success Hibari: tapering Remeron and want to start tapering Lamictal

[SkyBlue]

20 minutes ago, Hibari said:

 

Hanging out in withdrawal stable is physically tiring, cognitively challenging and I don't like it, but I have to accept it. 

 

I guess I would honestly say, I am in the process of accepting that I have to accept this process it in order to heal.

 

HIbari, that sounds like a really good attitude and one that will serve you well in healing. ❤️

[Santino]

Hibari...

But do not forget.... even a small step, no matter how small, is a step forward... That is the best thing for the process.

Just keep it a one way process... big steps small steps does not matter much.

All the best 
Santino

[Hibari]

Thank you Santino.    Yes, that's the way it has to be.

 

So today, I have come down with a cold/cough and need to keep reminding myself that I will get through this period of being sick.  I don't know about you but my capacity to handle illness has been greatly reduced during withdrawal.   Though I have to work some hours today and tomorrow, I need to keep things very simple.

 

Thanks for your encouragement.

 

H
 

[Hibari]

Heads Up: have a cold and am complaining. 

 

In the middle of a bad cough/cold and have been in bed most of the day.  In reality, I'm ok but it just sucks to be sick right now. 

 

I feel the physical and mental illness and can't wait to feel better.  

[Carmie]

42 minutes ago, Hibari said:

Heads Up: have a cold and am complaining. 

 

In the middle of a bad cough/cold and have been in bed most of the day.  In reality, I'm ok but it just sucks to be sick right now. 

 

I feel the physical and mental illness and can't wait to feel better.  

 

Hi Hibari, 

 

I hope you get over your cold soon. No fun being sick, I’ve had a chronic illness for over twenty years and it certainly is no fun, but I try and look at the positives throughout the day. If you’re stuck in bed maybe listen to some music, or if you have a tv in the bedroom watch some DVDs or Netflix. Do some reading if you enjoy it, I love getting into a good novel. Play some card games, a friend showed me a new card game last week.

 

How is your acupuncture and reflexology going? I saw that in your signature. Is it helping with your withdrawals?

 

Stay warm and get better soon.

 

Sending hugs🤗

[Hibari]

2 hours ago, Carmie said:

 

Hi Hibari, 

 

I hope you get over your cold soon. No fun being sick, I’ve had a chronic illness for over twenty years and it certainly is no fun, but I try and look at the positives throughout the day. If you’re stuck in bed maybe listen to some music, or if you have a tv in the bedroom watch some DVDs or Netflix. Do some reading if you enjoy it, I love getting into a good novel. Play some card games, a friend showed me a new card game last week.

 

How is your acupuncture and reflexology going? I saw that in your signature. Is it helping with your withdrawals?

 

Stay warm and get better soon.

 

Sending hugs🤗

Thank you so much for your post on my thread Carmie.  Its was like a little chicken soup for the soup.  I ended up dozing off and on, watched a movie and will try to sleep, which I'm having some difficulty with right now.  

 

I still am receiving acupuncture and reflexology-not every week though.  My nervous system is super sensitive so I'm doing it every other week.  I love it and it has helped tremendously during wd.  My practitioner has been open to learning about wd and has made the treatments very gently.  

 

I hope you are all right too.  

 

H

[Carmie]

On 6/17/2018 at 11:05 AM, Hibari said:

Thank you so much for your post on my thread Carmie.  Its was like a little chicken soup for the soup.  I ended up dozing off and on, watched a movie and will try to sleep, which I'm having some difficulty with right now.  

 

I still am receiving acupuncture and reflexology-not every week though.  My nervous system is super sensitive so I'm doing it every other week.  I love it and it has helped tremendously during wd.  My practitioner has been open to learning about wd and has made the treatments very gently.  

 

I hope you are all right too.  

 

H

 

Hi Hibari, 

 

I’m so glad to hear that acupuncture and reflexology are helping with your withdrawals. I’m going to go back to a acupuncture before I taper next. 

