hardy86: Severe fatigue 24/7 Mirtazapine hell

[hardy86]

Thanks fresh for your very kind information.

Yeah I'm going to go back up dose roboxetine and sit there for a while I guess maybe worst for depression side since big cut. Have you seen people on this forum with fatigue easing or going while still on AD? just hope this doesn't stay the whole time I'm on AD as I have a long way to. I'm of to Coles tonight to buy these items. Thanks fresh I will let you know how I go.

[KarenB]

It will improve Hardy.  People seem to get a symptom which is their 'big one'.  For some it's insomnia, for some exhaustion, for some anxiety... I think it's caused by w/d, but that it links in to whatever may have been a weakness for us before.  I got ear trouble, which had always been a weak point for me in my life.  My husband got itchy/burning skin, and skin has always been his weak point. 

 

All you can do is keep nurturing and soothing yourself.  As Fresh says, the more goodness you can give your body, the better it will cope with the w/d, and one day it will start to ease as the healing gets far enough along. 

[hardy86]

Hi KarenB

Very kind words from you. Yon make me feel better as at times like this you really scared that it's not going to end and more the constant pain that comes from depression. You don't know what is what then struck with more symptoms and the suffering for months and months. And cry and cry

Thanks for reassuring me.

[hardy86]

Hi guys

I got an important question when I first took roboxetine at night it gave me insomnia so I started taking it in the morning 11am. But now as I having been reducing mirt for the last 1 year down to 5.5mg I think at this dose it doesn't have the potent now to put me asleep the full night and cover roboxetine effects causing potential insomnia at night now I fall asleep but tend to wake up maybe sometime around 4am and not shut of after. So I wanted to change my time to 730am taking my roboxetine and see if it can improve my sleep? Is this ok just to change it like that?

Thanks hardy

[brassmonkey]

Hi Hardy-- It shouldn't be a problem, but don't do it all at once.  Most people find it easier to make a series of moves over several days.  So go to 10am for a couple of days, then 9am for a couple etc. until you get to the time you want.

[hardy86]

Hi brassmonkey

Hope your well. Thanks for replying I will follow your advice and do that thank you very much.

Hardy

[hardy86]

HI guys

I haven't been on here for a while I have been bearable these many months. Have done no cuts on my AD for about 7 months been holding mirt 5.5mg and roboxetine 7mg. My fatigue did improve about 30%. But recently took antibiotics for 10 days to kill my parasites that the doctors think was causing my fatigue. After 10 days treatment the last 4 days being of them I have gone right down, my body is so weak, real tired again, no energy, dizzy, drowsy. I'm so depressed as I was getting on with my life. Im scared to be like this again?

Anyone know alot about antibiotics? it has messed me right up. Life is tough AGAIN.

I really hope I settle soon.

I'm taking a probiotic tablet and eating alot of fermented food to repair my gut.

Depressed feeling like this awful. Im scared I'm like this forever.

[AliG]

Hardy.   It's so good to hear that you are improving, but unfortunately it sounds like your sensitized system took a bit of a hit , with the antibiotics. It might take a little while to recover from that , but you should hopefully stabilize soon. It's most likely a temporary setback.  Try and take extra good care of yourself in the meantime. If you can get lots of sleep, sun, nutrition and some light exercise. Walking is ideal , as is Yoga.

 

Fatigue is a common withdrawal symptom and one that should resolve with time. Try not to push yourself too much , at this time and get lots of rest if you can manage it.  

 

This is a discussion on antibiotics :

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9285-cipro-levaquin-azithromycin-z-pack-and-other-antibiotics/

 

Ali

[hardy86]

Thanks AliG

Very supporting words from you. Yeah I hope I settle soon.

[hardy86]

I'm so afraid I won't recover from antibiotics. Been 9 days and I'm so so weak, my body is completely run down. I read it can cause permanent damage to the gut. Full depression has kicked in feeling like this awful.I don't know if I will be stable again.

[SquirrellyGirl]

You will recover, Hardy.  Get yourself an excellent probiotic product with the largest number of strains you can find.  Are you done with treatment? You can rebuild from this.  You can take control of this situation and fight back with:  Good food, probiotics, fermented foods, kiefer, anything and everything you can consume with live cultures.  Your neuro emotions are running the show at the moment, but don't let them.  Tell them that you see them for what they are - tricksters - they are not YOU.  This is temporary.  What you need to do is try to calm down, not let secondary fear get the best of you.  Treat yourself like you one of your children when he is sick.  Nurture, self-love, charge your inner Sanctuary with self-care.

 

Revisit this topic:  Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

The article I read said that probiotics HELP.  Grab that and go with it!

 

SG

[hardy86]

Very kind words and good ideas thanks betsy. It's wonderful to have a friend that is very supportive in this difficult time.

[hardy86]

Need to start taking a vitamin c brand that works.

Edited July 2, 2016 by scallywag
moved from own topic about looking for a good brand of vitamin C

[scallywag]

hardy, I've moved your question about Vitamin C to your introduction.

 

You could probably get some good answers by posting this question on the Australia members thread; the people there will be familiar with the brands you can get in Australia.
 

[hardy86]

I have been reducing Reboxetine for a while. I’m not sure if reboxetine is extremely harder when the dose becomes really small been doing good cuts fine without side effects. But now at a smaller dose and not sure if it’s Reboxetine is known to cause severe isses at the really small doses? I have really bad CFS and so many other health isses it’s not funny. But I just wonder has anyone out there had severe withdrawals at the smaller doses? I mean I know my cut was big 25%. But I done been another cut 28% and no Isses before. 

