Flowers: tapering citalopram

[apace41]

 

Interesting points Andy, I can definitely relate to having a lowered immune system on these drugs.

 

It makes no difference how many supplements I take either.

 

Still homeopathy is what I'm trying out next.

 

JC

 

 

Well, JC, seeing as you've "opened the door" I will expand my thoughts a little further.  

 

I believe that the modifications made to the serotonin system by the SSRIs are not confined to the brain but also take effect elsewhere in the body.  The primary import of this is that they work on serotonin in the gut which is where 90% of our serotonin resides.  Because, as science is now finding, the gut is "mission control" for your immune system, I believe that SSRIs frequently cause damage to the immune system that manifests differently in different people.  Notably, many of us "test" as having compromised immune systems, elevated autoimmune markers, etc.  Of course this could be correlation and not causation but it certainly makes me raise my eyebrows.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Martina23]

Interesting thought, I have never thought of that!

[Flowers]

 

The headcold has made me feel rough again. Off balance and feeling like I have motion sickness along with exhaustion and low mood. 

 

Flowers,

 

I'm sorry you are struggling still.  I know the off balance feeling oh so well.  I have that feeling of being "slightly off" much of the time.  Very disturbing.  Hang in there and it will pass soon.

 

I have no direct experience with shingles but as others have said it is a definite indication of the problems that have been caused in your immune system.  I don't want to get too far off topic and on a tangent, but it is my distinct theory that SSRI use exacerbates the potential for immune system compromising and, in many cases, results in people getting onto the "autoimmune spectrum."  I know of one person, for example, that had horrible asthma on her SSRI and, as she lowered her dose, the asthma went completely away.  I don't know if we will EVER know all the damage these drugs cause.

 

In any event, Flowers, stay strong and you should return to baseline soon.

 

Best,

 

Andy

 

Andy thank you!

 

Well as they say it never rains but it pours!!

 

I think you have a good point with SSRI's interfering with our immune systems especially anything involved with the nervous system. They are true poison! 

 

I never get head colds and have had so many since WD hit. Am juicing oranges from my friends trees - hoping for the best! 

 

Serotonin in the gut?! I thought it was made in the brain. I have a lot to learn.

 

I have had tummy upsets in this wave so is that an indication something is wrong with my gut health? I think you were taking probiotics JC?

[apace41]

 

Serotonin in the gut?! I thought it was made in the brain. I have a lot to learn.

 

I have had tummy upsets in this wave so is that an indication something is wrong with my gut health? I think you were taking probiotics JC?

 

 

Here is some food for thought, Flowers.

 

https://www.caltech.edu/news/microbes-help-produce-serotonin-gut-46495

[Flowers]

 

 

Serotonin in the gut?! I thought it was made in the brain. I have a lot to learn.

 

I have had tummy upsets in this wave so is that an indication something is wrong with my gut health? I think you were taking probiotics JC?

 

 

Here is some food for thought, Flowers.

 

https://www.caltech.edu/news/microbes-help-produce-serotonin-gut-46495

 

Thanks Andy

 

Am going to look at it now.

[Junglechicken]

 

...

 I have no direct experience with shingles but as others have said it is a definite indication of the problems that have been caused in your immune system.  I don't want to get too far off topic and on a tangent, but it is my distinct theory that SSRI use exacerbates the potential for immune system compromising and, in many cases, results in people getting onto the "autoimmune spectrum."  I know of one person, for example, that had horrible asthma on her SSRI and, as she lowered her dose, the asthma went completely away.  I don't know if we will EVER know all the damage these drugs cause.

...

Andy thank you!

 

Well as they say it never rains but it pours!!

 

I think you have a good point with SSRI's interfering with our immune systems especially anything involved with the nervous system. They are true poison! 

 

I never get head colds and have had so many since WD hit. Am juicing oranges from my friends trees - hoping for the best! 

 

Serotonin in the gut?! I thought it was made in the brain. I have a lot to learn.

 

I have had tummy upsets in this wave so is that an indication something is wrong with my gut health? I think you were taking probiotics JC?