 

Hope you’re keeping warm and resting so you can get over that cold of yours. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

[Hibari]

Update:

 

I'm now on 8.8 mgs of Lamictal.   I'm okay, though I still feel every cut pretty acutely.   I'm doing my version of the BrassMonkey slide, sometimes holding longer, sometimes doing a slightly larger cut .50 if I can.   I have to schedule my cuts around my work schedule, which is probably helping not push any harder  

 

Physical Symptoms right now are:  Exhaustion, fuzzy eyes, fuzzy brain, sweating, some swaying when I stand and for the past 4 weeks, rebound insomnia.  

Mental Symptoms: Low grade anxiety, low grade despair about a week after my cuts, once I stabilize, an optimism about life returns.  

 

I had a passive aggressive conversation with my psychiatrist, which I have to confess was instigated by me.   We were doing our 3 month check in and even though up to this point I have been very clear on my pace and that I only need him to prescribe, something got into me.  He generally is a nice guy but I hear the doubt in his voice when he asks general questions about the pace I am tapering Lamictal.

 

Anyway, I asked him if he read the NY Times article on antidepressants withdrawal and he had.  I asked what he thought and he said he thought that some of research was distorted.  I said I felt validated.

He then said that having treated 10,000 patients he had not had anyone of them share that difficulty.  I paused and said something like, "That they told you about".   (I know, I know, why am stirring up trouble when I still need my meds).  

 

He paused.  Then he then said "I have had anxious people share somatic reactions that have nothing to do with the medications.  It's all about their anxiety".  ( I felt this was directed at me because I went to him for anxiety and depression).   I paused and thought "Hibari, don't go further with this".  So I said something like, "I understand that can happen".   Then I backed away.

 

I won't do it again because he has not pushed me to go faster and has not threatened to stop prescribing.   I can't expect someone who earns a living prescribing meds to change their belief system nor is it my job at this point to get him to see the light. 

 

So I'm now back to taking care of my journey and not rocking the boat till I am off.  

 

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
 

 

 

 

[direstraits]

13 minutes ago, Hibari said:

fuzzy eyes

can you describe this more,I think I have something like this....thanks.

[leahy]

I am so proud of you, Hibari. I have had the same discussions with my pdoc, the same sentiments, gotten the SAME frustrating answers from him and I also have backed off in the end because I know I still need his prescription. Can't be shooting myself in the foot quite yet. Yup. I am the ONLY PATIENT HE HAS EVER HAD WITH A PROBLEM TAPERING. MUST BE PYSCHOSOMATIC he had the nerve to say.  I think they are stupid. Quite frankly. And closed minded.

 

[Martina23]

These doctors make me angry when I read it. I have the same experience with one stupid doctor.

[Hibari]

20 minutes ago, direstraits said:

can you describe this more,I think I have something like this....thanks.

It's this blurry vision thing that I have most of the time. 

I noticed it most when I was on Remeron/Mirtazapine.  Just this sense that my eye sight is not sharp or clear.  I'm older now so it could be aging but I feel it's brain-eye connected.   I know that brain function affects eye sight so that's why I mainly believe it's meds.   Once I'm off, I will be able to make an assessment. 

[Hibari]

20 minutes ago, leahy said:

I am so proud of you, Hibari. I have had the same discussions with my pdoc, the same sentiments, gotten the SAME frustrating answers from him and I also have backed off in the end because I know I still need his prescription. Can't be shooting myself in the foot quite yet. Yup. I am the ONLY PATIENT HE HAS EVER HAD WITH A PROBLEM TAPERING. MUST BE PYSCHOSOMATIC he had the nerve to say.  I think they are stupid. Quite frankly. And closed minded.

 

Thank you Leahy.  Yeah, they can't possibly believe that their patients are scared, or intimidated about sharing their true symptoms.  I know and have experienced subtle shaming by doctors when I share my struggle.  They don't get the power imbalance that goes on between doctor and patient.  So frustrating but I know what I need to do now and will keep my eye on prize. 

[Hibari]

21 minutes ago, Martina23 said:

These doctors make me angry when I read it. I have the same experience with one stupid doctor.

