LouiseL: escitalopram and benzodiazepine withdrawal that keeps on going - help

[LouiseL]

Hi..

 

My story is, “briefly“, that I have within the past 3 years, been on... so. Much. Crap. And I am currently in withdrawal torture from hell and have been for years now. 

 

In the beginning of 2019, I had a very bad stress / anxiety reaction, and I was quickly put on medication.

Benzodiazepines for two months along with starting Zoloft. Quit Benzos cold turkey (doctor’s orders) and then Zoloft was upped to 125 mg (in hindsight I am pretty sure it was because I reacted strongly to Benzo quitting). I felt completely horrible on Zoloft and tapered off over the course of 2.5 months (doctor’s orders). Then I was in complete hell and couldn’t sleep so after being “clean” for one month, I was put on 7.5 mg. Mirtazapine.
 

I could FINALLY sleep and it did seem to help my anxiety a bit? I still had a lot of strange horrendous symptoms though but I don’t know if that was from Mirtazapine or SSRI withdrawal ...? Can a dosis of 7.5 mg. Mirtazapine cancel out severe SSRI withdrawal? 

 

Anyway - So in 2020 I was on Mirtazapine up and down weekly between 7.5 and smaller doses (doctor said I could just adjust from day to day). I ended up just completely wrecked and just lied in bed in a haze.. so they took me off Mirtazapine and started me on 60 mg. Duloxetine plus Promethazine for sleep. Total haze still, awful.. So off it again after 7 months - tapered from 60 mg. Duloxetine to 0 over 4 weeks. 

Then felt .... HORRIBLE (!!!) and started self medicating with Benzodiazepines while I waited for withdrawal to end for two months- until my doctor found out and said stop that. 
 

Then I was put on Pregabalin and Escitalopram 10 mg. from March 2021 until I wanted to quit (because I was a complete foggy hazy wreck on that as well). Stopped Pregabalin in May and Escitalopram in July (tapered from 10 mg. to 0 over 4 weeks). 

 

In September I tried to take a tiny dose of Escitalopram to ease the horrendous withdrawal symptoms .. but that didn’t work and I felt worse. So I just thought I’d push through this indescribable nightmare... in December however I took 1/2 pill of Benzodiazepine twice because it was so unbearable. 

 

So.. now it is 9 months since I stopped Escitalopram (/6 months since I tried a small dose for a week) and 4 months since Benzodiazepines.. I can’t describe how much of a hell it has been AND STILL IS 😔

 

I have constantly tried to tell myself that it WILL and MUST get better soon. And while some symptoms have gotten better, I have almost no life by now. 

 

I hardly see anyone because I just can’t due to symptoms, I hardly exercise or leave my apartment. Some days, like today, it is almost constant torture. A week ago I tried Melatonin (4.5 mg. over two days) and then I’ve tried some Valerian root pills.. somehow it’s gotten worse now.

 

So.......... bottom line: I’m thinking about starting Mirtazapine just to ease the withdrawal symptoms and to make sure I sleep better. Right now no matter how much I sleep, I am never rested and feel like I haven’t slept for days everyday. But I am BEYOND scared that it will make everything worse, and then I have yet another drug to get free from.

 

So yeah.. does anyone know if Mirtazapine can help SSRI withdrawal symptoms? I honestly don’t know what to do.

 

Thanks and sorry about the long message. I feel pretty desperate. 😔

 

Best

Louise

[getofflex]

Hello, and welcome to SA.  We are a volunteer-run community of people who have been or are getting off of psychiatric drugs.  I'm very sorry to hear about your drug situation.  It sound quite unfortunate.  Not to worry, there is a way out of this, but it will take lots of time and patience.  It sounds as though you have been dealing with a combination of adverse reaction to Zoloft, as well as withdrawal from going off psych drugs too suddenly, and the effect of this has probably been cumulative from going on and off various drugs.  You also mentioned varying the dose of mirtazapine, which we do not suggest.  This can destabilize the nervous system, and cause symptoms.  

 

1) What specific symptoms are you having besides insomnia?

 

2) Are you currently on any psychiatric medications?  

 

Can you please give us specific information in your signature about your drug history for all drugs you are on and have been on, especially for the past 18-24 months?  It would be especially helpful to have the details of your drugs in a concise vertical list (no symptoms), only drug names, specific dates (as best you can say for example early March if you don't recall the day) and dosages of each medication decrease or increase.  Use this format:

 

Drug name: date, dose, date, dose, date, dose…

Drug name: date, dose, date, dose, date, dose…

Etcetera

 

Please read the link below for instructions.  This will allow us to give you the best guidance.  

 

How to List Drug History in Signature

 

Here is some information about how these drugs actually work.   This explains why we get symptoms from going off of these medications, and why it's so important to taper slowly and carefully, and be very cautious about changing our doses: 

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

 

This helps you understand what withdrawal syndrome is: 

 

Video on Recovery from Psych Drugs

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

 

Here is a link with checklists of common WD symptoms: 

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen Withdrawal Symptom Checklists

 

 

Here are some techniques to cope with symptoms: 

 

Non Drug Ways to Cope with Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Stability is really important when we are tapering off psych meds.  Please read the link about stability:

 

Keep It Simple, Slow, and Stable

 

 

We don't suggest many supplements, but 2 that many of us find helpful are magnesium and omega-3 fish oil. Here are the links for info about those. It is suggested to add one at a time, and start with a low dose to see how it affects you. 

