a primary fear, and then having secondary fear(anxiety) about the primary fear.  We have to let go of this secondary fear, because otherwise we are just consumed with anxiety, and it becomes a vicious cycle.  She has helped cure many people by teaching them to let go of anxiety about our anxiety, or anxiety about our sleeplessness or whatever.  There is a good one hour video on youtube that explains all this detail.  

 

[Asi1309]

So...

Does anyone has a successful method of getting a full night sleep?

[lilia]

Is it possible to have reaction to himalayan salt? I tried to use it and on my 2nd attempt  noticed strange reactions  - weakness ( and trembling) in solar plexus,  superficial heartbeat and extrasystoles for about 2 hours. And slept worse that night.

I was not sure that the reason  is in himalayan salt, so I tried again yesterday before bedtime - just took little pinch of salt with bread and had the same reactions. And again poor sleep. 

My nervous system has become extra sensitive since I have stopped paroxetine almost 4 years ago but it's too much for me - sensitivity even to himalayan salt! How to calm it?Cannot find anything that is helpful.

[Gridley]

9 minutes ago, lilia said:

himalayan salt?

I've not encountered this but just about anything is possible in withdrawal due to our sensitized symptoms.  I'd avoid it.

[lilia]

Thanks for reply Gridley. Surely I will avoid it, but have to avoid so many things! My life since 2016 is avoidance after avoidance after avoidance...That's miserable!

I will never be the same again. My nervous system is seriously upset and cannot recover by itself almost 4 years later. I weaken, my muscles are weakening because during physical activity receive solar plexus issues. For instance cannot walk more than 3-4 km with slow pace. If I have to walk fast I will drop out on my 1st km. Cannot get enough sleep. Seems that withdrawal is for the rest of life? 

[lilia]

On 8/15/2019 at 7:39 AM, ShiningLight said:

I have a big problem with interrupted sleep in withdrawal. I wake up a lot in the night.

 

I accidentally discovered that going to bed a little later than usual (an hour or two) seems to help. Maybe I fall into a harder sleep or something, I'm not sure. I wake up less times and I feel like my sleep is deeper.  I wanted to share it in case anyone else wants to try it. Before, I was trying to go to bed earlier. I don't think that helped.

 

ShiningLight, if you go to bed later, do you sleep longer? How early you wake up?

I desperately need to regain my morning sleep between 5-9 a.m.

[Gridley]

4 hours ago, lilia said:

Seems that withdrawal is for the rest of life? 

No, it really does end.  All I can say is that it will be frustrating and last a lot longer than we would like or that makes any sense, but it does end.

I have avoidance after avoidance too, with foods and exercise and social events and even just going to the no-stress little village down the mountain.  I look forward to the day when I can start adding things back to my life.  This is the hardest thing we'll ever go through, but we'll come out stronger on the other side.

[lilia]

11 hours ago, Gridley said:

No, it really does end.  All I can say is that it will be frustrating and last a lot longer than we would like or that makes any sense, but it does end.

 

Sounds encouraging, thank you. I hope to reach that but still living only with hope.

[JackieDecides]

I've had insomnia for decades but it got very, very bad more than a year ago. I found relief by following the advice - all of it - in the book Quiet Your Mind and Get to Sleep: Solutions to Insomnia for Those with Depression, Anxiety or Chronic Pain. authors are Carney and Manber.  I thought I knew all about sleep hygiene and so forth but I still learned from this book. 

 

since then I still have it sometimes but not nearly as bad and I feel a sense of hope, I guess, knowing that it will always be temporary.

 

you can learn to trust your body/mind - it will sleep, eventually. but a lot of things people do to make it better (like "trying" to fall asleep, or napping) can make it worse. 

 

 

[lxjuice]

I came here to post about CBT-I and I'm glad it already has been, and a source for the full course for free is brilliant with SRT calculations and everything.

The benefits can't be overstated. It works whether you're depressed or psychotic, whatever medication you are taking and if you are in withdrawal. Hopefully lots of people are using it.

[IanM]

Yet another site with sleep supplement suggestion (no affiliate links, I believe):

 

https://www.grc.com/health/sleep/healthy_sleep_formula.htm

 

There's one supplement there I've never heard of, and I thought I'd heard it all.

 

[IanM]

Yet another web site with a simple sleep 'hack'... couldn't hurt to try it:

 

https://www.treasuredtips.com/how-to-stay-asleep-all-night/

[Onmyway]

On 3/9/2020 at 5:20 AM, IanM said:

Yet another web site with a simple sleep 'hack'... couldn't hurt to try it:

 

https://www.treasuredtips.com/how-to-stay-asleep-all-night/

The stuff about salt and stress hormones is bogus (the rest too). Do not just take a spoonful of salt ever. We already eat way too much sodium (most of us). 

