Zant808: 17+ years of psychiatric drugging

[Shep]

Hi, Zant.

 

It seems like you're expecting these drugs to have the same effect continuously no matter how long you take them, and that withdrawal has a certain design to it. But over time, these drugs, as well as adding and subtracting and changing, will wear down the nervous system, causing unexpected reactions to even the slightest bump in the road. This thread gives a lot of detail on this:

 

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

 

And as we get older, our metabolism change, and this can affect the way the drugs work. Same drug, different effect. 

 

When you're dealing with multiple drugs and multiple changes, it may not be just the one drug, but the cumulative effect, if that makes sense. 

 

At this point, with so many changes and such a long length of time on them, there may be a lot of unexpected reactions. 

 

Learning to adapt to the process of withdrawal is different than learning to adapt to the drug. In other words, you're thinking that at 12 weeks, the Anafranil will, as you say, "kick in".  And I hope you do get some relief. But there's also the concept of the continual wear and tear on your CNS at play. These drugs become more and more unpredictable the more the CNS is worn down. And remember, the chemical imbalance is a myth. 

 

Again, the chemical imbalance is a myth

 

So it may be best to look long term at the process and focus on learning how to manage symptoms long term. It seems many times you have a setback, you start escalating with symptoms until a crisis state emerges and you go back to the hospital, which leads to the vicious cycle of more drugs. 

 

Try to keep this from escalating, knowing that you're in this for the long term. Extreme states always give early notice, if we're paying attention. This may be an early notice for you, your recent nightmare being a warning saying to wake up and pay attention. 

 

Taking your meds at different times of the day to help with symptoms may cause problems now that it didn't before. You really need to be able to self-sooth for a few hours so you can keep your meds on schedule. Erratic dosing can cause problems. 

 

Do you view sleep as escape? In the long run,  this is extremely problematic, as insomnia is one of the most common symptoms throughout withdrawal. So you must find ways of coping. Distraction worked well for me. Movies, online games, guided meditation, music, etc. 

 

I also understand the tension around the news of rioting and protests, as I also live in a large city and have to deal with these kinds of issues that are more and more frequent. So try to make your distractions as far removed from news, email alerts, etc. Don't let the outside world into your inner world when you're trying to distract and settle your CNS. 

[Zant808]

Hi, Zant.

 

It seems like you're expecting these drugs to have the same effect continuously no matter how long you take them, and that withdrawal has a certain design to it. But over time, these drugs, as well as adding and subtracting and changing, will wear down the nervous system, causing unexpected reactions to even the slightest bump in the road. This thread gives a lot of detail on this:

 

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

 

And as we get older, our metabolism change, and this can affect the way the drugs work. Same drug, different effect. 

 

When you're dealing with multiple drugs and multiple changes, it may not be just the one drug, but the cumulative effect, if that makes sense. 

 

At this point, with so many changes and such a long length of time on them, there may be a lot of unexpected reactions. 

 

Learning to adapt to the process of withdrawal is different than learning to adapt to the drug. In other words, you're thinking that at 12 weeks, the Anafranil will, as you say, "kick in".  And I hope you do get some relief. But there's also the concept of the continual wear and tear on your CNS at play. These drugs become more and more unpredictable the more the CNS is worn down. And remember, the chemical imbalance is a myth. 

 

Again, the chemical imbalance is a myth

 

So it may be best to look long term at the process and focus on learning how to manage symptoms long term. It seems many times you have a setback, you start escalating with symptoms until a crisis state emerges and you go back to the hospital, which leads to the vicious cycle of more drugs. 

 

Try to keep this from escalating, knowing that you're in this for the long term. Extreme states always give early notice, if we're paying attention. This may be an early notice for you, your recent nightmare being a warning saying to wake up and pay attention. 

 

Taking your meds at different times of the day to help with symptoms may cause problems now that it didn't before. You really need to be able to self-sooth for a few hours so you can keep your meds on schedule. Erratic dosing can cause problems. 

 

Do you view sleep as escape? In the long run,  this is extremely problematic, as insomnia is one of the most common symptoms throughout withdrawal. So you must find ways of coping. Distraction worked well for me. Movies, online games, guided meditation, music, etc. 

 

I also understand the tension around the news of rioting and protests, as I also live in a large city and have to deal with these kinds of issues that are more and more frequent. So try to make your distractions as far removed from news, email alerts, etc. Don't let the outside world into your inner world when you're trying to distract and settle your CNS. 

 

I tried staying up the whole night but fell into a light sleep around 8:00 AM.  For some reason my mother intentionally woke me up without reason.  I somehow managed to fall into a light sleep again and around 8:30 AM, she intentionally woke me up again without reason for a second time.  I was then unable to fall asleep again, got up and felt very angry and manic.  I argued with my mother and she told me that I needed to go back to the emergency room.  I told her no and then she said she felt sick and left the house.  I got a call from her later and she said that she went to the doctor but was crying and didn't know what to do.  She said that taking care of my stepfather and I is too much and that she wants to see a psychiatrist herself for medication or just wants to run away from both of us so she doesn't have any more stress in her life.  She eventually returned home and calmed down but my mania did not.  I was very afraid and then while I was watching TV, I managed to fall asleep for a few hours.  That is the only time the mania went away.  My mother seems to be adamant that my behavioral changes were due to the reduction and removal of the Trazadone.

 

I understand that I am very kindled at this point.  I was going to call withdrawing from the remaining 3 medications quits and just live on them for the next several years or so.  It's mainly because of my lack of faith in my ability that I will be able to withdraw from the remaining medications.  Right now I'm too afraid of failure and ending up in the hospital again.  But on the other hand, staying on these meds is going to perform wear and tear on my CNS like you said.  I am torn on the chemical imbalance theory.  Sadly, we cannot objectively measure neurotransmitter levels and this is something that medical science needs to develop.  Some people benefit from medications but I am one of those who was easily harmed by them.  I know I'm in this for the long term and that is what is frightening to me.  I will stop the erratic dosing and I suppose switching on Netflix will block out the news.

 

As for sleep, I have always viewed it as the greatest thing in the world even before taking medications.  It was always my escape from reality.  If I had a bad day at school, I could escape with video games and then I was very excited to know that sleep was coming because it was always refreshing and meant a chance at a new day.  To lose the ability to sleep normally is more devastating to me than having PSSD.  There are a lot of things I can do for distraction but with all of that free time the question of "Am I really bipolar?" still creeps into my mind.  These feelings of hypomania and mania are very real.  It's not quite as bad as when doctors cold turkeyed me 10 - 16 years ago off of med cocktails.  But during those short inpatient stays to get remedicated, I wasn't kindled because shortly after reinstatement, I could fall asleep in the noisy acute wards and then get released.  I could go back to college or work and I had to fight to stay awake because the meds still had extremely powerful sedating properties.  Now my nervous system is in more of a state of constant awareness and arousal.

 

When I read about people on other forums who swear to have true bipolar disorder, they say that during their manic states they can stay awake for many days at a time until they crash and fall asleep.  This just reminds me of my foolish decision of drinking alcohol back in 2008 that ruined my recovery and caused me to not sleep for 3 weeks leading to a psychotic break and what was supposed to be a permanent stay in a state mental hospital.  I never crashed during that 3 week period and I only got minimal sleep in the hospital due to what seemed like random experimentation with different meds for 3 or 4 months until finally Depakote ER, Ambien CR, Klonopin and Anafranil was the med cocktail that I was released from the state hospital on.  During outpatient, Anafranil and Ambien CR were removed and I stayed on the Depakote ER and Klonopin for about 5 years until the blackouts happened and then I really questioned my quality of life and whether I could get off those final two medications.  But with a hospitalization in 2015 and 2016, it seems like I should have just stayed the course with Depakote ER and Klonopin because now I am so very kindled.  One of my bosses who knew about my mental illness told me to watch a movie called As Good As It Gets.  As for as my life goes right now, I should perhaps be asking "Is this as good as it gets?"