Magnesium

Omega 3 Fish Oil

 

On 4/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, LouiseL said:

I’m thinking about starting Mirtazapine just to ease the withdrawal symptoms and to make sure I sleep better. Right now no matter how much I sleep, I am never rested and feel like I haven’t slept for days everyday. But I am BEYOND scared that it will make everything worse, and then I have yet another drug to get free from.

You are right to be very scared that it will make everything worse.  I've seen many people in this forum go from bad to worse when they are on a drug carousel, and then jump on yet another psych drug.  You've been on quite a lot of different meds in the past several years, fast tapers, and drug switches, and your nervous system is destabilized from this, hence being very tired.  There is a good chance your nervous system has been kindled from all this, and it is hypersensitive, and going on another psych med puts you at risk of making your situation even worse.  Read this link about kindling: 

 

Kindling and Nervous System Hypersensitivity

 

You basically have 2 options: 

 

1) stay off all psych meds and mind altering substances and learn non drug ways of dealing with symptoms, and allow time to heal your nervous system.  This truly will work.  

 

2) do a very small reinstatement of one of your previous drugs.  We will need to see your drug signature before we can suggest which drug to reinstate and how much.  Here is information about reinstatement.  Going back on a small dose of your drug, which we call reinstatement, is best done very carefully.  This is temporary, and after stabilizing you would then taper gradually off of this.  There is some risk involved, and we need more specifics about your drug history before we can suggest a good dose at which to reinstate.  Here is some information about reinstatement.  

 

About Reinstating and Stabilizing to Reduce Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Please let us know what you decide to do.  When we see your drug signature, we can suggest a reinstatement, should you choose that route.  

 

[getofflex]

@MerryJayneFridaywould you be able to help with the pregabalin?  Thanks. 

[themartian1000]

I just wanted to say that I so feel for you. My nightmare began almost 2 years ago when I was put on a benzo for insomnia. It gave me horrific interdose withdrawal, but I didn't know what was going on for 3 months. Then I was taken off cold turkey. I got terror, fear, panic, neuropathy, akathisia. I was bed bound. After 10 months, I was put on pregabalin because I wasn't improving. I got up to the max dose, which ended up being too much so immediately started tapering after titrating up for 4 months. Now, it's been 5 months since I started tapering pregabalin at 8% a month. I am 18 months from the cold turkey. I suspect I'll have a 2-3 year taper.

 

I was too afraid to add anything to the mix. But I did have my hormones checked and was put on progesterone and thyroid, which help. I am trying niacinamide riboside to help heal my brain as well as all the other vitamins. 

 

I still have a lot of trauma to deal with in the aftermath, and I have still some anxiety. Hoping the brain heals. I never had any problems before all of this.

 

Hang in there. 

[LouiseL]

Hi @getofflex😊 Thank you so much for your response ❤️. I will answer more thoroughly later, but for now I just wanted to know how to make a signature ? I wrote out my (long and messy) medical history with those mind altering drugs like you asked (and I am exhausted now). Just wanted to post it and then I will reply about my symptoms when I have a more clear head. ☺️ And @themartian1000 I am so sorry and yeah horrified by your story. Hang in there too. ❤️ Will try to reply more when less blargh in my head. 
 

All the best

Louise

[getofflex]

The instructions are in my first post.  Click on the link that says "how to list drug signature".  click on your screen name in the upper right corner, click on account settings, then click on signature.  Type it in the box, and don't forget to click "save".  

[LouiseL]

Oh, I’m sorry ... thank you  I am really not too clear in my mind right now. I found it and I’ve made my signature but I found it quite difficult to keep under 12 lines. It says that my signature is too long.. can you see it? I just don’t know how to put all the information in and keep it under 12 lines, I have really tried to be concise hehe. 
ps: As someone who is absurdly anxious about making mistakes, I feel quite, well, anxious about not getting this signature thing right I must admit. 😞

[getofflex]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, LouiseL said:

So yeah.. does anyone know if Mirtazapine can help SSRI withdrawal symptoms?

We generally do not suggest people go on psych meds to ease withdrawal symptoms.  The exception is we sometimes suggest a very small reinstatement of a drug if the WD is severe, and not too much time has lapsed since they went off that drug.  We don't want to reinstate Lexapro, since you had a bad reaction to a tiny dose of it late last year.  The thing is, it has been a long time since you were on mirtazapine.  There is the benefit that it helps you sleep.  What you could try, is possibly reinstating a very tiny amount of mirtazapine, just to see how you react to it.  Since you have a long drug history, you are at risk of kindling, so we wouldn't want to start with a big dose of anything.  

 

Kindling and Nervous System Hypersensitivity

 

Reinstatement is risky, and the longer a period of time elapses between the time you stopped the drug, and the time you reinstate, the bigger the risk.  Reinstatement is best done very carefully.  This is temporary, and after stabilizing you would then taper gradually off of this.  Here is some information about reinstatement.  Perhaps you could try 0.25 mg of mirtazapine.  If you do OK on that, we could increase it slightly.  But give it at least a week, since it takes about that long to register with your system. If it makes you feel significantly worse, stop the reinstatement immediately. 

 

About Reinstating and Stabilizing to Reduce Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Please read through this, think about it, and let us know what you decide to do. 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by getofflex

[LouiseL]

Hi  Wow that really is a tiny amount. My doctor suggested a “baby” dose of 7.5 mg. (!). 
 

