dignan: A Mindbody Approach to Protracted Withdrawal Syndrome [Video]

[dignan]

Introduction topic

 

I promised myself that if I ever survived psychiatric drugs, I’d post a “success story” on the internet because I always found such stories encouraging to read, even if they felt like a distant dream—somewhere I could never really reach. And yet here I am—I’ve made it—and it’s “withdrawal” that now feels like the distant dream (or nightmare) from a past life.

 

I feel it’s time then for me to share my story, albeit as a video. I didn’t expect or want to make a video but my own path to “healing” is somewhat unconventional. It goes beyond tapering, which for me was insufficient on its own. So, to really share my story, I need to provide a fair amount of background information. And, for me, this centres on how I’ve come to reframe my experience with “protracted withdrawal” into something else altogether, called The Mindbody Syndrome or TMS (a concept by the late John Sarno, a rehabilitation physician).

 

It’s through my understanding of Sarno’s mindbody approach to chronic pain and other medically unexplainable phenomena that my years of withdrawal sensations (or TMS) finally ended. I’d note I’m not the first person to use a TMS approach for “protracted withdrawal.” Others have had success as well. I’ve communicated with some of them. It seems, therefore, that more people could benefit from knowing about this.

 

To be clear I’m not saying this approach is necessary for anyone nor am I proclaiming a definitive explanation of “protracted withdrawal syndrome.” What I’ve done is taken a demonstrably successful approach for chronic pain of unknown origin and adapted it for withdrawal sensations that seem to go on and on for no particular reason. Given the limited scientific understanding of “withdrawal syndrome”, however, my adaptation comes with significant simplifications, speculations, and leaps that many people will reasonably see as implausible and too reductionistic. I get it.

 

Despite this, I’ve posted this video because, well, this is my own understanding of how I resolved withdrawal sensations for myself—and, also, exact physiological details aren’t so important for a mindbody approach; it’s the broader psychological concepts that matter. And, who knows, maybe this will resonate with someone else. Regardless I hope everyone finds the best path for themselves. This is the one that worked for me.

 

Finally, I’d just say that the following video is sort of like a self-help video as well. So for any person interested in this approach, I make suggestions based on my own experiences and interpretations, but I'm not saying what anyone should actually do or think. There are also references throughout the video so there’s lots of info and authors listed for anyone who feels so inclined to look into this beyond one random guy on the internet. 

 

Note: If you find the video too confusing or shoddily made but you’re interested in this idea, I’d suggest The Mindbody Prescription by John Sarno or The Great Pain Deception by Steve Ozanich for a better explanation of the psychology of TMS; or, if you’re interested in a more “scientific perspective”, I’d suggest Psychophysiologic Disorders by Howard Schubiner et al. (Psychophysiologic disorder is basically just another name for The Mindbody Syndrome.) Each of these books goes into medically unexplainable phenomena beyond chronic pain.

 

 

 

 

[getofflex]

Hello, and congratulations for getting off psychiatric drugs, and overcoming protracted withdrawal!  I watched your video in its entirety, and found it to be very well done.  It was easy to understand, and I appreciate you speaking slowly and clearly throughout the video. In fact, not because your video was lacking, but because I'm excited about learning and applying these concepts for myself, I've ordered one of the books you recommended.  Your success story with help a lot of people on here who are struggling.  Thank you!  

Edited June 27, 2023 by getofflex

[dignan]

Hi, thank you for the kind words and I’m happy the video resonated with you. It’s nice to be able to contribute a success story here. I read every story I could. I wish you the best with the book!

[getofflex]

Thank, Dignan!  I'm really glad I came across your success story.  I'll report how the TMS stuff goes for me in my own intro thread. I'm a year off all psych meds, and doing much better, but still sleep issues, and other stuff off and on.  

[dignan]

Congrats on getting psych drug-free! Good to hear you’re feeling much better and I hope the mindbody approach resonates with you further and the lingering stuff melts away. I was so pleasantly surprised when it did.