Yup, their heads are in the sand. 

[Ox123]

On 5/9/2015 at 5:11 AM, Hibari said:

My withdrawal has followed a specific pattern.  I make the cut, feel some nausea but okay, then after about 2-3 weeks have a crash, depression, crying, and anxiety.

Then I pop through and move into a more stable period.  I think I let myself stabilize for about 10 days and then make another drop. 

Just jumping in on this thread,  pardon me for digging up your first post.  What you described there is EXACTLY what I am experiencing. I was on Mirtazapine for 6 months, had exactly the same withdrawal symptoms when I tapered, and 2-3 weeks after each cut I would crash. I've now been off Mirtazapine 90 days and seem to be stuck in these 2-3 week windows/waves!

Are you still experiencing the same as above? 

[Hibari]

22 minutes ago, Ox123 said:

Just jumping in on this thread,  pardon me for digging up your first post.  What you described there is EXACTLY what I am experiencing. I was on Mirtazapine for 6 months, had exactly the same withdrawal symptoms when I tapered, and 2-3 weeks after each cut I would crash. I've now been off Mirtazapine 90 days and seem to be stuck in these 2-3 week windows/waves!

Are you still experiencing the same as above? 

I'm not experiencing those symptoms in regard to Mirtazapine.   But I will say that my continued Lamictal withdrawal may have over shadowed any remaining Mirtazapine wd symptoms once I jumped  off. 

 

I think you are still early in the process of post wd symptoms, meaning what is happening may continue for a bit but does not mean that something is wrong.   After stopping there is still medication in your system (don't know how long it stays) but your brain is also still healing and remodeling. 

 

Congratulations for getting off of Mirtazapine-it's a very potent medication. 

[Survivor1]

Hi Hibari, sorry about your insomnia.  How are you coping with it, and are you tapering despite it?  Take care.

[Hibari]

Hi Survivor

 

The insomnia has been a real struggle.  I have always slept very well even before being sedated by Mirtazapine. 

 

Now lots of sleep  struggle despite being very tired of at night. I am considering slowly shifting my Lamictal dose to earlier in the evening.  

 

On top of the insomnia  I have been in a very bad wave for the past 3 days.  Feeling discouraged about the process and regretting all the choices I made around meds. I also feel I am doing something wrong because I am experiencing wd symptoms when my cuts are small.  I know my brain isn't rational right now but I feel pretty overwhelmed knowing I have more of this journey in front of me.  

 

 

[Hibari]

Forgot to say that yes, despite the insomnia, I plan to still taper.  

 

I've tried magnesium for sleep-not a huge difference. L-Theanine.has kind of lost its effectiveness in relaxing me.  I am going to look at the sleep threads on the site.  

[Hibari]

Okay, what's the difference between gong too fast and plain old withdrawal?

 

I made what I felt was a small cut, .25 of my medication and am now in a very bad wave.   Because my mind is not well, I feel I am doing something wrong.   I am trying the BrassMonkey slide method but I can't get past the first cut. 

 

I remember reading something  that Alto said here on the site that there is no getting around wd.  I took that to mean that no one breezes through easily and there are always physical and mental symptoms. 

 

I have shared here before that I have felt all my cuts and my system is very sensitive.  Even during wd normal I am acutely aware of the medication in my system. 

 

So am I simply experiencing what is normal in terms of withdrawal or is this a sign of going too fast?

 

And, please know that I am extremely vulnerable right now.   If you feel I am going too fast, I ask that you be gentle in telling me.  I don't want to assume that you won't but I can't just hear "you're going too fast" without some guidance or even support as well.  I appreciate the understanding about this. 

 

 

[Survivor1]

Hi Hibari,

 

Sorry to hear you are struggling.  My two cents is (and I mean this in the gentlest way possible😉) you should hold for while.  You have actually tapered two head duty drugs, where many take the same time to taper just one, so I feel that your CNS is really looking for some stability.

