tiredtess: venlafaxine / Effexor

[tiredtess]

Hello, I have taken many months to taper off what i consider this evil drug. I have been off it now for approx 2 weeks but i am still experiencing "Brain Zaps". I am  very tired. have memory worries, very itchy, sore in corner of mouth and a lot of "aches and pains" and more.

how long does it take to feel relief from it all?

I have been on other anti depressants for about 40yrs and i am wondering if my body will be unable to function without them

T

[tiredtess]

#does age make a difference to recovery?

[ChessieCat]

Hi tess and welcome to SA,

 

Brain zaps are a withdrawal symptom which means that you reduced/stopped the drug too quickly.

 

The only known way to reduce withdrawal symptoms is to reinstate the drug.  If you stopped the drug 2 weeks ago you are still in the time frame when reinstatement has a good chance of being successul.

 

Please note:  Do not return to the previous dose you were taking because it might be too much and could make things worse.  We can suggest a dose to take but we need more information.

 

Please create your drug signature.  We need to know details for the last 2 years.  Drugs name, doses and the date you took the new dose.  Anything before that can just be a summary.  This explains what we need:

 

please-summarize-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature

 

This link goes straight to your own signature.  Remember to Save.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

Please also tell us what sort of venlafaxine you are using.  Effexor brand has tiny beads in a capsule, some generics have a few discs inside a capsule.

 

I will give you some links to information which you should read.  

 

Please read Post #1 of these 2 topics:

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

tips-for-tapering-off-effexor-and-effexor-xr-venlafaxine

 

We understand that some members can be reluctant to start taking the drug again after stopping it.  My own experience was that I reduced my Pristiq (desvenlaxine, a "relative" of venlafaxine) by 50%, suffered extreme cog fog for 2 weeks and then was unable to type.  Being a professional typist I knew that something wasn't right and SA suggested increasing my dose.  When I couldn't type, I took extra Pristiq and about 4 hours later I was able to type again.  I had  bench mark so knew it was the drug and not placebo.  Since then I have been successfully tapering following SA's guidelines.

 

This might help you understand what is happening.  It's important to understand that it has nothing to do with how strong you are as a person.  Your brain has become physiologically (not physically) dependent on the drug.

 

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

This is something I posted somewhere else and then saved. I know it's all stuff I've said before, but it bears repeating and further discussion. A lot of people, including healthcare practitioners; in fact, I guess, most people-- are operating from entirely the wrong paradigm, or way of thinking, about these meds. They're thinking of them like aspirin--as something that has an effect when it's in your system, and then when it gets out of your system the effect goes away.

 

That's not what happens with medications that alter neurotransmitter function, we are learning. What happens when you change the chemistry of the brain is, the brain adjusts its chemistry and structure to try to return to homeostasis, or biochemical and functional balance. It tries to restabilize the chemistry. For example: SSRI antidepressants work as "serotonin reuptake inhibitors." That is, they cause serotonin to remain in the space between neurons, rather than being taken back up into the cells to be re-used, like it would be in a normal healthy nondrugged brain. So the brain, which wants to re-establish normal signaling and function, adapts to the higher level of serotonin between neurons (in the "synapse", the space between neurons where signals get passed along).

 

It does this by removing serotonin receptors, so that the signal is reduced and changed to something closer to normal. It also decreases the amount of serotonin it produces overall. To do that, genes have to be turned on and off; new proteins have to be made; whole cascades of chemical reactions have to be changed, which means turning on and off OTHER genes; cells are destroyed, new cells are made; in other words, a complex physiologic remodeling takes place. This takes place over time. The brain does not grow and change rapidly. This is a vast oversimplification of the amount of adaptation that takes place in the brain when we change its normal chemistry, but that's the principle.

 

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

With multiple drugs and a history of drug changes and cold turkeys, all of this becomes even more complicated. And if a person is started on these kinds of drugs at an early age before the brain has ever completely established normal mature functioning--well, it can't be good. (All of which is why I recommend an extremely slow taper particularly to anyone with a multiple drug history, a history of many years on meds, a history of past cold turkeys or frequent med changes, and a history of being put on drugs at a young age.)

 

This isn't intended to scare people, but hopefully to give you some idea of what's happening, and to help you respect and understand the process so you can work with it; ALSO, because you are likely to encounter many, many people who still believe these drugs work kind of like aspirin, or a glass of wine, and all you need to do is stop and get it out of your system. Now you can explain to them that no, getting it out of your system is not the issue; the issue is, you need to regrow or at least remodel your brain. This is a long, slow, very poorly understood process, and it needs to be respected.

