Estman: reducing Anafranil, withdrawal symptoms

[ChessieCat]

  You might try an elimination diet.

 

Sometimes it is quicker to start with a restricted diet and then introduce a new food one at a time.

 

Many years ago, unrelated to ADs or WD, I had to do a food challenge and had to go on a restricted diet leading up to the challenges.  And it can be very hard to do.  But for me it was worth the effort.  I suggest that you look for online forums / support groups which might provide information and support whilst you go through this process.  Obviously they will probably not have much / any knowledge of ADWD but I think it would help to discuss your dietary situation and receive support and encouragement from people who understand how hard it can be to work out what food/s are causing issues.

[Estman]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:21 AM, ChessieCat said:

  You might try an elimination diet.

 

Sometimes it is quicker to start with a restricted diet and then introduce a new food one at a time.

 

Many years ago, unrelated to ADs or WD, I had to do a food challenge and had to go on a restricted diet leading up to the challenges.  And it can be very hard to do.  But for me it was worth the effort.  I suggest that you look for online forums / support groups which might provide information and support whilst you go through this process.  Obviously they will probably not have much / any knowledge of ADWD but I think it would help to discuss your dietary situation and receive support and encouragement from people who understand how hard it can be to work out what food/s are causing issues.

Hi Chessie,

 

 

 

Digestion has improved now that I have taken probiotics and am also not eat milk and milk products
I am a little worried about the fact that some write about their heavy waves even 5 years after the last dose.

 

I have read here that some people have a relapse and a severe wave even about 5 years after stopping all drugs
Is it a cold turkey phenomenon that the waves appear years after weaning?
If I reduce the dose of my medicine by about 5% per month, can I expect to recover faster later?
In short, are there any advantages to slow withdrawal other than stopping all drugs?

[ChessieCat]

Cold Turkey and Too-Fast Tapers

 

Please read the above post. 

 

And read these:

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves:

 

And

 

On 8/6/2011 at 6:43 AM, Altostrata said:

The 10% taper recommendation is a harm reduction approach to going off psychiatric drugs. While it is not a guarantee you will have trouble-free withdrawal, we believe this conservative tapering method will cause harm to the fewest number of people.

 

And this video:

 

Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

 

I think the question you should ask yourself is, do you want to take the risk???

 

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

And I think this one explains is very simply.

 

  

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

[Estman]

6 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Cold Turkey and Too-Fast Tapers

 

Please read the above post. 

 

And read these:

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves:

 

And

 

 

And this video:

 

Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

 

I think the question you should ask yourself is, do you want to take the risk???

 

 

 

 

 

Very good information!
It seems that drug removal and recovery still take about 5 years
If you move quickly, the symptoms and waves will just last longer and be more severe
It's just that sometimes it's tempting to think that if you stop taking the drug, the recovery will suddenly speed up
It seems that this is not the case.
I will definitely continue with small steps, max 5% at a time

[Estman]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:21 AM, ChessieCat said:

  You might try an elimination diet.

 

Sometimes it is quicker to start with a restricted diet and then introduce a new food one at a time.

 

Many years ago, unrelated to ADs or WD, I had to do a food challenge and had to go on a restricted diet leading up to the challenges.  And it can be very hard to do.  But for me it was worth the effort.  I suggest that you look for online forums / support groups which might provide information and support whilst you go through this process.  Obviously they will probably not have much / any knowledge of ADWD but I think it would help to discuss your dietary situation and receive support and encouragement from people who understand how hard it can be to work out what food/s are causing issues.

Hi,

I have been taking Digest Spectrum for about 4-5 days.
I have also had neck inflammation or radiculitis for the last 8 days
I was in different hotels for 4 days and just got home
It's strange, but for the last 3 days it has been somehow strange to urinate.
There is an urge to urinate constantly, especially today it has worsened.
I took one probiotic after lunch (I ate a wrap at the gas station) and also 1 Digest Spectrum
An hour later, the feeling of having to urinate immediately is very unpleasant.
But this feeling did not ease after going to the toilet
I wonder if it could be a cystitis or digestive enzymes also cause such symptoms?
The day before yesterday and the day before yesterday when I went to a restaurant, I also took this enzyme and later I had a heavy feeling in my stomach and a feeling as if diarrhea would occur immediately.
Can there be an interaction with Clomipramine?

