methuselah: Hi all! Brief intro and advice?

[methuselah]

I think I’m going to start using this as a sort of check in and journal instead of only coming here to post when I’m freaking out.    That said…

 

Yesterday was terrible but it got better as the day progressed. I watched some 80’s and 90’s movies in the evening with a friend and I enjoyed the nostalgia from that.  I watched multiplicity, the burbs, and license to drive.  I was born in 79 so these movies were generally movies I watched before any anxiety issues crept into my life and certainly before the bane of my (our?!) existence, ssri’s.  Last night was the first window I’ve had in days worth mentioning and god was it welcome.  I watched these movies at a friends place in downtown Raleigh last night and it was rowdy.  I saw the people walking around, drinking, yelling, singing, laughing.  God I long for those “days of yore” and do admit jealousy and envy, it’s only natural I suppose.  
 

I have a cold, not covid,  but dealing with it is a walk in the park.  I think it actually took my mind off of the ssri crap tbh.  If only I could infect myself with a little cold virus for a few years to get through this haha.  I’m always looking for a solution, or a fix, acceptance continues to be a challenge. 
 

I slept through the night 8 hours and didnt wake up with any crazy shyt, no chills, racing thoughts, deep dark doom in the brain feelings, nada! This morning was good too but now I’m home alone again and it’s quiet and I don’t really like my place in suburbia but it could be worse, I know.  Quiet and lonely.  Reading a book and something triggered me and got a bout of IT that were intense for an hour or two.  I guess they’ve faded for now.  I think my house triggers me as it reminds me of all of this. What a trip.  
 

Another 80’s movie tonight I reckon, lost boys perhaps.  Ok, that is all. I hope everyone is doing as well as possible on their journey through life.  

[ChessieCat]

9 hours ago, methuselah said:

I think I’m going to start using this as a sort of check in and journal instead of only coming here to post when I’m freaking out.

 

That can be helpful for you, especially if you are not keeping any notes for yourself elsewhere.  I have found it interesting to look back on my posts where I have recorded improvements.  Over the course of a 6 year taper it is very difficult to remember everything.  And being able to look back over your journal can help you to see improvements that you don't realise have happened because some things happen so gradually over a fairly long period of time.  I found that sometimes a member would write about a symptom and I would think oh that's right I used to have that but I don't now, or it isn't as bad or as frequent as it had been.

[methuselah]

Thanks CC.  I do keep a symptom journal in a spreadsheet that I pretty consistently update.

 

My cold has gotten worse, cough, cold, more exhausted than usual, just feel like I’m sick.  Going to take a proper covid test at the local pharmacy tomorrow.  
 

Woke up this morning with racing thoughts again.  They were coherent this time, it was mostly thinking about a fix to the issue.  Take a benzo, remeron, anything to escape my current state basically.  Funny I never craved the benzos coming off of them, seems the ssri is exponentially more difficult for me. Feel like a drug addict.  No fun here so far today.  Can’t imagine the cold is helping things.  

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, methuselah said:

Woke up this morning with racing thoughts again.

 

I went to 0mg in November 2021 (last year) after a slow and careful taper with minimal issues.

 

I got sick with the flu in June this year 2022 and had plumbing issues, not me but the house, and I got very bad looping thoughts which felt like I was going mad.  And because I was sick I couldn't even scream and try and let some stress out.  I have had several times when the looping thoughts have returned but not as bad.  Thankfully another member who I am in contact with via PM (just general chit chat, not WD) supported me during this time which really helped.  I was sick for 4 weeks and I think I had the looping thoughts for about 2 of them.

 

It definitely seems to be the stress that causes them.

[methuselah]

Thanks Chessie.  Glad to hear you got through and had some support during that.  Support is helpful no doubt. I’m very familiar with your taper, I’ve read your thread and looked at your taper chart A few times. 

 

Ya, I’ve been going super slow with the taper, check my sig, but I’ve still been dealing with symptoms that come and go with some more sever than others.  The racing thoughts started after I tried and reacted poorly to that concentrace stuff (smallest dose possible 1 drop instead of 10 start dose and instead of 40 drops maintenance). that was Tuesday I think.  
 

Surely you’re right though, this cold or covid or whatever it is, is not helping things that’s for sure.  Great timing!  When it rains it pours as “they” say. I hope it goes away soon and I get to a better baseline as I want to keep the taper moving with some sort of pace.  It’s been erratic so far.

 

I’ve scoured this site and haven’t found a really good way to taper Prozac.  The brass monkey method doesn’t seem to be recommended due to the half life of Prozac.   Micro tapering isn’t recommended either for the same reason.  Obviously 10% or less per month.  Any thoughts or links to how to best handle my taper when I’m ready to move forward again???  The tips for tapering Prozac thread doesn’t seem to have any best practice necessarilly.  
 