[Altostrata]

@dignan what was your method of tapering? At what point did you experience withdrawal symptoms? What were those symptoms, how long did they last before you discovered Sarno’s mindbody approach? 

 

You said you had years of withdrawal sensations, but you stopped your drugs only in January 2021. Did you have withdrawal symptoms from the drug changes you made March-October 2019?

 

if you would, please describe how your withdrawal symptoms changed since you went off all your drugs in January 2021.

[dignan]

Hi, thanks for the questions.

 

what was your method of tapering?

 

I tapered slowly for six and half years. At first I was cutting one drug at a time by 10% and holding for 4-6 weeks. Then 5% the same way. Then, finally, moved toward micro-tapering smaller amounts—sometimes multiple drugs simultaneously—and making multiple cuts for 4 weeks and holding for two or more. I took a few breaks from tapering as well, maybe up to two months. 

 

You said you had years of withdrawal sensations, but you stopped your drugs only in January 2021 . . . At what point did you experience withdrawal symptoms?

 

To clarify, withdrawal sensations began for me when I first stopped psychiatric drugs in 2014, not when I stopped the drugs again in January 2021. The sensations were basically over by that time. To briefly expand, in 2014 I had acute withdrawal syndromes after I stopped taking several psychiatric drugs very quickly, namely “antidepressants” and lithium. Acute withdrawal lasted maybe a month, then I felt “off” for a while, and then scary sensations started and worsened for five months until they became intolerable. 

 

At that point I re-instated lithium and started mirtazapine and pregabalin as well. This seemed to reduce the intensity of the sensations, but they continued to varying degrees throughout most of the taper documented in my signature. There were some periods where sensations were mild or non-existent, but I was usually dealing with at least something on a daily basis. Sometimes it was particularly scary, other times it felt routine and just annoying.

 

What were those symptoms, how long did they last before you discovered Sarno’s mindbody approach?  

 

I experienced many withdrawal sensations and experiences, most of the common ones from skin problems to anxiety—way too many to list here—and some less common ones. I also had debilitating chronic pain at the same time that blended into withdrawal sensations in ways that were difficult to differentiate. 

 

These sensations lasted to varying degrees for about six years until I discovered Sarno in 2019. I then engaged in the mindbody approach to address chronic pain and both the pain and withdrawal sensations disappeared together. This mindbody process took up to six months to mostly complete.

 

if you would, please describe how your withdrawal symptoms changed since you went off all your drugs in January 2021.

 

No change. By that point, withdrawal sensations had concluded. That said, when I put too much pressure on myself or I have significant life stress, I can still briefly and mildly feel the return of “chronic pain" or the sensations that I used to associate with protracted withdrawal. But this is rare, short-lasting, and functions as a life compass for me that I need to reconnect with myself. It's not scary or bothersome.

[Altostrata]

I see you were taking 16.15mg mirtazapine in March 2018 with 90mg lithium and in October 2019, 4.45mg mirtazapine only.

 

In the 18 months in between, how did you reduce the mirtazapine and lithium? Did you get withdrawal symptoms while doing this?

[Nypeaches89]

I did read about chronic pain and about a neurologist who managed to heal his by visualizing his brain « healing », it worked within a few months. (In The Brain’s way of healing by Norman Doidge). I too made the parallel with PAWS, but I’m still partially skeptical idk. I still feel like my brain is legitimately damaged and needs to heal. I ignore the awful sensations but that doesn’t erase them at all. I don’t doomscroll too much on forums of course and I keep doing my projects and stuff but the thing is still there, and it’s so painful at times. I’m not sure I understand technically if you’re healed or if you just stopped focusing on your sensations? I admit I skipped thru the video so I maybe missed it!
anyway thank you for your video, for all the work you’ve put into it and for the nice Wes Anderson-y aesthetic ! 
 

Forgive the unorganized unclear comment , my brain is very, very foggy. 