[IanM]

27 minutes ago, Onmyway said:

The stuff about salt and stress hormones is bogus (the rest too). Do not just take a spoonful of salt ever. We already eat way too much sodium (most of us). 

 

For what it's worth, the 'recipe' on the web site calls for 1/8 of a teaspoon of salt, not a spoonful as you suggest. But I'm no doctor, so I don't know if 1/8 of a teaspoon is bad (and I suppose I wouldn't even trust a doctor if they told me it was bad, anyway...sadly).

 

I guess I should retract my "couldn't hurt to try it" comment and change it to "try at your own risk."

 

[RM123]

Been feeling really anxious. Every morning and throughout the day. 
 

Really anxious this morning 

[Lzieb]

I have a few questions about my sleep cycle. I have started a new protocol that @Altostrata suggested ... I am only on the 3rd day. The problem is my body doesn't naturally fall asleep right now until 12-2. Last night I was up all night with tremors so I got no sleep but aside from that I seem to consistently not be able to fall asleep until then. I have had to use sleep hypnosis or meditation to sleep although that is inconsistent.The new protocol has me sleepy by 10 but I just will lay in bed. I feel like I get tired but I can't fall asleep...I feel like my mind is just blank. How can I switch the time I am tired from 12 or 2 to 10pm. How do you make yourself tired enough to fall asleep? It is actually starting to give me anxiety now. I still will try various things all night - sleep hypnosis, music, meditation but I get nowhere. And the last two night neither have worked. 

 

The CBT stuff suggests you get out of bed every 10 minutes. I have been doing that but it isn't working. Any encouragement or suggestions?

 

 

[Athena]

What is the new protocol that Alto suggested?

 

For a very long time, I just had to take what sleep my body would give me, whenever it was, even if I was over-exhausted.

 

What time do you get up in the morning?

[getofflex]

7 hours ago, Lzieb said:

I have a few questions about my sleep cycle. I have started a new protocol that @Altostrata suggested ... I am only on the 3rd day. The problem is my body doesn't naturally fall asleep right now until 12-2. Last night I was up all night with tremors so I got no sleep but aside from that I seem to consistently not be able to fall asleep until then. I have had to use sleep hypnosis or meditation to sleep although that is inconsistent.The new protocol has me sleepy by 10 but I just will lay in bed. I feel like I get tired but I can't fall asleep...I feel like my mind is just blank. How can I switch the time I am tired from 12 or 2 to 10pm. How do you make yourself tired enough to fall asleep? It is actually starting to give me anxiety now. I still will try various things all night - sleep hypnosis, music, meditation but I get nowhere. And the last two night neither have worked. 

 

The CBT stuff suggests you get out of bed every 10 minutes. I have been doing that but it isn't working. Any encouragement or suggestions?

 

 

I also have had big sleep issues with my ADWD.  I have had to let go of the belief that I absolutely have to sleep or I will die.  I have approached it by telling myself that it is not the end of the world is I'm sleep deprived.  In other words, I accept it.  I realize you feel terrible the day after a sleepless night, but sometimes that is just how it is.  I've come to realize that if I get too uptight about the sleep issue, that alone with cause my sleep issue to get worse.  Every time I do a taper, even the tiniest taper, I have sleep issues for several weeks, and then my sleep improves.  So, as a rule I don't do another taper until I have been able to sleep fairly OK for a couple of weeks.  Now, I will take Benadryl, Tylenol, or ibuprofen, all of which are mild over the counter drugs that can sedate you a little bit and are non addicting.  On nights I cannot sleep, I listen to very relaxing harp or piano or classical music at low volume on Spotify, or I will pray.  Both are relaxing, and it's better than just laying there.  Fortunately, after a few weeks, or a couple of months, I stablilize and I'm able to sleep again.  Good luck.  

[mustafa]

Hello every one,

I was wondering if, forwarding yourself (when going to sleep) to to a direction from the main four directions can affect sleep or not!!!

Musls were always forwarding them selves to to the direction of kabaa mosharafa in mekka which is the direction of qibla we forward to while praying( I mentioned this for any one who search for sources of my information).

What made me mention this is that I was sleeping in contrast of the direction of kabaa and I was falling asleep at 11 am and had very bad sleep but when I forward myself to the mentioned direction, I started to have good sleep quality and time.

@Altostrata, I know this thread is for melatoinin so I hope I didnt make any thing wrong. And please send me back any information that would discuss whether the direction of sleeping is effective or not.

Thanks for every one❤.

[Altostrata]

I doubt the direction of your body has anything to do with sleep. But if it works for you, it works.

[JackieDecides]

On 8/16/2020 at 10:46 AM, mustafa said:

when I forward myself to the mentioned direction, I started to have good sleep quality and time.

 

I am so glad you found what works for you. good sleep is so important. 😊

 

I recently started 

On 8/16/2020 at 10:46 AM, mustafa said:

I know this thread is for melatoinin so I hope I didnt make any thing wrong.