[SkyBlue]

 One of my bosses who knew about my mental illness told me to watch a movie called As Good As It Gets.  As for as my life goes right now, I should perhaps be asking "Is this as good as it gets?"

 

 

 

Hi, Zant. I'm new to your thread but this jumped out at me. First of all, I didn't like that movie. Second, I don't think that any of us know how good it gets or can get. I do think it is a mind-game that withdrawal can play with us, me included. It's such a depressing thought, because it's the same as saying "Things aren't going to get any better than this." Which a) we can't know, and probably isn't true. 

 

Hang in there. 

[JanCarol]

Hey Zant - 

 

Whew!  You've come a long way, and quickly!  

 

I would have expected symptoms like this a lot earlier from Zyprexa since it is a sedating antipsychotic. 

 

Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms

 

As Shep said, you don't know whether you are coming or going.  You've had so many changes in the past year (and I count at least a year when considering delayed symptoms), that any symptoms you have right now could be from any of these changes.

 

I tried staying up the whole night but fell into a light sleep around 8:00 AM.  For some reason my mother intentionally woke me up without reason.

 

Why did you do this?  To prove to yourself that sleep was not being used as an escape?

 

It was obviously destabilising, and caused a row with your mother and a generally grumpy day.

 

Please keep your days the same, the same, the same.  In this game, boring is good.  Routine will help stabilise you.

 

She said that taking care of my stepfather and I is too much and that she wants to see a psychiatrist herself for medication or just wants to run away from both of us so she doesn't have any more stress in her life.

 

I know you are in the US, and there is not as much recognition of this "carer's stress."  Here in Australia, they offer respite for carers by putting the one who needs medical attention (your step-father - sorry for my previous post calling him your father) into a facility for just a few weeks so that she can put her feet up and recover.

 

Often, it is the beginning of the transition to full time care, when the carer realizes it's just too much.

 

I was going to call withdrawing from the remaining 3 medications quits and just live on them for the next several years or so

 

Catastrophizing.  Do you really need to do this?  

 

Yes, we look at months and years in the withdrawal and healing process, but that doesn't mean that you will have years of symptoms.  Usually, after the first 6 months of lower drug load, people begin to feel much, much better.

 

 It's mainly because of my lack of faith in my ability that I will be able to withdraw from the remaining medications.  Right now I'm too afraid of failure and ending up in the hospital again.  

 

Remember to go too slowly.  Now that you are kindled, those last drops can be crucial.  Tapering slowly is the only way you can trick your brain into thinking it's okay!

 

Here's something I wrote somewhere else:

Think of the (drug) as a wolf or a bear.

 

When you are in the wild and you encounter one of these things, the FIRST thing you must do is: KEEP CALM.  (yeah, I know, the meme and all, but it's true)  The next thing you do is DON'T MOVE!

 

If it is a total standoff and you want to get away, you CANNOT run.  It's you and the bear.  If you run, the bear and wolf have a hard-wired instinct to chase, and you will lose.

 

The goal in a standoff with a bear is to sneak.

 

That's what a taper is.  Sneaking away from the wolf.  You've seen a cat stalk - it waits until the prey is not looking, then moves a bit (maybe 10%?)  then it waits.  And waits.  And waits.  Holding will save your life, when you are in a standoff with a bear.  And Depakote and klonopin are a bear and a wolf respectively!

 

Before, you dropped your berries and ran away, and the bear caught up to you.  Didn't work. 

 

The goal is to sneak the drug out of your system sooooooo slowly that your brain hardly notices it's gone.  And doesn't chuck a wobbly like before

 

So please, please, hold for awhile now, 3-6 months - and when you do taper, don't come off as fast as you did last time!

 

As for sleep, I have always viewed it as the greatest thing in the world even before taking medications.  It was always my escape from reality.  If I had a bad day at school, I could escape with video games and then I was very excited to know that sleep was coming because it was always refreshing and meant a chance at a new day.  To lose the ability to sleep normally is more devastating to me than having PSSD. 

 

So there may be an element of enjoying the oblivion of sleep.  It does sound like your waking life is stressful enough to want to escape.

 

But - life is hard, and the time we spend here alive is the most precious in the world.  

 

Look back to your childhood.  What were your dreams and desires?  When I was 5 I wanted to be a cowboy. (note: not a cowgirl!)  I never achieved that dream, but I have learned a bit about riding a horse.

 

Instead of fixating on "am I bipolar?" (more on that in a moment) Look at all of the things you wanted from life, wanted to do in life.  Were you going to be a writer - a manga artist - a videogame designer - an athlete?  Look at these desires, and play with them, like your childhood playmates.

 

My childhood dreams lay in ashes.  I am not a concert pianist, or a high powered attorney, or a high-powered corporate anything.  I have not climbed all the 10k foot mountains in the world.  I have only climbed one.  I've never written a book, or even edited one for publishing.  I have never made a pilgrimage to Uluru.  I have never been a rock star, or even played in a rock 'n' roll band (but I married one, so I can get that vicariously).

 

Life throws us curve balls.  Now I know I will never be a concert pianist, but what I did do has expanded my appreciation of skilled instrumentalists.  I enjoy watching John Grisham movies and reading his books - that's the closest to "high powered attorney" I will ever get.  I may never write a novel - but I write, everyday, here on SA and other sites.

 

You may never be published as a manga artist, but instead enjoy manga coloring books.  You may never be a videogame designer, but perhaps you would enjoy being a beta tester?

 

Look at your dreams and desires, and find ways to manifest them in your life.

 

Fixating on bipolar - I can assure you that the famous creative bipolars in Kaye Redfield Jamison's "Touched with Fire" did not - will only cause you to spiral in and down.

 

When I came here, I was convinced, based on my family history, that I was mostly likely to be bipolar.  But it wasn't until I started truly coming out from under the lithium fog that I realized - sure - I may be weird, I may be eccentric, and sometimes I may be a little too loud, a little too excited (and that is especially embarassing for Australians, who are quieter than Americans) - but - I am the one in charge of my own mood.

 

If my mood is out of sorts, it is so likely that it is from exhaustion, or stress, or maybe I had too much coffee yesterday - or maybe that alcoholic beverage which went down so good at the time (I have maybe 4 a year!) has exacted a price.  Maybe I haven't seen enough of the sun, which is one of my major mood stabilizers now.

 

question of "Am I really bipolar?" still creeps into my mind. 

 

and

When I read about people on other forums who swear to have true bipolar disorder, they say that during their manic states they can stay awake for many days at a time until they crash and fall asleep.  

 

There are about 99% of "bipolar diagnoses" right now which are drug reactions.  You cannot diagnose a drug reaction.  And these people - they swear it - they believe it - they buy the same horse hockey cubbyhole that you are trying to cram yourself into.  

 

 

and

 

It's not a Breakdown

 

As for as my life goes right now, I should perhaps be asking "Is this as good as it gets?"

 

Jon Kabat-Zinn

"The fact that you are breathing means there is more right with you than wrong with you in this moment."

 

Shep keeps taking you to the mindfulness videos.  Follow her, she is skiing down a precipitous mountain, but she's going to make it.  If mindfulness is how she's doing it - it's an excellent place to start.

 

JanCarol Rumination and Mindfulness

 

I too, was asking this question when I arrived at SA.  My first words were:  I am unhappy.  I have been depressed my entire life.  I am familiar with depression.  I can be depressed without the drugs.  (in other words, on drugs, off drugs, I believed that bipolar depression was "as good as it gets.") (oh yeah, did you know I am an "Undiagnosed bipolar"?)