My boyfriend actually asked the pharmacist who sold us the Mirtazapine about cutting smaller doses - she said that you can’t cut the pill in tiny pieces because the medication isn’t evenly distributed in the pill? So one quarter of it might not have the same amount as another quarter? What are your experiences with this ? 
 

I just ordered some CBD oil actually. I have been quite hesitant because science isn’t totally caught up with side effects, medication interactions and so on. But I have read about people getting tremendous help from it during withdrawal so... I thought maybe I could give that a try before the Mirtazapine? What do you think about that (although I maybe already know the answer because it’s written somewhere that you only recommend Omega-3 and Magnesium as for supplements  ).

 

I’m so happy I’ve learned about kindling. It makes so much sense now why I’ve reacted badly to e.g. even just a tiny tiny dose of Benzodiazepines this time. And even this melatonin I took over a week ago has definitely (!) affected me 😕 But no doctor would ever believe this. 
 

(in fact as we speak, I’ve been send along in “the system” (the Danish Psychiatry) to be evaluated for delusional behavior ... because I have, and I quote from my medical journal, “consistent, rigid ideas that she has severe withdrawal symptoms from antidepressants even though we have never seen the symptoms she describes [as antidepressant withdrawal usually take 1-3 weeks and are mild]”. Yep. My boyfriend and I even tried to send him a scientifically published article that supports my “claims” but he wasn’t interested (?!).

 

Luckily I am now seeing a private therapist who has a PhD in antidepressants withdrawal symptoms and as one of the few in Denmark specializes in helping people get off antidepressants. He thinks it’s outrageous. Which. It. Is. 😔 Everything I describe is exactly the symptoms described within withdrawal descriptions. And I never had these issues before meds... so. Thank you for gaslighting me, mr. under-informed psychiatrist. 😔)

As for these symptoms (you asked earlier) I will try to list them here: 

- Very weak body and fatique, trouble concentrating, trouble sleeping, panic attacks / terror / anxiety (!!), tremor and jitter inside, crying spells, loss of apetite, impulsitivity to the point I feel almost hypomanic at times, don’t feel like myself, mood swings, agitation, aggression, feeling detatched or unreal, vivid dreams (!), flu like aches and pains, sweating, feeling so warm like I am burning but no fever, nausea, lightheaded when I stand up, tinnitus, headache, muscle cramps and stiffness, abnormal visual sensations, varying quite low / quite high pulse. And sometimes it is like my speech and bodily functions are being suppressed physically somehow (“slurred speech”?). I think that was “it”. I don’t have them all all the time and they vary in intensity. 

[getofflex]

5 hours ago, LouiseL said:

Hi  Wow that really is a tiny amount. My doctor suggested a “baby” dose of 7.5 mg. (!). 

Yes, it is, and we are suggesting this to lessen the risk of you kindling. 

 

This link will explain how to manage such a tiny dose of mirtazapine.  

 

Tips for Dosing and Tapering Mirtazapine

 

5 hours ago, LouiseL said:

My boyfriend actually asked the pharmacist who sold us the Mirtazapine about cutting smaller doses - she said that you can’t cut the pill in tiny pieces because the medication isn’t evenly distributed in the pill? So one quarter of it might not have the same amount as another quarter? What are your experiences with this ? 

If the tablet is made by a reputable drug company, the active ingredient is evenly distributed in the tablet, and you would be fine with cutting it into smaller pieces.   There is a myth out there about the drug not being evenly mixed in the tablet, but this is incorrect.  Here is a quote from our website, from another staff member brassmonkey:  

 

One of the biggest fears regarding tapering we encounter here at SA is that the active ingredients in a medication are not evenly distributed throughout the fillers. This leads to people thinking that if they are taking a small portion of a tablet or of the powder in a capsule that they will not be getting the “full dose” that they are expecting. This assumption is totally wrong.

 

Here is the link to the article containing this quote: 

 

Myths About Your Drugs

 

 

5 hours ago, LouiseL said:

I just ordered some CBD oil actually. I have been quite hesitant because science isn’t totally caught up with side effects, medication interactions and so on. But I have read about people getting tremendous help from it during withdrawal so... I thought maybe I could give that a try before the Mirtazapine? What do you think about that

I personally would not use CBD oil, or any other mind altering substance during withdrawal.  Please read 

 

Cannabis Marijuana Hashish TBC CBD, etc

 

5 hours ago, LouiseL said:

(in fact as we speak, I’ve been send along in “the system” (the Danish Psychiatry) to be evaluated for delusional behavior ... because I have, and I quote from my medical journal, “consistent, rigid ideas that she has severe withdrawal symptoms from antidepressants even though we have never seen the symptoms she describes [as antidepressant withdrawal usually take 1-3 weeks and are mild]”.

Wow.  Talk about arrogance!  I think they are the ones who are deluded.  They just pathologize whatever they disagree with.  Please don't go along with this.  I don't believe you are deluded.  I'm so glad I'm out of the psychiatric system, which I believe is abusive to it's patients.  Let me share with you a link that explains about how corrupt the psychiatric system is.  If you have the time, read a book by Robert Whitaker called "Anatomy of an Epidemic".  It details how the drug companies have not publicized the research that reflects poorly on their drugs, the drug trials only last for a few weeks, so they have no idea what these drugs do long term, and so much more.  Here is a video by the author: 

 

Robert Whitaker, author Anatomy of an Epidemic video

 

5 hours ago, LouiseL said:

Luckily I am now seeing a private therapist who has a PhD in antidepressants withdrawal symptoms and as one of the few in Denmark specializes in helping people get off antidepressants. He thinks it’s outrageous

I'm so glad to hear this.  Let me know his/her name, because we have a roster of such doctors. 

