The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[PortugueseSea]

Given that my adverse reaction normal is still so bad with agitation/dysphoria I find waves hard to fathom, but hey, I guess that is a sign I am improving, I don't feel waves as consistently as before. A year ago, when I had a crisis I had a crisis. 

 

 

[Leonardo]

Has anyone here had existential and identity crises? I've had, I'm already going to two. They last about two weeks and then pass...

[Jakeblack14]

Hey @Leonardo - In my own experience I have had many instances that feel like an identity crisis. In my own withdrawal, when it was at its worst, I felt like I didn't understand what I should or shouldn't do. Lots of confusion. What was helpful for me was to monitor my symptoms and pick one or two that I could link to withdrawal. (Nausea and Tight head/foggy brained were mine) Thus, when I felt like I didn't know what was going on, I could point back to a symptom of withdrawal and be able to write off my fake thoughts as a part of withdrawal. Hopefully that may be helpful to you. 

Good luck, keep taking care of yourself. 

[Onmyway]

@Leonardo yes, this is not uncommon and decision making can be really difficult due to this because we don't know if this is temporary or our true self. 

I will have to say that for me withdrawal has been challenging in terms of identity but also helpful in figuring out that it is OK to change your mind about things and reinvent yourself. I found this to be a period of growth, personally. Change is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

We have crises of identify because we are scared of and resist new thoughts/feelings/ideas. It is only a crisis if it is in conflict with something else. When you accept things they become less scary. Don't be scared of change.  Thoughts/feelings/identities are transitory. We are in constant flux. If you embrace that it makes life much easier. 

 

OMW

[Kat66]

Is it normal to have the worst wave ever immediately after a long, good window? Just wondering if anyone else can relate to this or has experienced it? I’m two years into a taper off citalopram.

[HugHK]

9 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

Is it normal to have the worst wave ever immediately after a long, good window? Just wondering if anyone else can relate to this or has experienced it? I’m two years into a taper off citalopram.

absolutely. 

 

These are my worst symptoms this year, rated out of ten for each week since the beginning of the year. 

 

(In reality anxiety is a cluster of symptoms (anxiety = pins and needles in my head, feeling startled all the time, dizziness, palpitations etc). SOB = Shortness of breath

 

 

You can see that each one started all of a sudden. Paresthisia is a form of nerve pain, so when my anxiety  hit in May, I only had moderate to potent nerve pain and mild shortness of breath, ie I was doing pretty well and most of the symptoms I'd had in the past were gone. 

 

So yes, in my experience, waves hit hard unexpectedly. My weeks in May-June were some of the worst I'd had since the very start, and I had not had significant anxiety like this since January 2022 before that. 

 

My last dose change was in April 2022, so it also appeared a long time after I last changed my dose. 

[Leonardo]

I had a fantastic 4-day window where I had libido, erections, emotions and feelings again. The emotional anesthesia disappeared during this period of time. I'm again apathetic, depressed, without libido, without enthusiasm. I'm starting to have suicidal ideation again because I'm starting to lose hope that I'm going to beat this. Will this happen one day? I wonder if this is a problem with me or the result of withdrawal. Are you 100% sure that this is withdrawal? I want to believe so...

 

It seems I'm not getting better, it seems I'm condemned to always have waves... Will they pass? I want to believe so.

[ElaineM]

Don’t lose hope! and hopefully someone with more knowledge on the topic will answer you soon!! Hopefully you have a support group to help you through this time. God loves you!

[Jakeblack14]

Hey @Leonardo. 

 

In my experience it can be completely normal to experience a couple of a good days and then move into another wave. There are lots of factors at play. Your brain could be healing one thing and then heal another 4 days later. 

 

I have found it helpful for myself to pick two or three symptoms that I recognize as waves. (Nausea, foggy brain, dizziness) or the like and use those as a sort of compass as to what is a wave and what isn't. 

 

Keep taking care of yourself. Good luck!! 

