DJones: Celexa kindling reaction

[Altostrata]

What times of day do you take Klonopin? Is there any daily pattern to your symptoms?

[Djones1984]

Take the klonopin at 7am and 6pm and I would say that my symptoms are worse in the afternoon.

[Djones1984]

Any thought on the updose should I drop back down. I really don't know what to do and am just freaking out.

[Petunia]

I Updosed 2 days ago to 1.5mg would this be too much you think? I dident know what to do but that is where I am at the only thing that changed is a headache and weird feeling in brain. Should I go back to 1.21mg which would be 10% of the 1.10?

 

When did the headache and weird feeling in your brain start? Was this after you updosed to 1.10 or 1.50? Do you have these symptoms all the time or do they come and go? Are they getting worse, staying the same or getting better?

 

When you're describing what's happening, it would be better if you could be as specific as possible, the more information we have, the easier it is to try and figure out what to suggest.

 

I don't think you should make another change right now, unless the headache and weird feeling in your brain is new, severe and getting worse. If it is, I would consider that an adverse reaction and to drop back down to 1.10, but if its mild and improves over the next 2 days then I suggest holding where you are.

 

Please add this updose to your signature and if you haven't been doing it already, start keeping daily notes of your symptoms, rating their severity each day. Over time you will be able to see a pattern and know if the updose has helped. Our memory is not reliable when it comes to something subjective like how we feel, and its even worse when we are in withdrawal.

 

Hang in there, its going to be ok, let us know how you are and post here before making any more changes.

[Djones1984]

Petunia, it is just a mild headache after I went up to 1.5mg I would say maybe I am a little worse since the updose but it's hard to say the dizziness has got better since the updose.

 

I had a huge panic attack last night very bad. I am currently in a very bad state. I am trying to work through it but it's very tough and the smell of paints and chemicals are very bad. I am afraid to be at home and I am afraid to leave. I am afraid to live and afraid to die.

 

I still get windows where I feel almost normal for an hour or 2 here and there though.

[Petunia]

Its good that you are getting some windows, hopefully they will increase. I would say hold where you are at 1.5 and don't make any more changes. It would be good if you could avoid the paints and chemicals, but I guess they are part of your job?

 

When I was in acute withdrawal, I was trying to renovate a house, at first it wasn't too bad, but the chemicals started to make me feel worse. I was only doing some things myself, and using contractors for others, but in the end I had to get a project manager and let other people do all the work, I was just getting sicker. Then moving into a newly renovated house with all the fresh chemicals probably didn't help much either.

 

I know what its like to be afraid all the time, that chemical anxiety gets triggered by everything and nothing. Once you get stable again it will start to settle down. You will need to take care of yourself the best you can, learn some relaxation techniques, there are plenty of ideas in the our self care section.

 

Let us know how you are in a day or two.

[Djones1984]

Petunia, yes the chemicals are part of my job. I am a remodeling contractor and work for myself it has been very tough thourgh withdrawl.

 

I think I have been a since the updose. I was doing some reading about tartive akathesia and dysthymia and think what is the point of living if there is a chance I will never recover from this? How do I go on waiting when there is a chance it won't ever go away?

[Djones1984]

I meant to say I have been a little better since the updose.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Petunia, yes the chemicals are part of my job. I am a remodeling contractor and work for myself it has been very tough thourgh withdrawl.

 

I think I have been a since the updose. I was doing some reading about tartive akathesia and dysthymia and think what is the point of living if there is a chance I will never recover from this? How do I go on waiting when there is a chance it won't ever go away?

 

I've done reading along those lines, too, Robert Whitaker, and it is distressing to say the least.  BUT, in all of those studies, and the meta-analyses that show that we develop treatment resistant depression that is chronic, you can be SURE that there were no slow tapers involved in coming off the meds!  And the relapses, I think, were largely withdrawal-based.

 

I think studies need to be done on how doing very slow tapers works in all of this.  Rather than give up, I feel ANGRY that we were guinea pigs, and I feel all the more resolute in my dream to come off these poisons!  I also feel much more accepting of the fact that this will need to be done ever so slowly, so that my nervous system will hopefully receive the subtle signal that it needs to start working for itself, producing more serotonin and adding receptors, for instance.  

 

There are people out there who have recovered greatly, and are NOT having relapses of depression, having done slow tapers.  There is still hope!  We must hang in there and add to the data that shows that slow tapers are the way out of this mess!  I refuse to let the drugs win!

 

I meant to say I have been a little better since the updose.

 

That is fantastic!!   Think positive thoughts that you will stabilize! I know, it's hard, but you and I ARE going to win!  All of us here are going to pamper our poor nervous systems into operating without the drugs.  We CAN do this!