Thanks again so much  for your support and reading my thread  🥰🙏

[methuselah]

@Altostrata@manymoretodays

 

I hate to bother you, but i could really use some help.  i'm at the end of my rope here and getting desperate.  I'm losing it.  This morning about 2 hours after taking prozac dose, i started to get skin burning followed by extreme bout of anxiety, ocd, racing thoughts.  I took a walk outside but that did little to nothing.  I really don't know what to do.  I'm at the tail end of a pretty bad cold, two covid tests negative, that doesn't seem to have helped anything.  I really don't know what to do here, I feel quite helpless and lost and I'm out of ideas on what is even happening with me.  Is it the prozac, is it withdrawal, should i cut my dose faster.  This does not feel like anything i've ever dealt with in my entire life, it's very intense and unpleasant.  It's definitely an iatrogenic spiral of sorts.   My psych said to try a very small dose of clonidine, which i don't want to do but I'm ready to try anything at this point. 

 

Here's a thought.  I currently take the prozac dose at 815am and symptoms usually start to get worse and peak 2-3 hours after dose then level off, and even sometimes improve, as the day goes on and as evening arrives...usually, not always.  What if i push my dose back an hour or two then see if symptoms then start at a later time in the day.  I could keep daily notes for a few days of course and put them here.  I really don't know what else to do.

 

thanks for any thoughts or advice. 

[manymoretodays]

How do you presently dose practically......I mean are you weighing or using liquid?

I think that is worth a try.......to push your dose back an hour or 2, as long as you don't mess with your sleep. 

Also......you could do another taper as well, perhaps by less than 10% to test the waters again of tapering.

 

You've had something no doubt, in the way of a virus, even if not Covid.......that CAN throw off your tapering and healing journey.  And......you are really sensitive to things now.......many of us are early into WD. 

 

OCD stuff that might help:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/5997-health-anxiety-hypochondria-and-obsession-with-symptoms/

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/3882-obsessive-compulsive-disorder-or-ocd-repetitive-intrusive-thoughts-compulsive-behaviors/

 

Burning skin topic:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/6217-burning-skin-burning-feet/

 

and trust me, I'm not trying to underplay your symptoms or insult you.......take what you need from the links offered, and leave the rest.  You might find something that gives you comfort, in knowing others are dealing with similar things here too.

 

Sending healing vibes methuselah,  you just have to get through today for now.  I hope for you turning the corner soon.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

[methuselah]

Thanks MMT. I know you’re not downplaying anything, I really appreciate you chiming in.  
 

my current dosing is opening the Prozac capsule and dumping the powder into distilled water.  10mg Prozac Into 10ml water then I extract 1.1ml and drink the rest ti get my current dose of 8.9mg

And trust me, I’m very tempted to try another taper of say 2.5 to 5% to see what happens.  I’m also very tempted to hold.  It’s impossible to say what’s best and that does get to me as well.

 

I definitely absolutely obsess about my symptoms and I’m working on that ina. Variety of ways.  Sometimes the feelings can be so intense it seems impossible to accept.  I just started reading, and am almost done with Claire Weekes book “Hope and Help for your nerves”.  I see a lot of what is advocated here regarding acceptance in her work.  
 

Today is better, yesterday was bad.  Some if the challenge for me is the constant morphing of symptoms.  I “get used to” all these things and accept them ( depression, anxiety, fatigue, DR), then something entirely new shows up and new acceptance has to be implemented.  
 

Yesterday and today are like burning tingling skin on and off, anxiety reminiscent of how I felt before all the drugs, the strong intrusive thoughts and agitation, some RLS like feelings in legs and arms.  Good times

 

edit and pS - I did push the dose back an hour today but what happened yesterday didn’t happen today.  Perhaps it was from being sick ramping things up, or from that minuscule amount of supplement I took last week, or just from the drug and/or tapering, who knows.

 

❤️

M

[ChessieCat]

8 hours ago, methuselah said:

And trust me, I’m very tempted to try another taper of say 2.5 to 5% to see what happens.  I’m also very tempted to hold.  It’s impossible to say what’s best and that does get to me as well.

 

One of the big issues with tapering Prozac is the long half life.  It can take 2-3 weeks for withdrawal symptoms to appear, whereas with most other ADs it can take 4-7 days.

 

If you make too large a reduction and you updose then it takes about the same amount of time for the dose to get to full strength.  When you think about it by the time you updose it might be better to hold, 6 of one half a dozen of the other but with the updose you end up still having to taper off more drug so it could end up taking you longer.  So knowing that I think it would be better to taper by smaller amounts and with more likelihood that you are going to be able to make another reduction 4 weeks later than to reduce by a larger amount not knowing if you will need to hold for longer than 4 weeks.

 

Just some things to consider, which might also help you to not be so obsessive about things, but relax knowing that you are gradually chipping away at it.

