Xcaretuk: Kindled and Petrified

[Xcaretuk]

Hi, 
Unfortunately i think I have kindled. A few months ago I got down to 10g very quickly from 20mg P I have been on it for 25 years) and my old Gp told me to miss every other day which I did for about a week but felt unwell and went back on. 7 weeks ago I ended up in hospital for another reason and decided to up to 20mg 3 weeks ago when I was in hospital again (all before I joined this group). I now have been crippled by extreme symptoms especially over night that include a few hours of dosing then woken up with tingling down my back arms, head pain, thumping heart and nausea and the I dose again and it wakes me up again. I don’t really sleep and first thing in the morning I have nausea and debilitating anxiety that turns me into crying mess only being helped by an anti anxiety drug in the morning (which frightens me) It hasn’t helped with the nighttime symptoms. I dread going to bed I feel I am being tortured and do not know where to turn. Do I keep with the 20mg to stabilise and hope things settle. My new GP wanted me to taper right off over two weeks and add another one as I do it but I said no. My poor husband is trying to help me but ends up in tears seeing how I am suffering. Please can someone tell me it will get better. Knoingwhat know now I tapered down to 10mg to quickly, missed doses and instated far to high.Thank you

Edited December 17, 2023 by Emonda
Name to title

[Emonda]

Welcome to S.A. @Xcaretuk

 

Sorry to hear things are rough at the moment. 

 

So we can try to assist, can you please add your drug signature: Drug signature instructions

 

Emonda

[Emonda]

 

Thanks for adding your drug signature.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 7:48 PM, Xcaretuk said:

Please can someone tell me it will get better.

 

With time, things will definitely get better. How you feel now is most certainly temporary.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 7:48 PM, Xcaretuk said:

Do I keep with the 20mg to stabilise and hope things settle

 

I'll ask the team to comment on your current dose moving forward from here. I believe they will suggest you reduce the dose, but I'll leave that to them to chime in with.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 7:48 PM, Xcaretuk said:

My new GP wanted me to taper right off over two weeks and add another one

 

There are risks in doing this, and it's not something I've really seen recommended here. 

 

It is generally best to try to stabilise on your current AD, then taper as per the recommended 10% maximum per month. Why taper by 10% of my dosage? Some of us go much slower than 10% per month...but this is something to consider months down the track once you are stable. 

 

You've made quite a few changes in dose over the past few months, so you should expect stability to take some time.

 

Unfortunately, your old GP gave you advice that is strongly discouraged here. Never skip doses to taper

 

The following links are worth reading. Perhaps hubby can read them, too:

 

Daily Checklist of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms (PDF) 

 

Windows and waves pattern of stabilization

 

Emotional Spirals

 

Non-drug coping strategies

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

There's some good info here, too: 

 

 

Some of us find these two supplements helpful, but you should start with small amounts and see how you react: Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker and Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) .

 

I hope this is of some initial help. I am sure one of the others will add to this over night.

 

To reiterate, how you are feeling right now is temporary, and you will get through this. Another member, LostinCanada, has been on the same AD as you, for a similar period of time. You may like to glance at her thread...but over time, she has certainly seen improvement...so I hope that reassures you that, yes, things will get better.

 

Emonda

[LostInCanada]

@Xcaretuk hi and welcome to SA. Glad you are here though not great circumstances. 

A few questions. How long have you been taking oxazepam, how often do you take it and what is the dosage? 

How did you feel on 10 mg of paxil? What made you increase to 20mg?

So on November 26 you went to 20 mg and then on December 2 did you do a direct jump to 7.5mg? What day did you go to 22.5mg and was that a direct jump?

I too am on paroxetine (paxil) and many symptoms you are having I can relate too as well. ♥️

[Xcaretuk]

Edmonda thank you from the bottom of my heart for your help and info. Thanks everyone else for your replies it makes me feel a little better. I am not sure how to reply individually. Lost In Canada I went up to 20 mg as I was feeling anxious in hospital. I felt ok on the 10mg before that but to be honest I think I cut it down far too quickly and then upped it too much so I have now totally messed up my nervous system. I take Paroxetine in the morning. Personally I believe I have kindled and have WDs. I have had these symptoms for 3 weeks but had a better night last night as the symptoms were not quite as intense. I only take the oxazepam half a tablet or a full one in the morning  for the severe anxiety symptoms. I was given these in hospital and they def help but of course it’s another drug I will need to get off. 