 

SG

[Djones1984]

I know but I have had almost constint akathesia type anxiety for the past 3 years since I tapered to fast and crashed.

 

I guess I just have to keep the faith that we all recover.

[SquirrellyGirl]

It truly sucks that this has been going on so long for you.  I'm sorry you are suffering so much with this.  I've been doing some reading up on withdrawal syndrome in the Symptoms and Self-Care section and this may pertain to you:

 

From Alto, http://survivinganti...yndrome/?p=4010

 

"Antidepressants cause downregulation of serotonin receptors. In a mechanism of brain self-defense, the receptors actually disappear, becoming more sparse so as to take in less serotonin. It is thought among withdrawal researchers that people who experience the worst withdrawal are slower than others to repopulate serotonin receptors.

Others believe those who suffer the worst are those whose brains are highly neuroplastic and adapted more thoroughly to the influence of the medication.

Relative slowness to upregulate receptors doesn't mean there's anything intrinsically wrong with our brains, it just means there's variability (of course) among nervous systems.

Even among people suffering the most severe antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, repopulation of serotonin receptors probably occurs long before symptoms disappear. However, while the serotonin system is repairing itself, an imbalance occurs in the autonomic nervous system. The locus coeruleus "fight or flight" center becomes disinhibited and the glutamatergic system becomes more active than normal. This is called disinhibition of the alerting system, and it generates symptoms that are awful: panic, anxiety, sleeplessness, and dreadful imagery among them.

This paper explains the mechanism in withdrawal causing alerting disinhibition: Harvey, et al: Neurobiology of antidepressant withdrawal: implications for the longitudinal outcome of depression; Biological Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 15;54(10):1105-17.

Once disinhibition of the alerting system takes hold, it becomes self-perpetuating. The whole question of neurotransmitter imbalance -- a chimera of psychiatry anyway -- becomes moot. No manipulation of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine is going to help. In fact, it usually makes the condition worse.

Noradrenergics -- buproprion or Wellbutrin; mirtazapine or Remeron; SNRIs such as Cymbalta, Serzone, Effexor; and St. John's Wort, rhodiola -- stimulate "fight or flight" activation, as will most SSRIs. Drugs and substances that are stimulating should be avoided.

Even drugs that are calming may cause a paradoxical reaction as the alerting system fights to stay in control.

My guess is: The first phase of withdrawal, the acute phase, is the initial shock of withdrawal, with the most defined symptoms, such as brain zaps and nausea and possibly waves of unusually intense "depression" and "anxiety" -- actually, emotions generated by the neurological upset. Later, glutamatergic hyper-reactivity and autonomic instability take over. Often the autonomic instability causes wide hypersensitivity to drugs, supplements, and even foods.

Out of control, unrelated to environmental or psychological triggers, the alerting system sends intense, spontaneous signals to the adrenals, which produce the stress hormones cortisol and adrenaline.

This is not strictly brain damage. Brain damage means some physical part has been permanently removed and can never be recovered. Rather, this is iatrogenic neuropsychiatric damage.

According to established principles of neuroplasticity, the nervous system can repair itself and regain functioning that is close to normal. In cases where there is no apparent iatrogenic cause for autonomic dysfunction, it often spontaneously resolves. Low stress, good nutrition, and as much sleep and gentle exercise as possible are key.

In the medical literature on antidepressant withdrawal, symptoms of alerting system disinhibition -- anxiety, panic, sleeplessness, irritability, agitation among them -- are sometimes misidentified as "unmasking" or emergence of bipolar disorder. This leads the clinician to medicate with a cocktail of drugs upon which the patient does poorly, the neuropsychiatric damage from antidepressant withdrawal being compounded by additional medication and attendant reactions."

 

Have you spent any time in that sub-forum gathering tips for handling the alerting system disinhibition?  I think there's a lot of good stuff buried there if you just look around.

 

SG

[Djones1984]

Thank you very much that was all good stuff. Another horrible day today, the anxiety is so bad it feels like I am getting jolted through my whole body. 3 years of recovery and I feel worse now than the day I started down this journey.

 

The suicidal ideation is very intense today. Feel like I am going to completely loose it. Nothing works to relax I feel like my brain is crumbling.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Have you been able to do gentle exercise, DJones?  I remember how awful it felt to be where you are at now, but I didn't realize I was in protracted withdrawal from Effexor at the time, just thought I was going mad!  So, I hadn't learned about self-care.  It is really quite a trip how chemical upset can cause the brain to think those thoughts.  I really wish there were therapists out there for just this situation of the aftermath of these drugs.  Have you tried meditating?  I came across Calm.com for guided meditations that are pretty simple, and you can choose a background sound, scene, and how long you want it to go for.  I like listening to the water running and birds chirping :-)

 

I went to see the movie Into the Woods when I was in a similar state. A friend invited me out for a matinee, knowing that i had been having trouble with depression (actually, protracted withdrawal). It was about the worst movie to see in that state of mind!  I don't know how or why I made it to the end!   Should have seen a comedy 

 

SG

[Petunia]

I meant to say I have been a little better since the updose.