 

Thanks guys 

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by ChessieCat
correct spelling of Reboxetine

[ChessieCat]

19 March 2018

 

UPDATED 31/1/16

 

Hi. my whole world came crashing down when I took a pill salbuterol which triggered severe anxiety. I went overseas for the birth of my baby on 25/1/14 I took Xanax and Ad. Came back to Australia 3 weeks later, went cold turkey on these meds felt ok for few days than all went to hell. Started taking mirtazapine around the 10-2-14 worked for around 6 weeks than started to get bad symptoms. I Started reducing mirtazapine  15mg  31-1-15     11.25mg,    18-3-15    7.5mg,

 

25-5-15    6.5mg,   22-7-15   5.5mg,    25-8-2015    4.5mg,     11-10-15    5.5mg,  All my problems started when I went down from 5.5 to 4.5 mirt then went back to 5.5 to try and settle but no result. 

 

Reboxitine 1-1-15  8mg,   18-10-15  12mg,     29-10-15  8mg,    14-1-15  6mg    I currently have sleep apnea I'm using c-pap machine which is under control according to the reading data.  I have been very unsettled for the last 5 months. My main symptom is severe tiredness 24/7 which is absolutely hell, bad depression, mild anxiety. I'm not sure if this is chronic fatigue symdrome this tiredness has been going on 3 months and continuing. I have been on mirt 5.5mg for 5months and recently cut reboxetine  8mg to 6mg as I was desperate to see if I get any relief from this 24/7 tiredness. The recent cut hasn't had any new symptoms. Still 24/7 tiredness. I will hold my AD doses here for a while. I don't know what is the best next move for me with my medication and cuts. If I'm still unsettled do I continue to make small cuts? Please help I need guidance or what to do next. . Taking fish oil, and B-vitamins, trying to do gym 4 days a week but struggle now. Using smart weigh scale to measure my pills and go to bed and wake same time everyday. My second baby due on 20/3/16.  Thankyou so much  truly appreciate it. To all the moderators, members, and everyone on this forum thankyou so much. You are the only ones helping me and saving my life and help me to continue on and fight this

[ChessieCat]

Your drug signature is much too complicated, contains a lot of unnecessary information for the moderators and takes up too much of the screen whenever you make a post on the site.  The moderators need a signature which we can glance at quickly to see your history.

 

I have pasted your current signature in the previous post so that the information is still available.

 

Please keep it nice and simple.  We only need details for the last 2 years.  Date, drug and dose only, no symptoms or diagnoses.  The other years can just be an overview. 

 

Please also update the information.  This is the preferred format which is helpful for the mods.  Thank you.

 

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly?

• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 

• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

[ChessieCat]

Many members find that the lower their dose gets the slower they need to go by holding longer and/or reducing by less.

 

Also, just because you were able to make a large cut previously doesn't necessarily mean that you can do it again without issues.

 

If you are notice an increase in symptoms after a cut then you have reduced by too much.

 

Are you keeping daily notes on paper?  This might help you to notice improvements/worsenings.

 

Keep notes on paper about your drug dosages and daily symptom pattern

 

A symptom pattern that occurs regularly over several days could mean the symptoms are from withdrawal, other adverse effects of drugs, or something else you do on a daily schedule.

 

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every individual day over several days is:

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in morning
- Time and description of any symptoms in the morning
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in afternoon
- Time and description of any symptoms in the afternoon
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in evening
- Time and description of any symptoms in the evening
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in middle of the night
- Time and description of any symptoms in the middle of the night (such as waking)
 
And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, such as:
 
6 a.m. Woke and vomited
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Had diarrhea
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Stomachache
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Headache got worse
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke with headache

 

An appointments diary is perfect for this and can be bought at stationery stores. 

They have a page for each day with times for appointments which can be filled in with doses, symptoms etc as shown by Alto.

 

 

[hardy86]

Thanks so much for your kind reply chessiecat. 

Have you seen people report withdrawal problems on Reboxetine in the past doesn’t seem I can see any stories off reboxetime being a real isses? So I Better reduced the 25% down next cut I think. I feel so so so weak, brain out off it, wanna sleep no energy. I thought it was my low iron possibly going lower. I 2 check the iron. Can reducing antidepressants make you so so weak? It’s so awful. 

 

Thanks cheesiecat  

[JanCarol]

Hey Hardy - 

 

I tapered reboxetine.  

 

It is an SNRI like Effexor and Cymbalta, but it is less difficult than those two to come off of.

 

You have been tapering in big chunks instead of 10% increments.  

When you taper at greater than 10% increments, you have to hold longer than a month, depending on the increment.  a 25% increment would want to hold for 3-6 months, depending on symptoms.

 

Do I understand from your signature that you have not tapered since January 2016 (even though your sig says 2015)?  So you have been holding since then?  And you are taking 2 drugs - Mirtazapine and Reboxetine?

If not, please update your signature and send me a PM to let me know when it was done.

 

Additionally, you were tapering Reboxetine at the same time as you were tapering the Mirtazapine.  This is not recommended.  You don't know what your symptoms are from - whether they are from the Mirtazapine taper (which was also not at 10%) or the Reboxetine.

Now you seem to be stuck on both drugs.  The Reboxetine seems to have gone up and down, in large increments - so I'm not sure what is happening there.

 

If the long hold (over 2 years?) is not addressing your fatigue, then there must be other ways to address your fatigue.

Here is one:

 

Others include adjusting your diet.

 

I find that greatly reducing carbs has improved my energy.  I find that eliminating possible allergens like dairy and wheat is essential.  It is really hard to walk past the loaves of fresh bread at the bakery - but - when I think about how hard it is to function on bread - it becomes easier.  It is extremely difficult to address fatigue if your are vegan or vegetarian, as there are a number of essential aminos that you cannot get from a plant based diet.  Saturated fats and animal products feed the brain, and it is posulated by evolutionary anthropologists that we developed our large brain by eating lots of seafood, as many ancient cultures grew up by the sea.  It is possible to remain vegetarian and address fatigue - but it is a lot more challenging.