[Estman]

Can all group B vitamins cause a wave?
I have experienced this before with vitamin B12 and also with vitamin B6.
I have now been taking vitamin B1 for two weeks to reduce my chronic fatigue and low stomach acid which causes gastroparesis.
Initially, the feeling of well-being seemed to improve.
I only took 100mg a day
After 10 days, I reduced Clomipramine by about 3.5%.
The first week was tolerable, but yesterday a very strong wave suddenly appeared
It started with severe depression and continued with great restlessness and agitation and despair.
There is also an extremely bad feeling in the head.
I was only able to sleep for a few hours.
I have also been taking an omega fish oil capsule and vitamin D for the last couple of days
I also ate salmon cooked in the oven and maybe the histamine is too much?
The hardest is at night when everyone is asleep
I lay in bed, very agitated and desperate and unable to fall asleep, it is very difficult to even stay still.
Clomipramine is tricyclic and can vitamin B1 increase cholinergic rebound?
B1, or thiamine, was supposed to promote the synthesis of acetylcholine.
In any case, a rash has started very suddenly and I don't remember it for more than a month.
I stopped all supplements for now because I don't know if they make it harder

[Estman]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:20 AM, Yesyes123 said:

How do you guys deal with the fact doctors are simply clueless about what these drugs really are, how they work, what they actually do to people and especially their possible dangers? Do you just avoid thinking about it?

 

It's not even just that they're clueless - they live in a separate reality where these drugs are "harmless" and always help everyone with little to no problems whatsoever - everything in their lives points to that… I mean,

 

Their colleagues, their teachers at university, their entire literature, the drug companies, the fact these drugs are extremely common and used/ seen as if they're no big deal by most people… everything and everyone they trust tells them to keep drugging people, it's good, you're helping them.

 

Can you really blame them? Yes and no, I think. I mean, I keep thinking that if I was a doctor I would absolutely figure it out instantly and would learn the truth about these drugs. But would I really? Maybe I would have turned into one of those doctors who totally believe these drugs are fixing chemical imbalances...

 

This **** makes me suicidal sometimes. It's just so insanely atrocious and it seems unreal - a dark, twisted horror story. Sometimes I just can't believe the world I lived in and was so happy on is plagued by this demon named psychiatry. People are being told they have brain diseases that aren't real and drugged for them. Innocent, completely normal and healthy people. It's truly sickening.

 

I'm not even sure what's worse… the withdrawal symptoms or the realization that all this insane and terrible sh*t is actually real and it's happening everyday to countless people all around the world. And I'm one of them. It makes me sick to think I put that pill in my mouth everyday for years. 

 

I'm thankful to be on my way out of this and I really want to make a huge difference on this scandal somehow. 

 

Yes,me too.

I went to the endocrinologist last week
I wanted to know why my Gastrin hormone level is too low and if it can cause indigestion
Also checked my cortisol and it seems to be at a normal level.
Finally, he said that I have depression and the symptoms of it and I need to go to the psychiatrist again and change the drug
I said that I don't want new drugs anymore and I regret that I ever started them in the first place.
He looked at me with a strange face, he is sick and does not want treatment.
Pretty hopeless, all doctors are the same.
I wasn't born with a pill in my mouth, and before antidepressants I didn't have depression, at least I didn't have waves like that.
Even if I reduce my daily dose by 2-3%, I always experience waves during the next month.
Of course, the doctors would think that the disease had returned

[Tom37]

Hi all,

 

Coming up 5 years since my journey started and have lurched into a pretty horrible wave starting 5 days ago but looking back the signs where there the week before I was on my way into one.

 

My windows or being at baseline now goes for months, think it was 5 months between waves this time. Can’t say I’m 100 percent normal during it but have very minor symptoms or none.

 

Im assuming what im experiencing is normal but if anyone can reassure me please go ahead.

[gentlehermione]

Hi @Tom37

 

I sympathize! Coming up to six years off, I find myself in a wave which I believe has been induced by seasonal change. 
 

Setbacks like these make you wonder whether the nightmare of withdrawal will one day come to an end! I personally believe it will however it’s requiring maximum patience and acceptance…

 

Hope you’re feeling better soon 🤗

[member21]

It is very scary and upsetting to know that even after 6 yr of successful coming off… waves are experienced.

I have already been tapering for about 3 years. I have not made much tapering progress in the last one year. And sometimes feel that won’t be able to further reduce the medicines much. My current state of physical & mental stamina makes me feel so.

 

[gentlehermione]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:09 PM, member21 said:

It is very scary and upsetting to know that even after 6 yr of successful coming off… waves are experienced.

 

Dear @member21

 

Don’t lose heart!
 