[ChessieCat]

It's easy to do a search on the internet for side effects.  Just use the term:  Digest Spectrum side effects

 

From https://www.livestrong.com/article/327136-digestive-enzyme-supplement-side-effects/

 

Please read ALL of the following:

 

Digestive Enzymes' Side Effects

Digestive enzymes are considered to be fairly safe and have minimal side effects. Nonprescription and prescription digestive enzymes can produce gastrointestinal side effects, like nausea, diarrhea, constipation and other stomach issues.

An August 2014 article from the Mayo Clinic News Network featured an interview with Brent Bauer, MD, director of the Mayo Clinic Complementary and Integrative Medicine Program, who stated, "Fortunately, for most over-the-counter enzymes, unless you're taking super-high doses, the risks are pretty minimal. Some people get gastrointestinal upset or some irritation."

Dr. Bauer was one of the authors from the Mayo Clinic Proceedings study discussing nonprescription digestive enzyme supplements. This study also reported other potential digestive enzymes' side effects, including:

• Allergic reactions (anaphylactic shock) from the enzyme chymotrypsin.
• Pain and burning sensations from the enzyme trypsin.
• Gastritis, esophageal issues and allergic reactions from the enzyme papain.
• Gastrointestinal issues, like cramping and diarrhea, as well as allergic reactions from the enzyme bromelain.

Reportedly, these side effects are fairly rare. However, digestive enzymes' side effects may increase if you're taking a certain medication. Bromelain, for instance, has the potential to interact with antibiotics like amoxicillin, and anticoagulant and antiplatelet drugs. This interaction could be dangerous because it may affect your body's ability to coagulate blood, and thereby increase your risk of bleeding.

Digestive enzymes' side effects can also be severe if you consume excessive amounts. For instance, consumption of too much papain can cause esophageal tears, while raw papain is an irritant and can cause blisters.

Digestive enzyme supplements are not for everyone. Even medically prescribed enzyme supplements have the potential to cause side effects.

In general, if your digestive enzymes' side effects are severe or don't go away within a few days, you may want to stop taking them. You can try products from other manufacturers; not all digestive enzyme supplements are made in the same way, but it's best to consult your doctor or nutritionist about the best next steps to take. As Dr. Bauer says, "If it's not working, don't just keep taking more and hoping for something magical to happen."

 

[Estman]

15 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

It's easy to do a search on the internet for side effects.  Just use the term:  Digest Spectrum side effects

 

From https://www.livestrong.com/article/327136-digestive-enzyme-supplement-side-effects/

 

Please read ALL of the following:

 

Digestive Enzymes' Side Effects

Digestive enzymes are considered to be fairly safe and have minimal side effects. Nonprescription and prescription digestive enzymes can produce gastrointestinal side effects, like nausea, diarrhea, constipation and other stomach issues.

An August 2014 article from the Mayo Clinic News Network featured an interview with Brent Bauer, MD, director of the Mayo Clinic Complementary and Integrative Medicine Program, who stated, "Fortunately, for most over-the-counter enzymes, unless you're taking super-high doses, the risks are pretty minimal. Some people get gastrointestinal upset or some irritation."

Dr. Bauer was one of the authors from the Mayo Clinic Proceedings study discussing nonprescription digestive enzyme supplements. This study also reported other potential digestive enzymes' side effects, including:

• Allergic reactions (anaphylactic shock) from the enzyme chymotrypsin.
• Pain and burning sensations from the enzyme trypsin.
• Gastritis, esophageal issues and allergic reactions from the enzyme papain.
• Gastrointestinal issues, like cramping and diarrhea, as well as allergic reactions from the enzyme bromelain.

Reportedly, these side effects are fairly rare. However, digestive enzymes' side effects may increase if you're taking a certain medication. Bromelain, for instance, has the potential to interact with antibiotics like amoxicillin, and anticoagulant and antiplatelet drugs. This interaction could be dangerous because it may affect your body's ability to coagulate blood, and thereby increase your risk of bleeding.