 

Yes Flowers, a powerful probiotic - 200 billion count.

 

My acid reflux has stopped since the 7 day probiotic course finished.

 

I have resumed taking a supplement called "SporeGone" for my gut health, but cannot say whether it really works or not.

 

As for tummy upsets..... They have cropped up more than usual in January and were probably triggered by a stressful Xmas (not to mention rich food), lol!

[Junglechicken]

I believe that the modifications made to the serotonin system by the SSRIs are not confined to the brain but also take effect elsewhere in the body.  The primary import of this is that they work on serotonin in the gut which is where 90% of our serotonin resides.  Because, as science is now finding, the gut is "mission control" for your immune system, I believe that SSRIs frequently cause damage to the immune system that manifests differently in different people.  Notably, many of us "test" as having compromised immune systems, elevated autoimmune markers, etc.  Of course this could be correlation and not causation but it certainly makes me raise my eyebrows.

Thank you Andy for setting out your thoughts on this.

 

My question would be....how does one restore a "compromised immune system"?

 

I guess even the most powerful probiotics alone can't get it back to "normal"?

[apace41]

 

Thank you Andy for setting out your thoughts on this.

 

My question would be....how does one restore a "compromised immune system"?

 

I guess even the most powerful probiotics alone can't get it back to "normal"?

 

 

I think the best way to restore gut health is to try a very anti-inflammatory diet for a period of time, say 21 days or so.  Cut out all gluten, dairy and sugar for that period and then reintroduce but keep them very low.  If you react to any of them keep them out of the diet for the most part.  I would also add in drinking bone broth and fermented foods if you like them (yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchee, kombucha, etc.).  Add in probiotics and prebiotic foods and you can restore your gut over a period of time.

 

Best,

 

Andy 

[Flowers]

Very interesting read Andy. Could explain my stomach issues. Let's just say when the shaking and giddiness is at it's worst everything goes straight through me.

 

Am eating a very bland diet and will see if I can get some probiotics.

 

Thank you again.

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Good News at last!

 

Saw GP today and he had a look at rash on neck. Told me it is NOT shingles just dermatitis. I am so relieved as know that shingles can be very debilitating.

 

He reckons my immune system is compromised! 

 

He did offer to do some blood tests to check out thyroid, diabetes etc and is running a full list of checks as saw my hands shaking! I haven't told him I am tapering Cit and am in a wave - he wouldn't get it!!

 

It's always good to have a check up as my last one was 2 years ago when WD hit. I had the same symptoms then  as I am getting in this wave  so they probably won't find anything -  I hope.

 

Felt a bit more at ease when I  left the surgery as all I seem to do at the moment is obsess about my symptoms and what is causing them when I know it's WD! I know that there are lots of you out there like me.

[Flowers]

P.S. Felt well enough to stop off at supermarket with husband to get some probiotic yoghurt drinks, yoghurt and chicken to roast and then make chicken soup.

 

Thanks for the tips Andy!

[apace41]

Felt a bit more at ease when I  left the surgery as all I seem to do at the moment is obsess about my symptoms and what is causing them when I know it's WD! I know that there are lots of you out there like me.

 

I'm in the boat with you, Flowers.  I think part of it is that, notwithstanding the incredible amount of information on SA that substantiates the various symptoms that arise in withdrawal, it is so hard to fathom that all the disparate problems all come from the same thing.  That swiftly leads to "there must be something else wrong with me."  If you have, as I do, underlying health anxiety that has been exacerbated by withdrawal, it escalates rather quickly and can become a veritable obsession.

 

I'm glad you don't have shingles!

 

Best,

 

Andy

 

P.S.  Just saw your further post -- happy to help!

[Flowers]

 

Felt a bit more at ease when I  left the surgery as all I seem to do at the moment is obsess about my symptoms and what is causing them when I know it's WD! I know that there are lots of you out there like me.