[dignan]

Hi Altostrata,

 

By that point I’d been micro-tapering lithium and mirtazapine for years in the way I mentioned above, with very incremental cuts. During this period withdrawal sensations were the same as they usually were. There was no discernible difference when I stopped lithium or when I started focusing on tapering mirtazapine more. It was in early 2019 I discovered the mindbody approach and with that came a significant reduction in sensations within a few months, but it took about six months for them to almost completely vanish, following the same timeline as the pain.

[dignan]

Hi Nypeaches, 

 

Your comment seems clear to me. Sorry about the brain fog though (I experienced that as well). And, yeah, I understand skipping around the video. I wish I’d found a way to make it shorter. 

 

Just to clarify, I am healed from psychiatric drugs and I no longer feel withdrawal sensations. On rare occasions, when I’m under great pressure, I might feel a very weak twinge of old sensations. But this is so mild and fleeting that it’s nothing. I can’t even remember the last time that happened; that’s how rare it is.

 

And if I can just clarify one thing about the mindbody approach I’m talking about: it’s not about ignoring the sensations. Personally, this would have been too difficult for me, as they could be so strong. Instead, the idea is to change one’s relationship to the sensations and come to a different understanding of them. The sensations fade away due to this understanding and not due to ignoring them. 

 

I’m not a professional researcher or anything but I can give a brief example. One mindbody approach to chronic pain—and this has even entered mainstream research now—is that pain can be “learned” by the brain. Part of this learning process is fear-driven and comes from thinking we’re damaged or that something is wrong with us. This is because the processing of pain itself is intricately connected in the brain through emotions and the way we make meaning out of things. But, in this context, pain or any horrible sensation does not equate to damage. It’s just learning. The brain and body are actually healthy.

 

So when someone comes to this new understanding of pain (and more understandings as well), it’s actually likely that the pain processing stops and goes away. This is according to many people’s experiences and a clinical trial that recently came out with Alan Gordon, who also wrote a book about it (The Way Out). There’s also a Google Talks on YouTube called Breakthrough with Healing Chronic Pain by Howard Schubiner that gets into this. In my own experience, I think what both Gordon and Schubiner talk about may be applicable to protracted withdrawal. I know Schubiner thinks that too. Maybe Gordon as well.

 

Anyway, this is just to clarify my own experience. People, of course, have to come to their own conclusions about themselves. Thanks for the compliment on the video and the opportunity to expand a bit on one part of a mindbody approach that helped me. Sorry if I went on and wrote too much. 

[Altostrata]

15 hours ago, dignan said:

It was in early 2019 I discovered the mindbody approach and with that came a significant reduction in sensations within a few months, but it took about six months for them to almost completely vanish, following the same timeline as the pain.

 

I appreciate your recommendation of Sarno’s mindbody approach and agree it can be helpful for chronic pain.

 

However, it is more likely that you recovered from withdrawal-induced pain and other symptoms naturally over months, in a typical arc of recovery over many months. I am glad you are feeling so well now.

 

I do not think that Sarno’s mindbody approach will alleviate withdrawal symptoms itself, though it may aid coping with those symptoms. We already advocate meditation and other techniques for this.

[dignan]

Hi Altostrata,

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective. 

 

Naturally I stand by my own experience.

 

I’d just note as well that chronic pain began for me after a physical injury; it was not withdrawal-induced, as I document in the video. 

[Altostrata]

Thanks for the clarification. A lot of people will misinterpret the title of your video and think you're recommending Sarno’s mindbody approach for withdrawal.

[Iman]

I watched every single second of this amazing video and just couldn't relate more to the idea of TMS and how it prolongs the horrible sensations of the already healed WD in us. Actually the brain is doing its best to protect us from experiencing more painful and excruciating buried and repressed emotional burdens and thus it's definitely a defensive mechanism. It's not until you assure the unconscious mind that you're safe and ready to befriend and accept those repressed feelings that the brain lets go of its grip on the WD simulation in its attempt to help us. Repetition, Journaling and constantly reminding the unconscious brain of the fact that we're healthy, safe, passionate and ready to experience the sweet and pleasant side of the world through our perception are crucially important in experiencing this life-altering and beautiful shift. Thanks a million for your invaluable video and your soothing and lovely tone of voice. Wish you the best of all this world could give. ⚘️🌹🌷✌️

[Altostrata]

@Iman please also add comments to the TMS topic in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum.