Digestive enzymes' side effects can also be severe if you consume excessive amounts. For instance, consumption of too much papain can cause esophageal tears, while raw papain is an irritant and can cause blisters.

Digestive enzyme supplements are not for everyone. Even medically prescribed enzyme supplements have the potential to cause side effects.

In general, if your digestive enzymes' side effects are severe or don't go away within a few days, you may want to stop taking them. You can try products from other manufacturers; not all digestive enzyme supplements are made in the same way, but it's best to consult your doctor or nutritionist about the best next steps to take. As Dr. Bauer says, "If it's not working, don't just keep taking more and hoping for something magical to happen."

 

Hi ,

I went to the emergency room today and the scan showed one kidney stone in the urinary tract.
There was some blood in the urine sample.
It is small, about 2.5 mm. Hopefully, it will show itself how much liquid I drink.
Apparently, this caused frequent urination.
Are antidepressants somehow related to kidney stones?

 

[ChessieCat]

9 hours ago, Estman said:

Are antidepressants somehow related to kidney stones?

 

No idea.  And to be honest I don't think it would be possible to do an accurate study on this.

 

And even it there is a relation, there is nothing you can do about your past use of psychiatric drugs.

 

I'm glad that you went and got it checked and at least now you know what is causing some of your issues.  Brassmonkey had a kidney stone a few years ago. 

 

Here's a link to posts he has made about kidney stone:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?&q=kidney stone&author=brassmonkey

[ChessieCat]

If you are given any drugs, please research BEFORE taking them.  Be aware that of the following:

 

VIDEO WARNING about Fluoroquinolones:  moxifloxacin, ciprofloxacin, ciprofloxacin extended release, gemifloxacin, levofloxacin and ofloxacin

Antibiotics with the WORST Side Effects (Dangerous Antibiotics) Fluoroquinolones

Youtube video by KenDBerryMD

For transcript of this video please click this link

 

 

 

SA's topic:  cipro-levaquin-azithromycin-z-pack-and-other-antibiotics

 

 

 

[Estman]

7 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

No idea.  And to be honest I don't think it would be possible to do an accurate study on this.

 

And even it there is a relation, there is nothing you can do about your past use of psychiatric drugs.

 

I'm glad that you went and got it checked and at least now you know what is causing some of your issues.  Brassmonkey had a kidney stone a few years ago. 

 

Here's a link to posts he has made about kidney stone:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?&q=kidney stone&author=brassmonkey

Thank you!
The  the study showed that initially there is no need for an antibiotic because there is not much inflammation.
But  pain in the urinary tract and very strange urination.
Unfortunately, this has again caused a big anxiety attack that was not there before.
I also tried taking Drotaverine twice but it seems like it caused an itchy rash and nausea.
Maybe even more anxiety than that
I hope that if I drink a lot of medicinal tea, maybe it will come out soon.

[Estman]

On 7/30/2022 at 2:43 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

No idea.  And to be honest I don't think it would be possible to do an accurate study on this.

 

And even it there is a relation, there is nothing you can do about your past use of psychiatric drugs.

 

I'm glad that you went and got it checked and at least now you know what is causing some of your issues.  Brassmonkey had a kidney stone a few years ago. 

 

Here's a link to posts he has made about kidney stone:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?&q=kidney stone&author=brassmonkey

Hi,

Will drinking lots of water and herbal tea wash out the clomipramine?
I put my powder on my tongue once a day and drink water.
I have been drinking a lot the last few days due to this kidney stone.
I have been drinking about 2-3 times more than before
But for the second night in a row, the sleep is extremely bad and painful.
Like when you have a fever but you didn't have one.
I repeatedly woke up with a nightmare and a fast pulse
Yesterday, during the first part of the day, there was also pain in the urethra, but in the evening it was gone, maybe the stone is moving on.
In the afternoon yesterday, I had severe nausea and felt very ill.
In the evening when I went to sleep it was relatively normal again, there was no pain anywhere and I was not nauseous either.
I woke up a few hours later feeling very sick again.
I then took one Paracetamol. Later I had extremely bad sleep.
Sometimes at the beginning of the wave there has also been such an anxious sleep all night.
But then there has not been such a general sick feeling.
Maybe related to that kidney stone though.
Has been on the same dose of clomipramine for the past 32 days.