Everyone experiences withdrawal differently. Initially I unknowingly tapered off Effexor too quickly, had to reinstate for a short time and then was obliged to CT (medical reasons). Not exactly ideal circumstances…
 

Over time the waves have lessened in intensity and are of shorter duration 🙂

[BrokenWings]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:40 AM, gentlehermione said:

I sympathize! Coming up to six years off, I find myself in a wave which I believe has been induced by seasonal change. 
 

Setbacks like these make you wonder whether the nightmare of withdrawal will one day come to an end! I personally believe it will however it’s requiring maximum patience and acceptance…

 

@gentlehermione

 

I am approaching 6 years off, and I too am still experiencing setbacks  Sadly, you are not alone. My recent setback also has me wondering whether the nightmare of withdrawal will one day come to an end. My patience is growing thin but I continue to endure.

[MiscMan73]

I hate to be a downer (as if we all aren't dealing with enough) but I have to say I'm getting really worried reading posts in this thread. I thought withdrawal was something I would endure for a year, maybe two years at most. But from what it looks like, no one ever really gets away from it, least of all someone like myself with a long history of usage. Is it naively optimistic of me to assume that the people who've experienced true recovery simply don't come to this forum anymore? Because a lot of success stories sound to me like they've just reached a point where they have slightly more windows than waves and thinking about this is making me feel so rotten. I don't want to be trapped in an inescapable cycle for the rest of my life. 

[Onmyway]

Hi @MiscMan73, 

I think you are reading these messages with dark colored glasses on. The truth is that eventually everyone recovers and many don't come back because they don't want to think of it - so  the long termers are the worst cases here. Not only that but the symptoms keep getting better slowly for most everyone. There are a few exceptions that have really bad symptoms without windows and waves for a few years. But recover you will!

 

I am 4.5 yrs from a 5 month taper (30-20-10-5-0mg) but reinstated a low dose. My first 4-5 months were awful. Then it was windows and waves but less awful, now most of my days are pretty good - difficult mornings and good evenings. But I do get waves where things are bad for a week or a few - depends on the level of stress in my life as well. I am still tapering very very very very slowly. Now at 0.33mg after an error that resulted in a large drop. So, you will - 1) definitely get back to normal* 2) you will get better over time slowly 3) you will (most likely) do this through windows and waves. 

 

Now, normal* can mean pre-drugs but remember that we took these drugs for a reason so our normal* pre drugs may still require treatment or management of symptoms - if you did have OCD, unless you did something about it, it is unlikely that your OCD will never return after drugs so you will need to work at it with other methods -  like therapy, symptom management, meditation etc. If you had situational depression or anxiety (you were prescribed the drugs for bereavement for example) those would likely not come back. Now, some drugs are harmful and may result in cognitive or metabolic decline if you took them for years and year. And we have aged during this time so we generally decline anyway. But if a drug caused weight gain and metabolic issues like high cholesterol I have seen that those usually go away after stopping the drug. If you had brain fog because you were drugged out of your mind on olanzapine, that will clear up. 

 

Many of us are forced to learn ways to manage our emotional symptoms in withdrawal. We wish we had been taught/learned these before taking the drugs but unfortunately it is what it is. Many of us also get a confidence boost - "if we can get through this terror and panic, then a simple anxious feeling is no match". I would encourage you to look at various techniques to help your symptoms. 

 

1) this free course and a subsequent practice of meditation is a great investment: 

https://palousemindfulness.com/

 

2) learning to face your feelings (still working on it) is very helpful - I loved the book "90 seconds to a life you love"; videos by Claire Weekes and her AAF technique are also very helpful

 

3) CBT may be helpful depending on your circumstances - either alone or with a therapist 

 

4) trauma therapy might be necessary after withdrawal depending on your history (we don't recommend it during withdrawal usually). 

 

What I am saying is that recovery is the norm but you may need to work  on developing "better habits of mind" as Alto puts it. 

 

 

 

 

[MiscMan73]

@Onmyway

Thank you for the reply. I got hit with a massive wave this morning after a 48 hour window and it's been hard to handle. I'm trying to keep in my mind what my mother always says: "this too shall pass." It's just so hard to hold on to that thought when your brain and nervous system are torturing you. Yesterday I was thinking I would be so productive today but now I can't accomplish anything and the guilt I feel over it is overwhelming. It's giving me pangs of anxiety so intense they make my legs feel like jelly. 

