Flowers: tapering citalopram

[apace41]

Well, I have just stood with my eyes shut for at least 15 seconds and didn't feel unsteady at all. The unsteadiness only kicks in when I am moving! Don't know what this means? I can remember whenever I started or stopped SSRI's in the long distant past dizziness was always an issue with me. It just came and went though, not there permanently like it is now!

 

Aren't you going to ask how I KNEW that, Flowers?  LOL.  

 

I see that we are kindred spirits across the sea when it comes to the dizziness symptom.

 

You misstate when you use the word "permanently" in referring to it.  As you yourself just said, with your eyes closed you were not unsteady.  What this should tell you is a couple of things:

 

First, you are not dealing with a brain issue (lesion, bleed, etc.)

Second, your vestibular system is intact

Third, the problem you are encountering seems to be driven by the confluence of inputs that come into the body to allow you to "sense" that balance is functioning properly.  

 

In other words, the senses of sight, sound, feel and proprioception (ability to perceive yourself in space) are not functioning smoothly and in harmony.  Something in the way your brain is perceiving these inputs is creating a subjective sense of imbalance.  There is a lot of work that has been done at places like Mayo Clinic on something called "Chronic Subjective Dizziness."  You might find this interesting but it is NOT a disease you have but a syndrome that is the result of the medicine and withdrawal therefrom.

 

To deal with this the first thing you should do is try to stop believing there is something "really wrong with you" -- I know, much easier to say than do.  The second thing you should do is throw away your cane, walking assistance device or otherwise and do MORE walking rather than less.  Armed with the knowledge that this is not an intrinsic condition, my guess is that your dizziness will improve rapidly (if not abate completely).  The other thing you can do which can help you"retrain" the inputs is to engage in things that require these multiple inputs to work together.  Things that are suggested for this include tai chi, Wii machine and (what I do) juggling.

 

Most important of all of those is to try to stop viewing yourself as unwell.  You are temporarily impaired from the medication and withdrawal but you are not intrinsically unwell.  Start to reengage slowly (and trust me I know how hard it is when you feel crap) but if you do a few minutes more each day, I would be very surprised if you didn't see a significant improvement in relatively short order.

 

That, coupled with the small updose, will hopefully get you back to baseline so you can prepare for the next leg down.

 

Best,

 

Andy 

[Flowers]

Hi Andy

 

It is so nice to talk to someone who understands what this feels like!

 

I had this just the same when first in WD 2 years ago. I updosed and as I got more stable the dizziness abated, so I am counting on the same thing happening this time.

I just get a bit scared and panicky and think I will be like this forever. It will be interesting to look into the work at the Mayo Clinic.

 

I will take your advice and try a longer walk tomorrow without the walking stick. I think I would be useless at juggling but am full of admiration that you can do that.

Maybe have a look at Tai Chi. Each morning when I do my walk along the bay there is a Chinese man at the far end of the beach doing tai chi alone. He faces into the sun and it looks so peaceful. Maybe I will ask him if he needs some company or knows where there is a class.

 

I am settling down tonight on the sofa feeling much more positive about the outcome of all this and that is thanks to you.

 

Hope you have a lovely weekend.

 

Flowers xxx

[Frogie]

Hi Amy K,Lillylou,Martina,Frogie, Nick, DSThanks for caring about me and visiting me here. I really need you guys right now! Your advice is always welcome.Love and hugsFlowers xxx

You are welcome.

 

I really need your help too. We are all in this together!

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[Flowers]

Update!

 

Have taken the updose for the last 3 nights. I am not sure and don't want to tempt fate but think that the palpitations are a little better. I have been waking several times during the night with palps but last night managed to get a fairly good night.

I managed to do my walk the last 2 days without my stick. New symptom arrived - back pain that feels like muscles across my back in the kidney area are very tight. It subsides when I sit down. Main thing is I do not feel worse.

