Neon: Venlafaxine withdrawal

[Neon]

I think it is only fair if you focus your energy on others until I get a grip of myself and I am extremely sorry for waisting your time.

[Colonial]

Just know that with even the best taper it can be months to stabilize completely.

Symptoms of different sorts will come and go, and don't always mean we need a drug change.

You can keep a small drug and symptom notebook and over time they will hopefully begin to settle down.

Feel better soon! 🙂

 

[Altostrata]

We have hundreds of people here who have impulsively changed their drugs, @Neon That's how we know it's a mistake.

 

Thank you for the apologies. Now, will you please report your daily notes as requested so many times?

[rubywednesday]

@Neon sorry to hear how much you've been struggling.  I hope you take alto & Colonials advice re stabilising and giving daily updates/updating your signature.  These things are really important so they can give you the correct advice but I can imagine how hard it must be when you're in the thick of it.  Are you still getting the SI?  Do you have a crisis line you can call in Austria?  I really hope your situation improves soon and wish I was more knowledgeable to be able to give you advice, hugs.

 

Ruby x

[rubywednesday]

@Neon, just thought I'd stop by to see how you're doing and let you know I'm thinking of you.

 

Ruby x

[Neon]

@rubywednesday thank you so much, that is really sweet. I am doing okay at the moment 🙂 hoping to sloowwly reduce the benzos as soon as I have been stable for a while. Hope you are also doing okay.

[rubywednesday]

Hi @Neon, yeah I think I'm over the withdrawal now, it wasn't great for a couple of weeks.  Planning on maintaining for a few weeks before I taper again.

[Neon]

Yes I think thats a good idea, you went pretty fast for a while 😊 glad you are over it.

[Toast]

@Neon How have things been? I hope you've been doing okay! I hope you've been able to find a dose that you feel you can stabilize at. Don't ever give up hope and keep pushing through. Because though our symptoms are drug-induced (or withdrawal-induced) it can sometimes feel like there's nothing we can do to improve our situations without changing drugs around. This may be true sometimes, but I think it is probably true less of the time than we think. 

 

I found this video that was helpful to me, it's called "Out of the Blue: Six Non-medication strategies for relieving depression". In particular at 44:31 there is a slide called "How to do a good depression" that was very illuminating to me because I realized I was doing a ton of things on the list. Once I realized that I also realized there were a few changes I could make that did end up being a little bit helpful. 

 

Hang in there ❤️  ❤️ 

 

 

 

[Neon]

Dear @Altostrata, I am sorry I am back again. I managed to stabilize on a dose, relatively at least but in December a few things happened that led me to do a few stupid things aka dose changing. It wasnt entirely my fault though.

 

In November I stopped smoking after stabilizing a bit which led to the development of an insatiable hunger, I know it sounds stupid but this is the Olanzapine hunger and I am really sensitive to it. I felt like I was starving no matter how much I ate; I had several breakdowns and crying spells over it. I didnt know what was happening, I hadn’t changed dose or anything like that. By accident when I was researching how to best lower the Olanzapine without landing in hell, I found several medical papers which explained that when you stop smoking Olanzapine levels rise in your blood by up to 50%. So suddenly I understood. Of course no psychiatrist mentioned this to me when they put me on the drug. So I had to lower the dose. First I went to 3.75mg where I stayed for 3 weeks, suffering the worst imaginable hunger, nothing changed, so I went down to 3mg, I stupidly had gotten impatient just wishing the hunger to subside and closely after I went down to 2.5mg. The hunger subsided. it was a blessing.

Then I had to lower my Lorazepam dosage. During all of this I was abroad and I had planned to lower my Lorazepam dosage, I had a pharmacy make capsules with 7 capsules 0.20mg, 0.15mg, 0.10mg 0.05mg each. since going down from 0.50 to 0.25 entailed no withdrawal whatsoever I thought this was gonna be enough.

