simack: Trying to taper off antipsychotic's (saphris/zyprexa).

[simack]

Thanks again fresh, I've emailed yola so hopefully she can still write scripts. I'm having great difficulty finding a doc here who is onboard with tapering, we have a compounding pharmacy here in Bendigo but I think there pretty limited in what they can do, I asked them a while ago about making liquid olanzapine and they sort of just scratched their heads.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Simack,

 

I just did a search on PCCA website:

 

EMILY ROBERTS PHARMACY 9 Lowndes Street Bendigo, VIC 3550

 

LATROBE UNIVERSITY, BENDIGO,  Edwards Road, Bendigo, VIC 3552

[simack]

Thanks chessie, greatly appreciate the help,I'll have a look into it if yola can't write me scripts, I've contacted her and she's willing to Skype again so hopefully all goes well

[simack]

Ok so now I'm thinking the pistiq taper is going to have to wait, damn insomnia keeps coming back in waves, I only managed an hour of sleep last night, I don't get it, it disappeared for a good there weeks when I reinstated seroquel, but now I'm right back to where I was before the reinstatement.

My GP only wore me a script for mirtazapine, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to add more drugs into my already complicated cocktail..

[simack]

Well I went ahead and tried a10% cut on my pristiq... It didn't go well, the first day after the cut, I felt great , i had lots of energy and was in a fairly positive mood all day, I even slept relativity well. Then upon waking yesterday I was right back in deep withdrawal, extreme anxiety, constant urination, inner feelings of terror and zero sleep last night. it was hell.

I went back to my full dose today and I think I'm slowly starting to stabilize..

I'm very overwhelmed by this whole experience, it seems I've become taper resistant and even the slightest change in any of my meds causes chaos in my CNS. It's looking more and more like I'm going to be sick on these meds permanently

[leahy]

Ok so now I'm thinking the pistiq taper is going to have to wait, damn insomnia keeps coming back in waves, I only managed an hour of sleep last night, I don't get it, it disappeared for a good there weeks when I reinstated seroquel, but now I'm right back to where I was before the reinstatement.

My GP only wore me a script for mirtazapine, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to add more drugs into my already complicated cocktail..

 

It makes me so mad that doctors write a script for mirtazapine as a solution for sleep! Who needs another problem? Insomnia makes life miserable. That's for sure.

 

Don't give up, Simack. You can hold and stabilize. When you feel better you can make smaller cuts - 5% or 2.5% or even less. Lots of people do that. A little bit at a time works. It doesn't matter how long it takes.

 

L

[simack]

Thanks leahy, think I'm going to hold for an extended period of time now, and try coming down slower next time

[Fresh]

That could be the go simack , next time try going down by 2.5% or 5% as leahy suggests.

I had that same pattern , straight after the decrease I got hypo-manic symptoms for a week (this was

Feb. last year) then the up-swing took a down-swing for a week , then resolved after a month.

 

If you had only 1 day of upswing , it may be that you would have only had a short time feeling down.

 

Does this doctor want to add mirtazapine? Can you go on another doctor's waiting list?

Remember , you can have a g.p. prescribe , doesn't have to be a psychiatrist.

 

This hiccup doesn't mean you're going to have to stay on meds. for your whole life. It does mean you're going

to need to re-evaluate the "add this-drop that" system you've been experimenting with over the last 6 months.

I reckon a good long hold is the way to go. If you don't sleep , don't take more drugs to change it , just observe it.

If you truly can't work , then you can't work. Your health is more important in the long run , and that

requires a certain amount of space to indulge.

 

bw ,

[simack]

Thanks again fresh, greatly appreciated, I'm a bit worried about my temazepam usage at the moment, I've used it four nights in a row and was wondering if that's long enough to cause addiction.

I've run out of tablets and I've decided not to get any more, should I expect any withdrawal or is this too short of a time frame for archiving to develop?

[Fresh]

Temazepam is safer than most of the benzos as far as I know , you should be fine to stop.

Four days is borderline , depends on the individual.

Please , don't stress about it , or it will literally keep you up worrying.

 

Tackle the non-sleep head-on , be prepared for it and not annoyed. Acceptance and all that.