 

Will keep posting with updates as each day or so progresses. I am reminding myself I have to sit this out over 2 weeks at least to see how things pan out. My problem is as soon as I have a slight improvement I want to get back to normal and overdo it.

 

Will have to work on my patience!

[AmyK]

I hope it gets better now, Flowers!

I hold my thumbs.

Many hugs!

[Flowers]

Thanks Amy - is holding thumbs the same as we do in Britain - cross our fingers?

 

xxx

[AmyK]

Haha, yes it is. Sorry, I thought it could be translated.

[AmyK]

When we "cross our fingers" it means we lie.

 

You say something and you cross the fingers behind your back (for noone to see) to justifiy the lie.

 

[Flowers]

We do that as well when we tell a lie! lol! But we also cross our fingers for luck!

 

I like the holding thumbs though!

 

xxxx

[Martina23]

We also “hold the thumbs“ in Slovakia.

[Flowers]

I love it that you do it too Martina!

 

xxx

[apace41]

How is it going, Flowers?

Feeling any improvement after your little updose?

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Flowers]

How is it going, Flowers?

 

Feeling any improvement after your little updose?

 

Best,

 

Andy 

 

 

Hi Andy - thanks for checking on me.

 

I would love to say that I have noticed a great improvement but nothing dramatic is happening. I do feel a bit more drugged in the afternoons and evenings and that is good because I was feeling wired.

 

So still have current symptoms of nausea, diarrhea, waking at 630 with heart palps, muscle twitching in legs, unsteadiness when moving, depression and anxiety.

 

Things seem to ease off around 11pm at night when I am going to bed. I lay in bed reading and feel no nausea but hunger! Very weird.

 

 

Any thoughts? Should I be thinking about updosing a little more?

 

Hope you are doing OK.

 

Flowers xxx

[apace41]

Any thoughts? Should I be thinking about updosing a little more?

 

I edited your post to take your response outside the quote box (easier to follow -- plus it makes me feel cool because I can do that as a mod).  

 

My thought is that we take this a day at a time and not start looking at additional tinkering.  Let's see how you respond to this small updose.  Feeling a little more "drugged" could be the first step toward your CNS settling down and giving your the space you need.  I don't want to advise you to keep chasing improvement by increasing doses every week or so such that you wind up well above where you had reached.  Remember, reasonable minds could differ and many would have said that you should just hold as you would stabilize in any event.  

 

I'm hoping that a couple more days and you will see some real improvement.  How is the walking and the dizziness?

 

As far as I'm concerned, the past couple of days have not been ones to save in the "positive memory book."  I'm dealing with the increased dizziness as well, along with a decent sized dose of DP/DR.  If misery loves company you can rest assured that you are not alone at the present time! 

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Flowers]

Thanks Andy - don't know why that happened with my response! I like the fact that you could fix it for me!!

 

I am in your hands and am very conscious that it may take awhile for any improvement. At least things didn't get worse! I agree to dart about on doses is not a good idea until one has given an updose a fair chance.

 

The dizziness/unsteadiness continues but I am persevering with my daily walk. It's strange that each day one symptom will come to the fore as the worst and the next day another one! Yesterday it was depression, today it is nausea!

 

So sorry you are getting DP/DR together with the dizziness. Did something trigger this or is it just one of those WD mysteries? Hope it doesn't stick around long for you anyway.

 

Lets hope we both get a break soon.

 

 

Flowers xxx

[apace41]

The dizziness/unsteadiness continues but I am persevering with my daily walk. It's strange that each day one symptom will come to the fore as the worst and the next day another one! Yesterday it was depression, today it is nausea!

 

As I've said before, Flowers, you and I are kindred spirits from across the sea.  I have that in spades every day.  By way of example, last night I went to bed with terrible numbness in my right leg and foot.  Driving me crazy.  Slept ok and woke up and it was gone only to be replaced with the dizzy feeling.  It's as if the brain can only focus on one thing at a time that is in the fore and the other things are still around but recede to the background.

