DJones: Celexa kindling reaction

[SquirrellyGirl]

DJones, have you removed gluten and milk from your diet?  I recently read an article about how night time panic attacks may be caused by a spasm of the diaphragm which causes the breathlessness and panic, and these spasms can be caused by milk and/or gluten intolerance.  Just something to think about.  

 

I have found Emotional Freedom Techniques to be helpful for insomnia and anxiety as it is a form of mindfulness that also uses acupressure points that I believe release endorphins.  Also known as "tapping."

 

I hope this helps!  I'm sorry you are suffering so much right now :-(

 

SG

[TommyG]

Hi Djones... I have been following your story for the last hour or so reading your posts

 

knowing what i know and what ive been through and the symptoms you described, it seems to me your SSRI is compounding your issue... you had a adverse reaction years ago and taking it on a daily basis will not calm down or stabilise your frazzled CNS... it is far to stimulating for your body... this is being further compounded by your benzo use as your displaying classic benzo tolerance issues... the windows you describe are simply the benzo kickng in... and the waves are the benzo wearing off... this daily cycle will NOT heal your CNS

 

personally, i would cold turkey the SSRI... then follow the ashton manual for coming off your benzo to avoid seizures... i would never normally recommend CT but you have had no improvements in 3 years 

 

it will be painful and take perhaps 1-3 years to get back to baseline but you will see recovery during this period... if you carry on like this you COULD be in the same state in 3 years time

 

however, listen to the mods on here... im just giving you another view point... its upsetting to read some of your posts as i can feel the pain and desperation in your messages

 

take care buddy 

 

Tom x

 

p.s. this link got me through my adverse reaction

 

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/reaction.htm

[Djones1984]

I have thought about cold turkey the celexa and the benzo like you said. I have not made really any recovery in 3 years and it's not really getting much better. I have considered a rapid detox off the K and throwing the celexa in the garbage. I should have just stayed off everything 3 years ago and I would probably be 80 percent recovered like you tommy.

[Djones1984]

Probably right i will never see any reco very while still on the meds

[Petunia]

The problem with going CT is there is a very real possibility that you would get worse before you start getting better and you have to ask yourself, are you prepared to go through a period of feeling worse than you already are, perhaps becoming completely non-functional and in serious, non-stop suffering 24/7, including losing your ability to sleep.

 

Going CT off benzos can cause seizures, so I don't recommend that, but even a too fast taper off your benzo would most likely cause an increase of symptoms before you started to feel better, so, you would need to be able to organize your life to accommodate that and be willing to tolerate feeling much worse for a while.

 

Its not that I want to scare you, but you need to understand the possible consequences. I've lived through extreme symptoms and its bad, you don't want to go there if you can avoid it, and there are people who have had it worse than me. Once your nervous system really falls off the cliff, it can take a long time before you even notice any sign of recovery at all, it took me about 2 years before I could notice any progress. Don't believe it if you think it can't get worse, it can and you want to avoid making things worse if at all possible.

 

There's no point in looking back and wishing we had done things differently, that only causes more disappointment and grief. I'm sure most of us here would have made different decisions if we could go back, I certainly would. I never would have taken an antidepressant in the first place.

 

I'm sorry DJ, you're in a tough spot right now and there's not a quick fix. But you're splitting your K dose, and once that's adjusted properly and you have stabilized from that, it will probably help a lot, plus you may still be adjusting to recent celexa changes. You need to work on being patient and looking at the big picture. You have a plan, give it a chance.

[TommyG]

I think a CT off Celexa... then switch from klonopin to diazapam... then taper slowly from that using the Ashton Manual

 

I agree with Petunia it will be ugly and it will be horrible... but hopefully in the next 1-3 years you will start to recover

 

However as Petunia said if you did do this you need to make your life as "comfortable" and "stress free" as possible... could you afford to take a year out from work???

 

I would ditch the SSRI... It's obvious your not stabilising on it

[Djones1984]

I am loosing hope of ever coming out of this mess.

[Skyler]

I am loosing hope of ever coming out of this mess.

 

Dj... you were feeling some better before moving the last K. dose... please don't move the split doses any further for a week.