 

But what I've found is more, more than I ever dreamed possible.  I have a community, a spiritual practice, a purpose - I looked for decades for my porpoise, and now have found it, here on SA and in other arenas of my life.  I feel wanted, needed, and my lands, the whole of Creation is an amazing and beautiful and wonderous place.  I could spend the rest of my life just seeking out new things about Nature, and be completely satisfied - nay - ecstatic!

 

Look up.  Look up at the sky, the stars, and take heart that your life is not as big or as dramatic as a black hole or supernova.  Not even as big or dramatic as little Mercury whizzing by that giant flaming ball of gasses we call the sun.  Take awe in the blade of grass, the grain of sand, the tiny cricket, your household pet, the amazing things inside of your computer, and the world at your fingertips on the internet.

 

As I reckon it, you don't have time for the bipolar question - there's too much life out there!  If you don't live it now, when will you?

[Zant808]

 

 One of my bosses who knew about my mental illness told me to watch a movie called As Good As It Gets.  As for as my life goes right now, I should perhaps be asking "Is this as good as it gets?"

 

 

 

Hi, Zant. I'm new to your thread but this jumped out at me. First of all, I didn't like that movie. Second, I don't think that any of us know how good it gets or can get. I do think it is a mind-game that withdrawal can play with us, me included. It's such a depressing thought, because it's the same as saying "Things aren't going to get any better than this." Which a) we can't know, and probably isn't true. 

 

Hang in there. 

 

 

I actually don't remember too much about the movie other than the quote actually.  But you're right, we don't know our future.

[Zant808]

ZanCarol,

 

I've come a long way and probably too quickly.  Right now as I'm writing this I'm not sure what is happening with me.  I only got a light amount of sleep last night but I felt alright in the morning.l  But now It feels like I'm going hypomanic or even full blown manic now.  But on the other hand, maybe this is just what a person feels like when they aren't depressed.  Actually, another thing it reminds me of is when I was taking SSRIs and SNRIs.  So perhaps it could be linked to the Anafranil.  I feel like i have too much energy and I'm having difficultly making a decision with what to do with myself because I'm used to just vegging out and watching TV but I feel like I can't do that now.

 

Maybe this is the delayed onset of withdrawal symptoms.  It feels somewhat like when Zyprexa was completely cold-turkeyed in the past but I am not at the point where I am just pacing all around my house frantically with all sorts of brain zaps and racing thoughts.  I'm actually able to sit here and compose a message.

 

As for the sleeping at 8:00 AM, the range of 6:00 AM to 9:00 AM has been my usual onset of sleep since 2010 regardless of when I took my medications.  I wanted to stay up the whole night to attempt to reset myself to the time we were forced to go to sleep in the hospital which was between 10:00 PM and 11:00 PM.  So essentially this was an attempt to get a new routine going.

 

My mom has luckily recovered from yesterday and is back to being functional.  When my stepfather had a stroke and was put into rehab, he was very angry and violent with the nursing staff.  They wound up putting him on Xanax and Seroquel because they could not handle his treatment of the nursing staff.  He didn't want to do any rehab and just wanted to come home, so my mom signed him out early and brought him home.  She has the option of putting him into a nursing home but won't do so because of financial reasons.  I think she will lose half of her savings before insurance will pay for the remainder of the stay so she will probably never put him into a nursing home no matter how stressed she gets.

 

My goal for now is to be stable, hold on these 3 medications and stay out of the hospital.  Have you ever experienced hypomania or mania before?  That's usually a sign that hospitalization is needed.  But of course, I've tried the hospital so many times and it just makes me worse.

 

My childhood dream changed from wanting to be a banker and then a chemist but then finally a video game developer.  I was able to create simple video games many years ago prior to being medicated and I'm satisfied with that.  They take entire teams to develop now and my interest has gone away from that.  I only really have these as major goals now:  to become wealthy through internet marketing, to come off medications to see how much I can heal, to cure PSSD and to do anything possible to stop the mental health system from destroying so many lives.

 

I still believe that my bipolar disorder diagnosis and symptoms are due to drug reactions.  The Dr. Breggin videos and books were always helpful.  However, my confidence is still low that I will be able to come off all medications because I feel like that one time when I accomplished it back in 2006/2007 was my only chance because I was not kindled then and the woman who gave me the most one on one care with how to come off the meds I was on at the time passed away earlier this year in the midst of her second attempt at helping me withdraw.

 

I must admit that no matter how much I look into mindfulness, I do not really understand it.  It's just like when people discuss spirituality.  These concepts really do not make much sense to me.  My ability to grasp new concepts has gone down significantly over the years, so I cannot just pretend like I understand something when I do not.

[Zant808]

The feelings of hypomania seem to come and go and now I'm frightened.  Does SA have a chat room so people can discuss things in real time?  Because right now, I'm just so scared of what I'm feeling and I know forum responses can take quite a while to happen.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Zant,

 

SA does not have a real time chat room.  SA is staffed by volunteers who live in different countries around the world.  Most of the moderators are either tapering or dealing with having cold turkeyed their drug/s and go through windows and waves.  Some mods also work full time.  I volunteer 3 days per week for 2 different not for profit organisations.

 

What do you mean by self-manage?

 

Dealing with this challenge requires a lot from you, the "taperer". You need to be able to

• take responsibility for your decisions
   
• exercise extreme patience
   
• tolerate discomfort and uncertainty
   
• communicate truthfully and responsibly about what is going on with you
   
• identify when you require local, in-person support and then take real-life action to obtain it

 

Previous posts (page 4) have listed ideas for how to cope.  We can only give you suggestions.  You have to try and find things that work for you.  Knowing what is happening is part of the solution.  It takes away some of the fear.  The next part is to do something (non-drug) to distract or relieve it.

 

Checking back over your most recent posts I found this post and you said "Then all of a sudden things got better and I was able to go out and enjoy myself."

 

I have noticed several things.  Please understand that I am not being critical, just observing and trying to offer suggestions:

 

• you sleep at odd hours
• which then means you don't have a routine
• you probably don't eat at regular times
• your home environment appears to be stressful
• you enjoyed going out

 

My thought is that you might find improvement if you try and get some structure into your day.  Try to gradually change your sleep pattern by moving it by an hour or so each day (probably tell your mum that you are doing this so she understands what you are doing).  Try to go out of the house every day, even if just for a walk around the block.  Maybe try and go a different way each time so it gives you different things to look at or look at from a different perspective.  Do you have a library or museum close by?  A plant nursery or park?  One of the other mods suggested volunteering.  Do you have any skills which you could teach someone?  None of these ideas need to be fancy or cost money, but they do require effort.  I'm thinking that if you can get out of the house more then the home situation probably won't feel as stifling, depressing and stressful and being out of the house will distract you from how you are feeling.  It will also give you something to talk about with other people.  And it will hopefully help you get your sleep to a more natural time of the day.

[ravijaua]

Just reading through this thread. I have to say you guys are amazing in how well you support people. The OP went through a lot due to the BS psychiatric institution and you guys are excellent in helping.

[ravijaua]

Zant, you are definitely not bipolar. Reread your own thread several times. You were stable at subtherapeutic doses of Depakote for months even longer. You just tapered too fast all along and especially at the end. Given your long history of drug use with so many drugs, you should have tapered really really really slow like 2.5 % per every couple weeks.

[ravijaua]

If you were bipolar, you would have present with frank mania while you were on low doses of Depakote. Your main problem has been Insomnia which has nothing to do with a bipolar disorder, that is something that we mostly all suffer from on this site due to long terms psychotropic drug use.