[ChessieCat]

13 minutes ago, Estman said:

Will drinking lots of water and herbal tea wash out the clomipramine?

 

I don't think you need to worry about this.  If you are concerned about this, then you could try taking your dose and then wait 1 hour before you start drinking more water.

 

If you feel like any symptoms are withdrawal symptoms, it is probably because your body is very stressed at this time.  Just like when you have a virus your withdrawal symptoms can get worse.  Many members experience waves when they are sick.  Some members post that they get waves when they return from a holiday.

 

 

[Estman]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:05 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

I don't think you need to worry about this.  If you are concerned about this, then you could try taking your dose and then wait 1 hour before you start drinking more water.

 

If you feel like any symptoms are withdrawal symptoms, it is probably because your body is very stressed at this time.  Just like when you have a virus your withdrawal symptoms can get worse.  Many members experience waves when they are sick.  Some members post that they get waves when they return from a holiday.

 

 

Yes, it seems so
The kidney stone doesn't hurt anymore, it's probably passed out
I have been drinking a lot of water the past few days.
But unfortunately it triggered another heavy wave for me the day before yesterday
In the evening I had strong compulsions and fears that I could not control
It escalated into immense depression and despair
Like some kind of anxiety and sometimes suicidal thoughts
Can't fall asleep.
In great agony, half a tablet of Levomepromazine was taken at night to sleep.
The previous two nights were very confusing nightmares
I don't want to take other things, neither sedatives nor antipsychotics.
I have sometimes taken it once in extreme cases so that I could fall asleep and the horror would end.
At the same time, there is a frenzy of agitation-restlessness and depression and despair.
Can't think logically or focus much on other things.
Unfortunately, this Levomepromazine makes you feel very drowsy the next day, the confusion increases. Unfortunately, it doesn't take away the compulsions either, it just forces you to sleep for a while
Yesterday I had diarrhea again and since then I have had very nasty agitation with the urge to vomit.
It's not directly related to digestion because I eat moderately and don't eat things that could provoke.
Do other people have such nights of despair during the wave?
I think that the compulsions and fears are so strong that they cannot switch off?
I've been on the same dose for 35 days and the spasms are frustrating, especially after coming back from a trip.
 

[Estman]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:05 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

I don't think you need to worry about this.  If you are concerned about this, then you could try taking your dose and then wait 1 hour before you start drinking more water.

 

If you feel like any symptoms are withdrawal symptoms, it is probably because your body is very stressed at this time.  Just like when you have a virus your withdrawal symptoms can get worse.  Many members experience waves when they are sick.  Some members post that they get waves when they return from a holiday.

 

 

I have been drinking a lot of herbal tea for 5 days.
For the last three or four days, the wave has been there again
Yesterday I had very nasty constant nausea and restlessness-agitation.
There was also total insomnia at night
Checked that the ingredient of herbal tea was St. John's wort (about 25%)
Could it be that it is somehow incompatible with clomipramine and causes withdrawal symptoms and especially nausea?
I didn't know herbal tea contained it.

[ChessieCat]

1 minute ago, Estman said:

Checked that the ingredient of herbal tea was St. John's wort (about 25%)

 

It would be hard to know how much SJW you have ingested in a herbal tea.

 

st-johns-wort-hypericum-perforatum

 

[ChessieCat]

From https://reference.medscape.com/drug-interactionchecker

• St John's Wort + clomipramine

  St John's Wort will decrease the level or effect of clomipramine by affecting hepatic/intestinal enzyme CYP3A4 metabolism.

[Estman]

3 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

From https://reference.medscape.com/drug-interactionchecker

• St John's Wort + clomipramine

  St John's Wort will decrease the level or effect of clomipramine by affecting hepatic/intestinal enzyme CYP3A4 metabolism.