 

 

[tiredtess]

I really can't reinstate, I would rather give up. It has taken me months from 37.5 to get to nothing. I took mini tabs out and reduced, I cut and quartered them  until nothing. Of all the drugs these have been the worse to come off. My GP and Psychiatrist recommended a three week tapering plan that included taking every other day which I did not follow but they will not believe me when i tell them how difficult it is. I feel very alone with it

[ChessieCat]

We understand that members can be reluctant to take the drug again.  It sounds like you have tapered in a better way than what the doctors suggested, however the fact that you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms means that your brain still needs some of the drug.

 

The decision is entirely up to you.  We like to make sure that members have the necessary information so that they can make an informed decision.

 

Because it's only been 2 weeks since your last dose, reinstatement of a very small amount has a good chance of being successful.

 

Q:  Would you be able to get liquid venlafaxine?

 

how-to-talk-to-a-doctor-about-tapering-and-withdrawal-what-to-expect

 

dsm-5-diagnosis-code-antidepressant-discontinuation-syndrome-99529-icd-10-t43205a

 

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, tiredtess said:

Of all the drugs these have been the worse to come off.

 

Q:  What else have you come off?

 

It could be that you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms from another drug/s as well.

 

Please create your drug signature so we have your drug history and can provide suggestions based on your individual situation.

 

  

4 hours ago, tiredtess said:

It has taken me months from 37.5 to get to nothing.

 

SA's recommended taper rate is no more than 10% of the current dose followed by a hold of about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

An SA recommended taper off 37.5mg would take about 3 years to get to 1mg.  And we suggest that members try to go lower than that before they jump to 0.

 

I'm providing this information to help you to understand that even though you have tapered it was much faster than your brain could handle.

 

When members first come to SA it can be very overwhelming.  I suggest you re-read the information provided.  Do you have someone who can go through the information with you.

 

 

[tiredtess]

I have been told that liquid venlafaxine is not available. I was taking MAOI drugs for most of my adult life and came off those abruptly in 2005 with no side affects. I did not want to start Venlafaxine but felt pressurized.

[ChessieCat]

Okay, the fact that the other drugs were so long ago means that the only thing that is causing the withdrawal is the venlafaxine.  That makes things much easier regarding reinstatement, if you choose to do that.

 

Venlafaxine is an SNRI.

 

I'm assuming that you had previously asked the doctor about the liquid venlafaxine because of the difficulty reducing with the capsules containing the discs.

 

If you could get some brand name Effexor than you could try taking just one of the tiny beads that are in the capsules.

 

Please let us know how you are doing.

[ChessieCat]

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:29 AM, tiredtess said:

#does age make a difference to recovery?

 

It's probably more about how many times you have gone on and off drugs and experienced withdrawal symptoms which destabilises the nervous system.  I'm about to turn 63, have been on an antidepressant for about 28 years and started tapering October 2015.  Other than when I tried reducing my dose by 50% which told you about, and then found SA, I have only had mild withdrawal symptoms during my taper and I'm now down to 0.75mg Pristiq.  I started at 100mg.

 

You might find this topic helpful.  It has recently been updated:

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by ChessieCat

[tiredtess]

I was only "on and off" drugs back in the 1970s when they really messed me around. In recent years I came off Parstelin an MAOI which i had been on for 30+ years with no problems. do the zaps cause damage?

t

[ChessieCat]

So that we don't have to keep asking about your drug history, please create your drug signature.  We need to know details for the last 2 years.  Drugs name, doses and the date you took the new dose.  Anything before that can just be a summary.  This explains what we need:

 

please-summarize-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature

 

This link goes straight to your own signature.  Remember to Save.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

Thank you.

 

3 hours ago, tiredtess said:

do the zaps cause damage?

 

I would experience brain zaps when I missed taking my 100mg dose of Pristiq.  There was one time that I missed 2 consecutive doses.  After taking my dose I had to lie to and wait for it to take effect.  Whilst lying down with my eyes closed I would get zaps when I moved my eyes.

 

If you are experiencing brain zaps then it would be a good idea to reinstate a very tiny dose of venlafaxine.

 

Altostrata, this site's owner, experienced brain zaps.  Please watch this video:  Alto Strata's Paxil Prolonged Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome (8 minutes)

 

And SA's topic:  brain-zaps

 

There are many existing topics on this site.  I prefer to use a search engine and add site: survivingantidepressants.org to my search term.

 

I did a search for brain zaps in the Success Stories forum and these are the search results.

[tiredtess]

Hello, is there a comprehensive list of withdrawal symptoms please?

t

[ChessieCat]

There are several versions of Dr Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptoms list available here.  There are printable, computer or create your own.