[ravijaua]

Even though I don't think I have suffered nearly close to you, I often find myself crying in the shower, or sitting in a fetal position on the floor. I find thinking of the good times in my life helps me cope. Hopefully this can help you too. Maybe those times in 2007 when you were off medication.

[ravijaua]

You know what is really baffling?  Why the heck am I sleeping a lot more on only 3 sedating medications instead of the 6 I was on when I was released from the hospital?  Zyprexa, Vistaril and Trazadone are long gone from my system...

Probably because you didn't need 6 meds.

[Zant808]

Hi Zant,

 

SA does not have a real time chat room.  SA is staffed by volunteers who live in different countries around the world.  Most of the moderators are either tapering or dealing with having cold turkeyed their drug/s and go through windows and waves.  Some mods also work full time.  I volunteer 3 days per week for 2 different not for profit organisations.

 

What do you mean by self-manage?

 

Dealing with this challenge requires a lot from you, the "taperer". You need to be able to

• take responsibility for your decisions

   

• exercise extreme patience

   

• tolerate discomfort and uncertainty

   

• communicate truthfully and responsibly about what is going on with you

   

• identify when you require local, in-person support and then take real-life action to obtain it

 

Previous posts (page 4) have listed ideas for how to cope.  We can only give you suggestions.  You have to try and find things that work for you.  Knowing what is happening is part of the solution.  It takes away some of the fear.  The next part is to do something (non-drug) to distract or relieve it.

 

Checking back over your most recent posts I found this post and you said "Then all of a sudden things got better and I was able to go out and enjoy myself."

 

I have noticed several things.  Please understand that I am not being critical, just observing and trying to offer suggestions:

 

• you sleep at odd hours
• which then means you don't have a routine
• you probably don't eat at regular times
• your home environment appears to be stressful
• you enjoyed going out

 

My thought is that you might find improvement if you try and get some structure into your day.  Try to gradually change your sleep pattern by moving it by an hour or so each day (probably tell your mum that you are doing this so she understands what you are doing).  Try to go out of the house every day, even if just for a walk around the block.  Maybe try and go a different way each time so it gives you different things to look at or look at from a different perspective.  Do you have a library or museum close by?  A plant nursery or park?  One of the other mods suggested volunteering.  Do you have any skills which you could teach someone?  None of these ideas need to be fancy or cost money, but they do require effort.  I'm thinking that if you can get out of the house more then the home situation probably won't feel as stifling, depressing and stressful and being out of the house will distract you from how you are feeling.  It will also give you something to talk about with other people.  And it will hopefully help you get your sleep to a more natural time of the day.

 

I apologize if I am repeating myself.  It is unfortunate there is no real-time chat but you are very well staffed with knowledgeable people.  The bullet points for self-management are very challenging for me but I do understand why they are necessary.

 

You are correct in the other five bullet points as well.  I sleep at odd hours.  I have tried to change this since 2010 working with the pdoc and therapists but to no avail.  I am supposed to have a sleep study done again soon but I will not know the exact date until Monday.  I do not eat at regular times either.  I'm finding that I have a lack of appetite lately as well which was rarely the case.  My home environment is stressful for sure but I have no choice other than homelessness if I want to leave.  I do enjoy going out for certain things, mostly eating out at restaurants or for going to concerts.  Today I felt so unsafe with the high level of energy I was feeling, that I didn't even want to leave the house.  At the very least, I will normally walk to my car and drive around to the mall or something like that.  I don't usually walk around the neighborhood because this is the neighborhood where I was bullied and harmed and while those people are long gone, just the scenery can be a trigger for me.  There is a library and there are parks within driving distance.  I do both volunteering and teaching online.  I don't really enjoy interacting with people in the real world.  I really haven't enjoyed that since I was a kid.  I also have a tough time dealing with cold temperatures and I am afraid that I am going to get sick and then wind up in the hospital because I cannot sleep properly to heal myself.

 

Sorry the for negativity but I am just trying to share what I am doing and how I view the world.

[ChessieCat]

We all have things in our lives that we cannot change.  On the other hand there are things that we can change.  We generally can't, and it isn't a good idea, to try and change lots of things at once but by making small changes we can gradually improve our own situation.

[Zant808]

Just reading through this thread. I have to say you guys are amazing in how well you support people. The OP went through a lot due to the BS psychiatric institution and you guys are excellent in helping.

 

They do an excellent job.  I wish I could do something to give back to them.

 

Zant, you are definitely not bipolar. Reread your own thread several times. You were stable at subtherapeutic doses of Depakote for months even longer. You just tapered too fast all along and especially at the end. Given your long history of drug use with so many drugs, you should have tapered really really really slow like 2.5 % per every couple weeks.

 

There was a spreadsheet with a timeline that I was trying to adhere to with coming off the Depakote and Klonopin.  I had a specific date set where I was supposed to be off all meds.  It was supposed to be something like in the middle of April 2017.  I was then supposed to start looking for a place of my own and removing myself from my family to avoid that stress in my life.  But I know there really cannot be a set timeline.  You have to go based on how you feel more than anything.  This was poor judgement on my part because I kept thinking that my nervous system could easily handle coming off only two meds in 2015 - 2016 when I was able to come off 5 meds in the 2006 - 2007 time period even quicker and with a lot more ease.  But not being kindled, being in my 20's only, being tougher, having "only" taken about 25 different psych meds for 9 years, having personal nutritional support, having the Ashton Manual Klonopin to Valium crossover actually work and the fact that insomnia was not a severe withdrawal symptom then was probably why I was able to succeed so quickly.

 

If you were bipolar, you would have present with frank mania while you were on low doses of Depakote. Your main problem has been Insomnia which has nothing to do with a bipolar disorder, that is something that we mostly all suffer from on this site due to long terms psychotropic drug use.

 

Those were my thoughts about the low doses of Depakote as well.  Again, it was poor judgement on my part to think that having the Depakote not show up in my blood was a sign that I could jump off so quickly.  Insomnia has a lot to do with bipolar disorder actually.  Bipolar disorder is supposed to be an organic brain disease where your brain does not produce enough GABA which thus affects all of your other neurotransmitter systems.

 

Even though I don't think I have suffered nearly close to you, I often find myself crying in the shower, or sitting in a fetal position on the floor. I find thinking of the good times in my life helps me cope. Hopefully this can help you too. Maybe those times in 2007 when you were off medication.

 

I am sorry you are suffering so much but I am sure you will make it through this.  Look at my case as an example of what not to do.  I try to think of good times.  It is weird in my case though because of the Depakote, a lot of the time my mood is just set to "neutral" no matter if I think about something good or bad.  Hence, that is why Depakote and lithium are called mood stabilizers.

 

 

You know what is really baffling?  Why the heck am I sleeping a lot more on only 3 sedating medications instead of the 6 I was on when I was released from the hospital?  Zyprexa, Vistaril and Trazadone are long gone from my system...

Probably because you didn't need 6 meds.

 

 

The inpatient pdoc certainly thought I needed 6 meds although that pdoc did want me to stop Zyprexa in outpatient because of the diabetic risk factors.  The outpatient pdoc thinks differently and said I only needed these 3 and even wanted to reduce Klonopin slowly.  My latest diagnosis is bipolar NOS, general anxiety disorder and OCD.  I'm not sure if I reported this in an earlier post but after going back and forth with these pdoc cancelling appointments, now they have agreed to see me again in the late afternoon.  So at least I know I will have my next month's supply of medication.

[Zant808]

We all have things in our lives that we cannot change.  On the other hand there are things that we can change.  We generally can't, and it isn't a good idea, to try and change lots of things at once but by making small changes we can gradually improve our own situation.