Maybe spend some time finding some relaxation tracks that you like here

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10981-relaxation-exercises/?hl=relaxation

(by our own songbird)

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6122-guided-meditations-calming-videos-sleep-hypnosis/?view=findpost&p=158853&hl=relaxation

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8666-art-therapy-mandala-circles-adult-coloring-books-etc/?view=findpost&p=155741&hl=relaxation

(Aldi had colouring books for $3:99 recently )

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/53-sleep-problems-that-awful-withdrawal-insomnia/?view=findpost&p=126117&hl=relaxation

[simack]

Just checking back with another question, I've been feeling relativity stable for the past month, so I decided to try cutting the olanzapine by a tiny fraction (-.125mg from 3.75mg). This didn't work out to well, I had the usual symptoms, fractured sleep, feelings of fear, intense anxiety, so after four days, I quickly reinstated and stabilized... What bothers me is, I have made this exact cut ( 3.75 down to 3.625) before with no issues.

My question is, has quitting seroquel cold turkey in December, then reinstating, permanently impacted on my ability to taper off meds?. Or if I hold long enough, will my CNS recover enough to allow me to gradually taper again?.

I'm just praying I haven't permanently impeded my ability to taper, if I need to go slower, its going to take me 10 years to get off these damn drugs.

Feel I'm running out of options here.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Simack,

 

When it comes to these drugs just because we have done something previously and it went okay doesn't mean that doing the same thing at a different time is going to go the same way.  I have read posts of a couple of other members saying that something they have tried recently was not successful when it worked the time before.  And it could be because of any number of reasons or even a combination of factors.  Maybe you didn't hold at the dose long enough, maybe you were unwell at the time, or under some stress, maybe your diet hadn't been as good at this time (these are just examples), and just for a bit of lightness, maybe the wind was blowing the wrong way .  Unfortunately it is not something that anyone of us can answer because we just don't know.

 

I understand how it feels like it's going to take forever.  I was just turning 58 when I started my taper and it's horrid to think that I'll be in my early 60's by the time I'm off because I have had to taper slower than 10%.  I was hoping to be off by my 60th birthday.  But the good news is that I am starting to feel an improvement being on a lower dose and my withdrawal symptoms are mild.  So I am very thankful for that.

 

It may be best to hold for at least 1 or maybe even 2 months before attempting to drop again to give your brain time to do what it needs to do.  And try and be patient and not stress.  I believe that when we stress that it makes the brain have to deal with the stress instead of putting that energy into healing itself.  It sounds weird, but you are doing something (actually better worded saying achieving something) by doing nothing even though it doesn't seem that way.

[simack]

Thanks ChessieCat, I'm going to hold a while longer, then try again at a slower rate

[simack]

Hey all just had a quick question, I accidentally doubled up on my pristiq today, just wondering if I should be worried... Feeling a bit weird today, will stabilize if go back to my usual dose tomorrow?

[nz11]

Sorry to read of this mishap.

Gee normally its oh i forgot to take my dose today scenario.

 

As it is only a once off i would assume it is ok to go back to normal dosage. Are you able to put things in place so this error is avoided.

 

I hope you will be fine, the apple cart is not rocked and any hickups settle quickly .

[simack]

Yeah, I normally go off the days of the week on the blister packs, but stopped checking them recently, think I'll be going back to following them

[simack]

Well I've been three days without sleep now, after about one month of having good sleep, I'm just wondering if accident doubling my dose is to blame, or if it's just a normal part of my recovery.

The thing is the afternoon when I doubled my dose, I actually felt a sense of calm and managed to sleep for 10 hours that night, so now I'm wondering if I should stay at that dose and stabilize for a while then taper down or not

[simack]

I should mention that I was at that dose previously

[simack]

Hey all I just have a quick question regarding Mucuna prureins, I am considering supplementing with it to combat the anhedonia caused by the antipsychotic's, I just wanted to know if it's safe to combine with an SNRI, and two antipsychotic's. I understand that it contains l dopa and has a direct inverse effect to the zyprexa, I am just at breaking point with the anhedonia.

[scallywag]

simack: I'm sorry you haven't yet got a response to your question about the safety of Mucuna prureins with your current prescriptions.  I don't know anything about it.

 

What have you read/heard about it?