 

You may suffer from a form of "adrenal fatigue," which may be created by the drugs.  It is more rare than naturopaths would have you believe, but the treatment for it is very basic, and has low potential for harm.

It's not always the drugs, and after 2 years, you are left with 3 options:

 

1.  Increase one of the drugs (but - you tapered two, so which one?  By how much?)

2.  Hold and work on Non Drug Techniques for Helping with Symptoms and Important Topics about Symptoms Including Sleep Problems

3.  Hold 3 months after your last drop (it was too large!), then continue tapering with liquid at 10%

 

Please, the more detailed information you can provide, the better we can help.

What are your symptoms?  Please Keep notes on paper and let us know your daily symptom pattern.

Please see Chessie's notes about notes on paper and your signature, these are essential for us to make any suggestions for you.  Feel free to PM me when you've got more information for us.

I hope you see the sun today!  (another essential part of a good nights sleep and awesome for mood)

[hardy86]

Jancarol 

 

your amazing to write all this down for me. I’m hopeless at computers how do I update my signature? Cause I have lost another 80% off my life that I need to update. Real simple basically I took antibiotics last year and this has destroyed my life further I thought the small fatigue now I would say was actually probably the low dose off the mitt and I have went and destroyed myself further as drs thought fatigue was from parasite. Now I have really but guts h pylori I suspect or maybe sibo as I think the antibiotics wiped out my stomach acid. Also now severe low cortisol all four lows adrenal fatigue your right about that, ebv, mineral imbalances from hair test, hormone isses, bad thyroid high reverse t3 people say hypothyroid, low iron dropped significantly 50% last 4 months not sure if that’s causing me out off breath can hardly walk, not sure combine low iron or thyroid why I’m out off breath when I try to walk normal. Food intolerances, histamine isses l, salicylate issues. Maybe more I forget can it get anyworst for someone and worst part dealing with bad extreme depression. But this depression is cause my body is so so weak fatigue so much more. I think I need to treat my heal my gut now wether it’s the h pylori, sibo etc. 

wanna cry look what I got myself into I lost 90% off my life severe CFS and home bound mainly. Any suggestions please share? Would love to walk again properly without out off breath and feeling unwell at least. Some said maybe t3 med might help. So depressed and trying 2 reduce 2 meds same time. On low doses now mirt 1.8mg and Reboxetine about 1.5mg maybe less. As soon as I started getting histamine isses I couldn’t do all the healthy gut stuff fermented foods, bone broth, all the coconut water, potatoes that we’re doing me so well for adrenals. Thanks so much jancarol for your kind reply in this battle off my life time. 

[JanCarol]

Hey Hardy - 

 

Go here: Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature. to edit your signature.   If I didn't have that link, I would have trouble with it, too.  And I work here!  (so don't feel bad)

You are not helpless.  I am about to throw a bunch of empowering stuff at you.  You may not take it all up - but if you find something in here that helps, then I have done good work.   But you will have to help yourself, only you can be truly responsible and responsive to your own health, mood, and well-being.  Doctors just throw drugs at that stuff, as we know, and that's not always the best way.

 

There are many protocols for healing your gut.  This is not the end of the world!  Gut problems are common, common, common as dirt in withdrawal!   I am loathe to recommend one, as they all have their drawbacks.  If I were you, I would eliminate all sugar, wheat, and probably dairy, too (these feed bad bugs) -  and greatly reduce carbs, drink 2-3 cups of bone broth daily, maybe start juicing (that's where it starts to have a drawback, as some people have had reactions from juicing, so maybe start gently).  You might consider eating Paleo, GAPS or FODMAPS:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/890-scdgapspaleo-diets/

On IBS (which can include SIBO and H.Pylori):  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2318-irritable-bowel-syndrome-gut-bacteria-and-what-you-can-do/ 

On Gluten sensitivity:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2512-gluten-sensitivity-vs-celiac-disease-vs-gluten-intolerance-httpwpmes5nnb-gluten/ 

 

On Histamines: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3503-histamine-food-intolerance/

 

On Probiotics:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1229-probiotics-and-gut-health/

Here's what some folks have said about Green Smoothies:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8469-feeling-better-green-smoothies/    (note, if you you do have thyroid problems, steam broccoli and kale before adding to smoothies or juices)

 

 

Here is an article in Scientific American linking probiotics to mood:  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mental-health-may-depend-on-creatures-in-the-gut/  and another explaining the connection between the gut and brain:  http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/ 

 

I strongly recommend you go to ABC-Catalyst, and watch ALL episodes of "The Gut Revolution," where they have helped IBS, anxiety, overweight - just by changing diet. (no need for poo transplants or anything drastic!)   I know you are in the country and don't have access to the fancy clinics in the Catalyst episode - I don't have access to them, either - but the suggestions are practical, and you can learn a lot just from watching the episodes:   http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/by-topic/HEALTH.htm  (there are 3 episodes of "The Gut Revolution.")  <------Start here, and then decide about the other links I have sent you.  This one is extremely good! and only available to Australians)

OKAY walking, and fatigue.  I did this.  I'm going to suggest for you what was suggested for me.

Every day, in the sunshine, walk a little bit.  I know you say it is hard, and it was hard for me too. (I was in Stage IV Adrenal Fatigue - I have no ovaries or thyroid, and my adrenals were completely flatlined!)    I started with 10 minutes.  At first, I could barely put one foot in front of the other.  Some days it took me 20 minutes to walk my 10 minute circuit.  I walked the same thing every day, because I knew I could do it.  Pick something near your home, in the sun, that you can easily do every day.  Start with 5 minutes.  Do it first thing every day, before breakfast, before anything else.  Just walk 2.5 minutes out, and 2.5 minutes back.  After a week, make it 3 minutes out, 3 minutes back.  Build up to 10 minutes, and if you want to, you can stay there until you are craving more activity.  I stayed there for 3 years!