So by the time I lowered to 2.5mg Olanzapine I ran out of 0.25mg Lorazepam and since being abroad I couldnt easily get a prescription I decided to just follow the plan and taper. Worst idea ever obviously.

2 days after going down to 0.15 24/7 panic plus insomnia hit. 

I went to a doctor and got a prescription (should have done right away I know) and went back up to 0.25mg but nothing changed.

Since then I am completely bedbound with 24/7 panic and almost complete insomnia. I developed akathisia again on top of it. I am in absolute unimaginable hell again. I feel like I am gonna lose it soon. And I am so angry at myself for putting me in this situation again.

 

I dont know if this is because of the Lorazepam or the Olanzapine withdrawal which hit with delay. I am thinking of going up with the Olanzapine to 3mg again? I dont know what is the best thing to do to stabilize. Would you do nothing and wait it out?

Please help I don’t want to do more stupid decisions.

 

[Neon]

I am very scared to make the akathisia even worse. 

I forgot to mention when I couldnt sleep twice I took an additional dose of Lorazepam 1mg. I have done this on the past without problems but I reacted really weird to it. Totally spaced out. Now coming off it the akathisia increases manyfold.

[Neon]

Out of desperation I took 0.5mg Olanzapine and I feel suddenly way better.

How would you suggest I continue? With 3mg or less.

Thank you so much in advance. 

Sry for the rollercoaster.

[hayduke]

You've been making a lot of changes very quickly.

 

The olanzapine changes alone will be giving your dopamine levels a bit of a roller coaster ride.

 

3mg seems like a reasonable place to try and sit for a while.  Bear in mind you might have to stand the akathisia and other discomfort for a bit longer until things settle down for your nervous system.  I wouldn't make more changes for at least a week or two, and even then, only if you felt you really needed to adjust, and then very gradually.

 

The idea is to hold until your body has found its equilibrium.  It takes a while.  Once there you can plan a gentler taper for a better outcome.

[Neon]

Hey @hayduke thank you so much for stopping by 🙂 

Yes, I know I took my poor nervous system for a rollercoaster ride, I am quite upset with myself for it.

The akathisia is way better already, the panic too, just feel a bit restless but I think that will take a while to settle.

I just wondered it I have such an improvement with 0.5mg taken once before the drug has built up in my system, if taking less than 3mg might also do it.

I am just scared of that hunger, it made me really suicidal too.

Thanks again

[hayduke]

You can try 2.5mg, sure. Since you were changing the lorazepam the most, it's probably what to focus on anyway.

 

Noting that I have had paradoxical reactions to benzos after being put on aripiprazole briefly.  I used to take them occasionally but l found they just make me more anxious after that.  

 

Tonight I took an epsom salts foot bath and some hemp powder for omega 3 since I don't like fish oil.  Always seems to help my comfort and sleep.  Cheers

[Neon]

I think 2.5 is not enough, that is what I have been taking for over two weeks, I thought maybe 2.7 or 2.8 but am not sure.

I am not really an expert in how those medicines work and how long build up is etc

[Neon]

after taking my nightly dose of 3mg Olanzapine and 0.25mg Lorazepam the akathisia is back.. can it be that I am really reacting paradoxical to the Lorazepam? It used to ease the akathisia 

[Neon]

I took 1mg again.. I am feeling so so bad, I have such intense SI surges. I dont know how to survive this.

[Altostrata]

Why did you think you had to go off the benzo while you were reducing olanzapine? This destabilized your nervous system.
 

If I were you, I'd stay at 3mg olanzapine.

 

What is your daily drug schedule? 

 

Divide your lorazepam into 2 daily doses, take 12 hours apart. Do not take it with olanzapine or within 2 hours of olanzapine. Keep your drug schedule consistent, it will take a week to settle down. Please let us know how you're doing.

 

[Neon]

Dear @Altostratathank you for giving valuable advice.

