success Hibari: tapering Remeron and want to start tapering Lamictal

[manymoretodays]

Hi Hibari,

Yah......I think that's generally the case with liquid absorption.  It comes on quicker. 

So your compound(new, as of this week) is liquid?  Are the 2 mg tablets new as well?

 

Go ahead and tease out your drug and symptom journal/log a bit more......I mean add the symptoms over on the right hand side as well.

No reason to stop with how you did it last Wednesday........the journal/log posting.

When does the hyper hit and then let up?  When does the nauseau, headache, and dizziness hit?  Put it all into that format again.

 

And yah......I am glad I am off the Lamictal now too.  For me it was really high doses that gave me the worst symptoms.......I mean we are talking in the 100's of mg. 

I think that there is really some good hope for you now.......and your situation, with the Lamictal......and the GABA GABA hey response, and calming and all.  Utmost patience required right now as finding the sweet spot dose continues.......and getting through the symptoms, of some of the changes.

 

You're doing great ((((Hibari))))).  Again, just a bit more with reporting on the drug and symptom journal/log will be of utmost help to us.

L, P, H, and growth,

mmt

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by manymoretodays
clarity

[manymoretodays]

On 10/18/2018 at 11:28 AM, Altostrata said:

I see the last time you increased your daily dosage was 9/4, to 10mg. Was that from 8.8mg?

 

You are taking 9mg now, which is a decrease from 9.4mg on 10/15.

 

Suggest reduction to 8mg:

 

8:30 a.m. 1mg

12:30 p.m. 2mg

4:30 p.m. 2mg

8:30 p.m. 2mg

3 a.m. 1mg

 

......and hey Hibari,  quote of Altostrata's suggest.

At least on my desktop I see we are onto a new page.  And it's a bit different from the schedule you posted.  Post the logs.  That will show what you have presently been doing schedule wise.  That'll be great.

Thanks.

[Hibari]

2 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

Hi Hibari,

Yah......I think that's generally the case with liquid absorption.  It comes on quicker. 

So your compound(new, as of this week) is liquid?  Are the 2 mg tablets new as well?

 

Go ahead and tease out your drug and symptom journal/log a bit more......I mean add the symptoms over on the right hand side as well.

No reason to stop with how you did it last Wednesday........the journal/log posting.

When does the hyper hit and then let up?  When does the nauseau, headache, and dizziness hit?  Put it all into that format again.

 

And yah......I am glad I am off the Lamictal now too.  For me it was really high doses that gave me the worst symptoms.......I mean we are talking in the 100's of mg. 

I think that there is really some good hope for you now.......and your situation, with the Lamictal......and the GABA GABA hey response, and calming and all.  Utmost patience required right now as finding the sweet spot dose continues.......and getting through the symptoms, of some of the changes.

 

You're doing great ((((Hibari))))).  Again, just a bit more with reporting on the drug and symptom journal/log will be of utmost help to us.

L, P, H, and growth,

mmt

 

 

 

 

Hi MMT,

 

As always thank you for your response.

 

I've been on the liquid since Tuesday.    No, I don't have any 2 mgs tablets, I had cut up one of my 5mg tablets and weighed till I got 2mgs.   I wanted to try it as an experiential to see if I could and would absorb it better.     It is slightly better.

 

Logs,  It will look different than what Alto suggested only because I tried to space the medication out a bit so I could fit it all in and not get hit so hard.

 

Speak with my psychatrist about spreading out the doses by having little doses in between to help with hyper feeling.  She says okay. 