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

[tiredtess]

Thank you, how long can any symptom start after finishing an anti depressant and how long can they last? Brain zaps pretty much continuous, tearful after about two and half weeks, stomach problems after three weeks, palpitations. My GP said yesterday to give it six weeks for it to get out of my body.

t

[ChessieCat]

The reason this site exists is because there are not many medical professionals who know and understand about psychiatric drug withdrawal.

 

It's got nothing to do with "getting the drug out of your body".  The brain has been used to getting chemicals and it has adapted to those chemicals.  When the chemicals are taken away the brain has to try to change back to working without the chemicals.  The faster the drug is taken away the more changes it has to make all in one go.  The withdrawal symptoms that you are experiencing are because your brain is trying to return to homeostasis or factory settings.

 

The recommended taper rate is 10% of the current dose followed by a hold of about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.  The idea is to do it slowly enough to keep withdrawal symptoms to a minimum.

 

I've already given you information about it above.  Did you read it?  I also told you about my own experience.

 

The decision is yours, but if it was me I would be reinstating a small amount.

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose to get to full strength in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

 

I suggest you go back and re-read what I have already posted and check out the links I've given you.  Especially Post #1 of the reinstatement topic.

 

 

[tiredtess]

Thank you and I am sorry if you think I am not taking on board what is suggested. I have read the information and i did take many months of tapering cutting down to a quarter of a mini tab in a 37.5 capsule. That final taper lasted 6-8 weeks as did all my reductions. I am too angry and upset with it all and the powers that be. I am close to the edge and it scares me. Too go through tapering again is too much. Would i be reinstating to help with side affects or because my GP thinks my mood is low? Who knows as I don't. I should never have been put on Venlafaxine given the warnings as I have Atrial Fib. I really feel hopeless

 

[ChessieCat]

We do understand people being reluctant to start taking the drug again.  Even though you have tapered it has been too fast for your brain and your brain still needs a little bit of the drug.

 

BrassMonkey wrote the Are We There Yet topic.  He was a member on a now defunct site called Paxil Progress  for many years and has been a moderator here at SA also for many years, possibly from the very beginning.  The information that he has written is based on observing the cold turkeys, fast tapers and slow tapers of many members over many years.  He took about 7 years to taper Paxil.  He did a slower taper than SA's recommended 10% every 4 weeks.  He as able to continue working throughout his taper in a job which required him to be high functioning.  This section relates to your situation of Too-Fast Taper.  Specifically see the information in blue font:

 

On 7/6/2020 at 5:44 AM, brassmonkey said:

Cold Turkey and Too-Fast Tapers

(8)

 

I will be blunt.  Unless there is a serious medical reason, Do Not Cold Turkey or Fast Taper.  Take your time tapering.  The pain and suffering are just not worth rushing it, and over time you will get off the drugs and recover much faster by doing a gradual taper.

 

For this discussion, a Cold Turkey (CT) is defined as stopping your drugs abruptly from a “normal” dosage. There is very little information about how many people do manage a CT successfully.  Doing a CT is a gamble. You won't know if you've lost until it's too late and develop severe withdrawal symptoms.

 

Don’t be in a rush to go off the drug with a too-fast taper, either.  A too-fast taper is one where you have withdrawal symptoms while you are tapering.  The 10% taper we recommend is intended to avoid withdrawal symptoms.  If you experience many withdrawal symptoms while tapering it means that your body is having a hard time.

 

However, like cold turkey, a fast taper may be justified by a serious medical reason, something like liver damage, severe allergic reaction, or other life-threatening conditions, but not just ordinary adverse effects.  In these situations, the risk of withdrawal symptoms may be equal to the problems being caused by the drug.

 

Psych drugs work by making physical changes to the body.  The body then requires the presence of those drugs to maintain stability and to keep functioning.  Remove the drug abruptly and often the body doesn’t know how to work.  It then starts to scramble to fix itself.  While that is happening the bodies systems cannot function correctly and we get WD symptoms.  Because the body is in such chaos after CT, those symptoms can be very acute and unpredictable.

 

Because the body is in such chaos those symptoms may last for a very long time. In the nervous system alone, there are hundreds of billions of electrical connections that have to be reviewed and repaired.  Throw on top of that the endocrine system, hormonal interactions and a lot of other things, the body doesn’t know what hit it.  Over many months the body takes inventory and starts making the changes it thinks will correct the situation. Then, it needs to adjust to those changes.  This is where the familiar pattern of “Waves and Windows” comes from.