[methuselah]

Thanks CC.  I’m getting hit pretty hard with symptoms today.  Yesterday was ok and bearable.  Again, I can’t imagine that microscopic amount of concentrace crap throwing me into this kind of wave, I think it was likely a coincidence. even still, no more supps save mag and fish oil.
 

I think I need to hold for awhile as I’m not functional at present and really struggling.  I could not for the life of me get out of bed this morning until 1230pm, felt like I was hit with a truck. Also very cold and hot. Also very very depressed.  anxious too.
 

I wonder if with Prozac, the half life is such that withdrawal could be even further delayed than 3 weeks.  Perhaps my cuts over the last few months are catching up with me now as the last few weeks, on and off, is the worst I’ve felt since I started the taper. Another member here posited the same theory and it does make sense.  Prozac is very tricky in this regard, you’re rigjt.

 

I think after I find some stability, I’ll do a small cut of 2.5-5% and hold for a few months to see what happens.  That of course assumes I can find stability

 

IMHO, Tapering off Prozac makes the benzo taper look liken a walk in the park, which isn’t great.

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, methuselah said:

I wonder if with Prozac, the half life is such that withdrawal could be even further delayed than 3 weeks.  Perhaps my cuts over the last few months are catching up with me now as the last few weeks, on and off, is the worst I’ve felt since I started the taper. Another member here posited the same theory and it does make sense.  Prozac is very tricky in this regard, you’re rigjt.

 

Yes, withdrawal symptoms could appear even later, especially if you happen to be a slow metaboliser.

 

And yes previous cut/s can catch up on you. Q:  Did you make a reduction from 12mg to 9.5mg in May 2022?  If yes, then that was a 20.8333% decrease.

 

You then made 3 more cuts after that, which were reasonable reductions, but preceded by a huge reduction.  So I think it's a combination of two things; large reduction and then exacerbated by continuing to taper.

 

By the way, you have been a member since 2018 so I am very surprised that you did the above because you know the SA tapering protocol right from the start.

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, methuselah said:

IMHO, Tapering off Prozac makes the benzo taper look liken a walk in the park, which isn’t great.

 

I think you probably did a much more careful taper off the benzo than you have done for the Prozac.  Just saying (see my previous post).

[methuselah]

I went off 3.5mg of Valium in 9 months using a daily drop of roughly .01mg. Some small holds and some bigger drops in there too.  Jumped off at .35mg, which was a mistake.  

Do you think that’s more careful than 4 months to come down 1.1mg of Prozac?Maybe I misunderstand your comment?

[ChessieCat]

6 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Q:  Did you make a reduction from 12mg to 9.5mg in May 2022? 

 

You haven't answered this question.  And it is very relevant to the discussion of the difference between the benzo taper and the Prozac taper.

[methuselah]

7 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

And yes previous cut/s can catch up on you. Q:  Did you make a reduction from 12mg to 9.5mg in May 2022?  If yes, then that was a 20.8333% decrease.

 

You then made 3 more cuts after that, which were reasonable reductions, but preceded by a huge reduction.  So I think it's a combination of two things; large reduction and then exacerbated by continuing to taper.

 

By the way, you have been a member since 2018 so I am very surprised that you did the above because you know the SA tapering protocol right from the start.

so, not quite.  I reduced from 12mg to 10 I’m December 2021  when I had a horrid reaction to the generic liquid, it was prob expired or a bad batch low dose.  I went to the brand name capsule of 10mg in desperation, which was a mistake in hindsight but I was lost and had no idea what was happening.  
 

I waited for 6 months to stabilize, things never did and kinda got worse so Alto said I may be on too much so I dropped to 9.5 and so on.  

[Altostrata]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:11 AM, methuselah said:

I currently take the prozac dose at 815am and symptoms usually start to get worse and peak 2-3 hours after dose then level off, and even sometimes improve, as the day goes on and as evening arrives...usually, not always.

 

This is the first time in more than 4 years that you have reported this symptom pattern.

 

Did you ever have a covid test?

[methuselah]

I need to fix my sig, my bad for confusing 

[ChessieCat]

2 minutes ago, methuselah said:

I need to fix my sig, my bad for confusing 

 

That is what I was going by for your reductions.  Sorry but I don't have the time or patience to read back through posts trying to get the information.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature  Remember to SAVE

[methuselah]

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

This is the first time in more than 4 years that you have reported this symptom pattern.

 

Did you ever have a covid test?

 

I had 2 covid test, self administered home test that showed negative.  Took a rapid test at a walgreens also negative.  going back to Walgreen's tomorrow for a PCR that should be definitive.  

 

Sometimes the symptoms happen like that after a take the drug, other times they don't.  i just tested it yesterday and it didn't happen.  this morning i got hammered with some nasty stuff, could not roll out of bed until noon, felt like hit with a truck.  Highly depressed, more burning skin, some anxiety.  

