Marsha: can I taper off geodon before gabapentin?

[Marsha]

Don't worry about the clonazepam for now.

 

Why are you taking gabapentin?

I am on gabapentin for no reason whatsoever. When I washospitalized for a severe reaction to latuda. They put me on seroqueland cold turkey me off of clonazepam and gave me 1800 milligrams of gabapentin. It just made everything worse and when I got out i had gained 20 pounds in a month so my doctor put me back on geodon trazodone because the geodon caused insomnia and also reinstated the clonazepam. I wish I had known to quickly get off the gabapentin at that time I would have been able to get off it quickly. It just added to my cocktail. Such a farce this is. What should I do? My doctor is clueless.

[Altostrata]

How are you now? Isn't your current doctor a specialist in tardive dyskinesia? You have appointments with others soon, correct?

[Marsha]

How are you now? Isn't your current doctor a specialist in tardive dyskinesia? You have appointments with others soon, correct?

he is a specialist in neurology and said to just stop taking the geodon. Two other doctors have said the same thing including Dr Breggin but he said do in in the hospital so I can be monitored. I have an appointment in February at uc davis but I called the psychiatric department and they said they don't deal with iatrogenic injury nor are they familiar with taking people off drugs. I asked my doctor to get me into the hospital for rapid geodon withdrawal but he only is affiliated with napa state hospital. He works atone of the inpatient centers for napa state along with having his private practice. I could just go to the local hospital asthey would recognize the td and they would send me to the psychiatric hospital in their system to achieve the rapid withdrawal. Or i could try it at home. I just don't know. I just need to get off the geodon before it causes any further damage. Where should I go? Stanford? UCSF?

[Marsha]

I made an observation today. Since I switched back to clonazepam from librium I feel a great deal better. When I was taking the librium my heart would race and I would sweat and I would feel activated all the time. I thought it was the geodon but I was wrong. Librium and probably diazepam also are a no-no for me. Maybe my geodon taper will go more smoothly now. I hope the clonazepam continues to allow me to sleep. I'm still trying to find a doctor who will return my calls; a doctor who specializes in iatrogenic injury. I desperately need a doctor who can sort out the mess I'm in.

[Marsha]

I have completely lost my ability to sleep. What do i do now?

[Meimeiquest]

What exactly has happened? Readjng back, things don't seem clear to an outside reader (insomnia will certainly do this). I think it might help Alto if you can write the drugs you are on with exact doses and exactly what has happened to your sleep, your TD, and your sense of (relative) well being, it will help her. I know it's really hard, and probably harder than I know.

[Marsha]

What exactly has happened? Readjng back, things don't seem clear to an outside reader (insomnia will certainly do this). I think it might help Alto if you can write the drugs you are on with exact doses and exactly what has happened to your sleep, your TD, and your sense of (relative) well being, it will help her. I know it's really hard, and probably harder than I know.

for about two weeks now my sleep ability has steadily declined. Didn't change any drugs or dosages until December 8 after 0 hours of sleep the night before. Oh sorry I did take 50 mgs trazodone for two nights before that and slept well. Then on December 7 had no sleep at all. Had telephone visit with doctor and he stopped the librium started 2-3 mgs clonazepam and 150 mgs trazodone and lamotrgine. Didn't take trazodone or lamotrgine but took 2 mgs clonazepam in divided doses. Slept well for three days. Then December12 insomnia started again. Out of desperation took 3 mgs clonazepam and 150 mgs trazodone. Was semiconsciousfor three hours then wide awake. No panic no other symptoms except anxiety about not being able to sleep. Texted doctor. Waiting to hear back. TD waxes and wanes. May have to stop geodon. All the other neuroleptic cause insomnia.

[Meimeiquest]

Your last Geodon reduction was to 43.95 mg on October 27?

[Marsha]

Your last Geodon reduction was to 43.95 mg on October 27?

yes meimei. Don't know what to do.

[Altostrata]

Marsha, please stay calm. Insomnia is a common symptom of drug changes. It's awful but you'll get through it. This bout could be from the Librium switch.

 

In the San Francisco Bay Area, I prefer the California Pacific Medical Center.

[Meimeiquest]

Well, first you need to just hold on and wait for Alto.

 

Second, the most common event that causes this is over activation of the locus coeruleus. Here is a link where Alto talks about that http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/392-one-theory-of-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome/

 

In cases I have seen here, it seems to be caused not so much by a specific drug but by too much "coming and going" of drugs. Until you get advice from someone who knows better, holding still chemically is your best bet. And I doubt if even these big specialists know enough. So if that is what you decide to do, you would stay at the same Geodon dose and whatever Klonopin dose you decide on, and just hold on tight. If you use benzos on an "as needed" or escalating basis, things will really get out of control.