I dont have a good reason why I did it, I was just lazy and since tapering went so well so far I thought why not.

Very big mistake.

 

Do you think I can go with higher Lorazepam dosages for a while? it is the only thing that somewhat helps with the akathisa. Like 2x 1mg or should I stick with the 0.25mg and pray I somehow survive the akathisia.

[Neon]

Its just on the thick of it I feel so suicidal and close to going insane that I dont really trust myself.

 

A plan for the benzo would be to take 2x daily 1mg for a week,

then 2x daily 0.5mg for another week and then go back to 2x daily 0.25.. I dont know if that works though, what do you think?

[Neon]

and why should I take the 0.25 twice daily? I never had interdose withdrawal with taking it once.

[hayduke]

22 hours ago, Neon said:

I think 2.5 is not enough, that is what I have been taking for over two weeks, I thought maybe 2.7 or 2.8 but am not sure.

I am not really an expert in how those medicines work and how long build up is etc

 

Main thing now is to hold steady.  You won't get instant relief from the 'right' dosage.  If you go to 3mg and stabilise there you will feel better before long, but it won't be overnight.  Your body will take some time to catch up.

 

Changing the dosage of either drug is likely to stir up akathisia, and it will take a while to settle down again, but until you hold and sit it out, it's unlikely to abate.

 

I wouldn't suggest planning to change your benzo dosage until you're steady either, for that same reason. 

 

 

[Altostrata]

I've given you my best guess about what to do. You may feel better with a distributed dose of the benzo.

[manymoretodays]

On 1/16/2022 at 1:16 AM, Neon said:

In November I stopped smoking after stabilizing a bit which led to the development of an insatiable hunger, I know it sounds stupid but this is the Olanzapine hunger and I am really sensitive to it. I felt like I was starving no matter how much I ate; I had several breakdowns and crying spells over it. I didnt know what was happening, I hadn’t changed dose or anything like that. By accident when I was researching how to best lower the Olanzapine without landing in hell, I found several medical papers which explained that when you stop smoking Olanzapine levels rise in your blood by up to 50%. So suddenly I understood. Of course no psychiatrist mentioned this to me when they put me on the drug. So I had to lower the dose. First I went to 3.75mg where I stayed for 3 weeks, suffering the worst imaginable hunger, nothing changed, so I went down to 3mg, I stupidly had gotten impatient just wishing the hunger to subside and closely after I went down to 2.5mg. The hunger subsided. it was a blessing.

Then I had to lower my Lorazepam dosage. During all of this I was abroad and I had planned to lower my Lorazepam dosage, I had a pharmacy make capsules with 7 capsules 0.20mg, 0.15mg, 0.10mg 0.05mg each. since going down from 0.50 to 0.25 entailed no withdrawal whatsoever I thought this was gonna be enough.

So by the time I lowered to 2.5mg Olanzapine I ran out of 0.25mg Lorazepam and since being abroad I couldnt easily get a prescription I decided to just follow the plan and taper. Worst idea ever obviously.

2 days after going down to 0.15 24/7 panic plus insomnia hit. 

I went to a doctor and got a prescription (should have done right away I know) and went back up to 0.25mg but nothing changed.

Since then I am completely bedbound with 24/7 panic and almost complete insomnia. I developed akathisia again on top of it. I am in absolute unimaginable hell again. I feel like I am gonna lose it soon. And I am so angry at myself for putting me in this situation again.

 

Hey Neon,

 

Well, good for you with quitting smoking.  Did you taper?  I mean it helps when coming off cigarettes....it does.  I am an ex-smoker as well, and very proud of myself.  I tapered, and then went with a patch and also the quit line.  I really had a good experience with the quit line people, and can re-engage with them again in March if I want to.  Very helpful..

 

I think you must make note and plan better for your travel.  You are a very lucky young person I think to be able to do travel and things.