 

Your symptoms that you describe certainly sound like withdrawal symptoms from psych meds.  Let me know if you choose to reinstate or not. 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by getofflex

[LouiseL]

Oh man.. Okay I am very glad I read this before trying CBD oil then. I mean- Lexapro should be completely out of my system now since it is 6 months since I took the last pill (?!) so there should be no direct interaction. But if you guys think it is a bad idea, perhaps I shouldn’t. I had so hoped CBD could be that little safe thing though, that I could take ad hoc, when things were particularly horrible.
 

My therapist (the PhD guy) suggested CBD or melatonin. He said that they work on different .. I don’t know.. different systems than the psychopharmacology drugs? 
 

Oooh it is a jungle to find out what is the right thing to do. 😔 I reacted badly to melatonin though, so that’s out. 
 

I had thought about trying just one drop with 5% CBD just to try it before venturing into Mirtazapine. Because Mirtazapine is more of a commitment thing and - as far as I understand - CBD doesn’t have withdrawal effects. But. Then again, I’m starting to think that everything does 😑😑😑.
 

Okay.. I think maybe I will look into a tiny dose of Mirtazapine. 
 

Thank you for your help. 🙂 I will keep you updated. 

[getofflex]

25 minutes ago, LouiseL said:

I mean- Lexapro should be completely out of my system now since it is 6 months since I took the last pill (?!) so there should be no direct interaction.

The issue is not Lexapro and CBD oil interacting in your system.  The issue is that your nervous system is probably destabilized from all the drugs and drug changes you've had over the past several years, and any mood altering substance puts you at risk of further destabilizing your nervous system, and worsening your symptoms.  And it takes months to years to recover from a destabilized nervous system.  Pleases watch the following video carefully to understand this: 

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

[LouiseL]

Ah okay. 👍 Just a quick follow up question - why do you suggest specifically 0.25 mg. ?  Going to talk to my therapist tomorrow. 

[getofflex]

I suggest that because it is a tiny dose.  A larger dose puts you at risk for kindling, especially with your extensive drug history, which we want to avoid.  Did you read the link about kindling I gave you earlier? 

[LouiseL]

Hi. Update from here - I have my Mirtazapine “kit” sitting on my kitchen table with milliliter measurement can (for water - not sure What it is called in English) and a 10 milliliter syringe (am I using the correct term? Not a needle one  ).
 

I know exactly how to get 0.25 mg of Mirtazapine... and every night I am too scared to take it. Even though I’m really feeling awful from withdrawal as it is. Pretty sure my melatonin try three weeks ago have kindled my symptoms. 
 

So it’s like.. Mirtazapine might help ooor it might make it worse. I’m trying to tell myself that it is such a tiny dose.. and oh happy day if it actually would make my sleep and life function a little bit again but man if it makes it worse, not sure how I’d manage. 

I think maybe I’m looking for an exit - like.. I’d have to take 0.25 mg. Mirtazapine for at least a week to see if it helps right? Or what do you think, can I see after a few days? And if it doesn’t could I just stop again? Gaaah. This is a nightmare 😔

 

Current symptoms include: Bad sleep (I sleep 8+ ish hours, but wake up a few times and I always feel like I haven’t slept). I have shakiness / jitter inside. Like horrid butterflies in the stomach and arms and chest. Headache and sweating and sound sensitive and nausea and no appetite. Extremely agitated nervous system .. when my neighbor upstairs bumps and walks around in the night, it sends extreme stress throughout my body. This is where Mirtazapine might really help, so I sleep better.
 

Sorry long and slightly manic message. I’m so tired of this. Sigh. 

 

[LunaLex]

Louise, I had the same fear as you. What if I make everything worse? What if I am so kindled I fall apart? But also what if I feel better?

 

The mods are wonderful and gracious and can give you all the links to weigh it up but you will have to decide in the end. 

 

The link getofflex put about Reinstating is a very helpful thread to weigh the risks and benefits. 

 

But have faith that no matter what you choose, you will heal from this. You sound like maybe your symptoms are less hellish this week?

 

Sleep is VERY hard in withdrawal and makes everything more tiring, I definitely understand, I have been not sleeping at all most of a week. The people of this community have gathered lot of things you can try to help your sleep till you decide what you want to do. 

 Tips to help sleep Perhaps some earplugs would help?

 

I will hope for you to get some sleep tonight and feel a little better tomorrow. 

[LouiseL]

Hi. Aaw. Thank you so much for your post. It really helped. Also just because yeah, I feel insanely alone at the moment. On top of / underneath all the drug induced problems I have a whole lot of things (that they tried to medicate away three years ago) that are there to be untangled. If that makes sense. 
 

I feel like I can’t really see people at the moment... I think a mix of feeling not myself, feeling anxious I will get worse physically, or just feeling so bad that it seems nothing good will come of it. But I really feel the most lonely I have ever felt. 😕 Blah. 
 