[TommyG]

The key solution to recovery is NOT to stimulate your nervous system, but, to sedate your nervous system. Every time when you stimulate a nervous system that in fact needs to be sedated to recover, you delay the process of healing.

[Djones1984]

My CNS is so rattled right now every sounds sends shocks through my whole body I have never been this bad off ever. 3 years and worse than I was one day one cold turkey. Unbelievable

[AliG]

DJ .   Petunia & Skyler are right .   Stick with the plan . Hang in there.  Please don't make any rash decisions . As Petu said  - It can get worse . You could become totally dysfunctional  and lose the ability to sleep . As one going through this , believe me , you don't want to go there.

Ali

[TommyG]

get off your poisonous SSRI  mate... then switch your benzo to diazapam... then taper from that

 

Alto... do you agree??? his CNS is fried and will never heal for as long as he's putting a stimulating SSRI in his body everyday

[Djones1984]

I don't know what to think about all that I was alot better at one point not great but better.

 

Things have gone from bad to completely devistating since moving the benzo dose so far. Akathesia so strong and a feeling of electricity like my cns is completely destabilized again.

[Fresh]

Hi DJones ,

TommyG is not correct saying that " his CNS is fried and will never heal for as long as he's putting a stimulating SSRI in his body everyday".  You can't just "ditch the ssri" without risking many years of protracted withdrawal.

 

Most members on this site report continuous improvement as their dose gets lower - it's like the baseline gets higher

after each drop.  I've tapered from 50mg to 22.5mg pristiq in the past 12 months , and am feeling more organized and calm , and functioning better than I have for many years.

 

Have you felt any change since increasing from 1mg to 1.5mg ?

 

BW ,   Fresh

 

TOMMYG , please would you fill in your signature with your medication history , so that we can understand your suggestions and advice in context of your personal history.

Thanks.

[Altostrata]

Hi, Tommy. Thank you for being so willing to help.

 

No, I most certainly do NOT agree that Celexa is causing all DJ's problems. It may or it may not be a problem, as we discussed above.

 

DJ's nervous system is NOT irrevocably fried.

 

Please be aware that what worked for you or what intuitively seems like a good idea for you may not work that way for somebody else.

[Djones1984]

Fresh I have not really felt much of a change from the 1 to 1.5mg increase but I also am dealing with the klonopin situation. I feel like I have not totally felt better since all the drug changes and possible adverse reactions 3 years ago but I was better and more functional than I am right now.

 

Right now I am dealing with the frustration and relization as to how sensitive I still am to changes and I set myself back big time with not keeping notes on the Celexa taper and now mesing up a little on the K doses.

 

Just wish I would have done it all differently but it is what it is now I suppose.

[Djones1984]

Thank you alto

[Djones1984]

It's funny how it all happend though it's like it all changed overnight. really I had a couple bumps in the road while tapering but for the last 2 months I have been in a very bad place again.

 

When I got down below 1.5mg on the Celexa is when I began to have issues and I should have just held there.

 

And no I am not cold turkeying the celexa and I am not tapering the K until I am way more stable probably at least 6 months.

[TommyG]

Good luck djones... I wish you all the best in your recovery

 

x

[Djones1984]

Honestly in my windows I feel more alive than in years but they are short lived sometimes just an hour. It than gets muddled with the K I feel when I get stable again I have to consider starting to slowly taper the K and leave the celexa alone.

[Djones1984]

This is all so crazy because in one way yoy feel that you need off the drugs to feel better which is somewhat true but if you go just a little to fast yoy become destabilized and in a worse place and it all seems like it can happen over night.

 

I should have been keeping better notes and for that I am frustrated with myself. It's all just really complex stuff. These drugs are just plain nasty.

[AliG]

DJ.      It is wise to stay stable , for a good long while . I know you want " off" , but you need to do it in a safe way .  Please keep notes from hereon in . This will help you , in the long run .  At this point , stay stable.

[TommyG]

Can someone please explain the logic behind tapering something which can't be tolerated by a human body?

 

Thanks

[ChessieCat]

Hi Tommy,

 

I've replied to your question on your own thread.

[Djones1984]

Tommy I don't know if you are seeing the whole picture here. I was on the Celexa and various ssri for 13 years prior to this reaction and withdrawl which started 3 years ago.