10/18

8:30-9AM 1mgs speedy feeling, nasuea

11AM  .20mg  get a headache and cry

1PM 2mg  have acupuncture, cry afterwards and feel depressed

3PM  .40 mgs

4:30PM 2 mgs, small headache, start to feel emotionally easier 

7PM  .20mgs

8:30  2 mgs,  1/2 hour later speedy, mood okay

3AM .80 mg for cortisol spike, no relief

 

10/19

8:30 1mg with a banana, about 20 mins-1/2 later. Sweating, nausea, speedy

11AM   .20mgs Liquid Lamictal

Eggs and potatoes

12:30PM  2mgs liquid Lamictal  20 mins-1/2 later low grade nausea, speedy feeling 

3PM  .20mgs Lamictal with almond butter

4:30  2.20mgs liquid lamictal   , steak and spaghetti squash down and weepy,

7PM .10 mgs liquid lamictal 

8:30PM 2mgs liquid lamictal    eat leftover dinner, Speedy feeling, mood okay, can't relax to sleep

2AM  .70 mg  to help with cortisol spike, does not help, makes me speedy.

8.40mgs

No sleep

 

I'm being very honest with these logs and also trying to listen to my body.

 

10/20  Try to move to a more even dosing of medication at 8.40 mgs  

This log will look crazy but I felt crazy. I am trying to keep a certain amount of the med in my system without being overloaded and to get my full dose in.

8:30 2mgs  eggs and potatoes Horrible hyper feeling, crying

12:30 1.50mgs  tearful, speedy

3PM .50mgs

4:40PM 2 mgs speedy,

7PM .20mgs

8:30PM 1.80 mgs brought it down so I could maybe sleep, hot flash, anxiety sad, by the time I go to bed my mood is okay but I am speedy

3:00AM .40 to help with cortisol, does not help, dizzy, speedy, nausea. 

No Sleep

 

10/21 so far

8:30 1 mg Lamictal  no appetite, speed, nausea, panic, anxiety, blurry head

12:00PM 2 mg Lamictal tablet, some speediness, very down about this process. 

 

I don't feel I'm doing great.  Im pretty much homebound except for getting out every once and awhile.   Even thought I am down from 200mgs of Lamictal from 3 years and 2 months ago, this last stretch is testing me.  I feel sick on the medication, it's providing no relief when I take it and so I feel very stuck. 

 

My husband and I discussed that if he didn't have a very important consulting gig that is keeping us financially afloat, I would stop all together.  I feel I am experiencing what people experience cold turkey and if that is the case, why wait?  I am not doing anything rash at this point but when medication no longer works, what other choice do you have?

 

H

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

 

......and hey Hibari,  quote of Altostrata's suggest.

At least on my desktop I see we are onto a new page.  And it's a bit different from the schedule you posted.  Post the logs.  That will show what you have presently been doing schedule wise.  That'll be great.

Thanks.

 

8:30 a.m. 1mg

12:30 p.m. 2mg

4:30 p.m. 2mg

8:30 p.m. 2mg

3 a.m. 1mg

 

Yes, I wanted to follow Alto's suggestion above but my body could not handle the 3AM 1mg suggestion and I also am not sleeping when I take 2mgs at 8:30PM. 

 

I am trying to get back to it with some modification, fitting the 1 mg 3AM dosage into the day somewhere.  

[Altostrata]

4 hours ago, Hibari said:

I am considering going back to  

tablets for the higher doses.  I thinking they take longer to absorb.  

 

Yes, this is true.

 

Hyper or speedy means too much lamotrigine. It's a paradoxical reaction.

 

If you can get 2mg tablets, that might help.

 

How about reducing the 3 a.m. dose to 0.5mg? And reduce the others to:

 

8:30 a.m. 1.5mg

12:30 p.m. 1.5mg

4:30 p.m. 1.5mg

8:30 p.m. 1.5mg

3 a.m. 0.5mg

 

That would take you down to 6.5mg, but your body is definitely saying it wants less lamotrigine. Hang in there through the black holes, it will take your system several days to level out on the new dosing schedule.

 

On the plus side, when your body says "too much lamotrigine," that means the lamotrigine has done its job turning down reactivity, now your body wants to take over.

[Hibari]

28 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Yes, this is true.