 

This is very well said.  I am finished with putting an emphasis on my age and trying to accomplish goal x by age y.  That is how we are socially programmed from youth and I think it causes a lot of issues for most of society.  I am hoping that I can find the things that I can change to make gradual improvements.

[ravijaua]

I strongly suggest that you do not set a goal of I need to be off meds by X date. I think you can set goals of I need to move out and be independent by set date but this doesn't mean you have to be off meds. For example, when you were tapering, you were probably stable enough to move out if you had the financial ability to do so. You should rush the tapering because as you saw, it ended up causing you go back on more meds and set back your tapering goals. You can move on with life while tapering. My suggestion is that you should avoid going to inpatient hospitalization again as from what I've seen in your past, you severely backstepped each time that happened and those quacks in the inpatient always add multiple drugs you don't need. Like many people said you would have been fine in inpatient if you had a good doctor who just put you back on Depakote and Klonopin. Instead they gave u six drugs including an antipsychotic, two antidepressants and anti-histamine.

[ravijaua]

 

Why were you forced into the hospital?

 

I had my mother attend the pdoc appointment with me because she needed to fill out paperwork regarding healthcare privacy.  Instead of doing the paperwork, my pdoc asked my mother questions regarding my behavior and my mother said things that were obvious red flags such as I wanted to commit suicide, harm others etc. even though such statements were not true at the time.  I was merely anxious about the lack of sleep and wanted a solution.  It was my word vs. my mother's and the pdoc sided with my mother and thus I was forced into inpatient.  I was fortunate enough that they botched things internally and I was able to sign myself out of the hospital voluntarily instead of having to wait for a court hearing as is supposed to be the case with committed mental patients in the USA.

 

These psychiatrists are such stupid ! OMG, Having SI, HI doesn't mean you need to be thrown into inpatient , they are even taught that the SI/HI has to be serious with real risk , plan, history of past attempts of which you have NONE.

[ravijaua]

Also there is hope. I suggest you read GiaK thread and posts. She was on 6-8 psychotropic medications all on highest dose for years and started with an SSRI like you at age 19. Eventually she got off all of them and is now free for years and sleeping and doing well. She even lost weight, got better hair, etc. Take a look at her blog.

[ravijaua]

https://beyondmeds.com/ Read this website by her. Everytime I get severely depressed by my withdrawals, I read her page and it make me feel a whole lot better.

[scallywag]

Zant, you live in or near NYC.  There are almost certainly distress phone lines in such a large metropolitan area.  Many of these confidential and free (as in no $ required) services support people in a number of difficult mental and emotional states, and do not limit their assistance to those having suicidal ideation.

[Zant808]

I strongly suggest that you do not set a goal of I need to be off meds by X date. I think you can set goals of I need to move out and be independent by set date but this doesn't mean you have to be off meds. For example, when you were tapering, you were probably stable enough to move out if you had the financial ability to do so. You should rush the tapering because as you saw, it ended up causing you go back on more meds and set back your tapering goals. You can move on with life while tapering. My suggestion is that you should avoid going to inpatient hospitalization again as from what I've seen in your past, you severely backstepped each time that happened and those quacks in the inpatient always add multiple drugs you don't need. Like many people said you would have been fine in inpatient if you had a good doctor who just put you back on Depakote and Klonopin. Instead they gave u six drugs including an antipsychotic, two antidepressants and anti-histamine.

 

Yes, every time I go into the hospital I come out on more meds and with less of a chance at a decent quality of life.  I just really hope I'm able to stabilize soon.  Today was a rough but not as bad as yesterday.  I was extremely agitated and angry.  I think it has something to do with the Depakote Sprinkles coming out of my system too early because of the half-life.  You're really supposed to take the regular version of Depakote in the morning and at night.  After taking 250 mg of Depakote Sprinkles while I was agitated I started to feel relief.  I was able to finally leave the house and get my mail.  I crawled up into a ball on my reclining chair to watch TV and I was told I fell asleep for a while.  I took the rest of my medications at about 10:30 which was the time they were normally given in the hospital.  I just wanted some more symptom relief.  I'm just not able to handle the bullet points ChesieCat showed earlier.

 

 

 

Why were you forced into the hospital?

 

I had my mother attend the pdoc appointment with me because she needed to fill out paperwork regarding healthcare privacy.  Instead of doing the paperwork, my pdoc asked my mother questions regarding my behavior and my mother said things that were obvious red flags such as I wanted to commit suicide, harm others etc. even though such statements were not true at the time.  I was merely anxious about the lack of sleep and wanted a solution.  It was my word vs. my mother's and the pdoc sided with my mother and thus I was forced into inpatient.  I was fortunate enough that they botched things internally and I was able to sign myself out of the hospital voluntarily instead of having to wait for a court hearing as is supposed to be the case with committed mental patients in the USA.

 

These psychiatrists are such stupid ! OMG, Having SI, HI doesn't mean you need to be thrown into inpatient , they are even taught that the SI/HI has to be serious with real risk , plan, history of past attempts of which you have NONE.

 

 

Yeah, that was the 2015 hospitalization.  A lot of that was my fault.  I was in a panic because I started to blackout while brushing my teeth before going to bad when taking the Depakote ER and Klonopin.  So that's really why I wanted to try to come off everything again because I didn't want to bush my skull open.  There was no known method for coming off Depakote ER except for going down by 250 mg which was too hard for me.  The only other option was what I did in 2006/2007 which was to go inpatient and having them do a crossover from Depakote to lithium.  Lithium could then be reduced by a compound pharmacy.  My old benzo wise doctor no longer worked with benzo withdrawal because too many people were coming to him to get benzos to get high.  I didn't trust liquid titration.  I just had the mindset that I could get off Klonopin by using the .5 mg pills reducing it by .125 mg every two weeks.  I did great until I hit the 2 mg mark and then I couldn't sleep again and that's when the hospitalization happened.  I wasn't given the lithium crossover and was just updosed to 3 mg of Klonopin which never had the same effect on sleep as before.

 

Also there is hope. I suggest you read GiaK thread and posts. She was on 6-8 psychotropic medications all on highest dose for years and started with an SSRI like you at age 19. Eventually she got off all of them and is now free for years and sleeping and doing well. She even lost weight, got better hair, etc. Take a look at her blog.

 

Yeah, I am familiar with her work but have not read her posts here yet.  It is very odd because I remember she was still struggling in Catherine Creel's Yahoo group during the time when I managed to get off everything.  I think Shep and GiaK are the only people who have taken a similar amount of meds as me for a similar amount of time.  I was told by Catherine Creel something harsh years ago but I believe it now.  She said that I was way too weak because I was a man.  She said that women could take much more pain and that is why they can handle things such as pregnancy.  I would be interested to see a male who managed to come off of a similar amount of meds for a similar amount of time.

 

https://beyondmeds.com/ Read this website by her. Everytime I get severely depressed by my withdrawals, I read her page and it make me feel a whole lot better.

 

Yes, that blog is excellent.  I'm shocked at her ability to tolerate that amount of pain and suffering and make it out in the end.  I don't even know how she wrote all of those blog entries in her condition.  The one major difference I can see is that she appears to have always been in a state of CNS depression, so she was able to just lay in bed all day.  That's how my system was in 2006/2007.  Meds would push me further into CNS depression and allow for sleep.  Now my system is hyperactive and meds really don't push me into a state of CNS depression.  And oddly enough, 10 years ago, I had way more withdrawal symptoms but I made it out mainly because I would sleep.  Switching from .5 mg of Klonopin to 10 mg of Valium was a crucial last step.  Now it's really just horrible insomnia but I cannot handle it and I cave in very quickly.  Perhaps I was more optimistic about the extent of healing I would reach 10 years ago.