 

A positive way to look at it is that our brains/bodies heal in a cyclical manner, i.e., work is done on one part at a time and that is the part that is "in play" on any given day. Once the work is done on that part the "crew" working there rests while another work "crew" starts up on another part of the brain/body.  If you think of it that way perhaps you can feel like symptoms are a way of seeing that work is being done.

 

So sorry you are getting DP/DR together with the dizziness. Did something trigger this or is it just one of those WD mysteries? Hope it doesn't stick around long for you anyway.

 

Thanks, Flowers.  Like all things in this process I could point to 10 different "somethings" that might be the trigger but there is no way of knowing for sure.  It's probably all "just withdrawal" but who can really say?

 

Either way, thanks for the good wishes.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Flowers]

Andy - It is a pleasure to have you as a kindred spirit! I just wish it was under happier and healthier circumstances!

 

I like your theory re the daily changing symptoms - it will help to see this as healing going on - a positive rather than freaking out.

 

Hope tomorrow gets better for you.

 

Flowers xxx

[Athena]

Hi Flowers,

 

I understand you so much about the patience and wanting to do too much at the slight moment of improvement! It seems like we all would need zen monks patience. Full of wisdom we are becoming.

 

The healing is happening, and I also think that the alternating symptoms are a sign of that. I really hope for you a nice improvement soon. Hang in there Flowers.

 

Hugs

 

Athena xx

[Flowers]

Hi Flowers,

 

I understand you so much about the patience and wanting to do too much at the slight moment of improvement! It seems like we all would need zen monks patience. Full of wisdom we are becoming.

 

The healing is happening, and I also think that the alternating symptoms are a sign of that. I really hope for you a nice improvement soon. Hang in there Flowers.

 

Hugs

 

Athena xx

Thanks Athena! I am glad you are doing better.

 

Hugs to you too

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Today I woke up at 630 with heart palps. Couldn't go back to sleep. I have depression, nausea, shaking especially hands and unsteadiness. Can't eat anything as it goes straight through me. The depression is really bad. I can hardly hold a conversation with my husband.

 

I think I have been getting steadily worse since Dec 18. I feel like I am sliding down a big black hole and cannot go on like this.

 

I am trying not to sound dramatic but I need some help please.

[AmyK]

I am so sorry, Flowers! Is it worse after the updose?

[Flowers]

No Amy - I haven't noticed much difference since the updose. I have just been getting worse each day really since the wave.

[direstraits]

that sounds awful...wish I knew what would help but all I can do is hope and pray you get somerelief soon....so sorry.

 

lots of love and hugs,ds

[apace41]

I think I have been getting steadily worse since Dec 18. I feel like I am sliding down a big black hole and cannot go on like this.

 

Flowers,

 

I am so sorry you are struggling like you are.  I know the feeling and it is horrible.  

 

One of the hallmarks of W/D is that you feel like you are on a steady slide down when you look back from a low point.  The reality is usually not nearly that linear.  In other words, between Dec. 18 and now there were most likely some ups and downs along the way.  The fact is that you feel much lower now than you did on the 18th of December which is not a pleasant thing.  You are in a big wave with, I suspect, mini-windows and waves within the bigger wave.  It seems hard to view them as "windows" when overall you feel worse than you did at the outset, but they are the "steps foward" between the "steps back".  When we describe healing from withdrawal we always say "two steps forward, one step back".  Unfortunately, at times it can be "one step forward, two steps back" for a period of time.  This is when, as hard as it may be, you need to dig deep, practice acceptance and mindfulness, keep stress low and wait for healing to reflect itself (it is happening but you are not seeing the positive changes in your body/mind yet).

 

Flowers, I am saying this from a position of empathy -- not just sympathy.  From the time I returned from my trip to FL in December/early January, I too have felt like I have been sliding and am worse than I was on January 2 when I got home.  When I look into it there were some better days, i.e., it hasn't been all downhill, but the overall trend feels down.  I am hunkering down, battening the hatches, (insert favorite cliche) and expecting things to turn around soon.