 

Hyper or speedy means too much lamotrigine. It's a paradoxical reaction.

 

If you can get 2mg tablets, that might help.

 

How about reducing the 3 a.m. dose to 0.5mg? And reduce the others to:

 

8:30 a.m. 1.5mg

12:30 p.m. 1.5mg

4:30 p.m. 1.5mg

8:30 p.m. 1.5mg

3 a.m. 0.5mg

 

That would take you down to 6.5mg, but your body is definitely saying it wants less lamotrigine. Hang in there through the black holes, it will take your system several days to level out on the new dosing schedule.

 

On the plus side, when your body says "too much lamotrigine," that means the lamotrigine has done its job turning down reactivity, now your body wants to take over.

Reading your response makes me want to cry Alto.  I have tried to be mindful when I have been tapering.   I have questioned myself  over and over again about whether my symptoms are wd and I should be patient or whether its true that my body no longer needs this much Lamictal. 

 

To read your perspective that when the body says no more Lamictal, it means that the body is ready to take over is so significant to me right now.  .I feel validated by what you have written.  

 

 Is that what you have experienced or seen with others who have tapered Lamictal?  

 

I will work with the liquid amount and see if I can get the tablets from my new doctor.  

 

Even though I feel scared about the black hole days, I am hoping anything is better than this hyper feeling, nausea and headache all the time.  

 

Thank you so much.  

[Altostrata]

From what I understand from a lamotrigine expert, your symptoms mean your body is saying, "Thank you, lamotrigine, I don't need so much of you now."

 

Hang in there, and let us know how you're doing.

[Hibari]

34 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

From what I understand from a lamotrigine expert, your symptoms mean your body is saying, "Thank you, lamotrigine, I don't need so much of you now."

 

Hang in there, and let us know how you're doing.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to let me know that.

 

I will hang in there with tears, some fears and hope. 

[wantrelief]

Hey Hibari - Just wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you and rooting for you.  You are doing so well hanging in there during this really rough time.  Lots of hugs - WR.

[Hibari]

Thank you WR.  It's very tough but I really want off.  

[Hibari]

On 10/21/2018 at 5:42 PM, Hibari said:

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to let me know that.

 

I will hang in there with tears, some fears and hope. 

Alto do you know how or where to order the 2mg tablets?  My new doctor is having trouble finding where to get them.  

[manymoretodays]

Hi Hibari,

I just found this:  Your doctor must order the 2mg tablets directly from GlaxoSmithKline 1-800-334-4153 (NDC 0173-0699-00), which will supply two bottles of 30 tablets at a time, at no charge.

 

It came from:  Tips from tapering Lamictal

about 1/2 way down in that first post(updated in June of this year, the post)

So give that a try.  If the number has changed, it might be find-able on their website  There's a bit more on GlaxoSmithKline there too.

Down at the bottom of that first post, more for doctors writing scripts for combination liquid and tablets too!

Good luck and keep us posted.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by manymoretodays

[Hibari]

Thank you MMT. 

 

I was just going to write that she found them and ordered them!  

 

I think I will be taking the tablets in the daytime when I am most sensitive and the liquid later in the day.  

 

Thanks for the links.  

 

Will keep you posted on my progress.  

 

H

[Hibari]

So day 3 of my drop to 6.5 mgs.  

Mentally I feel okay but I am really feeling the physical withdrawal. 

Nausea, headache, dizzy, hot and cold, anxiety and fatigue.  

 

I have switched to a combination of pill and liquid. Taking the pills in the daytime when my system is more sensitive and the liquid later in the afternoon and evening when my cortisol drops.  

 

Hoping to stabilize soon.  

 

H

[Hibari]

 Day 4 of my drop to 6.5

 

Got some broken sleep last night and though I woke up with the usual symptoms of sweating, headache and nausea this morning, it was less.  

 

I am aware that I function better today though I am tired and foggy headed.  