 

Like everything else WD there are no statistics on how long recovery from CT will take.  But we have a lot of case histories that give us some indication. I frequently post about several of my taper buddies that CTed 40mgai of Paxil at the same time I started my taper. Currently it has been six years, I’m off all my meds and living life at about 95% plus of normal.  They, on the other hand, are still suffering waves that rival their initial acute period.  On the positive side they are also experiencing very nice Windows.  But they are still struggling on a daily basis

 

Many members have indicated that their doctor refuses to renew their prescription as a reason for a CT.  There are just too many resources available to get a renewed prescription for this to be a valid reason.  Any doctor can prescribe these medications. They can be obtained through Urgent Care, the ER/A&E, online prescription services, to name a few of the sources available. Sometimes they are available directly from the manufacturer. There will be some hunting and footwork involved, but it is best to do what needs to be done to maintain your supply, so you can keep control over your situation.  No one is going to do this for you.

 

So, I will conclude by restating my second sentence.  Unless there is a medical reason, Do Not CT.  If you cold turkey or taper too fast and you get withdrawal symptoms, if you are at all able to resume taking your meds, please look into our threads on Reinstatement. You can find more information about reinstatement here:

 

about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-reduce-withdrawal-symptoms

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, tired.

 

When did you start Effexor? Please add this to your signature.

 

Brain zaps are the hallmark of withdrawal syndrome. You worked hard to taper, I can understand why you would not want to take the drug again. However, taking a little Effexor -- a fraction of a minitab -- probably would cause the zaps to stop. You'd taper off by minuscule amounts later.

 

You might want to try fish oil and magnesium supplements before reinstatement, see
https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Other than that, you'd just have to cope with withdrawal syndrome for as long as it lasts, which can be many months. Most likely zaps would stop earlier, though.

 

[tiredtess]

Hello, can the symptoms of withdrawal begin at any time after stopping an anti depressant? Its been a month now and I have a very sensitive bladder and now diarrhea. May be down to something else which I will get checked. As a teenager I was told I had a "nervous tummy" and it feels a bit like that. 

t

[Altostrata]

Hello, tired, I moved your new post here.

 

I don't understand your question. You have been having withdrawal symptoms all along. Do you have new symptoms now?

 

In your signature, please put the date in when you started Effexor and finally went off completely.

[ShiningLight]

Hey Tired,

 

I saw your post on the Finding Meaning thread and I became concerned.

 

You mentioned feeling lost as you are recovering from being sectioned and forced drugging and then mentioned that you just had a new memtal health assessment.

 

I am really concerned! Part of me is screaming "danger!" for you at potentially getting sucked up into the belly of the mental health beast again. What is going on?

 

If you want to go back it's your decision, and at the same time if you are making that decision only due to lack of alternate sources of support, let's problem solve that and get you some.

[tiredtess]

Thank you for caring it means a lot, The threaten of section was many years a go but altered my life for the worse and I started having flashbacks of that time fairly recently.. I can't make decisions anymore as I don't trust myself. I am feeling pretty lost.Feel I have run out of options.

t

[tiredtess]

I had/still have brain zaps. Crashing ones when trying to sleep Palpitations and very aware of my heart beat again  when trying to go to sleep. I could feel it in my head, chest, fingertips. Diarrhea which I associated with return of anxiety. I am not a worrier but if I have to go out for example even if it was something i was looking forward too my stomach/bowels would be affected. Once I was on my way and at the destination I would be fine.

I called my GP over my worries over withdrawal in case something else was going on and she arranged for a complete blood test, ECG and a FIT test. All thankfully came back clear and the Dr put it all down to withdrawal  something the Drs up to now have denied. i have been told that IF I want to consider going back on medication I would have to wait 6 months for withdrawal to clear! She also told me that those taking MAOI drugs which I did for 40+ years  should have regular monitoring and blood tests. I had nothing!

So I have been feeling pretty rubbish and today I had to have one of my cats put to sleep. Waves?  Tsunami!

t

 

Hospitalised early 1970s for no apparent reason. Given anti depressants, anti psychotics, ECT and abuse

40+ years on MAOI

Citalopram

Venlafaxine finished approx 2 months ago

[Altostrata]

@tiredtess, I moved your post here. Please add questions or updates about your situation to your Intro topic. That way, you won't have to recount your story over and over and staff will see the context for your post.

 

Please answer these questions:

On 7/27/2020 at 12:50 PM, Altostrata said:

Hello, tired, I moved your new post here.

 

I don't understand your question. You have been having withdrawal symptoms all along. Do you have new symptoms now?

 

In your signature, please put the date in when you started Effexor and finally went off completely.

 

Did you see this?

On 7/18/2020 at 8:36 PM, Altostrata said:

Hello, tired.