 

I'm happy to hear this Djones. Give the updose to 1.5 a bit more time, feeling a little better in general is a good sign. One bad day doesn't mean anything, stabilization will happen in a windows/waves kind of pattern. Some better days followed by a temporary set back, then feeling better again.

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

Please would you add this update to your signature, it helps us keep track of your situation when reading your posts.

 

 I was doing some reading about tartive akathesia and dysthymia and think what is the point of living if there is a chance I will never recover from this? How do I go on waiting when there is a chance it won't ever go away?

 

Don't do this. Instead read recovery stories and articles filled with messages of hope and healing. Most people get better, some say that everyone recovers. I'm not sure that everyone recovers completely, but I do know that unless there are other illnesses involved, everyone improves over time and most people get back to a state of health close to what they were before taking drugs.

 

So please choose your reading material carefully because its going to impact your beliefs and the way you feel.

 

 

According to established principles of neuroplasticity, the nervous system can repair itself and regain functioning that is close to normal.

[Christian]

Don't read this crap. That includes the bad stories too. Everyone will heal. Everyone. I can't stand when I read somewhere that someone says you might not. There is no data to validate they won't heal. Trust me. I've been in touch with a few folks that used to be on this site that guess what ? They have recovered or at least improved a great deal. I'm not sure how old you are. I'm 49. If I can scratch and claw through the next 1-2 years of bad symptoms. Maybe I can get out of this dealing with the lesser symptoms for the following years. Please be strong.

[Christian]

This is a 1-5 year horrific stretch in our lives. if we all live to 70, then why can't we survive 5 years tops. Right ? What makes this harder is not the suffering. it's how I'm going to keep my job, car and house.

[Djones1984]

Thanks guys! Chiistian I am 31 years old and it all started at 28. I like your perspectives.

 

I too fear loosing my job, house and car but I managed to work through it. But now I am fearing these things again but I am doing so poorly That I can barly leave the house some days.

 

I am doing a little better since the updose to 1.5mg Celexa it still feels like I am on edge 24/7 and I have pins and needles and elextrical feelings all over my body and every little sound makes my skin crawl. I feel kinda like I did at the beginning like crawling out of my skin. I sure hope it gets better soon and goes back to my normal state of hell.

[Djones1984]

I keep thinking about what it would be like if I just stayed off after my near cold turkey 3 years ago off the celexa. Would I be better now. Instead of going to the hospital and going on multiple differnt meds that just made everything worse and had an adverse reaction too. Now I am 3 years out and still have the klonopin to deal with after this.

 

I guess I just need to keep the faith but it's hard when I feel like this. I just want to get back to my suffering that's manageable because this is not.

[Djones1984]

I had almost an entire day yesterday where I felt somewhat normal and almost In a dreamy state while driving home. Now today I am back to this akathesia type anxiety and feels like electricity running through my body.

 

It is so frustrating and I really don't know what's cousing what. I imagine that the klonopin could be causing some of this akathesia type stuff or maybe not. Just really frustrating to be in a window and now back in a wave.

[Djones1984]

I am really in need of some help. It just seems to me that this Celexa is not doing me any good. I had an adverse reaction and should have just stayed off 3 years ago and I would have probably been better by now.

 

I will never be able to rocover while still on a small dose and I certinly will never recover on the klonopin. So what's the point anymore 3 years of hell with no end in sight.

 

I can't take this anymore I should just quit it all and give up. I have been strong for too long now.

[Djones1984]

I am being really negative but after 3 years it's beginning to be too much. I thought I would be getting better not worse.

[Petunia]

Of course 3 years is too much, one day of this is too much. No one should have to go through this kind of suffering, but here we all are doing the best we can to hang on and claw our way out of something none of us deserved.

I will never be able to rocover while still on a small dose and I certinly will never recover on the klonopin.

 

You are recovering from celexa right now, having come down from a higher dose to a lower one, every day your nervous system is adjusting and getting closer to recovery. When you start tapering Klonopin, you will be recovering from that, right now, keeping it stable is allowing your NS to continue its recovery from celexa.

 

 

I had almost an entire day yesterday where I felt somewhat normal and almost In a dreamy state while driving home....

 

This is good, you are beginning to stabilize. Stabilization after an updose or reinstatement can happen in a windows and waves pattern and this is what seems to be happening for you. Once you are stable again, recovery will continue.