 

I've been crying a lot these past two weeks and I mean a lot.  I have done some research here and all over the internet and this seems to be a common thing in wd.  That made me feel easier even though the crying feels overwhelming and strikes out of the blue.

 

I am still grieving my dog and miss his company so much right now.  He was a loyal, loving soul and a great companion.  I hope he knew how much he meant to me.  

 

Will post some logs later.  

 

H

[Hibari]

Log for 6.5 drop

 

In order to fit 6. 5, I take 2 additional small doses during the day and at 1 at 3AM

10/22/18 day 2

No sleep

Morning Cortisol spike:  hot flashes, nausea, dizzy, anxiety, foggy mind, blurry eyes.

8:30AM  1.5 liquid Lamictal  1/2 later, speedy feeling, anxiety and small muscle twitches

Force myself to eat scrambled eggs.

11:00AM  .10mgs Liquid Lamictal

12:30 PM 1.50 liquid Lamictal, 45 mins later hyper feeling, nausea,

Toast and banana

3:00PM .20 liquid lamictal

4:30PM  1.5 mg Liquid Lamictal , hit with sadness and depression,

Steak and sweet potatoes

8:30PM 1.5 Liquid Lamictal, 1/2 later low grade hyper feeling, cry

9:30PM Cry deeply on the phone with a friend, feel a bit better but still sad, go to bed at 10:30PM

3AM    .20 Liquid Lamictal

 

10/23/18 Day 3   Switch to tablets and some liquid because liquid is too strong right now for my system

No Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike: Feel very sick in the morning, nausea, dizzy, weepy, no appetite, anxious

8:30M  1.50 Lamictal tablet, 1/2 hour later some speediness but less intense.

11:00AM  .10mg  liquid Lamictal

12:30 1.5 Lamictal Tablet, nausea pretty consistent for the afternoon, but less anxiety after taking tablet,  surge of fear in the afternoon, some muscles twitching, lack of appetite

Toast with coconut oil

3:00PM  .20 liquid Lamictal

4:30PM 1.5 mg Liquid Lamictal   1/2 later, low grade headache, nausea, little muscle twitches, hot flashes 

8:30PM  1.5mg Tablet,  1/2 later small surge of anxiety, feel sad

Chicken, avocado and onions

Call a friend and cry on the phone, feel low grade depression, go to bed at 11APM

3AM .20 Liquid Lamictal

 

10/24/18 Day 4

Got some broken sleep, which is a good thing. 

Morning Cortisol Spike: Nausea, headache, sweaty, foggy head, blurry eyes, but less intense symptoms than the day before.  

8:30AM 1.5 mg Lamictal Tablet, 1/2 later anxiety, anxious, tired.   Small muscle twitches, hot flashes

Eggs and sweet potatoes for breakfast

11:00AM .10 liquid Lamictal

Lots of crying for most of the morning, really miss my dog

12:30PM 1.50mg Lamictal tablet, 1/2 later slight headache, minor anxiety, continue to cry over my dog ,

Call a friend and cry about my dog.

3:00PM  .20mg  Liquid Lamictal ,  1/2 later mood drops, head pressure, nausea,

4:00PM hot flash, sweating, very tired, headache

4:30PM 1.5mg liquid Lamictal.  Very tired. Tired and spacey, over all low mood but manageable. 

 

Going to continue with tablets over liquid till I stabilize.  

 

Alto, you were right, my body needed the drop down even if it was bigger than normal.  Over all I am less hyper after the medication and though I am cring so much, I think it will be a good shift.

 

And you were all right that there are some black hole times to go through till I stabilize. 

 

 

 

[Hibari]

Definitely a black hole day, today.  Very sick with nausea, foggy head,  muscles aches, blurry eyes, dizzy and some physical shakiness.  

 

Another day of lying on the couch and surviving.  If I focus too much on it I will be very upset.  

 

Just so hard.  