 

The sunshine, coupled with the movement of your body, will help:

1. Mood
2. Digestion
3. Dysregulation - the tick-tock movement of walking helps to balance the sides of your brain and re-calibrates your nervous system.
4. Sleep
5. Vitamin D and Melatonin  (it's just 10 minutes, no need to "slip slop slap!"  The sun is healing!)
6. Nature - you will notice the changing seasons, new growth, blooms, wildlife, birds, lizards, and this is a blessing.
7. Cardiovascular - move it or lose it! (hint, it does not have to be intense.  People who walk 10 minutes a day add an average of 3 years onto their life span, and reduce death by cancers, heart disease by something like 30% - so nothing to sniff at!)
8. Muscular strength & stamina

On #8, I have to tell you - it took me 3 years before I was ready to participate in other physical activities, like karate, or yoga, or longer bush walks.  THREE YEARS, of trudging around that little circuit once a day.  But it was key to my survival.  This is why I tell people "I hope you see the sun today," because it is so vital!

 

Lastly, regarding T3.  Do not take it for fatigue.  Oh no.  You must have a thyroid condition before you take T3.  It is not advised unless you are clinically hypothyroid.  There is a trend among practitioners to hand it out for fatigue, but that just trains your body not to make it's own thyroid.  Ideally, we'd like to get your thyroid working better, and unless you have an autoimmune disorder like Hashimotos, or clinical or even sub-clinical hypothyroid - then do not use this as a "booster."  It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.  

Tell me a little bit about your town.  Do you have a naturopath?  What is your doctor like?  Is that the only doctor you have access to?  How hard is it for you to get to a larger community for more options?  What is your nearest capital city?  I'm trying to look for opportunities for you, to see if we can find other support for you on the ground to help you work out your gut issues, and maybe even get counseling for your emotional distress.

Tell me about your stressors - what does a typical day look like?  How well supported are you in caring for the children?  Do you have playgroups or do you get days off?  

And - by the way - you are a mother of 2 young'uns.  You are supposed to be tired!  (and I believe personally that a lot of Post Natal Depression starts out as  a nutritional problem, as the mother's body gets so depleted with pregnancy and breastfeeding - and our culture doesn't look after Mum's the way we should, and that rapidly becomes a support problem!)

 

If you help me, I will better be able to help you.  Please see Chessies notes here about how to keep notes on paper.  We need this, and your current signature, in order to help.  

I hope you see the sun today!

 

 

[JanCarol]

PS - sorry so many links - again - I threw a bunch of stuff to you, in the hopes that something will help.

[JanCarol]

Hey Hardy - I had another thought too:

Akathisia vs. Restlessness & Agitatation - when you describe that you are "revved up" - I reckon that is akathisia, another common withdrawal symptom.  It can cause weight loss, because your engine is idling too high when you are suffering from it.  Of course, if you have intestinal problems (from antibiotic and other drugs) - that could increase the weight loss, too.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2016-tremors-shaking-body-vibration/

 Akathisia Nightmare - a discussion among members about the hardships of akathisia (may be triggering, but might also show you that you are not alone)

 

I sent you a PM requesting permission to post some stuff from our PMs...

 

I hope you see the sun today!

JanCarol

[JanCarol]

OK - notes from our PM's so that my work is public, and can be checked by other mods, as well as available for any members who are reading Hardy's thread.  This is done with Hardy's permission.

Hardy asked:

 

Quote

The worst thing right this moment is what causing me the tremor and shaky insomnia last 5 days breathing help me sleep first night in many nights. I thought this tremor shaky was cause make cut on the reboxetine I did from measuring on the scale from 4 to 3mg that was 19 days ago. Symptoms came after around 13 days brain out off it feeling then came weakness tremer insomnia. Not sure it’s now thyroid issues or something like that?

I have recent thyroid test but I think the no haven’t gone worst from the last results.  Stressing suffering whats causing me these severe symptoms? My symptoms late at night maybe around 9pm start to ease? Worst feeling none stop shaking tremor and feeling body in 5th gear not sure what to word it hyper hypo fight and flight mode not sure. I’m just worried jancarol if I’m thinking it’s meds withdrawal and then if it’s not and leaving something untreated?

Can withdrawl cause my severe symptoms I’m describing? 

 

I replied:

 

Quote

Hey Hardy - the short answer is yes.

 

Withdrawal can cause all of these things.  Especially the gut stuff.

 

They can mess with your labs, too - as in - it will look like a thyroid condition, but often settles down over time - it's called "autonomic dysregulation."
 

If you were hypothyroid, you would not be losing weight.

 

You did a 25% cut.  That's too much, the question now is, do you want to updose say to 3.5 mg?  Or do you want to stick it out?

 

With the complication of your digestive issues - I'm not sure what to suggest.

 

I have been listening to this doctor:

 

But -  while this "folk remedy" has a lot going for it, I haven't tested it yet, so I can't confirm whether it works, or how it works.  It hits all the right buttons - she does have products to sell, but she also tells you alternative protocols so that you don't need her products.  The protocols are relatively inexpensive, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of people on the internet proclaiming that "this is the answer."

I'm not telling you it is the answer, it's *an* answer.

The danger for you is that it is a detox protocol, and those are not recommended in withdrawal.  But it may be gentle enough for you to try, and it's likely to help re-balance your intestines.