 

I know you desperately want to get off, but need to be gentle with yourself.  Look at the broad picture - you are down to 8.8 mgs!  

 

I hope you start to feel better soon.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Hibari--  You're going too fast.

 

There is always going to be a a spike in symptoms every time a person does a reduction.  But that spike should fade over the following several days and weeks, and return you to a baseline referred to as WDnormal.  It sounds like your symptoms are piling up on you drop after drop and not fully resolving themselves before the next drop is taken.  The type of symptoms you describe above indicate that this is the case.  Looking at your signature also confirms that things are too fast.  

 

Last year, when you stopped the Remeron there should have been a six month hold before you continued to taper the  Lamictol.  This would have allowed your body to adjust to not having the Remeron any more.  Since then you have been tapering the Lamictol at the fastest rate that we suggest, actually even faster on some months.  This is all catching up with you and will continue to build until you have a crash, unless you slow down and let things settle out.

 

For now I would suggest sticking where you are and not make any changes for several months. possibly even six or more.  Once your body has restabilized, then you can start to think about beginning to taper again.

 

Brass

[Hibari]

3 hours ago, Survivor1 said:

Hi Hibari,

 

Sorry to hear you are struggling.  My two cents is (and I mean this in the gentlest way possible😉) you should hold for while.  You have actually tapered two head duty drugs, where many take the same time to taper just one, so I feel that your CNS is really looking for some stability.

 

I know you desperately want to get off, but need to be gentle with yourself.  Look at the broad picture - you are down to 8.8 mgs!  

 

I hope you start to feel better soon.

Thank you Survivor and you are gentle.  I do have to look at the broad picture and because I am so crazy right now, I lose sight of that.

[Hibari]

2 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi Hibari--  You're going too fast.

 

There is always going to be a a spike in symptoms every time a person does a reduction.  But that spike should fade over the following several days and weeks, and return you to a baseline referred to as WDnormal.  It sounds like your symptoms are piling up on you drop after drop and not fully resolving themselves before the next drop is taken.  The type of symptoms you describe above indicate that this is the case.  Looking at your signature also confirms that things are too fast.  

That is a clear explanation for me of what should happen during withdrawal.   I thought I was in WD normal but I see now it was (as I saw written here once) fragile stability.   I have always been super sensitive and thought that it was just me feeling the med in my system but maybe it was the ongoing battle in my body of  trying to stabilize with the med in my system.

2 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

 

Last year, when you stopped the Remeron there should have been a six month hold before you continued to taper the  Lamictol.  This would have allowed your body to adjust to not having the Remeron any more.  Since then you have been tapering the Lamictol at the fastest rate that we suggest, actually even faster on some months.  This is all catching up with you and will continue to build until you have a crash, unless you slow down and let things settle out.

 

For now I would suggest sticking where you are and not make any changes for several months. possibly even six or more.  Once your body has restabilized, then you can start to think about beginning to taper again.

 

Brass

Several months has always meant 2-4 months for me but I see now that it is even longer.   I never have held longer than 2 months.

I also fear my psychiatrist puling the medication rug out from underneath me because he is surprised by my sensitivity.  He hasn't so far but I think all I can do is reach out to him and share that I need to hold for awhile. I can only find out by asking. 

 

My final question Brass is: After the long hold do people experience the ability to resume a more normal taper?   That the medication hasn't become more entrenched in the brain and it will be harder?  

Thank you for your response. 

[brassmonkey]

I'm glad I was able to clear the fog a bit on how WD progresses.

 

The drug doesn't become more entrenched by taking a longer hold, but rather the body becomes more habituated to that amount and more able to work with it instead of fighting against it for control.  Tapering from a point of stability is the best place to start, so yes once you're stable after a long hold starting a new taper should be easier than continuing one that is unstable.  I have seen it numerous times that a person would be struggling, do a long hold to stabilize and then have a relatively trouble free taper afterwards.

 

If you're going to be dry cutting your tablets, then you should be picking up your full prescription every time it runs out on paper, not when you start to run low on tablets.  That way you can build a backlog of tablets and have to rely less and less on the whims of your doctor.  It's a method of taking control of the situation.