 

From the wikipedia page for future reference - yours and mine -

 

OTHER NAMES

Its English common names include velvet bean, Bengal velvet bean, Florida velvet bean, Mauritius velvet bean, Yokohama velvet bean, cowage, cowitch, lacuna bean, Lyon bean, Donkey eye,] monkey tamarind, and Buffalo beans (Note: the last name also refers to Thermopsis rhombifolia.)

from webmd:

Atmagupta, Couhage, Cowitch, Cow-Itch Plant, Dolichos Pruriens, Feijao Macaco, HP 200, HP-200, Kapi Kacchu, Kapikachchhu, Kapikachhu, Kapikachu, Kaunch, Kawach, Kawanch, Kevanch, Kiwach, Macuna, Mucuna hirsuta, Mucuna pruriens, Mucuna Prurient, Mucuna Prurita, Nescafé, Ojo de Buey, Ojo de Venado, Pica-Pica, Pois à Gratter, Pois Mascate, Pois Velu, Stizolobium pruriens, Velvet Bean

 

USES

The seeds of Mucuna pruriens have been used for treating many dysfunctions in Tibb-e-Unani (Unani Medicine). It is also used in Ayurvedic medicine.

The plant and its extracts have been long used in tribal communities as a toxin antagonist for various snakebites. Research on its effects against Naja spp. (cobra), Echis (Saw scaled viper), Calloselasma (Malayan Pit viper) and Bangarus (Krait)  have shown it has potential use in the prophylactic treatment of snakebites.

Dried leaves of M. pruriens are sometimes smoked. it is also used in siddha system of medicine for various purposes..

It has long been used in traditional Ayurvedic Indian medicine in an attempt to treat diseases including Parkinson's disease.

 

PHARMACOLOGY

 

In addition to L-DOPA, it contains minor amounts of serotonin, 5-HTP, nicotine, dimethyltryptamine, bufotenine, and 5-MeO-DMT. M. pruriens could potentially have psychedelic effects, and has purportedly been used in ayahuasca preparations.

... detailed pharmacology about percentages of active agents in the seeds, leaves and ethanolic extract of leaves

[scallywag]

simack, I did a keyword search in your thread and didn't find an interaction report.  Here's yours:  Drug Interaction Report

 

Interactions between your selected drugs

 

Moderate olanzapine quetiapine

Applies to: olanzapine, quetiapine

Using OLANZapine together with QUEtiapine may increase side effects such as drowsiness, blurred vision, dry mouth, heat intolerance, flushing, decreased sweating, difficulty urinating, abdominal cramping, constipation, irregular heartbeat, confusion, and memory problems. Side effects may be more likely to occur in the elderly or those with a debilitating condition. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

Switch to professional interaction data

 

Moderate  olanzapine desvenlafaxine

Applies to: olanzapine, Pristiq (desvenlafaxine)

Using OLANZapine together with desvenlafaxine may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

Switch to professional interaction data

 

Moderate  quetiapine desvenlafaxine

Applies to: quetiapine, Pristiq (desvenlafaxine)

Using QUEtiapine together with desvenlafaxine may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Also avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

Switch to professional interaction data

 

No other interactions were found between your selected drugs.
Note: this does not necessarily mean no interactions exist. ALWAYS consult with your doctor or pharmacist.

 

Therapeutic duplication warnings

Therapeutic duplication is the use of more than one medicine from the same drug category or therapeutic class to treat the same condition. This can be intentional in cases where drugs with similar actions are used together for demonstrated therapeutic benefit. It can also be unintentional in cases where a patient has been treated by more than one doctor, or had prescriptions filled at more than one pharmacy, and can have potentially adverse consequences.

 

Non-phenothiazines Therapeutic duplication

The recommended maximum number of medicines in the 'non-phenothiazines' category to be taken concurrently is usually one. Your list includes two medicines belonging to the 'non-phenothiazines' category:

• olanzapine
• quetiapine

Note: The benefits of taking this combination of medicines may outweigh any risks associated with therapeutic duplication. This information does not take the place of talking to your doctor. Always check with your healthcare provider to determine if any adjustments to your medications are needed.

[simack]

Thanks scallywag, I appreciate your help and time, I've decided not to try the Mucuna for now out of fear of having a bad reaction. I've been holding my doses for a while now, hoping to stabilize before attempting to taper again. I'm not making much progress in this regard, for a while it seemed like I was leveling out, but recently my sleep has gone out the window. Its so frustrating, I'm holding but feel like I'm getting worse.