 

The other suggestions are all about diet and probiotics, and they are slow, but also very effective.

 

 

Hardy replied:
 

Quote

On 3/23/2018 at 3:09 PM, hardy86 said:

wow so if I got no symptoms at 9-7mg reduction on reboxetine they can be severe from 4-3mg? crazy. I have really bad gut isses and and tested for h pylori and doing sibo, histamine issues, salicylate, low stomach acid for sure with leaky gut, food intolerances. Jancarol I made the biggest mistake taking antibiotics last year killed my gut completely bringing up bacteria etc damaging my gut and domino effect the whole body, I can’t do all the healthy foods cause isses above and can’t hardly take supplements cause interaction with my AD that’s why I did I big drop on the recent reboxetine so I can maybe start taking supplements without interactions and still being on mirt. 

Im really hoping it’s the med causing these tremor shaky insomnia and body in 5th gear not sure what’s that called then my mind will be at rest knowing it’s the med and and my suffering will settle just about time to give it. I’ve been so stressing and worrying that if not meds what next...... to look for from 100 health issues. I pray these symptoms stop eventually. So have you heard off these symptoms from med reduction I’ve described a lot jancarol? I was thinking maybe it’s was thyroid. 

 

I answered:
 

Quote

These symptoms sound like autonomic dysregulation, not thyroid.  Gut dysbiosis (slow digestion) is extremely common in withdrawal.

 

Yes, I have heard of these symptoms from withdrawal.

 

Your drops are too large - even if you got away with it before - a 9 to 7 mg reduction is only a 22% reduction, while a 4 to 3 mg reduction is 25%.

 

BOTH reductions are too large, but the second one is larger than the first, and the lower you get, the more important it is to go s-l-o-w-l-y.  The curve is steep for that last little bit.

 

Reboxetine - all the side effects, none of the benefits.

 

As for antibiotic - it may just be bad timing - you took the antibiotic during tapering, and the combination of it plus the dysregulation of your gut = where you are now.  It's temporary, but you may have to work hard on your diet and probiotics to rectify it.  Time will help, too.

 

Hardy replied:

Quote

Body just in constant rev mode

 

which causing the tremor shaky so unsettling severe depression mood swings. I hope this is med withdrawal? And not something else gone worst? Not sure the exact word to call this is it so hyper the word not stop?

 

causing massive depression feeling this full 5th gear mode jancarol Driving me crazy. Hope it’s med. Does it sound med right? So worried if it’s not and maybe thyroid or something not hey? 

 

Thanks so much jancarol is this severe hard times cry in pain it’s that bad to suffer 24/7. Should I get thyroid dr to help me or just thinking something like that gone worst? I hope meds.....

 

And that's what made me think about akathisia (posted above).

Hardy asked: 
 

Quote

I just read your post again. Do I need to worry about autonomic dysregulation

do I need to test for this ASAP worried? 

My body main symptom rate now is constant hyper mode is that the correct word? Like a constant flight and fight mode like that but maybe not that ajist example or I feel anxiety but that part is ok. Constant hyper.... I think is the word. Is that common? So depressing. Cause it’s none stop 

 

 

I answered:

Quote

Hey Hardy - 

 

No there is no test for autonomic dysregulation.

 

It's just a part of withdrawal.  When all of your bits are out of whack, it takes time for things to synchronise again.  It can mess with sleep, digestion, nerves, cognitive function, muscular issues - just about everything, really - and the drugs affect all of these systems.

 

There is a thread about it here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/183-dysautonomia-autonomic-dysregulation/

 

 

Hardy asks:

 

Quote

so this Constant hyper mode feeling is withdrawal you think cause I’ve dropped another 1.2kg in a few days while the body in this constant awful hell mode.  Do you know much on thyroid jancarol?

 

and

Quote

Is there a supplement really worth trying? to help with severe depression jancarol like Same I think it’s called etc. 

 

and

 

Quote

Is hypothyroid the word my body is in jancarol where I can’t shut off my body justs feels it’s reved up. I know high reverse t3 can cause really bad isses but I actually felt ok for a while with this high number being the depression part from the past. I really hope it’s withdrawal so scary being severely like this severe symptoms I’m in. Would you agree if my results like t3 are the same and hasn’t changed must be meds?  

 

NOTE:  Sam-e is not recommended for withdrawal

 

I replied:

Quote

I lost my thyroid, I think that lithium made it worse, and I didn't know then that it's possible to save the thyroid when it "goes bad."  

So - I know less about "saving the thyroid" than others, but a bit about co-factors, etc.  I do understand the difference between hypothyroid and hyperthyroid, and I also have knowledge of what Hashimotos can do (both hyper and hypo symptoms)

 

I do not understand Reverse T3, especially without the context of the other numbers.

 

from: https://www.verywell.com/thyroid-blood-tests-3232895

 

  Quote

When the body is under stress, instead of converting T4 into T3 - the active form of thyroid hormone - the body conserves energy by making what is known as Reverse T3 (RT3), an inactive form of the T3 hormone. The value of RT3 tests in diagnosis is controversial, as some practitioners believe that the body continues to manufacture RT3 instead of active T3, resulting in clinically significant deficiencies in the active T3 thyroid hormone.

 

So it seems that what high Reverse T3 means is that you are stressed. 

 

That can be a temporary condition of withdrawal.  Don't attach too much importance to a single lab test.  If you're that worried, ask for retesting.  If your T3 is fine, then Reverse T3 can still be high as a matter of stress.

 

This is sounding like Health Anxiety, Hypochondria, and Obsession with Symptoms

 

I know that your symptoms are scary, the weight loss is scary.

Read the rest of the page to understand all of your thyroid tests.