 

[Rosetta]

Hibari,

 

I hope you feel better soon.  I know this is very difficult and lying on the couch is not where we want to be.  Thank you for your note on my thread the other day.  That was kind.  You have my support, too.  Hang in there. -R

[wantrelief]

I am so sorry it has been such a rough day, Hibari.  I hope tomorrow is a better. Thinking about you - WR.

[Rabe]

Oh Hibari....rest and take care....I am so sorry you are having to go through such a difficult time.  Hope you feel some better soon!💜

[Hibari]

2 hours ago, Rosetta said:

Hibari,

 

I hope you feel better soon.  I know this is very difficult and lying on the couch is not where we want to be.  Thank you for your note on my thread the other day.  That was kind.  You have my support, too.  Hang in there. -R

Thank you Rosetta.  I know that underneath all my symptoms is a healthy, vital person.   It is so frustrating to have sit qirh wd and let it take its course.   

[Hibari]

2 hours ago, wantrelief said:

I am so sorry it has been such a rough day, Hibari.  I hope tomorrow is a better. Thinking about you - WR.

I appreciate it WR.  I seem to alternate between either having rough physical days or wildly emotional days.  Ever since my body started to reject the amount of medication I am on, it's been a tough time.  

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, Rabe said:

Oh Hibari....rest and take care....I am so sorry you are having to go through such a difficult time.  Hope you feel some better soon!💜

Thank you so much Rabe.  

[Hibari]

I could use a moderator perspective.  

 

Day 7 of my drop down to 6.5

My main symptoms are;

Insomnia 

Nausea

Hot flashes 

Small muscle twitches (these are new and while not constant, show up when I lie down)

Head pressure

Anxiety 

Anger

Fear

tears

Still speedy after I take my dose but less then when I was at a higher dose.  

 

Dose schedule

8:30am 1.5 mg

11AM .10mg

12:30pm 1.5 mg

3pm .20mg

4:30pm 1.5 mg 

8:20pm 1.5

3am .20mg.  

 

Is this just the way it is or do I need any adjustments?  

 

Thank yoi.

 

Hibarin

 

 

[Altostrata]

What times of day do you have each of those symptoms, Hibari?

 

What is your sleep pattern?

 

Which dose did you decrease? When you take lamotrigine at night, do you also feel speedy?

[Hibari]

Kk

[Hibari]

28 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What times of day do you have each of those symptoms, Hibari?

 

What is your sleep pattern?

 

Which dose did you decrease? When you take lamotrigine at night, do you also feel speedy?

Hi Alto,

 

I have not decreased any dose since your suggestion I drop to 6.5 on Sunday. 

 

The only adjustment from from your original plan is that I only take a .20 dose at 3AM instead of .50 so that I can sleep (not that I am).  '

 

When I take the Lamotrigine at night, I initially feel a little sleepy then a little speedy. 

 

I will use my logs for yesterday and today to answer your questions:  today as an example:

Thursday,  10/25/18

No Sleep

7:00AM Morning Cortisol Spike:                   Nausea, exhausted,  foggy head, mentally okay, anxious

8:30am      1.5 mg tablet                                  1/2 hour later speedy feeling, anxious, blurry head, cry with a friend on the phone

Breakfast

11:00am   .10mg  liquid

12:30pm    1.5 mg  tablet                               Tired,  1/2 hour later feel med hit my system, speedy but a bit less

Lunch

3pm .         20mg liquid                                     Low level anxiety, mentally clear, burning sensation in arms, cried out of fear

4:30pm      1.5 mg  tablet                                After acupuncture, hot flashes, sadness

Dinner

8:30pm       1.5  tablet                                    1/2 later moderate speediness, Head pressure, hot flash, cried with a friend on the phone, mood improves as night goes on but unable to relax or sleep

3am             .20mg.  liquid

 

Friday, 10/26/18

No sleep

7:00AM Morning Cortisol Spike:                  Nausea, anxiety, hot flashes, headache, very angry about this process