But today has been a little better than yesterday. I even went for a walk! (A tiny one)  
 

I think I will go to bed now (it’s night time in Denmark :)). 

 

Thank you for your support and kind words
 

All the best,

Louise

[getofflex]

On 4/22/2022 at 4:11 AM, LouiseL said:

I’d have to take 0.25 mg. Mirtazapine for at least a week to see if it helps right? Or what do you think, can I see after a few days?

On average, it takes about 4 days for a reinstatement to get steady state in the bloodstream, and a few more days for it to register with your brain.  You may see results in about 4-7 days.  Each person is different.  

 

Like tentacle fin said, eventually, you will get better either way.  Let us know what you decide. 

 

[LouiseL]

Hi. I’m just gonna give a little update from my situation. 
 

I have tried and tried to push through all this crap and not reinstate/ start taking a tiny amount of Mirtazapine.
I had some days two weeks ago where there must’ve been a window. I was almost like “wow I’m SO glad I didn’t start Mirtazapine!”...

 

... Then things got worse again (wave). And today has been just one long day of torture. Didn’t sleep well tonight and have spent all day just ... torturously tired and in pain (like muscle pains and cramps in entire body) but without being able to sleep. And having hot flashes all day. 
 

So I thought ok that’s it I will try Mirtazapine. As I write this it is half an hour since I took the ridiculously small amount of 0.05 mg. 
 

I don’t know if I’m crazy.. but I already feel like something is up with my body.  I’m just going to describe what I experience whether it is placebo or the drug. 
 

I got a small stomach ache (like I did when I tried melatonin and with valerian root) 10 minutes after taking it. It’s gone now. I feel a bit more foggy and, like I did with melatonin, the surroundings feel slightly uncanny and it’s like.. I feel like I am going to have a nightmare when I sleep. 😕 Oh and I have been crying uncontrollably all of a sudden (!). Just before I took the pill, I was in an almost manic, overly excited “mood” (I never ever felt like that before medication) so it’s changed quickly. 
 

I’m just scared about any of my options. I’m scared to take it again tomorrow. Although maybe this will fade.. I’m scared of not taking it. Because I just can’t bear the withdrawal. 
 

Do you think I should continue and take the tiny Mirtazapine for about a week? I just wish I knew what to DO to lessen the amount of withdrawal torture. 
 

I wish my psychiatrist who have put me through this could experience what I/we are going through just for one DAY. 😩😔
 

Will try to sleep and remind myself it is not forever. 
 

All the best 

Louise 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Hi Louise, it is friday now, are you feeling better? I'm a fellow dane who is also fighting my way out mirtazapine. I have been on it for nearly 20 years, and because it made me sleep I didn't see how much it hurt me. If you wanna write about how much you hate mirtazapine in your mother tongue, feel free to pm me :-).

[LouiseL]

Hi fellow dane

I will just write an update here and then pm you 😊 🇩🇰
 

Again, doctors would tell me I am just crazy (in more professional terms) but since I took fricking 0.03 mg of Mirtazapine five days ago I’ve definitely had some changes in my symptoms. But it’s like some symptoms have been pushed down, and something else popping up. 
Also important- I actually decided to NOT keep taking 0.03 Mirtazapine after that one try on Monday .. I know maybe that is stupid but experiencing just a tiny sensation of the numbness and sleepiness and just .. weirdness that I recall from taking Mirtazapine, my whole body just was like “No no no no I do NOT want to do this again”...
 

But the past days, even with just that ONE time TINY DOSE, I fall asleep easier, I sleep more deeply and my dreams are vivid! Had horrible nightmares and night heatwaves (?) on Monday night. I thought I had a fever but I didn’t just insanely warm. This nightmare / feverish thing happens every time I try to take some tiny mind altering drug to cope - happened with Benzos, Phernagan and Melatonin too.

 

I have felt kind of more sleepy/groggy during the daytime since Monday too. My appetite has increased a bit and I feel a weird numbness both emotionally and physical sensation-..ally. But there is also so much restlessness still. It’s just a big mix of weirdness.

 

Overall since I stopped 10 months ago there HAVE been improvements but this is taking excruciatingly long and I’m trying to keep from being depressed over the time wasted on this horrible torture.

 

I WISH I could wake up tomorrow and all these withdrawal symptoms were just gone. And I deeply wish the doctors who “did” this to me and continuously deny the existence of withdrawal from antidepressants would just... sigh. Experience it themselves. 😔😠🤬

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Hey Louise, fantastic post. I'm slowly tapering mirtazapine after being on it for nearly 20 years. I think you are young still, so don't worry about time or life wasted, maybe this absurd experience is going to make your life better in the long run: taking nothing for granted, taking care of your self through life in a way you wouldn't without the experience. You have been on so low doses for such a short time so I'm pretty sure you going to be fine. Personally I'm just extremely happy that I found out that mirtazapine is poison. I am a man of science and - I love science - and the only thing I regret bitterly is that didn't see - when I began taking antidepressants - that our knowledge of our CNS and our biochemical makeup is not on level where we meaningfully can make biochemical interventions. Our CNS is way to complex, our knowledge of it still way too simplistic. Inhibit the reuptake of serotonin because serotonin is the neurotransmitter that modulates how joyful we feel? WTF? Idiot Søren (that's my name).

[LouiseL]

Thank you 😊🙏 I’m trying to tell myself the same thing (about this absurd experience maybe being helpful in the long run).
 