Then it looks like I've tapered off the Clomipramine and the withdrawal symptoms are from it?
I have been on the same dose of Clomipramine for exactly 36 days

[ChessieCat]

We really don't know what has happened.  If it were me I would be trying hard not to worry about it, because you cannot change what has happened.

 

If  the herbal tea has caused you to be taking a slightly smaller dose of clomipramine there is now way to know how much difference there was.

 

I think it would be better to stop using that particular herbal tea and just hold on your current clomipramine dose until you are stable.

 

And remember that it might have nothing to do with the tea, it might just be from the kidney stone and everything your body has been trying to cope with recently.

 

I think you also started a probiotic as well???

[Estman]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

We really don't know what has happened.  If it were me I would be trying hard not to worry about it, because you cannot change what has happened.

 

If  the herbal tea has caused you to be taking a slightly smaller dose of clomipramine there is now way to know how much difference there was.

 

I think it would be better to stop using that particular herbal tea and just hold on your current clomipramine dose until you are stable.

 

And remember that it might have nothing to do with the tea, it might just be from the kidney stone and everything your body has been trying to cope with recently.

 

I think you also started a probiotic as well???

Yes, I will no longer take this herbal tea from today
I have been taking probiotics for the past two weeks.
I found out today that some probiotics increase histamine levels
Parts had to lower it.
I am in contact with a nutritionist
I will try to hold on until it stabilizes again.
It makes me sad that you have to endure such waves for years and you can't move faster.
As you can see, other things can also trigger a wave

[savinggrace]

I agree with Chessie that elimination diets are probably the gold standard in detecting food sensitivities.  In my case, I could not determine which food was safe enough to start with; in other words, all foods were suspect for me.

 

The fact that you question if it is gluten or dairy intolerance, though, suggests that you have not tried eliminating gluten and/or dairy from your diet.

 

Both are very high inflammatory foods.  It may seem over-whelming, but going gluten-free really isn't that hard these days.  There are so many good alternatives and it easily becomes a way of life.  The only problem with dairy free is that you must get calcium from supplements and/or other foods.  Otherwise, going dairy-free is not that bad either.

 

I have been both gluten and dairy free for 10 years.  If this is over-whelming, choose one to eliminate first and see if that makes a difference.  Give it 3 weeks.  If no difference try the other and then both at the same time. (because if they are both problems you will not see an improvement when you eliminate just gluten or just dairy.   I would consider adding soy to this list as well.

 

Grace

[Estman]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:49 AM, ChessieCat said:

We really don't know what has happened.  If it were me I would be trying hard not to worry about it, because you cannot change what has happened.

 

If  the herbal tea has caused you to be taking a slightly smaller dose of clomipramine there is now way to know how much difference there was.

 

I think it would be better to stop using that particular herbal tea and just hold on your current clomipramine dose until you are stable.

 

And remember that it might have nothing to do with the tea, it might just be from the kidney stone and everything your body has been trying to cope with recently.

 

I think you also started a probiotic as well???

I have some questions:

I am currently taking one probiotic.
I will soon be on another probiotic that was supposed to lower histamine levels.
I did some physical work the day before yesterday and the day before yesterday
I tried not to exert myself too much, but I was still very tired yesterday afternoon
I tried to sleep in the afternoon, but I couldn't, my pulse was very fast for several hours.
I felt very tired and exhausted
At the same time, the legs and arms were weak and aching
In addition, there was great anxiety because of this great fatigue because it was excruciating.
In the evening, I ate one poached egg, tomato and two curd cakes
Later in the evening, still great restlessness, also severe fatigue
It's strange that this severe fatigue occurred after lunch
I didn't eat too much heavy stuff.
Last night I could hardly sleep, I woke up every now and then
Sleep was disturbed.
Why is it that after about 3-4 hours of normal physical work, such exhaustion and a fast pulse occur?
Does exertion raise serotonin or dopamine levels too high?
Or could it be a matter of histamine?
The day before yesterday and yesterday morning I took a small dose of B12 to raise my low levels.
Today I tried to rest and sleep during the day, but I can't because I still have a fast pulse (about 90-95 beats per minute) at rest and a feeling of exhaustion.
I don't have any other diseases at the moment, is this a withdrawal symptom?
but it has already been 44 days since the last dose change.
Does this rapid fatigue-exhaustion ever go away or is it permanent damage?