 

When I went off cold turkey I completely lost it after a few months. I was than placed back on it at the full dose which was to much and beetween that and all the other drugs they had me on destabilized my cns.

 

I finally got somewhat stable at 5mg and have been tapering down for a year on that. Sure I wonder what it would have been like if I just stayed off everything back 3 years ago. More than likely I would have been completely unfunctional for 2 years plus.

 

If I cold turkey the celexa now it's just going to further destabilize my system.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Can someone please explain the logic behind tapering something which can't be tolerated by a human body?

 

Thanks

 

Chessie replied on Tommie's thread but I'll answer here for anyone who is following this thread.  The problem is that the nervous system has remodeled to take the action of the drug into account, in a push-back attempt to come back to homeostasis.  The drugs create an abnormal condition of too much serotonin (for SSRIs, norepinephrine, too, for SNRIs) in the gap between nerves, and the body down-regulates serotonin production and receptors in an effort to bring things back to where it wants them.  So, even if the drug is causing adverse reactions upon reinstatement, those changes are still there and NOT having the drug there is causing chaos, like yanking a trellis out from under a vine that has grown on it.  So, withdrawal symptoms occur.  To alleviate withdrawal you need to give the system the drug it became dependent on because of that remodeling.  A real bind, if you can't tolerate the drug due to adverse reactions, which are due to perhaps the body not tolerating that chemical, which these drugs are!  Hopefully, a very small amount would be enough to alleviate withdrawal somewhat while not causing a paradoxical reaction.

 

SG

[Djones1984]

I had a few days where I felt a little better. I am now back in a pit again my cns is just destabilized I am sensitive to everything again.

 

I just can't wrap my head around how I would be getting worse not better after 3 years. I am really struggling to live like this right now.

[Djones1984]

I am really having a difficult time with this I have tried medatation, message, camomile tea, etc. It seems that nothing helps me relax.

 

I used to get more windows but I have just been sick as a dog lately with every symptom imaginable including a few new ones like my nose burns and head and I have severe bouts of nausea.

 

The K sure feels like it is messing me up bad right now. Everything just feels so raw like my cns is completely burned out again. I really don't know how to even go on living feeling like this. I guess it's day by day but I hardly have it in my to get through one more moment at times.

[Fresh]

Do you feel worse after taking the klonipin? You've mentioned a number of times that you feel it's messing with you.

 

I know from when I was really sick that sometimes it is a matter of just surviving day to day , one half hour at a time.

Keep reminding yourself it isn't permanent.

It's a matter of time till you stabilize - your job is to sit tight.

 

[Djones1984]

Just feel the highs and lows and sometimes like a drugged out feeling like an addict which i am i suppose.

 

It's just the mixture ok the K and celexa withdrawl I am sure that is just pure hell.

 

Sometimes after I take my dose of k it almost feels paradoxical like my brain is trying to Stay in control with the flight or fright and the K is masking half of it but I can feel the conflict all taking place in my body or brain. Like its trying to calm my cns down but it cant.

 

So I guess I wouldn't say I feel worse after taking it just differnt. I just want my cns to calm down a little and be somewhat stable again. I can not see the light and the end of the tunnel anymore and just wish I would have stayed on the 5mg or not tapered as fast because at least I was functional before.

[Djones1984]

Thank you fresh I know it's day by day but it's been so long and say I get stable again well than I have to finish my celexa taper and than taper the benzo. So I will be in this mess all over again. I don't know anymore feel like I am loosing my mind with fear.

[Djones1984]

So I am 31 and this whole ordeal started when I was 28. My wife is 30 and we where planning on having a baby sometime. I just feel that so much of my life had been robbed and that I will never be well enough to have children. The thought has really been scaring me lately.

[bubble]

Hello DJ,

 

I'm really sorry you are feeling so bad and I'm afraid I don't have anything more to add to the excellent advice you have already received.