Read this one to make better sense of your condition:

https://www.verywell.com/the-role-of-reverse-t3-testing-in-thyroid-treatment-3233184

 

Where it says:  

  Quote

After recovery from the severe illness, the thyroid function test results should normalize.

 

and

 

  Quote

With that, an elevated rT3 level in the setting of severe illness helps doctors exclude a diagnosis of hypothyroidism.

 

I find that the verywell.com website has excellent information on thyroid.

But I don't think that is your problem.

 

You have a gut problem, primarily.

 

I do not recommend any supplements for someone who is so destabilised from withdrawal.  It's a crap shoot - and as likely to cause reactions as it is to help.

 

I do recommend bone broth, low carb, high fat diet.  I have heard that the turpentine protocol has helped many people with intestinal problems.  

 

Here are some articles from a guy I respect:

https://chriskresser.com/sibo-what-causes-it-and-why-its-so-hard-to-treat/

and

https://chriskresser.com/top-4-mistakes-people-make-when-treating-candida-overgrowth/

 

<snip - edit out administrative comments>

 

BREATHE.  You will get through this better if you can be curious instead of panicked.

 

and I also found another article about the gut for Hardy, here:

Quote

Another good article:

https://chriskresser.com/treating-sibo-cold-thermogenisis-and-when-to-take-probiotics/

 

 

I hope this helps you to have it all in one place.

Edited March 25, 2018 by JanCarol
software acting funky, to finish post.

[hardy86]

Sorry admin I don’t know how to change my tittle on the mirt fatigue 24/7? Jancarol has helped me so so much thank you. 

 

So confused if this is withdrawal did my cut on reboxetine on the 4/3/18 from 0.8mg to 0.6mg my body in this constant hyper hypo mode not sure how to name it its none stop like it’s in 5th gear causes me to feel so severe unsettled massive depression being in this mode. My body just like in boom boom boom mode. Been crying it’s that bad lost 1.5kg in few days cause body is revved up from this. I’m starting to feel something in my thyroid and pressure kind off feeling now on my heart last few days. I do have thyroid issues really high reverse t3 over range for a while already never had these symptoms though. So stressed worried worst the suffering none stop if it’s withdrawal or something else. Going to go hospital check my heart tomm and check all thyroid again. When will this severe suffering end don’t wanna sit back thinking withdrawal and then some other serious health issue. 

[JanCarol]

So Hardy tells me his doses:

 

Quote

So I know one pill of reboxetine says 4mg on the front packet. My scale shows 0.000 g 

with nothing on it when I put my current pill dose on it reads scales reads 0.030 

 With a 4mg whole tablet of reboxetine  it weighs 0.199 on my scale.

 

I replied:

 

Quote

What is your scale?  A Gemini-20?

 

And it's set to grams?

OK it seems like you are taking 15% of total dose.  

 

15% of 4 mg = 0.6 mg.

 

I don't know how quickly you got to to this.

 

0.8 mg to 0.6 mg is a 25% taper.  

 

If you want to updose, I suggest going back to 0.72, or 0.7 mg.  That would be 0.36 on your scale.

If that updose improves your symptoms, then you know you went too fast, and you need to do 10% tapers only for the rest of the way out.

 

When I tapered, I think I dropped off around 0.5 mg - but since you are having troubles, I don't suggest that for you.

 

Also, it would be good to hear what Non-Drug Techniques for Dealing with Symptoms you are using.  Mindfulness?  Breathing?  Exercise?  Magnesium baths?   In order to quit one thing (the drugs) you must replace it with another (skills, techniques, tools).

I hope you see the sun today!

[hardy86]

Titled: Desperately for answers Ativan working fine, then added endep and Ativan stopped working

 

Please help I will keep this short and simple as possible. Basically taking mirtizapine (1.7mg) and reboxetine (0.5mg) for about 5 years haven’t reduced for 1.5 years cause dealing with other severe health issue Lyme etc etc. 

 

Been taking Ativan for about 3 months around 2mg. Recently added amitriptyline on 24/3/20 10mg for depression, anxiety and help stomach issues for only eight nights and had to stop cause started causing more bad anxiety.
In that period of taking amitriptyline for 8 nights 

I also did a cut of Ativan 2mg of around 22% to 1.5mg on 28/3/20. Yes I felt more anxiety on those 2 days I cut Ativan to 1.5mg but only stayed on 1.5mg for 2 days and went straight back to 2mg cause anxiety went more severe and feel was the amitriptyline. 
Now my biggest question have stopped amitriptyline off only eight nights and now all of a sudden my Ativan 2mg doesn’t work. I know people say reach tolerance Possibly on Ativan but ever since trialing amitriptyline, It seems it stopped my Ativan somehow working completely. Now I’m suffering severe panic 24/7 since Ativan no longer hardly works lost 85% effectiveness? 
I can’t live like this severe anxiety killing me and feel sucidal. Not sure what to do wait it out been 8 nights off amitriptyline. 
Thinking go Drs to trial another antidepressant if I don’t settle no way I can survive this. And all this on top off already losing my life with Lyme, cfs, adrenal fatigue etc. 

please any suggestions? What all went so wrong and what I could do as options? 
Thanks 

Edited April 9, 2020 by manymoretodays
moved from tapering, to introduction, added title

[manymoretodays]

Hi hardy86,

 

I'm sorry to hear it is going so tough.

What are you taking now?

Just note the time on the left, and then the drug, by name, and dose.

If you can, try to note your symptoms as well, before and after each drug.

 

8 days on the Amitryptiline/Endep?  How much, or what was the dose?  And how did you stop it?

Do you have any left?

When did you cut the Ativan down?  And then when did you go back up on it?

I'm not sure what went wrong.  Might be WD from the Amitryptiline.......even though, it was only 8 days on it.  Might also be WD from the Ativan kicked in too, with a 0.5 mg taper, that's a 25% taper.