 

I got that weird hunger thing from quetiapine/Seroquel......I could have eaten cardboard boxes.  It hit right after I took my dose.  And then both quetiapine and olanzapine messed with me metabolically a lot.  I'd put on a pound of weight each day, my liver got thrown off, oh the joys.  And it all reversed itself too, I should add.  The changes the drugs did to me, metabolic syndrome type stuff, reversed for me, when I got off them.  Best to taper though.......always best to taper.  You cannot convince me of any other way now.

 

 

On 1/16/2022 at 5:03 PM, Altostrata said:

Divide your lorazepam into 2 daily doses, take 12 hours apart. Do not take it with olanzapine or within 2 hours of olanzapine. Keep your drug schedule consistent, it will take a week to settle down. Please let us know how you're doing.

 

So what was wrong with this plan?  It says divide your lorazepam into 2 daily doses......NOT double your lorazepam dose.

And then were you taking 3 mg or 2.5 mg of the olanzapine?

 

Sounds like, once again, you need stable dosing, consistent dosing for a little while instead of shifting dosing frequently......timing and the dose amount.

 

How has it gone the last couple of days.

Can you note when and what you've taken, and then how you are doing?

I agree, that with consistent dosing you should probably stabilize pretty quickly, but not over night, or instantly.......one has to be tactically patient, extremely so.

And then were you tapering at all before you came back or just holding steady.  Oh nevermind, I guess it is in your narratives, starting in November what you were doing up until now.

 

Do update when you are doing good too.  Don't just pop in with the bad times, and Waves.

 

I hope all is well enough Neon. 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

Do consider non-drug coping too, always Neon.  I'm just going to throw in the weighted blanket link here too.  I don't know if I gave it to you in the past or not.  They can be so helpful:

weighed blankets and bed tents for restlessness, akathisia, insomnia, and anxiety

Edited January 21, 2022 by manymoretodays

[Neon]

Hello @Altostrata@haydukeand @manymoretodays

so an update,

for a week I have been taking 75mg Venlafaxine, 3mg Olanzapine and 1mg Lorazepam (divided into two doses on taken at 8am, on at 8pm)

 

I know you didnt tell me to increase the Lorazepam but the akathisia was so strong with such intense SI surges again, I just couldnt take it.

 

I thought about holding for another week and then trying to cut the Lorazepam dosages in half, by then hopefully the akathisia settled. Or would you recommend staying where I am at? Then I would become dependent on the higher benzo dose though.

 

@manymoretodaysI havent changed anything since September and wasnt planning on it either apart of coming off the Benzo.. then the smoking cessation messed up my plans.

I have a weighted blanket and I love it. My akathisia is mostly mental though so it doesnt help too much with that.

I quit smoking cold turkey, it was really rough but nothing compared to drug withdrawal.

[Neon]

The only problem is the benzo is actually masking the akathisia and the panic so I dont know whether it is still there or not.. my sleep is pretty bad,I get around 3 hours per night, and have some residual anxiety

Thank you so much for all your input and help.. I value it very highly!

Promise to post positive updates in the future too.

[Altostrata]

@Neon I went back through your Intro topic. We have requested daily notes 20 times by my count. We cannot tell what's going on without them. Do not tag me again until you post daily notes.

[manymoretodays]

On 1/23/2022 at 2:25 AM, Neon said:

I thought about holding for another week and then trying to cut the Lorazepam dosages in half, by then hopefully the akathisia settled. Or would you recommend staying where I am at? Then I would become dependent on the higher benzo dose though.

 

HeyNeon,

And Notes, notes, notes!!!   You remember how to, don't you?  Here's the linkage to refresh how to:

Keep notes on paper about your daily drug dosing and symptom pattern.

 

......and so hopefully you are HOLDING steady now.  You might get that pm dose of lorazepam/ativan moved out from your olanzapine/zyprexa, so that they are 2 hours apart.  You may already be dependent on your lorazepam.......sometimes even with intermittent usage it happens.......the dependency sets in.  I'm seeing it in your signature from at least last summer.  Try not to freak out about it though, or attempt any rapid tapers right now.  