[Iman]

@Altostrata

 

Hello there dear Alto. Thanks for the note and instruction. Will do asap. 🙏🙏🙏🌹🌹🌹

[RKroos]

Hello. May I ask at what dose you stopped taking mirtazapine? In what dose did you jump?

[dignan]

Hi Iman, 

 

That’s a great summary and such kind things to say! I, too, identify so much to TMS, The Mindbody Syndrome. It changed my entire life, not only saving me from protracted withdrawal, but I still use TMS ideas in my daily life when I feel any odd thing and I don’t know why. It’s made me so much less scared of myself. I wish you all the best as well!

[dignan]

Hi RKroos. Just saw your comment. I wish I could tell you what dose I stopped mirtazapine but I can’t remember. 

[PortugueseSea]

Hi Dignan,

Thank you so much for this wonderful post and video.  My own perspective is that protracted withdrawal is both a physical AND learned reaction. On top of that, it is impossible to know the proportion of each.
I would say that as time goes by the likelihood that symptoms become a learned reaction gets higher and higher.

So, in my view, a person who is maybe 6 months off is likely suffering from mostly neurological damage from the drugs, a person 6 years off is most likely dealing with the learned aftermath of the shaiteshow.

What are your thoughts on that @dignan?

Cheers!

[Altostrata]

16 hours ago, PortugueseSea said:

So, in my view, a person who is maybe 6 months off is likely suffering from mostly neurological damage from the drugs, a person 6 years off is most likely dealing with the learned aftermath of the shaiteshow.

 

I don't agree with either of these statements.

[PortugueseSea]

12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I don't agree with either of these statements.

Yeah, I have trouble wrapping my head around all of this so I wouldn't be very surprised if I was completely wrong here. I guess for me the term "neurological damage", albeit reversible, comes to mind because of Dr. Shipko's comparison with solvent exposure. I know, or at least believe, that, in SA, the most popular, or validated, theory is that the brain is literally rebuilding itself in phases and is at the same time very sensitive, which is what leads to shifting symptom patterns and neuro-emotions. 

 

I can also understand that, say, after 6 years a person who has been on psych meds forever can and definitely still might have the aforementioned process going on. I just can't help but to think that that far off a lot of stuff could be learned amygdala fear/discomfort.

 

Ultimately, I don't know, what I do know is that we must stay off psychotropics, eat clean, get sunlight, be as healthy as possible and, very likely, would benefit from limbic retraining.

 

 

[dignan]

Hi PortugueseSea,

 

Thanks for the compliment on the video.

 

I’d first say that, in my view, the acute withdrawal reaction is physiological in nature but I don’t think this reaction, despite its potential horror, is neurological damage.

 

The other thing I’d say regards what I think you’re wondering about; that is, at what point does a physiological withdrawal reaction shift toward a learned one? That’s a great question. Personally my first drug reaction I talked about it in the video was learned within months (I know this because I inadvertently resolved the reaction in a mindbody way months after it started). I also learned chronic pain within months (I know this because my physical injury quickly healed but the pain continued). My “protracted withdrawal” experience is harder to tell but I suspect it also had a fairly short learning curve due to my psychological stress at the time. So my experience suggests that this learning process can happen within months as opposed to years.

 

While that’s my own experience, I believe in people coming to their own understanding of their respective situations and finding what works best for them. Anyway, those are my thoughts on that PortugueseSea.

[gn11]

On 6/22/2023 at 12:12 PM, dignan said:

Introduction topic

 

I promised myself that if I ever survived psychiatric drugs, I’d post a “success story” on the internet because I always found such stories encouraging to read, even if they felt like a distant dream—somewhere I could never really reach. And yet here I am—I’ve made it—and it’s “withdrawal” that now feels like the distant dream (or nightmare) from a past life.