 

Here's you present signature too:

 

Currently suffer extreme CFS basically home a lot. Can hardly walk all I get out off breath feel unwell that’s a mystery I don’t know why thyroid gone worst Not sure? I do have hypothyroid for a while already. I have discovered so many health issues that need to be addressed. I’m on currently on Mirtizipine 1.8 mg and Reboxetine 0.6mg. I did a cut on reboxetine on the 4/3/18 from 0.8mg to 0.6mg. Not sure my severe symptoms are med related. Constant hypo mode 24/7 like body in 5th gear, insomnia,  pressure feeling on my heart, feelings on my thyroid. Weakness tremor shaky down abit now. Lost 1.5kg being constant revved up mode in few days. 

 

If you'd like to update now, that would be great.  AccountSettings/signature and then just be sure and hit the SAVE button when done.

 

Welcome back and so sorry, hardy.  I'm going to ask the other mods to take a look too.  Hang in there now, please,  ((((((hardy86))))

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 @hardy86

Edited April 9, 2020 by manymoretodays
?'s

[manymoretodays]

hardy86,

Here's some helps for anxiety you might try:

We strongly encourage members to learn and use non drug coping techniques to help get through tough times.

 

Understanding what is happening helps us to not get caught up with the second fear, or fear of the fear.  This happens when we experience sensations in our body and because we don't understand them we are scared of them and then start to panic.

 

This document has a diagram of the body explaining what happens in the body when we become anxious:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/AnxietySelfHelp.pdf

 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

 

Audio FEMALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Audio MALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Dr Claire Weekes suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy

 

Resources:  Centre for Clinical Interventions (PDF modules that you can work through, eg:  Depression, Distress Intolerance, Health Anxiety, Low Self-Esteem, Panic Attacks, Perfectionism, Procrastination, Social Anxiety, Worrying)

 

On 4/27/2017 at 12:03 PM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try.

 

Which might feel like too much to focus on now, I realize.  You could try some brief guided meditations as well, there are some in the non-drug coping link above.  And just breathe, in and out, pause between the breaths.  4 seconds in, through your nostrils if you can, HOLD for 7 seconds, and then out for 8 seconds.  Keep trying and counting, until you feel even just a bit calmer.

 

 

[hardy86]

Titled:  Hell Ativan stop working?  Since trial new AD?

 

Please help I will keep this short and simple as possible. Basically taking mirtizapine (1.7mg) and reboxetine (0.5mg) for about 5 years haven’t reduced for 1.5 years cause dealing with other severe health issue Lyme etc etc. 

 

Been taking Ativan for about 3 months around 2mg. Recently added amitriptyline on 24/3/20 10mg for depression, anxiety and help stomach issues for only eight nights and had to stop cause started causing more bad anxiety. 

In that period of taking amitriptyline for 8 nights 

I also did a cut of Ativan 2mg of around 22% to 1.5mg on 28/3/20. Yes I felt more anxiety on those 2 days I cut Ativan to 1.5mg but only stayed on 1.5mg for 2 days and went straight back to 2mg cause anxiety went more severe and feel was the amitriptyline. 

Now my biggest question have stopped amitriptyline off only eight nights and now all of a sudden my Ativan 2mg doesn’t work. I know people say reach tolerance Possibly on Ativan but ever since trialing amitriptyline, It seems it stopped my Ativan somehow working completely. Now I’m suffering severe panic 24/7 since Ativan no longer hardly works lost 85% effectiveness? 

I can’t live like this severe anxiety killing me and feel sucidal. Not sure what to do wait it out been 8 nights off amitriptyline. 

Thinking go Drs to trial another antidepressant if I don’t settle no way I can survive this. And all this on top off already losing my life with Lyme, cfs, adrenal fatigue etc. 

please any suggestions? What all went so wrong and what I could do as options? 

Thanks 

Edited April 9, 2020 by manymoretodays
moved to introduction

[Shep]

On 4/8/2020 at 6:59 AM, hardy86 said:

Been taking Ativan for about 3 months around 2mg. Recently added amitriptyline on 24/3/20 10mg for depression, anxiety and help stomach issues

 

On 4/8/2020 at 6:59 AM, hardy86 said:

Thinking go Drs to trial another antidepressant if I don’t settle no way I can survive this.

 

Hardy, are you here to taper off psych drugs or to get help setting up a new drug cocktail?

 

Please note we're not doctors here, so all we can do is help you taper off. We can't recommend new drugs or help you set up a new drug cocktail. For that, you'll need to work with your doctor. And there are websites for people who wish to take psych drugs that we can refer you to for support, if this is your preference.

 

Please let us know so we can best advise you. 

[hardy86]

28 minutes ago, Shep said:

 

 

Hardy, are you here to taper off psych drugs or to get help setting up a new drug cocktail?

 

Please note we're not doctors here, so all we can do is help you taper off. We can't recommend new drugs or help you set up a new drug cocktail. For that, you'll need to work with your doctor. And there are websites for people who wish to take psych drugs that we can refer you to for support, if this is your preference.

 

Please let us know so we can best advise you. 

 

[hardy86]

2 minutes ago, hardy86 said:

 

Hi shep

 

bare with me I wanna answer these questions,

I seem to not be able to use computers properly as I don’t have my sister helping me. Not sure what to press when replying to your comments? So I press the quote button is that correct? 
 

thanks 

[manymoretodays]

Hi hardy86, @hardy86

You should see a reply box below posts.  That's where you type in a reply.

 

And it appears you have managed to quote partial posts too.  To do that, you select the part of a post you wish to quote, and then the option to quote comes up.  Then tick/or click that.