 

I'm one of those people who likes to look at studies and statistics to make sense of my life and the world. So, right now, one of my only comforts is looking at this case study of a man whose situation reminds me a lot of my own. He's around my age, was bounced around multiple drugs by his doctors like me, and most specifically, was on the same SSRI as me. Now and again I'll come back to it to read the line, "The patient's depressive and anxious symptoms had not returned 12 weeks post escitalopram cessation and he was antidepressant free without the re-emergence of MDD for the first time in five years," and think to myself, "God, I hope that can happen for me." It's a shame AD withdrawal has only recently been embraced by medical researchers because it would be such a blessing to have a backlog of scientifically measured recovery cases to reference. 

[Jakeblack14]

Hey friends, 

I am three months off Lexapro after a taper off. The last drop was too much for sure at about .85, but the liquid form metabolized differently and I wasnt able to reliably cut the pill anymore. Experienced the High highs and low lows in the first 2 months. Month 3 seems to be much much more intense. 

Long story short - waves are HEAVY. Mornings are the hardest and evenings are very flu like, nausea is pretty intense and the depressional symptoms are strong. 

Couple of questions: 
Eating a low carb diet seems to be helpful. I tend to get a wave pretty bad if I exercise really at all. I was very active before this, but its sounds like it may just be better to not move much at all. Do you guys have any tips for what's been helpful in a wave? Still popping magnesium daily (safe dosage) and omega 3. When things got really bad, I took some ibuprophen which helps a ton, but makes the next day worse. Anyone else experience that? 
Really just looking for any and all suggestions. 

Thanks so much,
Jake

[persistente]

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

- difficult mornings and good evenings. But I do get waves where things are bad for a week or a few - depends on the level of stress in my life as well.

This made me realize something very important. The difference in my mornings and evenings tells me that behind my depression and apathy must be wd. Not my life circumstances. Not me. 

[Tom37]

Hello,

 

I seem to be in a rather nasty wave which was most likely brought on by intense exercise.

 

Always wondered if healing is actually happening in these waves that are brought on by a stressor or is it just a destabilised nervous system that is unhappy and is trying to settle down again? 
 

Am I suffering for no healing?

[Jakeblack14]

@Tom37, 

 

Really sorry you are going through it right now. 150% not for nothing. Our brains seem to have a way of responding to whatever stressor and realizing there was something else to heal. Then we heal, rinse, repeat. 

 

Perhaps it's a little bit of both, we already have a destabilized nervous system in the process of repairing, then the stressor aggravated it. Like picking at a scab. 

 

I am also an athlete, I have had to give up intense exercise and settle for softer less strenuous forms. I think it's only temporary, we will get back to healthy and back to our best healthy selves. 

 

You've got this. 

[member21]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:53 PM, MiscMan73 said:

I thought withdrawal was something I would endure for a year, maybe two years at most.

Actually I also expected the same. Also I have seen that some people have been able to taper at a constant approximately 10% per month…to zero. But not everyone is able to taper so smoothly.

Though waves do come, but I think slowly we notice the better quality of life at lower doses. So perhaps the trick is to maintain the taper at the right pace.

[MiscMan73]

Does anyone else experience alternating physical and emotional symptoms? In my case, I often get one or the other on different days. Yesterday, for example, I felt completely miserable: intense anhedonia, couldn't stop thinking the darkest possible thoughts, etc. Today, however, my mood pulled a 180 and I felt emotionally great from the moment I woke up; but, like some kind of balancing act by my brain, my happiness was paired with an abrupt onset of tinnitus that has been keeping up all day. And looking back in my diary, there seems to be a pattern where the days on which I feel emotionally fantastic, I have to contend with stuff like headaches or joint pain. Conversely, on the heavy anhedonia days, I typically don't get anything physical. 

 

15 hours ago, member21 said:

Actually I also expected the same. Also I have seen that some people have been able to taper at a constant approximately 10% per month…to zero. But not everyone is able to taper so smoothly.

Though waves do come, but I think slowly we notice the better quality of life at lower doses. So perhaps the trick is to maintain the taper at the right pace.

For many it does seem that they need the perfect balance. Not too much, not too little, and at just the right pace. I'm hoping I can make it through my CT without resintating but my opinion on that changes every day...