 

I feel it’s time then for me to share my story, albeit as a video. I didn’t expect or want to make a video but my own path to “healing” is somewhat unconventional. It goes beyond tapering, which for me was insufficient on its own. So, to really share my story, I need to provide a fair amount of background information. And, for me, this centres on how I’ve come to reframe my experience with “protracted withdrawal” into something else altogether, called The Mindbody Syndrome or TMS (a concept by the late John Sarno, a rehabilitation physician).

 

It’s through my understanding of Sarno’s mindbody approach to chronic pain and other medically unexplainable phenomena that my years of withdrawal sensations (or TMS) finally ended. I’d note I’m not the first person to use a TMS approach for “protracted withdrawal.” Others have had success as well. I’ve communicated with some of them. It seems, therefore, that more people could benefit from knowing about this.

 

To be clear I’m not saying this approach is necessary for anyone nor am I proclaiming a definitive explanation of “protracted withdrawal syndrome.” What I’ve done is taken a demonstrably successful approach for chronic pain of unknown origin and adapted it for withdrawal sensations that seem to go on and on for no particular reason. Given the limited scientific understanding of “withdrawal syndrome”, however, my adaptation comes with significant simplifications, speculations, and leaps that many people will reasonably see as implausible and too reductionistic. I get it.

 

Despite this, I’ve posted this video because, well, this is my own understanding of how I resolved withdrawal sensations for myself—and, also, exact physiological details aren’t so important for a mindbody approach; it’s the broader psychological concepts that matter. And, who knows, maybe this will resonate with someone else. Regardless I hope everyone finds the best path for themselves. This is the one that worked for me.

 

Finally, I’d just say that the following video is sort of like a self-help video as well. So for any person interested in this approach, I make suggestions based on my own experiences and interpretations, but I'm not saying what anyone should actually do or think. There are also references throughout the video so there’s lots of info and authors listed for anyone who feels so inclined to look into this beyond one random guy on the internet. 

 

Note: If you find the video too confusing or shoddily made but you’re interested in this idea, I’d suggest The Mindbody Prescription by John Sarno or The Great Pain Deception by Steve Ozanich for a better explanation of the psychology of TMS; or, if you’re interested in a more “scientific perspective”, I’d suggest Psychophysiologic Disorders by Howard Schubiner et al. (Psychophysiologic disorder is basically just another name for The Mindbody Syndrome.) Each of these books goes into medically unexplainable phenomena beyond chronic pain.

 

 

 

This was excellent an clear! I had heard of this approach recently when someone mentioned it regarding healing his pain. I developed severe wd symptoms while and after going off completely Citalopram. I am currently two years since I stopped and still have lingering sensations. In particular if the fear response is triggered. I have a visual disability due to Glaucoma and I believe wd makes it worse because of visual blurriness and light sensitivity etc. I have been doing EMDR in the last few weeks and believe that this is compatible with the approach you describe. When doing it for fear of sleep , the incident that I remember moves beyond anxiety into deep grief. I already knew about the layering of the emotions, in particular anxiety as a defensa against gruef etc. I am a psychologist so it has been a knowing of my profession life as well as my own personal journey. It feels that EMDRuincovers the emotion which then in turn desentitizes the sensation. This supports your theory that deep emotions underly the responses to pwas  Anyway just some of my thoughts. I will pursue this further. Thanks for the film and sharing of your experience 

 

[dignan]

Hi gn11,

 

Your personal experience with EMDR sounds really insightful and definitely seems compatible with the approach I describe in the video. In fact I’ve heard of a few TMS therapists who incorporate EMDR into their work. Thanks for sharing and best of luck in your pursuit!

[NeedHope2]

I am wondering how this concept applies to someone who is still actively tapering. I probably have several years of tapering ahead of me. It's challenging not to think negative thoughts in regards to that. Mirtazapine is proving to be a rough taper. I am at 19.8mg from 30mg. 

[Doctorsrcrap]

Am I the only one who finds this stressful?

Spent my time drugged being told there is something wrong with me and now I feel like it's my fault I'm in withdrawal because my brain is doing it to me. 

I feel like everything is my thought because of the way I think. 