 

I am hoping your sleep improves, as I know that can make a world of difference.  6 hours would be better than your present 3 hours.  Sometimes it can be something simple too, that helps promote sleep.  Turn off your electronics at least, for several hours before bedtime.  I do better without any techno in my sleeping area too........I have your basic alarm clock and that's it.  I even keep my phone plugged in and charging elsewhere most nights.  I did used to do okay with the television droning on in the background, however, for a time period when I just was really funky doodle with symptoms.  So there is that.  

And the linkage with more ideas:

Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

(scroll down the from ^ ,and you'll find the indexed list for sleep problems)

Okay and best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by manymoretodays

[Neon]

I will do my best to post notes from now on. I am beyond feeling bad, the akathisia is so strong and constant I pray for death, I am not sleeping..

 

I wonder if the aka could be increased due to the olanzapine updose.. shortly after I wasnt so bad but now it is terrible.. I dont know how to survive this.

 

05:30 wake up with strong akathisia, was only half sleeping

07:30 spend two hours in agony, every minute feels like an hour

8:30 take 0.5mg Lorazepam

feel marginally better

10:00 take Venlafaxine 75mg, cave in and take another 0.5mg Lorazepam, feel a tiny bit better

writh in agony all day, not knowing how to survive

15:00 manage to eat some rice porrige

18:00 eat a banana

19:00 take 1mg Lorazepam

21:00 take 3mg Olanzapine

day was pure hell, only survived because of Lorazepam but it works a lot less well than it used to.. can that happen when you try to come off sth?

 

[Neon]

I cant hold steady, I am in so much agony, I couldnt keep at the 0.5mg Lorazepam. I am sorry, I did such a mess to myself.

[Neon]

00:00-08:00 wake up, (wake several times during the night but remain somewhat sleeping until then)

10:00 take 75Venlafaxine, 1mg Lorazepam

11:00 get anxiety (3/10)

12:00 eat lunch

anxiety remains between 3-5 all day, apart of that much better
18:00 eat dinner

19:00 1mg Lorazepam

21:00 3mg Olanzapine

21:30 go to bed

 

So I have been much better today, I only dont understand why I have this anxiety when I am taking high doses of the benzo.

[Neon]

@Altostrata

I am back to akathisia, even though I took the Lorazepam. I dont know what to do.

At this point I am almost ready to stop the Lorazepam and go to 2.5 with the Olanzapine since I think I might have a paradox reaction. I just dont know what to do. I feel so incredible horrific.

will post more daily notes

[Altostrata]

Has there even been a week since June 11, 2021 that you haven't switched your drugs around?

 

You're taking lorazepam at random times? Why are you taking lorazepam at the same time as venlafaxine?

[Neon]

Between September and December I did not switch anything around.

Then I only did because I stopped smoking.

I am now in so much distress that I cannot control myself but am doing my best.

For more than a week I did not change anything and was doing better and then suddenly akathisia like never before hits me. And out of pure desperation I took more Lorazepam but am now again trying to keep it stable at 2mg per day.

 

I dont know what is causing this and if there is anything I can do to improve my situation at this point or if I simply have to stick it out.

 

11:00-03:00 sleep, wake up with akathisia

08:00 akathisia better, lie back down

09:00 take 1mg Lorazepam

09:15 akathisia is worse again, dont know if from Lorazepam, it helped previously
10:00 take 75mg Venlafaxine

akathisia constantly all day long, less severe than two days ago, somewhere at 7/10

12:00 eat some lunch

18:00 eat a banana

20:00 take 1mg Lorazepam

21:00 take 3mg Olanzapine

[Neon]

sry it was the other way around

20:00 3mg Olanzapine, akathisia a little bit less I think, but not sure

21:00 1mg Lorazepam