We are being adviced and treated by doctors and psychiatrists who SHOULD know about the possible severe side effects and withdrawal symptoms (I can’t figure out why they don’t?! This is SUCH a huge problem for SO many people?!). And there are loads of (as far as I’m concerned) scientific studies of treatment with antidepressants that support it as efficient treatment. So going into this how should we as patients know any better. My point is that blaming ourselves for taking the meds in the first place probably isn’t fair to ourselves 🙂 
 

There probably just isn’t enough research on antidep. withdrawal? Who do we shout at to make doctors and psychiatrists and mental health professionals in general understand the potential severity of antidepressant side effects / withdrawal? 😕 
 

I have even tried asking a psychiatrist who “treated” me if I could email him some Lancet publications on SSRI withdrawal because he kept insisting that withdrawal only lasts 2 weeks and is mild. No thanks and no debate. What the hell. 😠 He was probably close to retirement so maybe this would have shattered his worldview.... 🙄 Sorry I am just so mad about this whole thing. I manage most of the time to practice radical acceptance but right now I think I just needed to vent. 🤯😊🤦‍♀️

[Mirtazapine20mg]

You are exactly right about shattered world views Louise. Modern psychiatry is not going to admit anything, the individual costs for a way too high. Tobacco companies deny lung cancer risk, Instagram denies ruining teenagers self-esteem and used car salesmen find functioning car brakes highly overrated. And you are right about being angry. We need cool controlled productive anger: This is not ok. Period. An we need to fight it. But that must wait until we have unmedicated withdrawal free brains at our disposal. Until then I'm a huge fan sites like of SA, comforting each other and just being there. But that said: Damn, I'm angry three o'clock in the night, fully awake and trembling with withdrawal symptoms.

[LouiseL]

👍

 

I’m sometimes considering writing a book about this whole experience haha. 🙄 PS: I have never written a book before or anything. I just have this very very strong arrggh this is absolutely horrible, I can’t believe this is real, people have to be warned and know about this - that patients are being medicated into oblivion and then have such a terrible time trying to quit again. It sometimes seems like some really bad surreal horror film from the 50s. 😔
 

Does anyone actually know why research is so poor when it comes to withdrawal symptoms? I almost get all conspiracy-theory-paranoid thinking that the medical industry is somehow blocking research into long term effects and withdrawal from SSRI etc. but ... hopefully that IS paranoid. I don’t know what to think anymore about this whole deal. I just want my brain and body back 😑🤦‍♀️

[ChessieCat]

34 minutes ago, LouiseL said:

I almost get all conspiracy-theory-paranoid thinking that the medical industry is somehow blocking research into long term effects and withdrawal from SSRI etc. but ... hopefully that IS paranoid.

 

I have become very careful about what drugs I take now, non psychiatric drugs.  After what I have learned on SA and from other information I have found I make sure I do my research before deciding whether to take something.  There have been several occasions recently where the doctors wanted me to take something and after researching I decided against taking it.  One was a fluoroquinoline which had 3 FDA warnings; one was the risk of tendon rupture in older people, doctor said it was only 1% reported but my thoughts what about if I am in that 1% and also how many people ruptured a tendon and it was never attributed to the drug.

 

Gwen Olsen was a pharmaceutical company representative for 15 years.  I don't know if it was in one of the videos or in her book, which I have read, that she says she when to a meeting about a new drug (rep training session) and she commented on a possible side effect that was listed in the information and they said oh we will find a drug to help with that.  See these videos by her:

 

Interview:  Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher (51 minutes Gwen Olsen - ex pharmaceutical representative)
 

Video:  Ex-Big Pharma Rep:  We’re Trained To Misinform -The Drugs ARE Dangerous (6 minute video)
 

Video:  Ex-Big Pharma Rep:  Manipulating Doctors to Sell More Drugs (10 minute video)

 

And a bit of humour:  This cartoon is something another member told me about and I managed to find it:

 

 

46 minutes ago, LouiseL said:

I’m sometimes considering writing a book about this whole experience haha. 🙄 PS: I have never written a book before or anything.

 

Click on the links to go to the posts:  Another member has posted just a few days ago saying that they have written a book.  I told them about a free online publishing site called Lulu (no affiliation), as well as others that are available.

[Mirtazapine20mg]

In my darkest moments I have the same paranoid thoughts too L: They know these substances creates awful withdrawal and that is the perfect business plan: If the withdrawal is awful the consumers will keep buying the substances and the pharmaceutical industry will earn more money. I'm have the same thoughts about the doses: They don't as a default option make liquid formulations and therefor it is impossible to taper unless you get creative in the kitchen. If there was information and tapering kits available I would have stopped years ago. It should of course be like this: "Me: Doctor, I want to stop taking psychoactive drugs. Doctor: Excellent. I will write you a tapering prescription. You will get a package with a years supply of ever smaller doses from pharmacy. It will take year. Come back for visit every month, so I can check up on you. Good luck. By the way, how is your cat? Me: My cat is happy."

 

But 9 out of 10 whenever you suspect a conspiracy stupidity is sufficient and better explanation. The grounded and realistic explaination is that pharmaceutical executives actually believe they have beaten 3,5 billion years of evolution and via high tech laboratory work have made a substance that with a precision biochemical intervention can remove sadness and anxiety. Advanced statistical methods they don't understand used on a sample of 300 subjects clearly shows this. It is published in Journal of bla... bla.. Psychiatry-something, so it must be true. 