[Hibari]

Very helpful response for me Brass. 

You have have helped me dismantle some distorted beliefs I have had about medication in the brain and wd.

 

Yes, I am back to dry cutting and refill when the prescription is due to be refilled.  I also have some higher dose pills in stock and now that I know how to use a scale and calculate dosages, I have those as well. I'm going to pick up some gel caps and make things even easier.  

 

Very grateful for your clear, calm guidance.  

[Hibari]

The past 24 hours have been hard for me.  We unexpectedly had to say good bye to our 12 1/2 year old dog, named Jordy, who was the center of our lives.  

He came into our lives in 2006 and was by my side when I plunged into a major depression after my mother died.   During that time he would lie in the bedroom with me while I was incapacitated with despair.   I couldn't even walk him for a period of time I was so anxious and going through what I now know is benzo wd.

 

Then as I tapered from Remeron and now Lamictal, he was one of the reasons I had to get out of the house in the morning, which would help clear my head.

 

From the grief and shock of his death, I have been kicked into a wave due to my very sensitive nervous system.  I just am planing some good self-care and limited work while I mourn his passing. 

 

There is nothing like the the love of a pet but the loss is incredible. 

 

 

 

 

[FarmGirlWorks]

@Hibari: I am so so sorry to hear about Jordy. A pet is so much more than we imagine. A true friend, a loyal companion, a reason to get out of the house even when you feel you can’t. Take care😢

[leahy]

Dear Hibari,

 

I am so sorry for your loss.

 

Leahy

[Hibari]

5 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

@Hibari: I am so so sorry to hear about Jordy. A pet is so much more than we imagine. A true friend, a loyal companion, a reason to get out of the house even when you feel you can’t. Take care😢

Thank you FarmGirl.  Your words capture what I feel too.  

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, leahy said:

Dear Hibari,

 

I am so sorry for your loss.

 

Leahy

Thank you Leahy.  It's funny, I don't feel like a victim but the last 5 years of my life have been emotionally stressed, deep and life changing.  

[freespirit]

23 hours ago, Hibari said:

There is nothing like the the love of a pet but the loss is incredible.

 

I'm very sorry about Jordy. And what you've written above says everything. In my experience too, love shared with a pet is an exceptional experience. Losing that is so difficult. There's no shortcut to the grief, at least none that I've found.

 

"Love is a force, an energy, an eternal reality. Love transcends death and lives within your heart, always. Although physical form is impermanent, true love is not."

~Ashley Davis Bush

[Carmie]

Hi Hibari, 

 

Im so very sorry for your loss. Animals are so precious to us. Just wanted to send you big, big hugs🤗🤗

[Hibari]

13 hours ago, Carmie said:

Hi Hibari, 

 

Im so very sorry for your loss. Animals are so precious to us. Just wanted to send you big, big hugs🤗🤗

Hi Carmie,  Thank you so much.  Yes, animals are very precious and I'm so glad I experienced my dog Jordy's love. 

 

Congratulations on getting so low on your Seroquel.  It takes a lot of courage and will to get there.  

[Hibari]

I am reaching out for support at this time of loss in my life.  As I shared above, the loss of my beloved dog has really affected my nervous system.  

We have just returned to our house after two weeks away, the place where his passing occurred.  

 

My nervous system feels shot.  I am sad, panicky, and filled with an overwhelming fear that I have had a set back. The usual physical symptoms are more intense but those I can handle.   On some level I think I have.  I know the only thing is time and rest but between the grief and the shock to my system, its taxing.

 

I'm not giving up nor am I making any changes to my meds. I'm continuing my commitment to holding at this dosage.  

 

My faith has been tested because of this experience and I keep thinking that  if I was stronger, I would have more faith that all will be well.  

 

Any words of support and encouragement would be appreciated.  

 

Hibari 

 

 

[Martina23]

Hibari  and if you buy a new dog? Such a little puppy. Wouldnt it help?