 

Sleep in the best dark you can come up with. Stay in the dark for the same eight hours every night, you can use an amber light if you need to. Try to get outside for at least thirty minutes around "solar noon." The more exposure to outside light, the better. Also, being outside as dusk falls can help some people (and then stay away from bright/computer lighting until you go to bed). If you are able, exercise/move gently for 30 minutes a day at a walk-the-dog exertion level, or less if needed. Try to keep the timing and general content of meals the same day to day. You are trying to convince your brain that it is indeed safe to go to sleep, and light/darkness, movement, and eating are some of the most basic things that help your autonomic nervous system order itself.

 

I think you have already seen that serious insomnia is much more disturbing than TD. I really think the TD will eventually work itself out one way or the other, by stabilizing on or going quickly off Geodon--I have no experience to contribute there. Your biggest job is to stay calm. The healing is going to come from inside you. But many people have done this before you...you will make it through.

 

And again, wait for Alto. I am only guessing that this locus coeruleus issue is your problem right now.

[Meimeiquest]

Sorry, she wrote at the same time...ignore me

[Marsha]

Thank you so much Altostrata, meimei, and Liv-2-knit for your advice from experience, compassion and wisdom. I wouldn't make it without you. So I will keep calm and carry on. Isn't that what people in the UK have always said? No changes, keep everything the same. Settle down. Stabilize.

[Meimeiquest]

How are you doing today, Marsha?

[Marsha]

How are you doing today, Marsha?

meimei I'm doing everything you said to do. I'm not changing anything with my drugs. My doctor said to me today: "You probably have to take some kind of strong sleep medicine(s) indefinitely. Sometimes there really is an underlying disorder, such as panic, but any and every psychiatric disorder causes insomnia. So you may not be able to quit all meds." But I have a new doctor. So I won't be going back to my present doctor. I explained to him what had happened to me and explained to him much of what I have learned here and told him to read Robert Whitaker, Peter Breggin, David Healey and all the different websites. There were more psychiatrists i mentioned also. At least I gave him some food for thought. As for me, I am trying to hold on until I see the new doctor who I think finally will be able to help me. My CNS is very sensitive i really don't know what is going to happen to me. But my mind is stable and more clear now that I am at a low dose of geodon. I'm still considering just stopping it. And flying under the radar. I am going to get an ID bracelet stating "no dopamine-receptor blocking drugs" I am now in a position where I need to protect my very life.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Marsha,

 

Good on you for sticking up for yourself.  And for getting the word out.  Every little bit helps.  I'm not sure what you are considering stopping, but I would suggest careful consideration.  Patience is everything in this "game" - which is far from being a game!

 

All the best.  CC

[Marsha]

I have definitely found out that the insomnia is from the antipsychotic drug. It doesn't matter what I do to induce sleep. I doesn't matter how I taper sleep comes and goes. For some people the antipsychotic does something to your brain which causes insomnia. You don't get sleepy you just eventually black out for however many hours of sleep that you happen to end up with. There is no drug or herb or supplements that relieve it. Why should I keep torturing myself by taking this drug. I might as well get it over with and stop taking it. I saw it on Google. It's called tardive insomnia. The relief from the clonazepam is only temporary. Soon total insomnia will return. I want to be off the geodon and eventually sleep will come back. It's a catch-22. No sleep taking it, no sleep tapering it. I am going to have to do some more research.

[Altostrata]

Marsha, we are extremely familiar with drug-induced insomnia here.

 

I would interpret your intermittent sleep problems as being paradoxical effects from the combination of benzos and Geodon, plus as a result of drug changes. That is why they are intermittent.

 

I do not believe Geodon itself is causing the sleep problem. Rather, you are taking too many "brakes" at once. We see this often here. When people have sleep problems, they try to fix them by taking a cocktail of drugs for sleep, and then the problem gets worse because the nervous system doesn't like being clobbered and fights back.

 

The mentions of "tardive insomnia" you found come from a paper partially based on the case histories on this site. It is withdrawal insomnia. We know about it.

 

Your tapering off your drugs has never been easy. If you want to continue to go off, you may have to deal with sleepless nights, as many of us have had to do. You need to learn to manage your fears about this.