[Estman]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:49 AM, ChessieCat said:

We really don't know what has happened.  If it were me I would be trying hard not to worry about it, because you cannot change what has happened.

 

If  the herbal tea has caused you to be taking a slightly smaller dose of clomipramine there is now way to know how much difference there was.

 

I think it would be better to stop using that particular herbal tea and just hold on your current clomipramine dose until you are stable.

 

And remember that it might have nothing to do with the tea, it might just be from the kidney stone and everything your body has been trying to cope with recently.

 

I think you also started a probiotic as well???

   https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0?utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&

 

Interesting article:
how do withdrawal symptoms occur if antidepressants do not cure anything?

 

 

[ChessieCat]

27 minutes ago, Estman said:

how do withdrawal symptoms occur if antidepressants do not cure anything?

 

Note that this has nothing to do with a person having a (existing before taking a drug) chemical imbalance.  The drug actually causes a chemical imbalance and the brain adjusts so that the chemical/hormones etc are balanced - this is called homeostasis; a self regulating process.  That is why you can get start up side effects that reduce the longer you are on the drug. 

 

When we add a chemical (drug) to the brain it (the brain) makes changes to accommodate the chemical (balance things out).  When we take the chemical away the brain has to make changes (again, to balance things out).  If we take it away slowly the brain only has to make small and/or fewer changes.  If the chemical is taken away in a large amount or stopped altogether the brain has to make large and/or more changes.  It is the brain making those changes which cause the withdrawal symptoms.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by ChessieCat

[Estman]

2 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Note that this has nothing to do with a person having a (existing before taking a drug) chemical imbalance.  The drug actually causes a chemical imbalance and the brain adjusts so that the chemical/hormones etc are balanced - this is called homeostasis; a self regulating process.  That is why you can get start up side effects that reduce the longer you are on the drug. 

 

When we add a chemical (drug) to the brain it (the brain) makes changes to accommodate the chemical (balance things out).  When we take the chemical away the brain has to make changes (again, to balance things out).  If we take it away slowly the brain only has to make small and/or fewer changes.  If the chemical is taken away in a large amount or stopped altogether the brain has to make large and/or more changes.  It is the brain making those changes which cause the withdrawal symptoms.

 

Yes.
All the doctors I have talked to say that antidepressants cure and must be taken for life.
And when I try to tell them that withdrawal symptoms occur even with a small change in quantity, they don't believe me
Again this talk of chemical imbalance and like the disease comes back.
What is the reason for feeling better a few months after starting an antidepressant?
And later the effect seems to disappear?
What does it mean that if I reduce clomipramine, there will be a cholinergic rebound?
Does this mean that the brain produces too much acetylcholine?
And with it too much histamine?
At present, the disturbing symptom is great fatigue
Even if I work light and for half a day, after lunch I get a fast heart rate and sudden fatigue for several hours
The arms and legs also seem somehow weak
Is this rapid fatigue also a withdrawal symptom?
Is there any hope that one day strength and energy will be restored?
 

[Ariel]

@Estman

 

2 hours ago, Estman said:

Is this rapid fatigue also a withdrawal symptom?

 

Fatigue is a common WD symptom. 

SA site search for "fatigue":

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q=fatigue&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_in=titles

 

Muscle fatigue, muscle weakness are also WD symptoms:

 

2 hours ago, Estman said:

Is there any hope that one day strength and energy will be restored?

 

Do you ever read the success stories of people who have healed?

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forum/28-success-stories-recovery-from-psychiatric-drug-withdrawal/

 

[Estman]

15 hours ago, Ariel said:

@Estman

 

 

Fatigue is a common WD symptom. 

SA site search for "fatigue":

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q=fatigue&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_in=titles

 

Muscle fatigue, muscle weakness are also WD symptoms:

 

 

Do you ever read the success stories of people who have healed?