 

Zant, you live in or near NYC.  There are almost certainly distress phone lines in such a large metropolitan area.  Many of these confidential and free (as in no $ required) services support people in a number of difficult mental and emotional states, and do not limit their assistance to those having suicidal ideation.

 

After doing a lot of research, there are many resources available for that.  I've reconnected with someone who was in an inpatient hospitalization with me many years ago and I'm hoping we can help each other out.  Life is very strange.  Because it doesn't seem like people really care for one another until they say they want to commit suicide.  And the route that these distress lines want you to take is to go for emergency psychiatric screening which leads to hospitalization and more harmful psychiatric meds.  I guess I'm alright for now.  It's just that I fear what the next day is going to bring.  I think that maybe I should have just stayed on the Trazadone and Vistaril.  Maybe reinstatement would fix my problems or maybe it would do nothing.  I'm an adult and I can really only make these decisions.  It's just that I don't want to be making these types of decisions.  I see too many people having fun and living a normal life.  Their toughest decision is which one of their luxury cars to take out to dinner for the night.

[Zant808]

It's so early in the morning posting this.  I'm used to sometimes just falling asleep at this time.  It has to be the Trazodone withdrawal that is driving me completely insane.  I feel like I'm hungover or something and I haven't drank alcohol since 2009.  I had the energy to read a book about someone who survived benzo withdrawal on Kindle for PC.  I felt a lot of pressure in my head and decided to take a break.  I took some magnesium glycinate supplements which I haven't taken since trying to come off Depakote.  It seemed to calm me down but not to the point where I thought I could sleep.  But as soon as I went on the reclining chair to watch TV, I fell asleep and woke up a half hour later.  I used the DVR to rewind the show and watch it again and I fell asleep almost instantly for another half an hour.  Then I got up to go brush my teeth and get into my bed and I felt like I was just laying there resting but not asleep for about 2 and a half hours.  Trazodone is supposed to be a PRN / use as needed medication.  I never expected to be in this much hell from a drug that in the past when I got prescribed as high as 300 mg of it, all it really did was give me 4 hours of sleep for 4 days and a lot of dry mouth.  This withdrawal and lack of sleep feels almost as bad as 16 years ago when I cold turkeyed both Depakote and Zyprexa because I wasn't so kindled then and it made my CNS extremely depressed back then and I couldn't handle it so I just cold turkeyed because I didn't know any other options.

[Shep]

Hi, Zant.

 

My main concern for you is the way you use sleep as a coping mechanism. I think that is going to be your downfall unless you find something to replace it with. 

 

This constant need for oblivion is a dangerous road. This is an interesting clip from an old Real Time show where Bill Maher interviews Dr. Drew about prescription sleep meds: 

 

 

You mentioned in a previous post, "I see too many people having fun and living a normal life.  Their toughest decision is which one of their luxury cars to take out to dinner for the night."  I think you have a skewed view on what is going on in the world. We don't know what's going on in the lives of people and if you listen to that clip, it's quite clear that even the beautiful people are being brought down by this.

 

Sleep is great and I love it as much as anyone, but insomnia is a very common and for many of us, a very brutal reality of withdrawal. I think if you can make peace with this and find another form of coping with your distress, you'll have a much easier go of it. 

 

There are many ways of doing this (just re-read your own Intro thread for a wealth of information), and many of us find that mixing and matching non-drug coping skills is helpful. 

 

I still have a list of favorite movies I want to watch on NetFlix, but I only allow myself to watch them during periods of insomnia. It gives me something to look forward to on those dark, lonely nights when I just can't sleep. 

 

Try to find something to replace your need for sleep-escape. 

[Zant808]

Hi, Zant.

 

My main concern for you is the way you use sleep as a coping mechanism. I think that is going to be your downfall unless you find something to replace it with. 

 

This constant need for oblivion is a dangerous road. This is an interesting clip from an old Real Time show where Bill Maher interviews Dr. Drew about prescription sleep meds: 

 

 

You mentioned in a previous post, "I see too many people having fun and living a normal life.  Their toughest decision is which one of their luxury cars to take out to dinner for the night."  I think you have a skewed view on what is going on in the world. We don't know what's going on in the lives of people and if you listen to that clip, it's quite clear that even the beautiful people are being brought down by this.

 

Sleep is great and I love it as much as anyone, but insomnia is a very common and for many of us, a very brutal reality of withdrawal. I think if you can make peace with this and find another form of coping with your distress, you'll have a much easier go of it. 

 

There are many ways of doing this (just re-read your own Intro thread for a wealth of information), and many of us find that mixing and matching non-drug coping skills is helpful. 

 

I still have a list of favorite movies I want to watch on NetFlix, but I only allow myself to watch them during periods of insomnia. It gives me something to look forward to on those dark, lonely nights when I just can't sleep. 

 

Try to find something to replace your need for sleep-escape. 

 

I watched the clip and it reminded me of when I saw the news coverage of Michael Jackson's death while I was in the state hospital with them unable to give me more than an hour of sleep per night.  I've always viewed sleep as a healthy coping mechanism.  But like the clip says, you can't buy sleep.  My true fear is that I am going to have a seizure, severe illness, psychotic break or die from sleeping only an hour or two per day.  With so many waking hours available, I don't know what to do with the time that has any real purpose.  I do have Netflix and it has almost endless content.  Also, today would be an alright day to go play basketball or run to get some exercise and hopefully lower cortisol levels and increase BDNF.  But then I think that I'm going to get sick from being outside because I only slept two hours.  And then how do I sleep at all if I'm sick?  The nighttime cold medicines aren't powerful enough to put me to sleep and I think most of them interact with either Depakote and/or Klonopin.  I dunno, does that make sense and explain my obsession with sleep?

[Shep]

Your comment that "I've always viewed sleep as a healthy coping mechanism" is the problem.  A coping mechanism is what you do when you CAN'T get to sleep. Again, you're using sleep as an "escape" to ward off other symptoms such as boredom, loneliness, and anxiety (including health anxiety about dying if you don't get a certain amount of sleep).  So you need to find ways of handling those particular symptoms. 

 

Sleeping isn't a coping mechanism any more than eating is a coping mechanism. You have to eat and sleep to survive, but that doesn't make it a coping mechanism. Just because you miss a few meals doesn't mean you'll starve to death any more than not sleeping a full 6 - 8 hours a night means you'll slip into psychosis.

 

That being said, if you have diabetes or hypoglycemia, than skipping meals may very well make you sick. But unless you have some illness for which poor sleep will make you very sick, you'll be okay getting through withdrawal. Many of us go for months with very poor sleep. But eventually, the mind / body restore themselves and sleep comes.

 

Also, keep in mind the kind of sleep you are getting with these meds - they destroy REM sleep, and it can take awhile for a re-set to happen.

 

 

 

Also, today would be an alright day to go play basketball or run to get some exercise and hopefully lower cortisol levels and increase BDNF.  But then I think that I'm going to get sick from being outside because I only slept two hours.  And then how do I sleep at all if I'm sick?  The nighttime cold medicines aren't powerful enough to put me to sleep and I think most of them interact with either Depakote and/or Klonopin.  I dunno, does that make sense and explain my obsession with sleep?

 

 

I went for months with 0 - 2 hours, took the subway to work, worked 8 hours, and took the subway home. I was in contact with literally hundreds of people on my commute, in close contact with a building full of co-workers, and yes, I did catch a few colds along the way.

 

I used peppermint oil for congestion, since I can't handle OTC drugs, and I took a few days off from work for each cold. And I survived just fine. 

 

You're going into catastrophic thinking - "I'll only sleep 2 hours, I'll catch a cold, and I'll die", and that's simply not likely to happen. 