 

I'm in the boat with you, Flowers.  I think part of it is that, notwithstanding the incredible amount of information on SA that substantiates the various symptoms that arise in withdrawal, it is so hard to fathom that all the disparate problems all come from the same thing.  That swiftly leads to "there must be something else wrong with me."  If you have, as I do, underlying health anxiety that has been exacerbated by withdrawal, it escalates rather quickly and can become a veritable obsession.

 

I'm glad you don't have shingles!

 

Best,

 

Andy

 

P.S.  Just saw your further post -- happy to help!

 

I really feel for you Andy if you have had these anxiety issues made worse by WD. I think I may have always had health anxiety too  and was getting it confused with travel anxiety - I am trying to work this out with my new therapist.

 

Take care and thanks for all your help.

 

Flowers xxx 

[direstraits]

glad you don't have shingles,Flowers!you don't need that on top of everythimg else you're dealing with.

 

my Mom would get scaly itchy patches on back of her neck.I think it was psoriasis...probably from the stress of dealing with my Dad.    .

 

xo

[Flowers]

glad you don't have shingles,Flowers!you don't need that on top of everythimg else you're dealing with.

 

my Mom would get scaly itchy patches on back of her neck.I think it was psoriasis...probably from the stress of dealing with my Dad.    .

 

xo

Thanks DS - it was a huge relief!

 

I think mine could be stress related. I have a husband to deal with too!lol!

 

Sending love

 

xxxxx

[Athena]

Flowers,

 

YES! I sympathise so much about worrying about our symptoms... And as Andy says, they affect so many of our systems, at so many different levels... Plus with the withdrawal anxiety, kind of hard to be zen about it all... I'm glad the appointment made you feel better afterwards.

 

Also glad you didn't have the shingles. I did get it last November. I didn't have it too strongly, but enough to wreck my fragile health balance...

 

Take good care,

 

Athena

[Flowers]

Flowers,

 

YES! I sympathise so much about worrying about our symptoms... And as Andy says, they affect so many of our systems, at so many different levels... Plus with the withdrawal anxiety, kind of hard to be zen about it all... I'm glad the appointment made you feel better afterwards.

 

Also glad you didn't have the shingles. I did get it last November. I didn't have it too strongly, but enough to wreck my fragile health balance...

 

Take good care,

 

Athena

Hi Athena. Nice to meet you and thank you for visiting my thread.

 

So sorry you got Shingles - are you feeling better now?

[Athena]

Nice to meet you too Flowers.

 

I am feeling better from the shingles, yes. But either that was too much and made the WD much worse, or the WD was too much and caused me to have shingles... Anyway all this was too much and I have been in a difficult wave since.

 

But ! we will get better, one good news at a time!

[Martina23]

Flowers I was so happy that you wrote me, today I really needed it. I am still puzzled about this withdrawal. I never know if it is better or worse or actually the same.

 

I am also happy that you dont have shingles. One problem less. Make yourself all the tests but dont let the doctor prescribe you any unnecessary medicaments. They like to scare people with diagnoses in foreign languages and then start already prescribing. So take everything he says with grain of salt.

[Flowers]

Nice to meet you too Flowers.

 

I am feeling better from the shingles, yes. But either that was too much and made the WD much worse, or the WD was too much and caused me to have shingles... Anyway all this was too much and I have been in a difficult wave since.

 

But ! we will get better, one good news at a time!

I think that Shingles can be very debilitating and painful. So glad you are feeling better. Shame that you are still in a wave though. Keep strong and we will get through this as you say.

 

Hugs

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Flowers I was so happy that you wrote me, today I really needed it. I am still puzzled about this withdrawal. I never know if it is better or worse or actually the same.

 

I am also happy that you dont have shingles. One problem less. Make yourself all the tests but dont let the doctor prescribe you any unnecessary medicaments. They like to scare people with diagnoses in foreign languages and then start already prescribing. So take everything he says with grain of salt.

Thanks for the good advice Martina. It will be good to be checked out but don't worry I am not taking anything without very serious consideration.

 

I hope these feelings pass quickly for you. We think we are over it and then wham it all comes back and that is very upsetting I know.