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forum/28-success-stories-recovery-from-psychiatric-drug-withdrawal/

 

Thanks!,

Is Forskalin a Nootropic?
Can it cause certain symptoms?
I tried one capsule yesterday morning.
There has been a lot of fatigue in the last few days
Yesterday evening, however, the fatigue even increased, and at the same time, the weakness of the arms and legs was very disturbing.
Even today, there is still a general nasty weakness in the head and weakness in the limbs
I usually don't have these symptoms for that long
Or does it affect the fact that there is a full moon and a magnetic field?

[ChessieCat]

3 minutes ago, Estman said:

Is Forskalin a Nootropic?

 

Q:  Have you done a search on the internet for information about this?

[Estman]

5 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Q:  Have you done a search on the internet for information about this?

I have but do not understand it.
Since tapering the tricyclic clomipramine is known to cause cholinergic rebound, I wanted to try something that would alleviate this.
I have understood that the choline energy backlash is specific to tricyclic substances
I understand that to put it simply, the level of acetylcholine is too high
Of the natural substances, acetylcholine should be reduced by Forskalin and Alpha-Lipoic acid
I have both and decided to try Forskalin yesterday.
I don't know if the muscle weakness and extreme fatigue is related to it
I don't know if it can also cause increased restlessness

[Estman]

29 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Q:  Have you done a search on the internet for information about this?

I found such a text, but ...

his study attempted to determine all-natural forskolin’s ability to reduce anxiety compared to pharmaceutical benzodiazepines and similar GABA-based substances that can cause dependence, withdrawal and tolerance complications. Mice were subjected to the elevated-plus maze and light/dark box tests to measure the effectiveness of forskolin on anxiety and the information was compared to that of Diazepam. The plasma of the mice was also measured for cAMP levels. Forskolin produced significant anti-anxiety activity in both unstressed and stressed mice, while Diazepam only produced significant anti-anxiety activity in unstressed mice. In addition to the anti-anxiety effects of forskolin, researchers noted a significant elevation of cAMP plasma levels that was not present with Diazepam.

Researchers concluded that, “findings contribute to suggest a non–receptor mediated anti-anxiety action of a forskolin, acting through cAMP elevation, thus avoiding receptor-mediated adverse effect profile of the conventional anxiolytics.”8

 

Researchers concluded, “Forskolin is suggested to enhance cerebral blood flow and to facilitate memory function through the action of increased cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP).”9
Forskolin seems to have strong antidepressive effects similar to pharmaceutical tricyclic antidepressants.

Researchers studied the antidepressant activity of forskolin and a novel water soluble forskolin analog (NKH477) in rats using the forced swimming test. At doses of 0.01 mg/kg, forskolin decreased ratings of immobility similar to 15 mg/kg of amitriptyline. 0.01 mg is 150 times more potent than 15 mg amitriptyline. Chronic administration of NKH477 at doses of 0.5 to 1.5 mg/kg significantly decreased the duration of immobility.

Researchers concluded, “These data indicate that both forskolin and NKH477 have strong antidepressive potency, consistent with the hypothesis that elevation of the cAMP cascade system may have an important role in antidepressive effects.”10

[Altostrata]

@Estman after 2 years and 10 pages of comments, I'm tired of answering your questions.

 

As you've been told before, we cannot advise you on drug experiments.

 

On 2/26/2022 at 11:51 AM, Altostrata said:

 

The withdrawal syndrome from tricyclics such as Anafranil probably does have a cholinergic rebound component, as these drugs are anti-cholinergic while the newer antidepressants (except for paroxetine) are not.

 

Some antihistamines are anti-cholinergic and also have rebound syndromes when abruptly discontinued (e.g. cetirizine). Diphenhydramine is often used to address withdrawal symptoms; it is also an over-the-counter sleep aid.

 

If you want to experiment with drug treatment for antidepressant withdrawal, please see a doctor and report results here.

 

 

You're still taking Anafranil in the afternoon correct? And your symptoms increase after you take it? As explained to you before, that probably is an adverse effect of Anafranil, not a withdrawal symptom.

 

If you reduce your Anafranil dosage by tapering, it is likely the adverse effect will decrease.