Full post quotes can be done by just selecting the Quote button and tic/clicking it.  The quote button is in the lower part of the screen, with each reply.

 

Then type in your reply below the quote.

You have up to an hour to edit your posts.

 

It's not necessary to quote every post that you reply to.   You could note take, and then type in your responses, when you reply.

 

13 hours ago, hardy86 said:

Please help I will keep this short and simple as possible. Basically taking mirtizapine (1.7mg) and reboxetine (0.5mg) for about 5 years haven’t reduced for 1.5 years cause dealing with other severe health issue Lyme etc etc. 

 

Been taking Ativan for about 3 months around 2mg. Recently added amitriptyline on 24/3/20 10mg for depression, anxiety and help stomach issues for only eight nights and had to stop cause started causing more bad anxiety. 

In that period of taking amitriptyline for 8 nights 

I also did a cut of Ativan 2mg of around 22% to 1.5mg on 28/3/20. Yes I felt more anxiety on those 2 days I cut Ativan to 1.5mg but only stayed on 1.5mg for 2 days and went straight back to 2mg cause anxiety went more severe and feel was the amitriptyline. 

Now my biggest question have stopped amitriptyline off only eight nights and now all of a sudden my Ativan 2mg doesn’t work. I know people say reach tolerance Possibly on Ativan but ever since trialing amitriptyline, It seems it stopped my Ativan somehow working completely. Now I’m suffering severe panic 24/7 since Ativan no longer hardly works lost 85% effectiveness? 

 

And here ^, I quoted part of your post from 12 hours ago.  I did move that one here, as well.

You may have had an adverse reaction to the amitriptyline, hardy86.  Or a serious drug interaction.

 

I'm also finding that mirtazapine and amitriptyline have major interactions.  Drug Interactions Report- Drugs. com

I was not able to put reboxetine in, as it's not a drug that is used in the U.S., and I can't find a comparable drug to put in the interactions checker.

Reboxetine- Wikipedia

 

You can also go to Drug Interactions- Drugs.com  and do a interactions check freshly too.  Do check the one I did though, as it IS pretty worrisome.  I'm not sure I got all the drugs in correctly( and I did add the amitriptyline in the first one, just to see)

 

When did your symptoms worsen?  In relation to when you took the amitriptyline?

 

So......it may be a good thing that you are now off the amitriptyline now.  We are only peer counselors here hardy86.  You should contact your doctor, if you have not yet, and let them know what is going on now.   The doctor who prescribed this to you, and knows you.  

I don't know how long it might take for the serotonergic reaction to settle down now.   IF, indeed, that is what is going on.

 

Oh best hardy86,  I so hope that symptoms have improved, even a bit right now.  I think you do need to work with a doctor now or some kind of licensed professional.

You've done a lot of changes recently, and it may take a bit for symptoms to settle down now.  Please be careful, and kind to yourself, and know that this won't last forever.

 

I left you a packet of information too, in one of the above posts, for non-drug coping as well.  So hoping that you find something helpful there as you recover.

Best to post right here, with updates now, or other further concerns, responses.  This is your Introduction page, with a lot of history on it too, and can act as a journal of types for you.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited April 9, 2020 by manymoretodays
clarity, ?'s

[Altostrata]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:59 AM, hardy86 said:

Titled: Desperately for answers Ativan working fine, then added endep and Ativan stopped working

 

Please help I will keep this short and simple as possible. Basically taking mirtizapine (1.7mg) and reboxetine (0.5mg) for about 5 years haven’t reduced for 1.5 years cause dealing with other severe health issue Lyme etc etc. 

 

Been taking Ativan for about 3 months around 2mg. Recently added amitriptyline on 24/3/20 10mg for depression, anxiety and help stomach issues for only eight nights and had to stop cause started causing more bad anxiety.
In that period of taking amitriptyline for 8 nights 

I also did a cut of Ativan 2mg of around 22% to 1.5mg on 28/3/20. Yes I felt more anxiety on those 2 days I cut Ativan to 1.5mg but only stayed on 1.5mg for 2 days and went straight back to 2mg cause anxiety went more severe and feel was the amitriptyline. 
Now my biggest question have stopped amitriptyline off only eight nights and now all of a sudden my Ativan 2mg doesn’t work. I know people say reach tolerance Possibly on Ativan but ever since trialing amitriptyline, It seems it stopped my Ativan somehow working completely. Now I’m suffering severe panic 24/7 since Ativan no longer hardly works lost 85% effectiveness? 
I can’t live like this severe anxiety killing me and feel sucidal. Not sure what to do wait it out been 8 nights off amitriptyline. 
Thinking go Drs to trial another antidepressant if I don’t settle no way I can survive this. And all this on top off already losing my life with Lyme, cfs, adrenal fatigue etc. 

please any suggestions? What all went so wrong and what I could do as options? 
Thanks 

 

Those are very low doses of mirtazapine and reboxetine, are they not? Were you tapering them? Why did you stop tapering?

 

(Please review adverse effects from reboxetine here.)

 

An adverse effect of regular benzodiazepine use is depression. When you regularly take a short-acting benzodiazepine such as Ativan, a very common adverse effect is interdose withdrawal between doses. This can be surges of anxiety. Is that what happened?

 

My guess is you were experiencing adverse effects of the benzo, you added amitriptyline. Four days later you had what you thought was an adverse reaction to amitriptyline but was actually withdrawal from your precipitous 22% reduction of Ativan. Amitriptyline didn't cause this.

 

What do you mean "my Ativan 2mg doesn’t work"? How long have you felt "severe panic 24/7"? What times of day do you take it, at what dosages?

 

Do you feel better or worse at any particular times of day?

 

I am doubtful your problem can be solved with an antidepressant. It seems benzo-related to me.