[LostInCanada]

@Xcaretuk do you take the oxazepam everyday and once a day? What is the dosage for one pill? It usually takes 2 weeks for the body to become dependent on a benzos is my understanding. Is that correct @LotusRising @Emonda? If you have been dosing inconsistently with the oxazepam, that can cause problems as well. You need to take a consistent dose if you have been taking it for more than 2 weeks daily. If you have not taken it for 14 days daily, I would suggest stopping before your body is dependent.

If you are kindling, your dosage for the paxil is too high. It has been 3 weeks since the updose to 20 mg or is it 22.5 mg? ( Please clarify, thanks)@Emondawould it make sense for her to lower the dose? 

 

[Emonda]

23 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

I am not sure how to reply individually.

If you put an @ sign before someone's name, that alerts them.... @LostInCanada thank you so much for jumping in! ( @Xcaretuk , both you and LostinCanada would now have been notified that there is a reply that involves them).

 

I'm with LostinCanada re the Benzo you are taking. You can become dependent on them very quickly. So if you can clarify how long you've consistently taken it, that would be helpful. Lotusrising knows a thing or two about Benzo's, so I'm sure she will drop by soon to comment. It might be an idea to give them a wide birth moving forward, depending on how long you've consistently taken them.

 

I'm still waiting to hear back from the team on lowering your dose. I agree with LostinCanada; lowering your dose is likely to be beneficial...but I am waiting for them to confirm an actual dose. Lowering the dose may ease kindling symptoms, but it may also lead to WD symptoms...it's a little tricky, and I don't want to say the wrong thing.

 

I am glad to hear you had a better night. Sometimes, just a little reassurance from others who have gone through the same thing can make all the difference. 

 

Hang tight, and I'm sure one of the other team members will comment further soon.

 

...keep us posted.

[Xcaretuk]

@LostInCanada I have been taking either 15mg or 7.5mg daily of Oxezepam since 3rd of December depending how I have been feeling as I have been desperate to feel relief. I haven’t taken any today yet though and am trying to hang out. Yes it’s been 3 weeks since uping Paroxetine to 20mg. Thank you for your help

[Xcaretuk]

@EmondaThank you so much. I haven’t taken the Oxzepam yet today. I am waiting to see how I go for the rest of the day and to see how I go overnight I anm hoping I have a bit better night like last night. Again than you so much for your help.

[LostInCanada]

11 minutes ago, Xcaretuk said:

I have been taking either 15mg or 7.5mg daily of Oxezepam since 3rd of December

It is always up to you but you are in a really good position not to take anymore and escape the consequences of dependency. Benzodiazepines are not something you want to be addicted to. 
These drugs can actually give us the issues we want them to remedy. I was getting more and more anxiety on Paxil which was telling me the drug was pooping out.

There is a free app called DARE which many find helpful on here. Also Claire Weekes book called Hope and Help for your Nerves is excellent. Some of her stuff is on YouTube as well. CBT is helpful as is deep breathing and EFT tapping. 
Also be kind to yourself, accept this change and don’t put demands on yourself. You are going to be okay. One step at a time.

[Emonda]

 

The thoughts from a few people behind the scenes are that perhaps reducing the AD to 15mg may relieve some of the symptoms of kindling. It is just a guesstimate, as everyone responds differently. If you weren't experiencing a kindling response, then when people are stable, reducing by 10% is the maximum, and that would be 18mg. Whatever you decide, you should keep notes of your symptoms.

 

It's generally not a good idea to reduce two medications you are dependent on at the same time because if you have intense WD symptoms, we don't know what drug is causing the problem. Are you already dependent on the benzo? I've read dependency can occur around 3-4 weeks, other say after two weeks, but everyone is different. Have you been taking the Benzo consistently for just over two weeks? If so, perhaps you're not dependent, but I can't say one way or the other. Hopefully @LotusRising will have some thoughts. 

 

When people are dependent on two meds at the same time, this link is worth a read: Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

The article suggests people start tapering the AD first.

 

I hope this is helpful. 