 

Hang in there and don't panic into an extreme updose.  Give it a little more time and, hopefully, things will settle down.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Junglechicken]

Flowers,

 

LOTS of virtual hugs......

 

Andy has been living all this WD crap longer than I have, so is able to give a long-term view of recovery very well.

 

Thinking of you,

 

JC xxx

[Martina23]

Andy, thank you for your explanation. I also needed to hear.

[joy2730]

So sorry you feel so bad both physically and with mood.  All I can add is that I think jumping around in dose only makes things worse, and means you loose your goal.

 

It is hard to make good decisions when you feel so poorly.  When I withdrew from diazepam I decided in the end I had to see what life was like without it - in the end I was just taking a 'slither' of a 2mg tablet every other day and then decided to stop altogether and a week later felt much better and never looked back.  But I, as you know, find withdrawing from citalopram very hard.

 

I got the palpitations every time I dropped in dose with diazepam but they usually settled after about a week.  I discovered a pattern to the withdrawal, but I spent many years trying to get off it.  At the time I only had a part time job which was undemanding and it meant I went home at lunch time to go to bed for the afternoon.   

 

My heart goes out to you, keep us posted in this difficult time.  Difficult times do provide opportunity for progress though.

 

Joy

[AmyK]

I agreee with Andy, Flowers. Just sit still and dont panic. It WiLL get better.

 

I am holding your hand.

[Flowers]

that sounds awful...wish I knew what would help but all I can do is hope and pray you get somerelief soon....so sorry.

 

lots of love and hugs,ds

Thanks DS. It helps so much to know you care.

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

Flowers,

 

LOTS of virtual hugs......

 

Andy has been living all this WD crap longer than I have, so is able to give a long-term view of recovery very well.

 

Thinking of you,

 

JC xxx

Thanks JC for the virtual hugs and kind words.

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

So sorry you feel so bad both physically and with mood.  All I can add is that I think jumping around in dose only makes things worse, and means you loose your goal.

 

It is hard to make good decisions when you feel so poorly.  When I withdrew from diazepam I decided in the end I had to see what life was like without it - in the end I was just taking a 'slither' of a 2mg tablet every other day and then decided to stop altogether and a week later felt much better and never looked back.  But I, as you know, find withdrawing from citalopram very hard.

 

I got the palpitations every time I dropped in dose with diazepam but they usually settled after about a week.  I discovered a pattern to the withdrawal, but I spent many years trying to get off it.  At the time I only had a part time job which was undemanding and it meant I went home at lunch time to go to bed for the afternoon.   

 

My heart goes out to you, keep us posted in this difficult time.  Difficult times do provide opportunity for progress though.

 

Joy

 

Thanks Joy. I can manage most of the physical symptoms but when I get the depression I just want to give up.

 

I will see what the next few days bring.

 

Love from Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

 

I think I have been getting steadily worse since Dec 18. I feel like I am sliding down a big black hole and cannot go on like this.

 

Flowers,

 

I am so sorry you are struggling like you are.  I know the feeling and it is horrible.  

 

One of the hallmarks of W/D is that you feel like you are on a steady slide down when you look back from a low point.  The reality is usually not nearly that linear.  In other words, between Dec. 18 and now there were most likely some ups and downs along the way.  The fact is that you feel much lower now than you did on the 18th of December which is not a pleasant thing.  You are in a big wave with, I suspect, mini-windows and waves within the bigger wave.  It seems hard to view them as "windows" when overall you feel worse than you did at the outset, but they are the "steps foward" between the "steps back".  When we describe healing from withdrawal we always say "two steps forward, one step back".  Unfortunately, at times it can be "one step forward, two steps back" for a period of time.  This is when, as hard as it may be, you need to dig deep, practice acceptance and mindfulness, keep stress low and wait for healing to reflect itself (it is happening but you are not seeing the positive changes in your body/mind yet).