[scallywag]

simack, pat yourself on the back for making a wise decision to keep your psychoactives simple. You really don't need to complicate things with a plant-based treatment whose side effects are not well known.

 

Now, with your other arm, pat yourself on the back for your choice to continue holding at your current doses.

 

I've read your entire thread.  It might be eye-opening for you to do the same, noting on paper the changes you've made since you started posting at SA. You may want to post that list in this thread.

 

Fresh had some great food for thought in earlier posts to you about sleep, but could apply to any suspect w/d symptom:

...This hiccup doesn't mean you're going to have to stay on meds. for your whole life. It does mean you're going

to need to re-evaluate the "add this-drop that" system you've been experimenting with over the last 6 months.

I reckon a good long hold is the way to go. If you don't sleep , don't take more drugs to change it , just observe it....

Tackle the non-sleep head-on , be prepared for it and not annoyed. Acceptance and all that.

[simack]

I've been feeling horrible lately, after holding my doses for three months my symptoms seem to be getting worse and not better. I don't understand it, I haven't added or changed anything drastic, so I'm at a loss as to what is causing this. I feel like I'm back at the start of withdrawal again.

Sleep is terrible, I'm averaging three intervals of two hours sleep on good night's.

I have new symptoms, frequent urination, pounding heart rate, blurry vision, dizziness and hot flushes/panic waves which may be cortisol surges. Not much fun when my job involves being on a roof all day swinging around a 9"angle grinder.

I'm going to quit weightlifting for a while and see if that helps, I may be placing too much strain on my CNS, also I seem to have developed exercise intolerance.

Hoping this is just a wave and will pass soon.

[scallywag]

Good idea to simplify, simack.  Have you been tracking your symptoms over time?

[simack]

Hey scallywag, no I haven't been keeping a journal of my symptoms. I will start, I don't want to speak too soon but since stopping gym my symptoms seen to have settled slightly.

[simack]

Ok so things have gone from bad to worse for me. I had a bad reaction to a multi b vitamin four days ago, and now my symptoms seem to be getting worse. I'm experiencing a weird dizzy-depersonalized- brain zip- intense anxiety state of consciousness, that is getting worse by the minute. I had to use Valium to sleep last night, something I've been trying to avoid. could this all still be from the multi b , and will it wear off soon? I'm terrified I'm going to end up hospitalised, this is the worst I've been in my 14 months in withdrawal, does anyone have any advice?

[AliG]

Simack.        I'm sorry that you're struggling and it could be the B vitamin that you have reacted to . This is why we advise staying away from stimulating supplements in withdrawal . You said that you had been exercising fairly intensely as well. Perhaps those things combined have pushed you into a wave.

I know myself, I've had to really watch both of these issues. When there is a sleep problem , it's very easy to look for something stimulating to help get you through but then you can end up with the dual problem of over excitement and therefore higher cortisol during the day which can then exacerbate sleeplessness at night. It's a fine balance and one that needs some fine tuning and experimentation.

 

I found cutting out everything stimulating during the day , particularly caffeine and any supplements ( except magnesium ) helpful. In fact I would start sipping magnesium throughout the day to lower cortisol and to prepare for sleep at night. I have found magnesium invaluable during the withdrawal process in all it's forms. ( powder/ oil/ bath salts)

 

With exercise , I had to cut back also. It wasn't hard as I suffered from fatigue , but I stopped pushing myself so hard. I opted for " softer " options like Yoga & walking. ( I used to strength train too.)

Also , just be very careful with Valium. I notice you're taking melatonin. How much do you take? It is often more effective with less side effects , at a low dose starting at .25 mg.

Ali

[simack]

Thanks Alig I greatly appreciate your time and help. I didn't expect a simple multi B vitamin could have such a drastic effect on my Cns. I figured if I had a bad reaction it would be over in a couple of hours not days . I don't want to speak too soon but after taking some cbd oil things seemed to have settled some.

Outside of work, I've cancelled my gym membership and cut my exercise back to 30 min of mild cycling every second day. I've also thrown the Valium in the trash, I hate the idea of using benzos and not having them close by makes me feel at bit more at ease.

I also try to limit myself to two cups of coffee per day but it's a hard addiction for me to kick.