[LotusRising]

@Xcaretuk

 

As mentioned above, benzos can create physical dependence in as little as 2-4 weeks. I started taking a benzo daily after an adverse reaction to a reinstatement and it was the worst decision I ever made. If your nervous system is already destabilized, the benzo has the potential to make things worse. 

 

Please let us know how you do without taking it for the day. You may be able to get away with stopping it completely without a taper. However, if you feel you're getting WD symptoms, you may benefit from doing a fast taper off, assuming that your intent is to stop the oxazepam.

 

I just want to reiterate that benzos are extremely habit-forming in a very short period of time. The longer you're on it, the deeper the dependence can become. Please let us know how you're doing.

[LostInCanada]

@Xcaretuk if you decide to reduce the dosage daily notes on here would be helpful. Usually just each hour with a quick description like 8 am took 20 mg paxil - felt worse, increased dizziness etc

I f you reduce say to 18 mg and feel better then it would seem you have indeed kindled and the daily notes will help alot. Let us know what you decide. 

[Emonda]

As you've gathered, there is no perfect way to proceed with the AD. Perhaps if you try 18mg, sticking to the 10%, that may be a safer way of testing the water. You can let us know how you feel, and we can reassess. 

[Xcaretuk]

@Emonda@LostInCanada@LotusRising

Hi,

Thanks again for your advice, my husband has updated my signature in regards to my symptoms in 2023, it looks like I definitely started withdrawals (due to the speed that I reduced the dosage and also the last GP advice i.e. taking tablets every other day) and as well as perhaps kindling based on the timings listed with the onset of different symptoms. I have not taken Oxazepam for the last 2 days, however I feel dreadful, despondent, nauseas and have no appetite and feel absolutely desperate. Over-night symptoms of insomnia and waking up to shock like symptoms down my back and arms and pounding heart have been severe.

I will start the 18mg as paroxetine tomorrow as suggested and keep you updated,,

I thank you all for your support and guidance during this horrific time,

Xcaretuk

[Xcaretuk]

@Emonda@LostInCanada@LotusRising  also meant to add these symptoms are exactly the same severity as before I started Oxezepam and  have had only 8 tablets since 3rd of December so it’s not Oxezepam even though they take the edge of. X

[Emonda]

Do your symptoms feel any different over the past two days that you've avoided the benzo? Or just consistently "dreadful"?

 

If you've felt worse or noticed new symptoms, it would be good to post that here. Lotus / LostinCanada may be able to comment further with additional information.  

 

 

[Emonda]

Ah, we just posted at the same time, and you answered my question 🙂

 

That's good that you only took 8 tablets, and that you have no new symptoms. 

[LotusRising]

11 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

also meant to add these symptoms are exactly the same severity as before I started Oxezepam and  have had only 8 tablets since 3rd of December so it’s not Oxezepam even though they take the edge of. X

 

@Xcaretuk good to know there is no increase in symptoms from stopping the oxazepam. Please continue to be cautious with use  

[LostInCanada]

Check out some of the suggestions in this link to help with anxiety. 

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29760-tapertrauma-prozac-tapering-withdrawal-symptons/?do=findComment&comment=669850

[LostInCanada]

@Xcaretuk you and I have been on paxil for a long time. We have relied on it. Unfortunately we didn't realize all the consequences involved. Now we have to develop skills that can get us through the anxiety. Please recognize that this anxiety you are dealing with is from withdrawal. Your body is trying to find balance. Learning some techniques to help will aid the healing. I try to maintain a simple routine daily to minimize stress. Meals at the same time, sleep at the same time, reading before bed, ( not on a device), a bath, etc. 

Magnesium bisglycinate is good for the nervous system, full effects take about 6 weeks. Start with a low dose. No caffeine as that is a stimulant. No alcohol. Mild exercise like a leisurely 20 minute walk in nature daily is great. 

Thinking of things you can be grateful for each day is beneficial. Just one day at a time. Love the quote of a song that says "we shall overcome as we've done before". 👍💯♥️

[Xcaretuk]

@LotusRising@LostInCanada@Emonda Thank you again for your advice and info. I am just waiting for a scale to be delivered before I drop down to 18mg. We want to make sure we are doing everything by the book. I will journal my days.