 

it is a thread for sleep tips so no worries. 

 

what is helping me lately is just having a pillow between my knees when I sleep on my side. straightens out my hips/back or something and I have less low back pain since I started doing it. 

 

I have mostly been getting 6 hours of sleep usually six days a week and often a day I have insomnia and end up only getting 2 - 4 hours. 

 

but, could be MUCH worse so I am happy with this. 

[ChessieCat]

I just had an ad come up when watching YouTube for a sleep mask.  It looks really comfortable.

 

Please note:  I have no affiliation with this product/company.  I receive no monetary gain from it either.  Just saw it and thought that it looked really good.

 

https://mantasleep.com/

 

[greyed]

I genuinely believe this is lifelong for me. I got off the mirtazapine too soon (cold turkey) and hell followed in the three weeks. I woke up after 3-4 hours every night and being unable to return to sleep. I was following a book that can help normal, non-depressed insomaniacs. Same waking time everyday no matter what, be calm, believe in the ability to sleep, keep active, get out of bed if can't sleep, etc. None of it was working. My best was a 5.5-6 hour sleep two nights in a row. Out of desperation, I went back to the med on half dosage and sleeping in in the day because I will continue to deteriorate if I don't.

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, greyed said:

I genuinely believe this is lifelong for me.

 

It might feel like it will not get better but it takes time, sometimes much longer than we would like it to.  It's important to learn and use:

 

non-drug-techniques-to-cope

 

And it helps to learn to accept the situation you are currently in.  Fighting against it takes emotional energy and adds stress to the body:

 

acceptance

 

Please see this topic, which has links to sub topics in Post #1:

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

[whatshappening]

This past month I've had 12 days of difficult sleep as I get down to a mere 3 mg dose of my tapering journey. Not consecutive nights.. but as a total.  I wonder if being on such a low dose is creating paradoxical effects versus these being withdrawal symptoms as my doctor pointed out. Anyway, During those difficult nights I get anywhere from 1.5 – 3 hours of sleep whether it comes right away after hitting the sack or whether it comes later when the sun is about to come up. Eventually there will be those days that my body catches up and I am thankful for that. But during the days that I don't I just do my best to try to stay productive if I can so that way I don't couple a bad nights rest with a bad unproductive day which tends to make me feel worse about myself. 

 

Things I'm trying currently: 

 

- Glass of wine. Yes I know what you all are going to say but it helps me to relax at the end of the day and I look forward to it. It's never interrupted my sleep all these years and I doubt I'll give it up even during these nights where my sleep is whacky.

- Nighty Night Tea w/ Valerian Root. The valerian aids in some grogginess which is good. 

- Lavender oil - This coupled with the Valerian Tea might have been the regimen that gave me 4 nights of pretty good sleep this week. Or the fact that I was finally tired from crappy sleep the 3 nights before  . Last night not so much but I'll still keep this combination and see what happens.

- Acceptance might be the key! Since a young adult I've always feared having the goal to sleep and have had insomnia during any major changes or anticipatory situation in my life. I've never came to that realization or said it out loud until recently but finally excepting this is who I am how my body functions will hopefully be the key to not getting so anxious or upset about how much sleep I get nor do not get.

 

 

 

 

[Athena]

I'm glad you have some things that help your sleep.

 

7 minutes ago, whatshappening said:

I wonder if being on such a low dose is creating paradoxical effects versus these being withdrawal symptoms

 

What do you mean by paradoxical effects?

[whatshappening]

5 minutes ago, Athena said:

I'm glad you have some things that help your sleep.

 

 

What do you mean by paradoxical effects?

My doctor is trying to tell me that all my withdrawal symptoms that I complain about may be caused by the medication itself. And that tampering with its mixture as I open the capsule and weigh beads during this tapering journey might be disrupting the way it's suppose to work. Hence, causing it do create the very side effects that it says may happen when taking it. Additionally, smaller doses make for worse symptoms causing you to always go back on the original dose or sometimes higher. 

 

I don't know But it may be an interesting conspiracy theory worth discussing. I'm wondering if Big Pharmas are in on this?

[Onmyway]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:11 AM, whatshappening said:

 

My doctor is trying to tell me that all my withdrawal symptoms that I complain about may be caused by the medication itself.

 

 

Yes, some side effects and some withdrawal symptoms can be identical - nausea, dizziness, numbness - that's because the drug is creating a disequilibrium in your nervous system. 

 

"And that tampering with its mixture as I open the capsule and weigh beads during this tapering journey might be disrupting the way it's suppose to work."

 

That is the point - you are trying to stop the drug from having an effect on your body. 

 

"Hence, causing it do create the very side effects that it says may happen when taking it."