 

Hugs

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Please Mods I need some advice.

 

It has been 7 weeks now since this wave came crashing over me. I haven't tapered since my last cut beginning November last year.

 

My symptoms have been fairly constant. Some fade and then come back. I am at the end of my tether here now and am wondering whether an updose to the dose before my last cut would be worth trying?

 

SYMPTOMS THAT HAVE GONE:

Insomnia.

Inner restlessness and needing to keep moving.

 

 

SYMPTOMS THAT ARE PRESENT EVERYDAY:

 

Dizziness/feeling like motion sickness but only when I am moving not sitting.

Unstable and weak on my feet and am now having to use a stick to walk.

Heart palps/cortisol spikes first thing in morning. Some palps during day.

Exhaustion.

Anxiety/Depression - intensity varies during the day. Worse in mornings.

Muscle twitching in legs.

 

SYMPTOMS THAT COME AND GO:

 

Shaking and jerky movements usually in hands.

Nausea and tummy upsets.

Brain fog.

Headaches.

 

These are all the same as I suffered when first in WD 2 years ago. I updosed then and in a week noticed a marked improvement.

 

I am using all the coping skills I have....PMR, Mindfulness,CBT,Short walk/stagger! each day.

 

The dizziness and weakness/unsteadiness on my feet is the worst symptom as it is affecting my fitness and with not moving much am losing strength in my body. I am usually a very fit and active person.

[direstraits]

Oh Flowers,I'm so sorry you're suffering so much...I just want to let you know you're in my thoughts and I hope you can get this. sorted out soon.

 

you've been so supportive of me and I hate to see you like this...hope the Mods can help you.

 

much Love and Hugs, ds

[Flowers]

I just wanted to add that I changed from a generic to another generic immediately after my last taper but I didn't feel any immediate extreme effects.

I also had some rum in hot toddies for a cold just before the wave. I also used a topical steroid cream for a few days just before the wave.

 

Maybe one or some of these have contributed to this wave but there is no way of knowing.

[Martina23]

Maybe it is this changing of generic, because you dont know how much concentration they really had

[Martina23]

I would stay on the dose you have already for another three months or until it settles - but I am sure the mods will have other opinion

[nick1990]

Im sorry things are still really hard right now flowers. You have been so good to me during my petty cries for help haha so thank you .x. things will sort themselves out, and the mods will be able to advise you on the best course of action.

 

Just a thought. I've been reading a book and the doctor speaks about the dangers of steroids, even in topical application. They are immunosuppressive. The combination of this, alcohol and a change in brand are undoubtedly the cause of this wave. . Its going to get better and then your tapering will continue this is just a speed bump and you'll get through it, just as you have previously.

 

Sending love

Xxx

[apace41]

Flowers,

 

I'm sorry to hear you continue to struggle in this current wave. It is easy for me, sitting where I am and not living in your body, to tell you to simply "hold on for a couple more months" because it will correct itself shortly.  I believe that you will ultimately come back to homeostasis but I can't (nor can anyone) tell you when.  And, in the meantime, this is affecting your daily life.

 

I'm not one to recommend updosing without giving it careful consideration.  However, given the fact that you have held for a while and you are not seeing any improvement (please confirm this) I would be in support of an updose to, say, 20.5.  I would not go all the way back up to 21 at this stage, rather I would split the difference.

 

While it is always hard to take any step back, sometimes a step back allows us to take several steps forward.

 

I think it will help both the body and the mind if you take a slight step back.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[AmyK]

Flowers, you are in my thoughts. I know it's so scary, but it will change. We are here for you.

 

I cant give you advice, just want to point out (if I am right?) that it was a while since you dropped. Just consider this, if you want to updose. The body is struggling for balance now. And it will find it.

 

Many hugs!

[Frogie]

Flowers:

 

I wish you well in whatever you decide to do.

 

You such a kind and caring person, and we all want you better.

 

Let me know what you decide to do.