[LostInCanada]

15 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

just waiting for a scale to be delivered

Excellent. A couple suggestions: always stick to the same manufacturer of the drug ( I have it on my file at the pharmacy), if possible find out the exact weight of the pill (fillers are added). I weighed a bunch of pills and took an average. For example weigh 10 pills and divide the collective weight by 10. Moving forward always use that as your base for calculations. So for me a 10 mg pill weight average is 118.4 mg so 5 mg is 59.2 mg, etc. Hope that makes sense. It will keep your dose consistent. 

[Xcaretuk]

7 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

Excellent. A couple suggestions: always stick to the same manufacturer of the drug ( I have it on my file at the pharmacy), if possible find out the exact weight of the pill (fillers are added). I weighed a bunch of pills and took an average. For example weigh 10 pills and divide the collective weight by 10. Moving forward always use that as your base for calculations. So for me a 10 mg pill weight average is 118.4 mg so 5 mg is 59.2 mg, etc. Hope that makes sense. It will keep your dose consistent. 

Thank you so much…

[Xcaretuk]

@LotusRising@LostInCanada@Emonda

Hi,

I have received my scales and my husband has cut up my tablets in anticipation of starting the 18mg tomorrow. I had a good night last night and the best day today so far . I am still anxious but it has been a 3/10 most of today and I have head pain but I actually went to the shops for a bit. I still have the weird tingling in my arms and back with a thumping heart, head pain and nausea of a night with difficulty sleeping. My husband is now frightened to drop to 18mg and wants me to see how I go tomorrow on the 20mg just in case I maybe stabilising. Your imput would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again…

[Emonda]

To clarify, 10/10 anxiety is dreadful, and 3/10 is manageable, right? If so, 3/10 sounds like a big improvement. It's ideal to be stable before tapering by 10%.

 

4 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

I still have the weird tingling in my arms and back with a thumping heart, head pain and nausea of a night with difficulty sleeping

 

These are all typical WD symptoms. They could just be a result of dropping from 20mg to 5mg from June'23 to Sept'23.

 

However, if you still feel like you are having a kindling response, there would be merit in trying 18mg.

 

Whatever you choose, consistency and accuracy are important. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

BTW: If you could add your drug history to the signature box so we can see it at a glance rather than clicking on the link, that would be ideal.

[LostInCanada]

Do your symptoms get worse after you take the drug, say within an hour or two? That would be a kindling response. Since you take paroxetine in the morning and you're worse at night, it sounds like typical withdrawal. Tingling, crying, heart pounding, nausea, etc are classic WD. 

Staying at 20 mg is prudent if you are stabilizing. It took me a solid 3 months to even feel functional when I reinstated. 

If you are not kindling, you will need to stay at this dose for at least 6 months before tapering. 👍

[Xcaretuk]

@LostInCanada@LotusRising@Emonda Thank you. After my reasonable day yesterday I had another really bad overnight. Another of my sleeping symptoms is when I open my eyes between sleeping and waking up I hear jumbled thoughts in my head it only happens just between sleeping and waking up not when I am awake. I also had a higher level of anxiety this morning and severe nausea all morning. I am not sure if I am kindling I don’t think I quite understand what’s going on, I am so confused… Are there any particular symptoms involved in Kindling or is it just the timing after taking the tablet. My symptoms def feel better towards the evening, overnight and mornings being the worse. I am so disappointed after  yesterday I thought there might have been a turning point. Sorry for being negative.. I just don’t know whether to go to18mg or stay where I am…

[LostInCanada]

Considering you did have a decent day and the timing of the symptoms, it sounds like withdrawal. I would stay at 20 mg for now. Stabilization is necessary before starting to taper. Also your central nervous system has to settle down from the oxazepam as well. You body is struggling to figure out what has happened with all the changes. Please be patient. This will not be a quick fix. For me, crying and nausea still play a huge part when I am in a wave. I've been dealing with sleep issues even before WD as many on here are. Acceptance and kindness will go a long way along with the suggested coping skills. Have you tried the Dare or Calm apps?