[Djones1984]

Thanks petunia! You have a way with words and I find it very comforting and I am sure you have had the same effect with many on this forum.

 

It is very hard to see but based on what u feeling it seems that I am slowly stabilizing again. I just can't help but wonder though weather I should have went up to maybe 2mg instead of 1.5mg.

 

I guess I should just hold and wait it out. It is just very hard to see recovery when your in the grips of withdrawl.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi DJones, 

 

I was doing a search about floaters since Depressedtothecore was concerned about his, and I found your post in the floater thread.  Do you still have the floaters?

 

SG

[Djones1984]

Yes I still have multiple floaters in my eye which really is not fun. I also have eye pain and blurred sort of vision when my symptoms are bad. Do you have alot of floaters?

[SquirrellyGirl]

I don't have any, thankfully, though I have had the dry eye issue in my right eye in the past, and have been having a flare-up recently.  I was hoping you'd say it had resolved, as I was searching on behalf of Depressedtothecore who is very concerned about his and looking for positive outcomes :-)  How long has it been?  I think the post I saw of yours was from quite some time ago, so has it been constant or have you had breaks from it?

 

SG

[Djones1984]

Consistant for around 3 years. It's like a feather in the wind compared to my other symptoms. Many people have floaters but when you have a hyperactive nervous system situation you notice them a lot more. When your cns calms down there not as apparent anymore.

[Djones1984]

I have had another bad day today. Very bad

Dp/Dr

Anxiety

Jaw tension

Body tension

Tightness in head

Racing thoughts

Pain

Eye issues

Shaking/trembling from the inside

Electric sensations

Dizziness

 

This is just getting so old. Just wondering if maybe I should have Updosed more.

[SquirrellyGirl]

I am so sorry you are going through this, dang!  For how bad I was feeling yesterday, I know it is nothing compared to what you are experiencing, Djones.  I just can't even imagine, or don't want to :-(

 

This whole business is so unfair.  Why shouldn't someone be able to stop taking these stupid drugs if they want to?!!!  Evil!  

 

All I can say is that this journey has brought me to a place of such compassion for others' suffering, and for that I am actually grateful.  I wish I could make it all better for you, my friend.

 

Maybe this will make you feel better.  Monica Cassini just put up a video for her 6th anniversary for being off the cocktail of drugs she'd been on for 20 years!!

 

http://beyondmeds.com/2016/02/09/6years-off/

 

SG

[Djones1984]

Thanks squirrelly, I think this is all unfair too. I have been having panic attacks again really bad and almost constant shortness of breath type anxiety just pure torture.

[Petunia]

I just can't help but wonder though weather I should have went up to maybe 2mg instead of 1.5mg.

I guess I should just hold and wait it out.

 

Yes you answered your own question You can still go up to 2mg once you have stabilized on 1.5, if you want to, but you have to give yourself a chance to stabilize there first. Give yourself at least a month, maybe longer if your symptoms are still fluctuating. Once they have stabilized at a constant level, then re-evaluate. It seems like at the moment you are having bad days and worse days and the occasional better day. Wait until they are all the same. If after you have stabilized you feel like you are generally slightly better, but not much, then if you want to, you could try going up a little bit more. If you decide you are good enough and functional, then you might decide to hold there for a while. But if you are generally much worse, then its probably better to drop down and continue tapering.

 

But please, give yourself at least a month or two to stabilize and see where you are.

 

This is just getting so old. Just wondering if maybe I should have Updosed more.

 

I don't think it would have made any difference, you would still have to go through this windows and waves process of waiting to stabilize.

 

I know its really excruciatingly difficult getting through days like this, there are a few of us in bad waves at the moment, probably a lot more who don't even post, but read about all of us suffering and don't feel quite so alone. But waves pass, as much as they feel like they never do, they always do, its just a matter of holding on just a bit longer, one more minute turns into one more day and then we are back on calmer ground again.

 

Check out Monica's video above, like SG suggested. She was so sick she couldn't even sit up in bed, for over 2 years, but look at her now...

[Djones1984]

I did check out Monica's video what an incredible story there. I am just so angry at myself for tapering to fast and making myself very bad off again for probably many months. I also believe I have hit complete tolorance on the klonoipn so I don't get any relief there either anymore. God help me get through this.

[Djones1984]

These constant panic attacks and shortness of breath is absolutely disabling.

[Christian]

I'm sorry you are struggling DJones. I hope it passes soon for you.

[Djones1984]

Thanks chistian I hope so too. I did some hard pysical labor today and it went ok. I am trying to work through this but the drive to the job in the morning is filled with pure panic. I am just trying to get through this day by day right now.

[Djones1984]

The anxiety, fear and panic is killing me this morning. This is just crazy hope it calms down.