 

Instead, how about, "I'll go outside and play basketball, I'll get plenty of exercise and sunshine, and I may sleep or I may not. If I sleep, great. If not, I'll watch NetFlix, play video games, or rest quietly and let my body rest even if my mind can't."

 

Over time, this mindset becomes your new normal and sleep will be less of an obsession. From your earlier posts, Zant, you've survived a lot of bullying. Don't let insomnia be your new bully. Once you conquer your fear of insomnia, your withdrawal is going to be a whole lot easier. 

 

 

 

[Zant808]

Your comment that "I've always viewed sleep as a healthy coping mechanism" is the problem.  A coping mechanism is what you do when you CAN'T get to sleep. Again, you're using sleep as an "escape" to ward off other symptoms such as boredom, loneliness, and anxiety (including health anxiety about dying if you don't get a certain amount of sleep).  So you need to find ways of handling those particular symptoms. 

 

Sleeping isn't a coping mechanism any more than eating is a coping mechanism. You have to eat and sleep to survive, but that doesn't make it a coping mechanism. Just because you miss a few meals doesn't mean you'll starve to death any more than not sleeping a full 6 - 8 hours a night means you'll slip into psychosis.

 

That being said, if you have diabetes or hypoglycemia, than skipping meals may very well make you sick. But unless you have some illness for which poor sleep will make you very sick, you'll be okay getting through withdrawal. Many of us go for months with very poor sleep. But eventually, the mind / body restore themselves and sleep comes.

 

Also, keep in mind the kind of sleep you are getting with these meds - they destroy REM sleep, and it can take awhile for a re-set to happen.

 

 

 

Also, today would be an alright day to go play basketball or run to get some exercise and hopefully lower cortisol levels and increase BDNF.  But then I think that I'm going to get sick from being outside because I only slept two hours.  And then how do I sleep at all if I'm sick?  The nighttime cold medicines aren't powerful enough to put me to sleep and I think most of them interact with either Depakote and/or Klonopin.  I dunno, does that make sense and explain my obsession with sleep?

 

 

I went for months with 0 - 2 hours, took the subway to work, worked 8 hours, and took the subway home. I was in contact with literally hundreds of people on my commute, in close contact with a building full of co-workers, and yes, I did catch a few colds along the way.

 

I used peppermint oil for congestion, since I can't handle OTC drugs, and I took a few days off from work for each cold. And I survived just fine. 

 

You're going into catastrophic thinking - "I'll only sleep 2 hours, I'll catch a cold, and I'll die", and that's simply not likely to happen. 

 

Instead, how about, "I'll go outside and play basketball, I'll get plenty of exercise and sunshine, and I may sleep or I may not. If I sleep, great. If not, I'll watch NetFlix, play video games, or rest quietly and let my body rest even if my mind can't."

 

Over time, this mindset becomes your new normal and sleep will be less of an obsession. From your earlier posts, Zant, you've survived a lot of bullying. Don't let insomnia be your new bully. Once you conquer your fear of insomnia, your withdrawal is going to be a whole lot easier. 

 

Your explanation about sleep not being a coping mechanism makes more sense now.  Your story is one that shows a level of resilience that is unheard of.  What were your motivators to keep pushing forward instead of giving up completely?  There is a lot of reframing I need to work on.  You make an interesting comparison with humans vs. insomnia as the bully.  The only reason I was able to be bullied by humans is because I thought I was lesser of a person than everyone else.  I didn't understand until college that all humans are actually weak and quite easy to defeat both psychologically and physically.  But I still have not figured out a way to defeat the insomnia bully.  The tools that have been given to me have always been psychiatric drugs or psychological tools and I keep losing the fight.

 

Earlier this week, I saw my GP and I discussed my psychiatric situation with him.  He got me registered for a home sleep study which is apparently something new.  It's supposed to be just as good as going to a regular sleep lab.  Shockingly, there are only 4 medications that are supposed to interfere with the sleep study and Trazodone was one of them...not even the benzos made the list.  The GP told me that I'm definitely addicted to the Klonopin and if I keep increasing my Klonopin dosage to sleep, I will die.  He recommended that I look into medical marijuana to help me.  He has yet to prescribe it to anyone but he said because I have such severe symptoms, that would be his recommendation.  He said that he hopes my psychiatrist would comply as well since I need a PTSD diagnosis in my state to get MM.  However, this leads to another drug, probably safer than the psychiatric medications but I still don't know because I've never tried marijuana since it is so demonized in society.

 

Another thing to note is that I found the exact supplements I took starting in 2006 as recommended by Catherine Creel at the time which ultimately led to my last day of meds which was in July 2007.  There is something that bothers me greatly because I am still seeing the solution from 10 years ago as my only solution now.  I am upset that I am not on lithium instead of Depakote because that was my mood stabilizer at the time.  I'm not sure if switching from Depakote to lithium would have any benefits now.  I've certainly gone on and off Depakote much more than lithium.  I only went off of lithium once.  I am sleeping better now so I believe the worst of the Zyprexa/Vistaril/Trazodone withdrawal is over.  I have no plans to do any other medical reductions but I do plan on adding the supplements one at a time slowly to see how I react.

[scallywag]

Zant, To continue informing your decision about MM, you may want to check MM for interactions with your current medications: Drugs-dot-com Drugs Interactions Checker.

[Shep]

Your explanation about sleep not being a coping mechanism makes more sense now.  Your story is one that shows a level of resilience that is unheard of.  What were your motivators to keep pushing forward instead of giving up completely?  

 

 

 

Motivators? Well, I read Whitaker's "Anatomy" and realized I had been drugged for 30 years for no damn reason. I got pissed. Anger can be a powerful motivator when aimed in the right direction.

 

I have zero respect for psychiatrists, with the exception of the ones like David Healy. Not having to ever see one again is worth the pain of withdrawal. Psychiatrists are like Wall Street execs and oil lobbyists. They are well educated and yet, know nothing. And they leave a wake of destruction in their path. The field of psychiatry has kept progress from happening in the form of ending child abuse, domestic  violence, solving the problems of food injustice, and improving our schools. They have cultivated a culture of drug dependency, and not a culture of self reliance. And all for profit. That's not medicine, it's just another form of structural violence. 

 

Also, I have a lot of curiosity about what it will really "feel" like at a deep and visceral level to know my own emotions. They've been blunted for decades. 

 

But that's my story. Everyone has to come to their own conclusion. You have to find your own path, but when you do, it will give you the motivation you're seeking. The fact that you're asking these questions is a really good sign. It's a type of hero's journey, and we all have to find our own path. But it's worth it. 

 

 

There is a lot of reframing I need to work on.  You make an interesting comparison with humans vs. insomnia as the bully.  The only reason I was able to be bullied by humans is because I thought I was lesser of a person than everyone else.  I didn't understand until college that all humans are actually weak and quite easy to defeat both psychologically and physically.  But I still have not figured out a way to defeat the insomnia bully.  The tools that have been given to me have always been psychiatric drugs or psychological tools and I keep losing the fight.

 

 

 

You are definitely not lesser of a person, and once you master the non-drug coping skills you need for this, you'll be one of the strongest people in your own circle of friends and family. This process makes us stronger. 

 

Your last statement is true up until you found this site - you do have the tools. You know the danger of the drugs and there are links to tons and tons of non-drug coping skills just in your thread alone. No excuse now, Zant. You're in good company with the insomnia and you'll find a lot of support with people here going through the same thing. Unlike when you were dealing with bullies earlier in your life, you don't have to go through this journey alone. 

 

Keep holding your meds until you're stabilized and keep working on whatever non-drug coping skills "speak" to you. Just like with exercise, finding the "right" mix of skills is the key to you sticking with it. 

 

Please keep up the updates. 