[Marsha]

I am very sorry to have to say this, but I feel that going off the geodon when the clonazepam stops putting me to sleep is the only option left for me. My family will not help with the expense of a doctor who may be able to help with the insomnia. So when the clonazepam stops working for sleep the severe no sleep insomnia caused by not just geodon but all the neuroleptics I feel this is a serious enough adverse reaction to require that I stop the geodon at whatever dose I happen to be on. If I stay on it i will go mad from 0 sleep that it causes or i can stop taking it and get by after a few weeks of complete insomnia on at least some sleep. I don't know what else to do.

[Altostrata]

It seems you are feeling somewhat self-destructive, Marsha. Why not continue to gradually taper off the Geodon?

[Marsha]

Marsha, we are extremely familiar with drug-induced insomnia here.

 

I would interpret your intermittent sleep problems as being paradoxical effects from the combination of benzos and Geodon, plus as a result of drug changes. That is why they are intermittent.

 

I do not believe Geodon itself is causing the sleep problem. Rather, you are taking too many "brakes" at once. We see this often here. When people have sleep problems, they try to fix them by taking a cocktail of drugs for sleep, and then the problem gets worse because the nervous system doesn't like being clobbered and fights back.

 

The mentions of "tardive insomnia" you found come from a paper partially based on the case histories on this site. It is withdrawal insomnia. We know about it.

 

Your tapering off your drugs has never been easy. If you want to continue to go off, you may have to deal with sleepless nights, as many of us have had to do. You need to learn to manage your fears about this.

Altostrata, I completely understand withdrawal insomnia. I understand what you are saying but the geodon did cause complete insomnia that's how I got put on trazodone but one of the many doctors I have seen tapered me off trazodone when I was at 80 mgs of geodon. I was switched back to clonazepam on December 8. I have not had a sleepless night since making the switch. How do I know when to taper again? Its been a month since I last dropped 10%. Please ignore my previous post. I was posting it when your post came in at the same time. Is it okay to taper right now? I am stable. Like you said, I am going to have to learn to deal with withdrawal insomnia. I went from doctors who tried to force me off librium to a doctor who is trying to cram every sleep drug there is down my throat. But he is the only one who will keep me on benzodiazepines while I taper off geodon. I don't know where to go.

[Altostrata]

It's up to you, Marsha. We know that when you make a drug change, you tend to get insomnia. If you reduce Geodon, are you able to handle a few nights of little sleep?

 

I think this is the decision you have to make regarding going off Geodon. It may not be painless as far as sleep is concerned. But you over-react every time you have a sleepless night. You need to decide if you can deal with it.

 

I've asked several times about the tardive dyskinesia symptoms, but got no answer. What is happening with that?

[Marsha]

It's up to you, Marsha. We know that when you make a drug change, you tend to get insomnia. If you reduce Geodon, are you able to handle a few nights of little sleep?

 

I think this is the decision you have to make regarding going off Geodon. It may not be painless as far as sleep is concerned. But you over-react every time you have a sleepless night. You need to decide if you can deal with it.

 

I've asked several times about the tardive dyskinesia symptoms, but got no answer. What is happening with that?

I can definitely handle a few nights of little sleep. The tardive dyskinesia remains. It manifests itself by involuntary jaw movement and clenching and finger tremors off and on. The jaw movement is there all the time. As far as the insomnia is concerned I thought the original insomnia I got several years ago from the geodon was coming back. At that time I want even tapering anything. So can you understand it's difficult for me to discern withdrawal insomnia from the original insomnia that got me put on trazodone. Does this make sense to you?

[Altostrata]

Your current state is not your state of 10 or 15 years ago.

[Marsha]

My doctor is going to switch me to a small dose of olanzepine increase the gabapentin to 1800 mgs and 4 mgs clonazepam. I stopped taking 40 mgs geodon on December 19 had withdrawal symptoms for three days and took 10 mgs of clonazepam last night so I could sleep. I feel defeated. I just want to die. I don't feel I will ever get off these drugs. I really don't want to keep living but I would never kill myself. I just feel very depressed. The 10 mgs of clonazepam took away all of the withdrawal symptoms from stopping the geodon but my doctor wouldn't prescribe 10 mgs. How much olanzepine should I take? I was on 40 mgs of geodon. Its been 5 days without it. I just feel so defeated.

[Marsha]

I don't want to take zyprexa. I will just die if I gain 100 lbs again. I want to stay off the geodon. And wait for sleep to return. But how long can I go without sleep. If only he would let me have the clonazepam. I am so depressed. Maybe I could take a little bit of geodon. But no i would have complete insomnia again. Maybe better to stay off. Where can I go? What can I do? I have tardive dyskenisia and my doctor refuses to keep me off antipsychotic drugs. I need to go to a hospital to get of antipsychotic drugs.