 

Flowers, I am saying this from a position of empathy -- not just sympathy.  From the time I returned from my trip to FL in December/early January, I too have felt like I have been sliding and am worse than I was on January 2 when I got home.  When I look into it there were some better days, i.e., it hasn't been all downhill, but the overall trend feels down.  I am hunkering down, battening the hatches, (insert favorite cliche) and expecting things to turn around soon.

 

Hang in there and don't panic into an extreme updose.  Give it a little more time and, hopefully, things will settle down.

 

Best,

 

Andy

 

Andy - I thank you for your encouragement and straight talking as always.

 

I am baffled by the intensity of this wave. I can cope the best I can with physical withdrawal symptoms but when I get depression (which is very rare and never before WD) that is another matter and I just want someone to do something now to make me feel better. It fills me with fear!

 

I know this is irrational. I get very frustrated that I have to work even harder on my coping skills which focuses my mind even more on the fact that I am in WD and not able to live my life as I want to. Anxiety shoots up then! I expect everyone feels like this in WD.

 

I am so sorry you are going through much of the same and I admire you that you have the strength to feel optimistic and hopeful of the outcome.

 

I will do my best to follow your lead.

 

I will try not to panic and do an extreme updose - after taking 2 years to get where I am I don't want to mess up.

 

Thank you for being there - you have no idea how much you and everyone here is helping me.

 

Flowers xxx

[Flowers]

I agreee with Andy, Flowers. Just sit still and dont panic. It WiLL get better.

 

I am holding your hand.

Amy - thanks for holding my hand - you have no idea how much that helps.

 

I am trying to find the strength to stay where I am and knowing you have been through similar and have done so well gives me great encouragement.

 

How do you cope with the extreme times in WD?

 

Flowers xxx

[AmyK]

I cry, cry and try to distract myself. If I can I watch movies and just let myself lay on the couch and let the time pass. I go for small walks just to get some air and I write (cry out) in my diary.

I always doubt that I will come out of the wave (and that thought gives me great despair) - but I always come out if it. And it always surprises me and gives me a intense feeling of gratefulness. Life is bigger than withdrawal!

Lots of love

[Flowers]

I cry, cry and try to distract myself. If I can I watch movies and just let myself lay on the couch and let the time pass. I go for small walks just to get some air and I write (cry out) in my diary.

I always doubt that I will come out of the wave (and that thought gives me great despair) - but I always come out if it. And it always surprises me and gives me a intense feeling of gratefulness. Life is bigger than withdrawal!

Lots of love

Thanks Amy for the tips. Maybe I should cry too - some say it is an outlet and they feel better afterwards. I have been lucky - this is my first big wave since stabilising and starting my taper over a year ago. I think that is why I am scared and the fact that it has gone on for so long. As I haven't had a major wave I have not been able to establish a pattern so I would know what to expect.

 

I am like you thinking that I will be like this forever! I am glad that you and others know that is not the case from your experience.

 

Much love and thank you again.

 

Flowers xxx

[Martina23]

Flowers, I am at my mothers house for Saturday and Sunday so I can not write that much but I wanted to thank you for writing me. Especially when I see you have problems yourself. Flowers, are you feeling already better? Or are you feeling now worse compared to the state before updose. The people in withdrawal are very sensitive on any chemical substances and alcohol, and any additional amount of antidepressant can make a paradoxical reaction that is like if you put fire into petrol. I dont know, you should really look if the updose helped you or made the things only worse. If it helped you, then stay so a few weeks (please dont updose further - and if it makes things worse than you can always come back to the dose which  you were before.

 

For the depression you have to be a lot on fresh air. And try to exercise a bit - if you can - or go swimming or to the nature. And try to be a lot with the people to distract. I hope you will start feeling better soon.