[ChessieCat]

20 minutes ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

It will take year.

 

It took me 6 years to taper off 100mg Pristiq.

 

21 minutes ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

They don't as a default option make liquid formulations and therefor it is impossible to taper unless you get creative in the kitchen.

 

Pristiq tablets only come in 25mg, 50mg and 100mg; here in Australia the authorities have not approved 25mg.  The patient drug leaflet says to not stop the drug suddenly.  It also says not to cut the tablets.  It was only because of the information here on SA that I found ways to get non standard doses.  I got them compounded.  Towards the end of my taper I did an experiment and found that I could use the contents of a compounded capsule to make a liquid.

 

The other option I had was to change to Effexor which is basically the same drug but what I have read is that the patent ran out so they developed Pristiq.  I decided to stay with Pristiq because I knew how it affected me.  There was no guarantee that changing to Effexor would not cause issues.

[Mirtazapine20mg]

 make drug 

8 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Pristiq tablets only come in 25mg, 50mg and 100mg; here in Australia the authorities have not approved 25mg.  The patient drug leaflet says to not stop the drug suddenly.  It also says not to cut the tablets. 

It is criminal. The patients are being hung out to dry. I found SA when I googled "tapering mirtazapine" or something to that effect. Thank God. My doctor is a nice man and he tried to find smaller doses and liquid, but they NOT available in Denmark. 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

BTW it have taken me 4 years of bad attempts to come mirtazapine, and I still have a long way to go.

[Ariel]

@LouiseL

Hello there. Following along in your thread. 

 

Writing a book about your experience is an excellent idea. Withdrawal memoirs are needed. 

Based on your posts I believe you can do it. You express yourself well. And that "very very strong arrggh" is not to be underestimated as a motivating force! 

 

Yet another reason to keep notes along the way. Once you are healed you will be able to look back at your journal and use that information for your book. 

 

It's actually incredible how easily one forgets symptoms after they've resolved. Sometimes when I read over other members' accounts I am reminded of some horrendous symptom I used to have, and then it amazes me that I had forgotten about it.

 

The point being: it does get better. Your brain and body are healing all the time, even when you don't consciously feel it.  

 

From your drug signature it looks like you are off all medications. Congratulations! 

Now it's only a matter of time -- practicing acceptance and patience and taking really good care of yourself. 

And whenever you feel that "very very strong arrggh" rising you can channel it into drafting your book! What a constructive, creative outlet. 

 

I'm rooting for you, Louise! We're in this together. 

A. 

 

P.S. 

Chessie Cat, that cartoon is perfect.

[LouiseL]

Hi all 😊 Aaw, such amazing, funny, informative and sweet posts that I haven’t seen until now. 😭🙂❤️ Thank you so so much. It means a lot to me. I would write some more and specifically comment on your posts but I’m argh having difficulties concentrating on writing right now (this is literally making me sweat (yum..) and like I’m physically getting exhausted). I will comment more on your posts later. 😊👍 
 

For now I just have a question actually for anyone who might be able to answer it? 

 

I’m experiencing a pattern that I keep hitting these “walls” where I can’t sleep / can sleep but wake up early / can sleep and do sleep 7-8-9 hours but STILL feel like I haven’t slept and just can’t function. 

 

Those days I end up lying in bed all day, trying to sleep and then I don’t, or I do fall asleep for ten minutes and my body wakes me up again 😠😔 Either way those are just some crappy, blurry, groggy, horribly inactive days. I call them torture days.. aand I would like to avoid them. 

 

I took the tiny dose of 0.03 mg. Mirtazapine one time two weeks ago and even that tiny dose has been helping me sleep - but also given me other side effects that I really hated. But it seems (yes after two weeks!) the effect is wearing off now. Today is a torture day. 😕

 

It seems whenever I try to take any tiny tiny dose of a “mind drug” it kindles / gives me side effects for weeks after. It’s insane. I feel insane but this is truly what I experience. 

 

So my question is... does it make any sense if I take say 0.03 mg. maybe every two weeks? My doctor told me to just take 7.5 mg. whenever so not much help there ... 

 

I’d like the sleepiness effect but I’d like to take as little and as least often as possible if that makes any sense. 
 

I’m again faced with: 1) Just keep going even though it feels like torture or 2) Try tiny dose of Mirtazapine and have it help me sleep but face side effects and possibly get hooked on it again. 
 

Thanks, and all the best to you all 😊👍🏆

 

 

[LouiseL]

Hi everyone 😊

 

Not really an update but just something silly I thought about this morning hehe. Do you know the classic 2000 Disney animation The Emperor’s New Groove ?

 

.... So... near the end, young emperor Kuszo (who has been turned into a llama by his evil advisor Yzma) gets hold of all these potions to try to get back to normal (human). Him and his companion Pacha have no idea what each potion will do so they just frantically try them out one by one. 