I take way too much melatonin, 5mg instant + 5mg time release, I'm waiting on some 2mg tablets to arrive from the US as you need a script to buy it here in Australia

[AliG]

Simack.     I'm so glad you've kicked the V to the kerb . It's better to go the natural route.  Its good that you're settling.  I understand about the coffee. I have cut down to one cappuccino in the am, and that's it. No diet-coke/ green tea or chocolate either. Rooibos tea is great though . Naturally caffeine - free.

Your cycling sounds good - just keep it gentle.     

Yes. The melatonin is a problem here but you can order online or get a script. I have found it helpful but only at a small dose , as I said. You have been on way too much . Start with an eighth. 

Sometimes you just have to work your way through the symptoms the best way you can . What methods have you tried so far ?  I would advise yoga as a gentler form of exercise. To me it's a moving meditation, which ticks two boxes as I haven't been able to do the cross-legged  " OHM " style meditation . I get bored and tired .   

Let us know how you go .

Ali

[simack]

Hey everybody just wanted to share a quick update. I have officially given up hope of ever being psych drug free. After holding my doses for around three months, I decided to attempt a micro taper of zyprexa. My plan was to make cuts of -.025mg every four days, the first cut went well, and I was feeling great and optimistic about the future. However after making my second cut, I've reverted to complete insomnia and intense anxiety. I really don't know how I'm going to get off these drugs when I can't even handle a micro reduction. I'm on my third day of zero sleep and about to face another painful day of sleep deprived work. I'm only praying that I can sleep tonight if I reinstate my full dose.

Does anyone have any advice on what I should do from here? I'm feeling completely defeated.

[scallywag]

simack: It may be that you need to allow more time than 4 days between micro-cuts. Did you updose to previous after microcut #2?

[simack]

Hey scallywag, I'm planning on updosing tonight, then crossing my fingers and toes that I sleep tonight.

[simack]

Hey everyone, I was just wondering if someone on here could help clarify something for me.I'm having trouble comprehending the concept of kindling and wether it applies not only to benzo's /alcohol/ zdrugs but all forms of psychotropic drugs and brain related trauma.
I understand the priciple that withdrawing from, then reinstating a drug can worsen symptoms, and that it can also make tapering that drug much harder than the previous time.
I'm concerned that I may have kindle...d myself to a point of no longer being able to taper any of the drugs that I'm on.
Pre xmas 2015 I was able to taper zyprexa at a rate of -.1mg a week with minimal symptoms, however I decided to CT 50mg of seroquel over the xmas holidays.
I didnt notice any effects until febuary, then had to reinstate 50mg of seroquel and updose zyprexa to 3.75mg.
I've been holding here since and just recently tried to micro taper the zyprexa, cutting at -.025mg every four days, I made it to the second cut where I am right now and am experiencing complete insomnia.
My question is, is this kindling in action? is it permanent? if I hold even longer will I eventually stabilize enough to be able to taper again?

[KarenB]

For most people a longer hold does help with stabilisation.  Having said that, there are those for whom it doesn't.  You won't really know till you try a long hold.  I am now 7 months into a hold, and only began feeling some solid improvement about a month ago.  So I'm glad I kept holding. 

 

Here's what Alto said about kindling and anti-depressants in Adverse Reactions:  Kindling: 

Kindling is another name for hypersensitive reactions to neurologically active substances. Yes, people who have withdrawn from antidepressants experience this. We have many, many discussions about post-withdrawal hyper-reactivity. This is another reason to care for the nervous system with a slow taper.

 

And these threads talk about healing it: 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2761-neuroplasticity-and-limbic-retraining/

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6175-limbic-kindling-hardwiring-the-brain-for-hypersensitivity/

[simack]

Thanks KarenB I greatly appreciate your help and time. I'm just afraid that by CT'ing seroquel last Xmas, I've made a fatal mistake. I've been holding since February, with occasional failed attempts at tapering in between, and don't Seem to be healing at all.

I'm afraid that this is as good as I can hope for, suffering while holding ,yet cutting even by as little as .05% only makes things worse. My daughter is the only thing keeping me going these days, these drugs are slowly killing me and I feel like I'm powerless to ever be free of them.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come in here venting doom and gloom but I'm not sure how much of this I can endure.