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[lillylou]

Hmm theres no way of knowing but i suspect the generic switch, if you find it unbearable you could possibly try to updose a tiny bit? And see if you see any improvements ,Im not sure though:s Im shocked at how sensitive our brains can be to this type of thing i hope this passes soon for you.

[Flowers]

Hi Amy K,Lillylou,Martina,Frogie, Nick, DS

 

Thanks for caring about me and visiting me here. I really need you guys right now! Your advice is always welcome.

 

Love and hugs

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Flowers,

 

I'm sorry to hear you continue to struggle in this current wave. It is easy for me, sitting where I am and not living in your body, to tell you to simply "hold on for a couple more months" because it will correct itself shortly.  I believe that you will ultimately come back to homeostasis but I can't (nor can anyone) tell you when.  And, in the meantime, this is affecting your daily life.

 

I'm not one to recommend updosing without giving it careful consideration.  However, given the fact that you have held for a while and you are not seeing any improvement (please confirm this) I would be in support of an updose to, say, 20.5.  I would not go all the way back up to 21 at this stage, rather I would split the difference.

 

While it is always hard to take any step back, sometimes a step back allows us to take several steps forward.

 

I think it will help both the body and the mind if you take a slight step back.

 

Best,

 

Andy

Andy, thank you so much for your insight into my plight and your invaluable advice.

 

I am very sad that I am even considering updosing but with the dizziness when I move I am losing my mobility and really don't want to let that happen. Not being able to get out and walk everyday is not good for my mood and I feel it could drift into depression.

I confirm that I am not seeing any improvement and would say that the past few days I have been worse.

 

I feel that I would like to give a small updose a go. It goes against every bone in my body to do this! My aim is to get stable and continue tapering. I know there are not any guarantees that an updose will help but I feel I have to try something.

 

So I will take the plunge and reduce my dose tonight and pray that it works.

 

Best Wishes

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Just want to record that due to debilitating dizziness and unsteadiness on feet amongst other symptoms that haven't resolved over the last 7 weeks I have decided to updose to 20.5 mgs Cit.

[apace41]

 So I will take the plunge and reduce my dose tonight and pray that it works.

 

I am assuming you meant "increase" your dose?  

 

Give it a couple of days and hopefully that will help you back to your baseline.

 

One other thought -- as one who suffers from the sense of unsteadiness -- is to see if you can determine if the unsteadiness is "objective" or "subjective".  By this I mean, if you stand with your eyes close do you completely lose your balance or do you simply feel unsteady?  In my case it is largely subjective -- I feel dizzy and off balance but I can pass balance tests of even higher magnitude.  If it is more subjective I have different thoughts for you than if it is objective.

 

Oh, and NEVER EVER feel badly that you have to increase to try to control symptoms.  This process is NOT for the faint of heart.  The fact that you are doing this makes you a warrior in my book.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Flowers]

 

So I will take the plunge and reduce my dose tonight and pray that it works.

 

I am assuming you meant "increase" your dose?  

 

Give it a couple of days and hopefully that will help you back to your baseline.

 

One other thought -- as one who suffers from the sense of unsteadiness -- is to see if you can determine if the unsteadiness is "objective" or "subjective".  By this I mean, if you stand with your eyes close do you completely lose your balance or do you simply feel unsteady?  In my case it is largely subjective -- I feel dizzy and off balance but I can pass balance tests of even higher magnitude.  If it is more subjective I have different thoughts for you than if it is objective.

 

Oh, and NEVER EVER feel badly that you have to increase to try to control symptoms.  This process is NOT for the faint of heart.  The fact that you are doing this makes you a warrior in my book.

 

Best,

 

Andy

 

Sorry Andy - silly me! My poor brain is not functioning! of course I meant increase! Doh!

 

Well, I have just stood with my eyes shut for at least 15 seconds and didn't feel unsteady at all. The unsteadiness only kicks in when I am moving! Don't know what this means? I can remember whenever I started or stopped SSRI's in the long distant past dizziness was always an issue with me. It just came and went though, not there permanently like it is now!

 

 

Flowers xxx