 

Each potion turns him into a different animal, until at last he finds one that... turns him into a llama again! And he’s happily exclaiming: “Yay I’m a llama again!!! 😃 ..... wait. 🤨”
 

........ This past year, since I tapered Escitalopram way too quickly due to MY evil advisor (...psychiatrist 🙄😋), I have been trying out tiny doses of all kinds of drugs to ease withdrawal or reinstate. Every time some symptoms might have alleviated a bit, while others got worse or I get side effects from the new drug. But then when the wave/kindling fades and I’m back to my well known withdrawal symptoms .... it kind of feels like my brain is going: Yaaay I’m a llama again! 😋 

 

... Anyway here’s the clip from the film 😁 Of course in the end (spoiler alert!), things work out and Kuszo is so much wiser from the experience ❤️
 

I can’t wait to turn back into a human again, too. 🙎‍♀️

 

 

[Ariel]

Hi @LouiseL

Thanks for the humor. I see what you mean. 

 

2 hours ago, LouiseL said:

I have been trying out tiny doses of all kinds of drugs to ease withdrawal or reinstate. Every time some symptoms might have alleviated a bit, while others got worse or I get side effects from the new drug. But then when the wave/kindling fades and I’m back to my well known withdrawal symptoms .... it kind of feels like my brain is going: Yaaay I’m a llama again!

 

I hope you stop messing around with these "tiny doses of all kinds of drugs". I can practically hear your brain and body screaming, Leave us alone!

I know you didn't ask for my 2 cents, just can't help but respond from a place of care and concern (and projection, based on my own atrocious experience with escitalopram WD). 

 

2 hours ago, LouiseL said:

I can’t wait to turn back into a human again, too.

 

You and me both. 

Any kind of animal, incl. a llama, sounds pretty good right about now, as long as their system's not in psych drug WD. 

 

Thanks for your post, LouiseL. Cheered me up a bit. 

 

[LouiseL]

Hi @Ariel - I’m glad it cheered you up a bit 😊 I didn’t know if it was just stupid and silly hehe. 
 

You’re totally right. My poor brain 🧠 ❤️. And I really really don’t want to take any more psychopharmaca (is that the word?). When I have it’s been out of desperation and hope that it might help me get through withdrawal. 

Okay now I can’t stop with the Disney references. Hope it’s not too dorky 😊 I just thought about this song and how it too can relate to what waiting to get better from psych drug withdrawal can feel like... ❤️
 

 

Especially these lines hehe, well at least for me:

 

I'll be cooking again (*have the energy to try more complicated recipes!)
Be good-looking again (*not be a tired looking drug zombie)

 

I'll hop down off the shelf

And toute suite be myself

I can't wait to be human again

 

I'll wear lipstick and rouge

I'll wear gowns! I'll have hair! (*energy to actually make an effort 🙄)

When I'm human again
Only human again
When the world once more making sense (!)
I'll unwind for a change - Can I help it if I'm t-t-tense?

 

I'll sit back sipping tea (*stomach too sensitive at the moment to drink tea 😑)

 

Sweep up the years

Of sadness and tears

And throw them away!

 

When we're human again

Cheeks a-bloomin' again
We're assumin' again
We'll resume our long lost joie de vie
We'll be playin' again
Holiday' again
And we're prayin' it's A-S-A-P
When we cast off this pall
We'll stand straight, we'll walk tall
When we're all that we were
Coming closer and closer
And closer and...
We'll be dancing again!
We'll be twirling again!
We'll be whirling around with such ease
When we're human again
Only human again
We'll go waltzing those old one-two-threes
We'll be floating again!
We'll be gliding again!
Stepping, striding as fine as you please
Like a real human does
I'll be all that I was
On that glorious morn
When we're fin'lly reborn
And we're all of us human again.

🙂 Hang in there, everyone ❤️

 

[LouiseL]

Hi.. After my “jolly” past couple of messages here is sadly one on the other side of the spectrum. I know it’s not going to help anything writing here right now but I don’t know, maybe I’ll just try. 
 

It’s 04:41 at night and I have been awake for an hour ish. I’m just sitting here crying and feeling despair and anxiety about how much longer I’ll be in this state. It’s no way to live.
 

I’m also just feeling such intense anger at the doctors who did this to me... And possibly plotting my Kill Bill style revenge on them (not really but .. no, I think I do wish the what four-five doctors who’ve been throwing pills at me would have the courtesy to try going through this for just a couple of weeks.. Maybe mostly due to just how arrogant and dismissive they’ve been)... I’m thinking about getting hired as an assistant one day to each of them and slowly drug their morning coffee with antidepressants and benzodiazepines and Pregabalin and then when they are good and hooked I will stop giving them their meds and watch them slowly go insane with withdrawal symptoms! Oh sweet revenge (<— Hope it’s clear that this is just me being cathartic, I am not actually planning to do this. Still...)

 

Anyway. I did that stupid attempt at reinstating Escitalopram about two and a half weeks ago. I took one drop of 5 mg mixed in 20 ml water. It was a desperate impromptu decision. But it’s just made things worse. And I am totally scared I just added half a year or more to my “sentence”. 
 

This past year, it seems every time I’ve tried to dull withdrawal with some tiny drug the kindling effects have lasted maybe 2.5 months. So maybe this will be the same.. 

 

I’m just having such problems sleeping. Or I wake up early and can’t sleep. 
 

Bleh. Maybe it has helped a bit to write this. I’ve just been crashing down into hopelessness and meaninglessness again since I took the tiny Escitalopram. Just have this deep deep fear right now, about how much more torture I’m going to have to go through. And every night I am scared of going to bed because what if I don’t sleep.. (I almost always do sleep and often 8-9 hours, interrupted though. But these past days I’m waking up and canNOT sleep again).

 

Okay. I’ll try to sleep.