 

If you want to continue to take Anafranil for the rest of your life, feel free to do so.

[Estman]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

@Estman after 2 years and 10 pages of comments, I'm tired of answering your questions.

 

As you've been told before, we cannot advise you on drug experiments.

 

 

You're still taking Anafranil in the afternoon correct? And your symptoms increase after you take it? As explained to you before, that probably is an adverse effect of Anafranil, not a withdrawal symptom.

 

If you reduce your Anafranil dosage by tapering, it is likely the adverse effect will decrease.

 

If you want to continue to take Anafranil for the rest of your life, feel free to do so.

Why do you attack me all the time?
I'm not doing any experiments on purpose
I continue to expect your support, but not criticism that I'm doing it wrong all the time
I also want to continue to give up Anafranil completely, otherwise I wouldn't be here
I just want him does the cholinergic rebound create too much acetylcholine in the brain?
Is it yes or no?
I just wanted to find some kind of food supplement that would relieve it or reduce the acetylcholine level.
It seems that it is not found though
To reduce histamine, I have changed my diet and use a probiotic that I think helps.

Peace!

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, Estman said:

I'm not doing any experiments on purpose

 

The following (Folskalin) IS a drug experiment which you decided to try.  There may be a language issue with the use of the word "purpose".  But deciding to try something is "on purpose" or deliberate because you have chosen to do it.

 

And you have also bought alpha-lipoic acid so you have decided that you might try it as well, which will also be a drug experiment "on purpose".

 

SA is a site for tapering psychiatric drugs; we do not know what might happen if/when you take these type of supplements.  You try these at your own risk.

 

22 hours ago, Estman said:

Forskalin and Alpha-Lipoic acid
I have both and decided to try Forskalin yesterday.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by ChessieCat

[Estman]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

The following (Folskalin) IS a drug experiment which you decided to try.  There may be a language issue with the use of the word "purpose".  But deciding to try something is "on purpose" or deliberate because you have chosen to do it.

 

And you have also bought alpha-lipoic acid so you have decided that you might try it as well, which will also be a drug experiment "on purpose".

 

SA is a site for tapering psychiatric drugs; we do not know what might happen if/when you take these type of supplements.  You try these at your own risk.

 

 

 

Sure, I can't take any food supplements then.
It's a pity that there is not much information about weaning off a tricyclic antidepressant
Most people here use modern medicine
What is cholinergic rebound?
Is it related only to acetylcholine or also to serotonin, dopamine and histamine?
Characteristic of all antidepressants or only tricyclics?
If I understood it more, it would be easier to move forward

[ChessieCat]

14 minutes ago, Estman said:

It's a pity that there is not much information about weaning off a tricyclic antidepressant

 

Just like other psychiatric drugs, the suggested taper method is to reduce by no more than 10% of the current dose with a hold of at least 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

It is also important to listen to your body/symptoms and to not make another reduction until you are stable.

 

Alto posted this yesterday:

 

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You're still taking Anafranil in the afternoon correct? And your symptoms increase after you take it? As explained to you before, that probably is an adverse effect of Anafranil, not a withdrawal symptom.

 

If you reduce your Anafranil dosage by tapering, it is likely the adverse effect will decrease.

 

From https://www.drugs.com/sfx/anafranil-side-effects.html

 

Common side effects of Anafranil include: constipation, dizziness, drowsiness, dyspepsia, ejaculatory disorder, fatigue, headache, insomnia, myoclonus, nausea, nervousness, paresthesia, tremor, urination disorder, visual disturbance, weight gain, anorexia, diaphoresis, and xerostomia. Other side effects include: anxiety, fever, hot flash, hypertonia, memory impairment, muscle twitching, non-puerperal lactation, orthostatic hypotension, pruritus, skin rash, sleep disorder, tachycardia, tinnitus, vomiting, flushing, and taste disorder. See below for a comprehensive list of adverse effects. (Go to above link).

[ChessieCat]

And just repeating this to make sure that you see it.

 

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If you reduce your Anafranil dosage by tapering, it is likely the adverse effect will decrease.