I dunno. Maybe that's just me 

[NeedHope2]

No, it's not just you. I couldn't agree more!

[dignan]

Hi NeedHope2, 

 

Sorry for the rough taper. You ask a great question though. For myself, I actually applied this concept while I was actively tapering mirtazapine and having a difficult time with that. So when I started with this approach I still felt sensations of what I interpreted as “withdrawal.” I figured, at the time, the “withdrawal” sensations were from both tapering mirtazapine and perhaps other drugs I’d previously stopped taking as well.

 

But when my perspective shifted and I came to a deep mindbody understanding of the sensations, they stopped. Despite the fact I was still tapering mirtazapine. I then continued tapering and rarely felt withdrawal-like sensations again—and, when I did, they were mild and from conscious (or unconscious) stress. When that happened I’d just remind myself about the mindbody concepts and they would eventually disappear without any concern. 

 

As it turns out, then, tapering mirtazapine was not the cause of the sensations I interpreted as withdrawal. A mindbody phenomenon was going on instead. This actually makes sense to me now since I was tapering such small amounts of mirtazapine. Why would such small cuts cause such big problems? Of course, mirtazapine can cause physical dependency, so cutting a more significant amount can potentially cause some horrible, time-limited withdrawal. And being on the drug alone can cause some problems in and of itself. But I think small cuts or microcuts caused me problems due to my fear built up around the drug, my brain being easily scared, and therefore sending me a “danger signal” in the form of a "withdrawal sensation" to remind me to be scared of the drug. Many people don’t feel safe tapering these drugs. And that’s an important factor as it kept my attention on “withdrawal”, which only reinforced it. And from a mindbody perspective this prevented me from acknowledging my deeper emotions, the deeper fears instilled within me, that maintained my “nervous system sensitivity” associated with "protracted withdrawal." I’d emphasize that I don’t see myself or my brain to blame for this. Some lousy things happened to me in my life, and my brain responded by trying to protect me. I needed compassion for myself, not blame.

 

In my own experience then it’s very possible to resolve withdrawal-like sensations while tapering and then have a much better taper after that. Although it can be very inconvenient to taper and it’s a natural response to be annoyed and have negative thoughts about that. I certainly did. 

 

In the video, I ask: does it make sense to someone that they’re still in withdrawal long after stopping a drug? To adapt this to tapering I’d ask, does make it make sense to feel so terrible despite making such small cuts? Or is the main problem an adverse effect of being on the drug itself? If there’s any doubt about these things and there’s a curiosity to explore The Mindbody Syndrome, then the way to approach this is more or less the same for an actively tapering person. And it really starts with learning more knowledge about The Mindbody Syndrome or “psychophysiologic disorders” and seeing how it resonates with your life.

[dignan]

Hi Doctorsrcrap,

 

I think your perspective is very valid and probably shared by many people—including formerly myself. When I first heard about The Mindbody Syndrome, honestly, I found it very offensive. In large part because I was also told for years that something was wrong with me as well. The idea that somehow my own brain and emotions were involved in lingering “withdrawal” reminded me of psychiatric thinking. And my loathing for psychiatrists is really immeasurable, so much so that I didn’t really look into TMS for five years.

 

For me, though, when I eventually delved more into TMS materials, it was clear to me that this was not my fault (and I’m someone that can be really hard on myself). Instead what I was experiencing was an adaptive response by my brain trying to protect me, including from psychiatry. Compassion for myself was what I needed. Not blame. I needed to feel safe again. I tried to emphasize this in the video, but it’s possible I didn’t communicate that enough.  Ultimately, for myself, I now see TMS as what helped lead me to recognize my own humanity and health as opposed to psychiatry which aimed at blaming everything on an alleged “illness.”

 

But people will have different views on this. The idea that one is at fault or even that TMS is “all in one’s head” is a big obstacle to mindbody approaches. John Sarno thought that only a small percentage of people would actually accept these ideas. Some may accept them right away, some after a long time (like me), and most others not at all. And that’s okay. There are different paths to healing and people have to find what’s right for them.