[ravijaua]

I also have insomnia and i found doing yoga a few hrs before sleeping helps me a lot. You should try it zant

[Zant808]

Zant, To continue informing your decision about MM, you may want to check MM for interactions with your current medications: Drugs-dot-com Drugs Interactions Checker.

 

I was denied the MM from my psychiatrist even though my GP wants me to try it.  I was told that since I'm bipolar, I would become psychotic if I tried MM.

 

 

Your explanation about sleep not being a coping mechanism makes more sense now.  Your story is one that shows a level of resilience that is unheard of.  What were your motivators to keep pushing forward instead of giving up completely?  

 

 

 

Motivators? Well, I read Whitaker's "Anatomy" and realized I had been drugged for 30 years for no damn reason. I got pissed. Anger can be a powerful motivator when aimed in the right direction.

 

I have zero respect for psychiatrists, with the exception of the ones like David Healy. Not having to ever see one again is worth the pain of withdrawal. Psychiatrists are like Wall Street execs and oil lobbyists. They are well educated and yet, know nothing. And they leave a wake of destruction in their path. The field of psychiatry has kept progress from happening in the form of ending child abuse, domestic  violence, solving the problems of food injustice, and improving our schools. They have cultivated a culture of drug dependency, and not a culture of self reliance. And all for profit. That's not medicine, it's just another form of structural violence. 

 

Also, I have a lot of curiosity about what it will really "feel" like at a deep and visceral level to know my own emotions. They've been blunted for decades. 

 

But that's my story. Everyone has to come to their own conclusion. You have to find your own path, but when you do, it will give you the motivation you're seeking. The fact that you're asking these questions is a really good sign. It's a type of hero's journey, and we all have to find our own path. But it's worth it. 

 

 

There is a lot of reframing I need to work on.  You make an interesting comparison with humans vs. insomnia as the bully.  The only reason I was able to be bullied by humans is because I thought I was lesser of a person than everyone else.  I didn't understand until college that all humans are actually weak and quite easy to defeat both psychologically and physically.  But I still have not figured out a way to defeat the insomnia bully.  The tools that have been given to me have always been psychiatric drugs or psychological tools and I keep losing the fight.

 

 

 

You are definitely not lesser of a person, and once you master the non-drug coping skills you need for this, you'll be one of the strongest people in your own circle of friends and family. This process makes us stronger. 

 

Your last statement is true up until you found this site - you do have the tools. You know the danger of the drugs and there are links to tons and tons of non-drug coping skills just in your thread alone. No excuse now, Zant. You're in good company with the insomnia and you'll find a lot of support with people here going through the same thing. Unlike when you were dealing with bullies earlier in your life, you don't have to go through this journey alone. 

 

Keep holding your meds until you're stabilized and keep working on whatever non-drug coping skills "speak" to you. Just like with exercise, finding the "right" mix of skills is the key to you sticking with it. 

 

Please keep up the updates. 

 

 

Yes, I feel the same way about psychiatrists.  I'm still amazed at your strength.  A lot has happened in the past few weeks.  I'll post the update at the end.

 

I also have insomnia and i found doing yoga a few hrs before sleeping helps me a lot. You should try it zant

 

I have some form of yoga on my external hard drive.  I will have to find it.  There is a yoga studio that is close by as well although I don't think that would help at bedtime.

 

 

As for my update.   It's been a little over 3 months since I was released from the hospital.  Things have been improving over the past two weeks.  I seem to be stabilizing more and more.  I'm getting about 6 hours of sleep per night but it is usually broken up into 2 or 3 hour segments.  Over the weekend, I was mysteriously contacted by a girl I haven't spoken to in many years and she made it very clear that she just got out of a relationship but wants to be in a relationship with me.  Later on that night, I met two additional girls at a concert who want to go on dates.  This is all very surprising to me since usually I'm a ghost to the world.  Well, the thing is that having this type of affection expressed for me seemed to have unblocked a lot of emotions that Depakote numbed up and some of my PSSD symptoms have gone away.

 

The biggest issue here is of course I cannot really date any of these girls because of the Anafranil since it directly causes sexual side effects.  About a week ago I was forced to skip a dose of Anafranil because I ran out due to me being curious and opening one of the pills up to see if I can be compounded.  And yes it can be compounded at a compound pharmacy, I'm just not confident in my abilities to work with it on my own since it isn't simple like Depakote Sprinkles.  But the withdrawal from one night of missing Anafranil was absolute hell.  So I'm thinking to myself that I'm trapped in hell again because now I have three cute girls in their early 20s wanting to go out with me and I'm in my late 30s and it just cannot happen without dropping the Anafranil and probably adding something like Cialis.  My current psychiatrist wants me off of Klonopin only and I'm sure if I were to ask her to drop off of Anafranil she would have no other way to tell me to do it besides cold turkeying it since 25 mg is the lowest dose pill.

 

But I'm not really supposed to even try to come off anything until next year.  It's just that it feels like I'm missing out on my final opportunities to meet girls.  The Prozac was initially supposed to be the miracle cure that would allow me to be social enough to talk to girls.  And yes, it did work that way but at the expense of leading me onto all of those other medications and giving me PSSD.  I just added Peter Gillham's Natural Calm to my supplement regiment last night.  That was something I used during my first recovery.  I feel quite alive today but these feelings are sometimes frightening because I'm used to being numb.  If I wait 3 to 5 years to come off meds like the plan is, I don't think I'm going to look young anymore.  The two girls who didn't know me at first thought I was 22 years old.  I told them the truth about my age and they still didn't care that I was old.  But hmm...if I'm in my 40s...then that's going to start to be creepy.   I just don't know how to proceed with all this.

[Zant808]

I know that this site isn't dedicated to relationship advice but I am really in a jam here.  I need to at least try a relationship and I'm pretty much going to be pressured into having sex on Wednesday.  I'm not sure if Cialis is covered by my insurance or how I would even go about getting it.  If you don't feel comfortable answering that, that's fine.  But I've been feeling well lately.  I want to start tapering off of the tricyclic antidepressant Anafranil.  The capsule does open up and powder does come out.  Is it possible to do reductions off this medication without the use of a compound pharmacy?

[ChessieCat]

From this post by Alto:

 

"Sorry, folks, we generally don't recommend drugs on this site. We cannot predict the effect on nervous systems sensitized by withdrawal.

 

Please take this discussion to one of the PSSD sites. Thank you."

[Zant808]

The following are the supplements I used to successfully come off of all medications back in 2006 - 2007: 

 

1) Buried Treasure VM-100

2) Peter Gillam's Natural Calm Raspberry Lemon

3) Carlson's World's Finest Fish Oil Lemon

4) Vitamin C Foundation Powdered Vitamin C

5) Selenium Trace Minerals

6) Colloidal Trace Minerals

7) Schiff Super Calcium 1200 mg

 

I have only introduced the Natural Calm and Vitamin C into my system over the past few weeks but I have noticed severe improvements in sleep.  I am now sleeping anywhere between 8 and 10 hours per day.  I am able to nap multiple times per day as well.  I have also started the liquid titration with whole milk method to prepare to reduce Klonopin.  While I do not anticipate any voluntary reductions this year, I just wanted to see if my system can handle all of these changes.  My quality of life has improved quite a lot.  However, I am worried that my pdoc is going to pull the plug on Klonopin because the pdoc keeps pushing that I reduce Klonopin soon and at a rate of .25 mg per week.  I'll just enjoy the sleep I'm getting now and go with the flow I guess.

[Zant808]

I'm still doing well in general.  I sleep whenever my body feels it needs to and it adds up to more than enough hours.  Natural Calm, Vitamin C and Fish Oil are the supplements in my system.  I've gotten better at preparing the Klonopin liquid titration with whole milk as well.  I still haven't done any reductions on any of my medications.