[Xcaretuk]

14 minutes ago, LostInCanada said:

Considering you did have a decent day and the timing of the symptoms, it sounds like withdrawal. I would stay at 20 mg for now. Stabilization is necessary before starting to taper. Also your central nervous system has to settle down from the oxazepam as well. You body is struggling to figure out what has happened with all the changes. Please be patient. This will not be a quick fix. For me, crying and nausea still play a huge part when I am in a wave. I've been dealing with sleep issues even before WD as many on here are. Acceptance and kindness will go a long way along with the suggested coping skills. Have you tried the Dare or Calm apps?

Thank you so much. Enjoy your Christmas x

[Xcaretuk]

@LostInCanada@LotusRising@Emonda

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to update you. I appear to be having more windows of feeling better though the day. I  have a long way to go and the overnight time symptoms are still terrifying. The last 5 weeks has really brought me to my knees and if it wasn’t for you guys and my family I don’t know where I would be. My GP tried to encourage me to keep taking the Benzos and gave me an anti psychotic for sleep if required. But I didn’t give in. It frightens me to think I was that close to admitting myself or worse and how that would have turned out. The medical profession especially GPs here in Australia have no idea how to taper someone like myself who has been on Paroxetine for over 25 years. My GP thinks I have panic disorder (I have never had an actual panic attack in my life) and the anxiety I felt initially when being put on them years ago doesn’t come close to the anxiety and horrific symptoms I have had during this withdrawal. I wanted to thank you again, and am keeping my fingers crossed that things continue to improve even though I feel traumatised my the whole experience. 🙏

[LostInCanada]

@Xcaretuk thanks for the update. Glad you are seeing improvement. It is great to keep a daily journal/ spreadsheet with symptoms and rate them 1 to 10. It helps in seeing progress and patterns.

I love Claire Weekes:

"Weekes has a simple mantra: face, accept, float, let time pass. Face means don't run away, accept means own it, float means don't fight it, and letting time pass, gives the body the time to get the message. While getting the body back in balance is simple, it is not necessarily easy."

[Xcaretuk]

Yes I downloaded a couple of her audio books as per your recommendations. I think it’s only now I can start to really focus on the self help resources. I listen to relaxation music in bed. Yes my husband (he’s an engineer) set up a spread sheet and we are numbering overnight and wake up symptom's  out of 10 and I keep a diary for the day time symptoms. Thank you

[Emonda]

3 minutes ago, Xcaretuk said:

My GP tried to encourage me to keep taking the Benzos and gave me an anti psychotic for sleep if required. But I didn’t give in.

 

I'm glad to read you stayed strong....well done.

 

4 minutes ago, Xcaretuk said:

I appear to be having more windows of feeling better though the day.

 

Great news.

 

5 minutes ago, Xcaretuk said:

The medical profession especially GPs here in Australia have no idea how to taper someone

 

That's certainly my experience, too.

 

Just now, Xcaretuk said:

I listen to relaxation music in bed.

 

Me too, although I think my wife would prefer her hubby use noise-cancelling headphones so as not to disturb her 😬

 

You're going to be just fine. Follow the advice and experience of others here, and you will succeed 👍

[Xcaretuk]

8 minutes ago, Emonda said:

 

I'm glad to read you stayed strong....well done.

 

 

Great news.

 

 

That's certainly my experience, too.

 

 

Me too, although I think my wife would prefer her hubby use noise-cancelling headphones so as not to disturb her 😬

 

You're going to be just fine. Follow the advice and experience of others here, and you will succeed 👍

You made me smile (it’s been a long time)… Thank you so much 😊 

[LotusRising]

15 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

I appear to be having more windows of feeling better though the day.

 

This is so good to hear  It should continue to get better and better.

 

15 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

My GP tried to encourage me to keep taking the Benzos and gave me an anti psychotic for sleep if required.

 

Ugh, I feel like they are truly trying to help sometimes, but this just isn't the way. I wonder if you were also informed of the risks of these medications?

 

15 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

even though I feel traumatised my the whole experience.

 

It does indeed feel very traumatizing, but this starts fading as time goes by. It still hits me out of the blue sometimes, but it's a good reminder of how far I've come and just how grateful I am for all the little things.

 

14 hours ago, Xcaretuk said:

I listen to relaxation music in bed.

 

I did this too. And yoga nidra was a great standby for many months - I think my husband would definitely relate to Emonda's comment 😂