 

I'm not clear here - does he mean that you are getting the side effects because you are not taking it properly, hence you are the problem? If so, he's full of s**t. 

 

"Additionally, smaller doses make for worse symptoms causing you to always go back on the original dose or sometimes higher. "

Smaller doses create withdrawal symptoms. Going back to the original dose does not clear your original problems, it solves the withdrawal issue. That is how you know it is withdrawal, that going on the original dose can sometimes (not always) fix the withdrawal problems. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by ChessieCat
put quoted text into quote box

[ChessieCat]

15 minutes ago, Onmyway said:

Going back to the original dose does not clear your original problems, it solves the withdrawal issue. That is how you know it is withdrawal, that going on the original dose can sometimes (not always) fix the withdrawal problems. 

 

Once you experience withdrawal symptoms you need to be cautious about updosing by too much because your nervous system may have become sensitised.  Please see Post #1 of this topic, much of which is relevant to updosing as well as reinstatement:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

[whatshappening]

2 hours ago, Onmyway said:

 I'm not clear here - does he mean that you are getting the side effects because you are not taking it properly, hence you are the problem? If so, he's full of s**t. 

Hi onmyway,

ummm in not those exact words but yah basically he said messing with the doses the way I am ( seperating and weighing)  might be creating my symptoms. And that what if, just what if some of the beads in my Effexor XR capsule are just fillers accounting for some. Therefore, not knowing which beads have the active ingredient is causing the side effects. I don’t know but anything is possible. He wants me not to prolong this slow taper because of that possibility. we have even discussed going to the immediate release tablets to have a better control of the active ingredient during tapering.

 

but basically I think I’m already in protracted withdrawal and have been for 1.5 years now or now that I’m at the lowest dose possible I’m maybe intolerance. 

[Onmyway]

1 hour ago, whatshappening said:

Hi onmyway,

ummm in not those exact words but yah basically he said messing with the doses the way I am ( seperating and weighing)  might be creating my symptoms. And that what if, just what if some of the beads in my Effexor XR capsule are just fillers accounting for some. Therefore, not knowing which beads have the active ingredient is causing the side effects. I don’t know but anything is possible. He wants me not to prolong this slow taper because of that possibility. we have even discussed going to the immediate release tablets to have a better control of the active ingredient during tapering.

 

but basically I think I’m already in protracted withdrawal and have been for 1.5 years now or now that I’m at the lowest dose possible I’m maybe intolerance. 

 

Hi Whatishappening, 

your symptoms are created from the withdrawal from the drug. The fact that there is variation in the doses can definitely make things worse but it is not the main cause of the issue. I am not familiar with the Effexor beads situation - I think there are threads on the various drugs on this website and you can learn from the wisdom of the people here. My poison is citalopram and I am lucky that it comes in a liquid so I can dilute. There are a few principles in tapering that I have learned on this website: 

 

1) Going up on your dose does not necessarily solve withdrawal (also see ChessieCat's answer above) 

       1a) if you are going up on your dose go very slowly, by small amounts. Sometimes 1 mg or less will improve your symptoms sufficiently. I reinstated at 2.5

           and it was sufficient.  I wish I had tried 1mg but this was before I knew of SA. 

 

2) Going up and then down and then up and down again can create something called kindling - i.e. make your nervous system more sensitized

3) You need to take your drug as consistently as possible - both in terms of timing and dosage 

 

The issue with drugs like Effexor is that they have a very short half life - i.e. they get eliminated very quickly from your body. In the case of Effexor it seems to be only 4 hrs. That means that you need to dose it very frequently and very consistently if you are not taking the XR version or it may cause inter-dose withdrawal symptoms. A friend on this would not be able to skip even a day without getting physically ill - flu symptoms, nausea. I presume (but am not an expert on this) that variations can precipitate a kindling reaction. So if you go away from the XR version, you will need to be very careful to take it multiple times a day -  2-3 a day and this may need to be even more frequent if you are on lower doses. Please have a look at the Effexor thread. In this journey, I would trust SA over a doctor every single day. 

 

 

I am so sorry that you are on this drug as it seems to be one of the hardest to get off of. A friend's mom (79 yrs old) was just prescribed this because she has night sweats which were presumed to be from anxiety. She ended up at A&E with panic attacks (did not have them before). GP did not inform the woman why she was prescribing this drug, of potential side effects or withdrawal symptoms. Poor woman thought this would help with the night sweats, did not know this was even a brain drug. It did nothing did nothing positive for her symptoms in 7 days, it actually made things worse. I suspect this woman has dysautonomia as many of her symptoms seem similar to ADWD without her having taken any ADs before venlafaxine but no one is considering that diagnosis and I only think of it as an analogy to ADWD. After my advice and another friend's horror stories coming off of this, she is off of the drug now. These drugs are another form of abuse inflicted often on women, esp. elderly women. I was/am so furious.