 

When we destabilise our CNS through tapering too fast things can get pretty ugly and last for long. I'm actually in that same boat right now. I have been struggling badly for over 4 months now. I took 5 weeks off work which has never happened before for me and this experience really shook me to the core. It forced me to revise the major ideas about my life and I had to look into the eyes of the possibility I will stop working, lose my flat and basically everything I have. Not to mention not having a child because I'm 39 and a woman.  I have no choice but to hold. Time is my friend. I was able to go back to work and I work somehow. I don't know what tomorrow brings but from where I stand it very often seems very bleak.And yet I choose not to believe what I see in such states.

 

When I read through your posts, especially that last one where you worry about having children I see that for you the same as for me neuroemotions are the worst part of this deal. They make both the past and future look equally horrible as the present moment we are enduring. You often mention how you struggled for 3 years. But then in other places you mention you felt better than now.

 

I had a few days where I felt a little better. I am now back in a pit again my cns is just destabilized I am sensitive to everything again.

I just can't wrap my head around how I would be getting worse not better after 3 years. I am really struggling to live like this right now.

 

What you wrote not so long ago on 3 March is for me an indication that you are moving in the right direction. I live from one moment of relief to the next. And while I wasn't able to function I was happy that I wasn't getting worse. I have to respect my sensitivity. I can't meet any friends because it shakes up my CNS badly and causes horrible DP/DR and panic level anxiety.

 

You tapered too fast. That's why you are not getting better after 3 years. But on the other hand, you are on a really low dose. So that's what you did for yourself over the last 3 years.  You also learnt how to deal with these drugs. You are doing a lot of good things for yourself: meditation, massage... and they are helping your recovery although you are not feeling it at the moment. I will say again: time is our best and very often only friend in this. While I still struggle to live like this I can say for sure it is better than 2 months ago. Although there can be times where I will feel just as bad as ever.

 

It's very hard to say something about the dose of drugs when somebody has tapered too fast. I remember people who started feeling better after updosing significantly. But this depends on how you felt upon updosing. There are only 2 things which I see as constant: no matter what we do after we get destabilised it will take time to go away. More time than we feel is due and more time than we feel we can endure. But we can by accepting that pain is only now and limiting demands on ourselves as much as possible. I often say it's like we broke our leg. What will help: time and rest. What will cause pain: if we try to use it the way we are used to. Do we think we will be unable to move from now on? No. Do we expect to be able to go about our errands in a few days? No. You will notice that we are treating the case of our drug induced brain injury very differently than what we would treat our leg...

 

What helps me most is having faith in my healing. And thinking about moments when I felt ok during moments when I feel like I'm breaking helps me to maintain that faith. Try to see any limitations you are having at the moment as something temporary. It might last for a few months but it will end. Try to become aware of your thoughts which are neuroemotions (I see lots of them in your posts). They are what make this process especially tortureous. We can't stop them but we can learn to distance ourselves from them.

 

I would stay the course, be as gentle to myself as possible, do healing things even if you don't feel their impact immediately. And pray for patience and faith in healing.

 

I recently visited Robben Island where Nelson Mandela spent a large part of his 27 years in prison. The guide spent a few years there as well. He told us that what helped them to survive was belief that they would be set free one day. If they looked at the circumstances around them there wasn't much hope but they believed. He said that they worked very hard to stay positive. Talking about faith might seem silly but I really find it key because it helps us to accept and endure.

 

I didn't read the whole of your thread. Just your signature and a few of the last posts here and in the benzo subforum. But it was difficult for me to see what symptoms you are having at the moment. I remembered ssriwarrior who started getting better when she updosed significantly but I would be hesitant to advise that. Maybe you can check out about her experience. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7038-ssriwarrior-my-taper-off-of-lexapro-10mg/page-6#entry206302

 

Hang in there.

[Altostrata]

Dj, what time of day do you take Celexa? How do you feel before you take it? How do you feel after you take it?

 

Please keep notes on paper about your daily symptom pattern, your drugs and dosages, and when you take them.

[Djones1984]

Alto, I take celexa around 8 am or whenever I wa ke up. I feEl anxiety bad In the morning when I first wake up and tend to feel a little better after first k dose and celexa.

[Altostrata]

As you take the Klonopin and Celexa together, it's impossible to tell what the Celexa is doing.

 

What is your symptom pattern for the rest of the day? You may need to track it for a few days before answering.