8:30am       1.5 Tablet                                     45 mins later feel med hit my system, moderate speediness    

11:00am   .10mg  liquid                                No real feeling from the med

12:30pm    1.5 mg  tablet                             Weepy, lots of physical anxiety, hard to relax, lie on couch most of the day with mask over eyes, semi dozing

3pm .         20mg liquid                                  Cry with a friend in the afternoon, nausea, head pressure

4:30pm      1.5 mg  tablet                              Lots of fear about getting through this, very down and sad

8:30pm       1.5  tablet                                    Mood slightly better but want to cry a lot and feel physically tense, I don't think its from the med, I think it's wd .

3am           .20mg liquid  Not taken yet.

 

I have been crying a lot but I've read that's part of withdrawal.  It's the physical sickness that is so debilitating to me.    Then it's hard to relax my mind even though I know this is wd. 

[Altostrata]

Hibari, my intuition is that you should stop taking the .20mg liquid at 3 a.m. Your body is saying, "too much."

 

Then, we'll work on reducing the 8:30 dose.

[Hibari]

21 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Hibari, my intuition is that you should stop taking the .20mg liquid at 3 a.m. Your body is saying, "too much."

 

Then, we'll work on reducing the 8:30 dose.

I'm a big fan of intuition. 

 

Alto, do you think I will be moving lower than 6.5mgs?  That this reaction is more than wd? That it is the adverse reaction to the med?  

 

My fear level is very high and since I'm so used to most advice being about holding, it is new to me. I'm not opposed to it if it helps me out of this state of illness. 

 

So in a short period of time, I've come down from 9mgs, to 8.4, to 6.5mgs.  

 

Reducing the .20 mg will bring me down to 6.3mgs. 

 

I am willing to try with your support and guidance.  

 

[Rabe]

Just thinking about you so much Hibari....wanted you to know!💜

[Hibari]

8 hours ago, Rabe said:

Just thinking about you so much Hibari....wanted you to know!💜

Thank you Rabe.  Got some sleep last night which helped.  

[Hibari]

11 hours ago, Hibari said:

I'm a big fan of intuition. 

 

Alto, do you think I will be moving lower than 6.5mgs?  That this reaction is more than wd? That it is the adverse reaction to the med?  

 

My fear level is very high and since I'm so used to most advice being about holding, it is new to me. I'm not opposed to it if it helps me out of this state of illness. 

 

So in a short period of time, I've come down from 9mgs, to 8.4, to 6.5mgs.  

 

Reducing the .20 mg will bring me down to 6.3mgs. 

 

I am willing to try with your support and guidance.  

 

Hi Alto,  so I skipped the 3am .20 dosage last night and got some sleep.  Dont know how much but I know I slept.  

Had the usual cortisol jolt with sweating, nausea, adrenaline/anxiey and headache but less so.  I also felt mentally clearer and less toxic. 

 

Took 8:30am 1.5 mg dose.  About a 1/2 later, foggy head, pressure in my head, dizzy, feel like crying and nausea. 

 

Very clear this medication is being rejected by my body.  

[Rabe]

Hi HIbari, read your post about the headaches which I think is a common symptom.  I had read others using a heat wrap around their neck and shoulders ... I have tried it and it does help.  Wanted to pass it along.  Take care!

[Hibari]

1 minute ago, Rabe said:

Hi HIbari, read your post about the headaches which I think is a common symptom.  I had read others using a heat wrap around their neck and shoulders ... I have tried it and it does help.  Wanted to pass it along.  Take care!

Thank you Rabe.  Are you heating up a towel or wash cloth? 

[Rabe]

I use a large heating pad but know that others have ordered shoulder wraps and I'm sure a heated towel would work though may cool quickly...IDK.  Certainly use what you have....let me know.  💜  

[Hibari]

I have a heating pad and I can use that.