 

When did you start Effexor? Please add this to your signature.

 

Brain zaps are the hallmark of withdrawal syndrome. You worked hard to taper, I can understand why you would not want to take the drug again. However, taking a little Effexor -- a fraction of a minitab -- probably would cause the zaps to stop. You'd taper off by minuscule amounts later.

 

You might want to try fish oil and magnesium supplements before reinstatement, see
https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Other than that, you'd just have to cope with withdrawal syndrome for as long as it lasts, which can be many months. Most likely zaps would stop earlier, though.

 

 

[tiredtess]

I don't know the dates, i have tried fish oil and I am confused with the signature. Sorry I am stupid. Very stressed and upset with everything.

t

[tiredtess]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:25 AM, ShiningLight said:

Hey Tired,

 

I saw your post on the Finding Meaning thread and I became concerned.

 

You mentioned feeling lost as you are recovering from being sectioned and forced drugging and then mentioned that you just had a new memtal health assessment.

 

I am really concerned! Part of me is screaming "danger!" for you at potentially getting sucked up into the belly of the mental health beast again. What is going on?

 

If you want to go back it's your decision, and at the same time if you are making that decision only due to lack of alternate sources of support, let's problem solve that and get you some.

what would you suggest?

t

[ShiningLight]

Oh tired, I am so sorry to hear about your cat! That is rough. Been through it too many times. 😭💜

 

Thanks for tagging me, I didn't see your reply.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 3:57 AM, tiredtess said:

I can't make decisions anymore as I don't trust myself. I am feeling pretty lost.Feel I have run out of options.

 

Well, the mental health system is famous for making people feel like they can't trust themselves. Or at the very least, making that feeling worse. I think you're making good decisions and trying to take care of yourself. For example, you went to the doctor for your rapid heartbeat. You are posting here.

 

As far as what to suggest, can you get some local support in addition to what you have here? Do you have family or friends who are supportive? What about spiritual or religious beliefs or services? I'm not very familiar with resources in the UK, but would Samaritans be helpful for someone to talk to from time to time? What about listening to music? Meditation or yoga? Taking a walk? Art? Local peer support? I know you've probably heard all these things before. I wish I could wave a wand and make it better for you. Sometimes I think it's just a matter of going out and having some contact with people or some pleasurable input. Although you don't feel like it, if you try, there's at least a chance that it will make you feel better, just like by random luck! If you don't try, you won't feel better.

 

Overall, just hang in there and take it day by day. There will be better days. You have come through a lot. We have to be patient with ourselves.

[tiredtess]

On 9/6/2020 at 9:42 PM, tiredtess said:

I don't know the dates, i have tried fish oil and I am confused with the signature. Sorry I am stupid. Very stressed and upset with everything.

t

Sorry if it seemed like I was snapping, I think it was losing my cat which brought all sorts of guilt feelings

t

[tiredtess]

5htp

 

Is there an article on 5htp please? If so could someone direct me to it?

t

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by ChessieCat
added topic title

[ChessieCat]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:50 AM, Altostrata said:

I moved your new post here.

 

On 9/7/2020 at 5:20 AM, Altostrata said:

I moved your post here. Please add questions or updates about your situation to your Intro topic.

 

And I've just moved another one.

 

Please do not create any new Introduction topics.  Only 1 Introduction topic per member.  This keeps your history in one place.

 

3 hours ago, tiredtess said:

Is there an article on 5htp please? If so could someone direct me to it?

 

There are many topics on various things on this website.  I prefer to use a search engine and add site: survivingantidepressants.org to my search term.  There is a topic about 5htp.

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, t. How are you feeling now, compared to how you were feeling in July?

 

We don't know how 5-HTP might affect you . Some people like it, some have a bad reaction. Whatever you try, start with a very tiny amount, in case it doesn't agree with you.

 

 

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Whatever you try, start with a very tiny amount, in case it doesn't agree with you.

 

the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable

 

[tiredtess]

I feel much worse than I did in July. 

[Altostrata]

Do you have any venlafaxine left? Do you have capsules filled with tiny beads? You may wish to take a few beads for a few months, then taper off them. See About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

[tiredtess]

No. Don't know what to do anymore. 

[tiredtess]

On 9/18/2020 at 7:09 PM, Altostrata said:

Hello, t. How are you feeling now, compared to how you were feeling in July?

 

We don't know how 5-HTP might affect you . Some people like it, some have a bad reaction. Whatever you try, start with a very tiny amount, in case it doesn't agree with you.

 

I have not tried 5-HTP or anything else. I still have "zaps" and anxiety has returned with a vengeance

t