[Altostrata]

I would ask your doctor for a prescription for less clonazepam, to be taken on a regular basis.

 

Given you've had a bout of tardive dyskinesia, I would not take any antipsychotic for any reason, ever. I'm surprised your doctor wants to risk this.

 

Since you made your decision to go off Geodon as you have, you will have to cope with the withdrawal insomnia. Be patient. Many people have dealt with this. Over time, it will get less. See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

[Marsha]

I would ask your doctor for a prescription for less clonazepam, to be taken on a regular basis.

 

Given you've had a bout of tardive dyskinesia, I would not take any antipsychotic for any reason, ever. I'm surprised your doctor wants to risk this.

 

Since you made your decision to go off Geodon as you have, you will have to cope with the withdrawal insomnia. Be patient. Many people have dealt with this. Over time, it will get less. See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

reduce the clonazepam to 3 mgs? I have been taking 3 mgs since December 8.

[Marsha]

I would ask your doctor for a prescription for less clonazepam, to be taken on a regular basis.

 

Given you've had a bout of tardive dyskinesia, I would not take any antipsychotic for any reason, ever. I'm surprised your doctor wants to risk this.

 

Since you made your decision to go off Geodon as you have, you will have to cope with the withdrawal insomnia. Be patient. Many people have dealt with this. Over time, it will get less. See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

have been on three mgs since December 8 could I reduce to less than 3 mgs?

[Altostrata]

I meant less than 10mg clonazepam.

 

If you have been taking 3mg regularly, you will need to manage your clonazepam dosing. Please discuss here  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/29-members-only-benzo-tapering-discussion/
 

[Marsha]

I would ask your doctor for a prescription for less clonazepam, to be taken on a regular basis.

 

Given you've had a bout of tardive dyskinesia, I would not take any antipsychotic for any reason, ever. I'm surprised your doctor wants to risk this.

 

Since you made your decision to go off Geodon as you have, you will have to cope with the withdrawal insomnia. Be patient. Many people have dealt with this. Over time, it will get less. See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

I am experiencing crippling fear at night along with insomnia. How long can a person go without sleep before going mad. At night my face twitches and jaw movement and clenching. My thumbs and forefingers tremble off and on. Is this the tardive dyskinesia?

[Altostrata]

Marsha, please do not add to your symptoms with emotional anxiety. Probably about half the people on this site have had withdrawal insomnia. It can be grueling, but it is not fatal.

 

Uncontrollable movement is tardive dyskinesia. Please contact your doctor about this.

 

Do you have health anxiety in general?

[Marsha]

Marsha, please do not add to your symptoms with emotional anxiety. Probably about half the people on this site have had withdrawal insomnia. It can be grueling, but it is not fatal.

 

Uncontrollable movement is tardive dyskinesia. Please contact your doctor about this.

 

Do you have health anxiety in general?

I will do my very best not to let the fear take over. I have repeatedly informed my doctor about the tardive dyskinesia. He has ignored me and only texts me when he wants to put me on another drug. This time, incredibly he wanted me to take zyprexa another antipsychotic. I am afraid of him. I don't trust him. But he is the only one who will prescribe the clonazepam. I flat out told him I would not take zyprexa and again told him I have tardive dyskinesia. I think I might have to dump him and see the NP who prescribes clonazepam and try to get it for as long as I can and then go to the addiction doctor and have her help me get off the benzodiazepines. I used to be concerned about my health all the time. Not any more. I can't get an appointment at uc davis movement disorder clinic until march.

[Meimeiquest]

I'm guessing if you read this link and all the resources at the end, you will know more than any of those doctors about benzo tapering, sadly. Remember, when you are awake at night, you have many friends from SA awake with you

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10896-ashton-and-beyond-in-benzo-tapering/

[Marsha]

I'm guessing if you read this link and all the resources at the end, you will know more than any of those doctors about benzo tapering, sadly. Remember, when you are awake at night, you have many friends from SA awake with you

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10896-ashton-and-beyond-in-benzo-tapering/

thank you meimei. Had to reinstate geodon do to unbearable withdrawal. Instead of 40 mgs took 20 mgs and symptoms remitted shortly thereafter. Think it was psychosis. I will see if the geodon still causes insomnia at 20 mgs. If it does might have to switch to 2.5 mgs zyprexa for sleep. Then taper off that. Also have to begin clonazepam taper. Don't know what else to do.

[Altostrata]

Why do you have to taper clonazepam now?

 

Is it possible 10mg Geodon might be enough to reduce withdrawal and restore your sleep?