[Leonardo]

@MiscMan73 I see myself a little in what you say, I just don't have physical symptoms, just psychological ones. I also feel completely miserable for weeks and then suddenly I feel great. It also happens to me that my mood varies several times throughout the day. I think it's normal and I wouldn't worry about it. It's part of this journey...

[sandnit]

I was about to start my taper again but since more than 2 weeks ago a wave started after a pretty long period of feeling ok (2 months). A couple of days ago a had a day of feeling better and thought the wave was retreating but it didn't. On the contrary, some new symptoms appeared and some symptoms seem to have worsened the last couple of days and there are no signs of letting up. I find that this has me worried even more than normal during a wave. Can anybody relate to this?

 

Also a couple of days ago i developed cold and a sore throat. Could something like this be prolonging or make the wave worse?  

 

[Jools44]

@sandnit I think anything that stresses the body, and therefore the nervous system, has the potential to bring on, or worsen WD, including illness. 
It’s out of your control really so just try and ride the waves and enjoy the windows as best you can. WD is so unpredictable and you can really tie yourself in knots trying to figure it out.

[sandnit]

@Jools44, thanks so much your reply I really appreciate it.

Up to a certain point during a wave I can ride it. But if it takes longer than for instance the last wave ....... I start worrying more, start trying to figure it etc etc. 

 

It is unpredictable and I wish I could figure it out and control it. But unfortunately this is not possible. So you are fully right .....it's best to accept and be patient and ride the wave. This to shall pass

 

 

[missy27]

Im dealing with my first wave. Im a couple months completely off meds. I felt great for awhile. I thought, "hey, now im good enough to work". I got a job, and im on my thrid day and i feel like im back in the pits of withdrawl. I feel awful. My anxiety is through the roof, not sleeping or eating again. Is it best to push through this? Or do i quit and wait until i heal more? 

[TheSaxo]

Quote

4) trauma therapy might be necessary after withdrawal depending on your history (we don't recommend it during withdrawal usually). 

This situation fills me with hopelessness...

 

How will I ever be able to heal my traumas if I will likely be experiencing withdrawal for the next 3, 4, 5+ years or even longer?

 

Additionally, I have been off all medications for 9 months now, but the healing process seems to have stalled.

 

The symptoms of anhedonia, emotional numbness, and paresthesia (pinning, needling sensations in my brain) haven't improved much over the last 4 months.

 

I am only 28, life feels ruined

 

I believe I need to come to terms with my new low-quality life now, drop all expectations and accept my new reality.

[PortugueseSea]

It is very interesting how this works out. I have had symptoms go all together, symptoms be sticky, and symptoms wax and wane. It is like instead of an uniform windows and waves each of my symptoms has its own windows and waves pattern...

I know it is hard and discouraging for all of us going through this but the simple fact that things improve over time keeps me going!

[Nypeaches89]

Hey everyone … Has anyone gotten a very tardive wave at 23 months off ? After approx. 14 months without withdrawal wave ?  Just wondering if I have ptsd or a wd wave. 

[KenA]

On 11/23/2023 at 5:23 PM, missy27 said:

Im dealing with my first wave. Im a couple months completely off meds. I felt great for awhile. I thought, "hey, now im good enough to work". I got a job, and im on my thrid day and i feel like im back in the pits of withdrawl. I feel awful. My anxiety is through the roof, not sleeping or eating again. Is it best to push through this? Or do i quit and wait until i heal more? 

@missy27 Only you can decide what is best for you. I personally pushed through my waves and kept working because I was my family's sole provider. But, each of us is different. You have to judge your capabilities and decide what is best! 

[PortugueseSea]

7 hours ago, KenA said:

Only you can decide what is best for you. I personally pushed through my waves and kept working because I was my family's sole provider. But, each of us is different. You have to judge your capabilities and decide what is best! 

I can so relate, I did the same, I am doing the same... It is so rough...

[mario80]

i was 8 years on mitrazpine,than 2 years tapper 30/15/7.5/3.75.I am 2.5 years off.I am in big depression.Last good Windows i have before 8 months,than i have lower windows before 3 months.Now i am total depression numbes,Libido not have.Totaly low motivation.Hard to go out from home.i sleep maybe 4/5 hours.I take omega 3,quercetin,vitamin D.Have big pain constantly in muscle.Life for me totaly lose happiness.I just live becouse must live.Any advice ?Thx❤️.This windows is very low.