 

[methuselah]

3 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

That is what I was going by for your reductions.  Sorry but I don't have the time or patience to read back through posts trying to get the information.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature  Remember to SAVE

 

My apologies CC.  I just fixed it.  I updated it recently to try to be more accurate but obviously failed there.  sorry again, thanks for taking the time.  

[Altostrata]

You have a habit of making a big deal out of one-off symptoms. Please stop tagging me when you have medical problems.

[methuselah]

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

You have a habit of making a big deal out of one-off symptoms. Please stop tagging me when you have medical problems.

 

I didn't see being non functional as one off with severe anxiety, burning skin, deep deep depression, etc a one off thing.  Things have spiraled pretty bad for me in the last few weeks and i haven't made any changes.  I do realize that i've been tagging you too much and i apologize for that, i'm struggling with these symptoms that reared their head in an intense way and it has been quite distressing.  I'm just trying to debug this thing.  I didn't mean to be an annoyance, truly i didn't.  

[Altostrata]

You must get your health anxiety in hand. This has been an issue for a long time.

[ChessieCat]

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/health-anxiety-self-help

[methuselah]

Thanks folks.  I really do appreciate it.  My focus on the symptoms, as bad as they are, exacerbates them leading to a spiral where I’m constantly thinking about symptoms, analyzing them, etc. etc.  I do understand and recognize it’s a problem.  

 

Thanks for the link CC, I’ll def check it out.

[methuselah]

Hi Everyone,

 

I haven't posted in a while so i figure it's time for an update.  I've been on some form of "serotogenic" agent since i was 17, i'm currently 43.  I've tapered from 12mg Prozac to 8.8mg since Dec 24 of last year...a 26.67% decrease.  I'm currently holding my dose at 8.8mg.  Significant events from the last year or so and my taper schedule follow:

 

Nov 24 2021- withdrawal type reaction to presumably bad batch or expired batch of generic liquid fluoxetine triggers an early start to my ssri taper.  Was holding due to what i believed was protracted benzo withdrawal, which was improving, brought on by several day overindulgence in alcohol 3 months post taper when feeling pretty much back to normal.

Dec 24 2021 - 12mg generic liquid fluoxetine to 10mg brand name prozac capsule - this was tough

May 23 2022 - 10mg Prozac to 9.5mg.  This drop done after 6 month hold, still not feeling great so started tapering again slowly.

July 1 - 9.25mg

August 14 - 9mg

August 30 - 8.9mg

September 15 - very bad reaction to micro dose of "concentrace" supplement - lasted about 2 weeks

October 9 - PFizer bivalent covid booster - horrid reaction, haven't felt right since.  Not an anti-vaxxer by any means, but I will not be getting another covid vaccine.

October 15 - 8.85mg

November 1 - End to 2.5 year relationship, EXTREMELY difficult for me.  Abandonment feelings, guilt and shame, strong depression, intrusive thoughts, and sleep issues begin in earnest here.

December 1 - 8.80mg

Dec 31 - moved to new home

 

The size of my drops have become smaller and smaller due to an increased effect of withdrawal symptoms and some significant life events.  Symptoms include:

-Strong bouts of depression

-DP/DR

-Feeling like i'm going crazy or going to lose it trapped in my head/body

-Intrusive thoughts and visuals, obsessive thinking.  Sometimes the IT are very strange thoughts, sometimes more normal thoughts like about a breakup or whatever...but these can be relentless.

-Restlessness

-cold/shivers - especially after eating

-Irritability/Agitation/Anger/Rage

-Insomnia - this usually comes in the form of delayed sleep rather than inability to sleep.  Can't sleep until 4am or so.  If it's a weekend i can sleep in and i'll sleep 6-7 hours, if it's a weekday I have to wake up so i'm getting 3-4 hours a sleep, which is not enough for me.

-Auditory disturbances

-Fear of symptoms/obsession with symptoms

-Wanting to cut when I feel bad just to get it over with as i'm already miserable

-sort of a fear of being alone i guess.  it's uncomfortable

-lack of enjoyment in things, i guess that maybe goes without saying

-more but those are the big ones.

 

I do get some windows since the Covid shot so it's not all bad, just like 80% bad.  Since the breakup windows have been very elusive.  That said, last week i had the best day i've had in a month or more.  It was just a level of ok'ness and feeling normal.  It didn't last but it was beautiful.  I've been holding since Dec 1 and plan to hold for at least 2 more months.  Holding is very very hard, but the alternative is harder.  I work with a therapist twice a week and it's great to talk and he thinks i'm progressing, but it feels like little seems to help the intrusive thoughts and managing symptoms.  I work on accepting things as they are, but this is also very difficult.  It's a practice no doubt.

 

That's my update.  If anyone reads this, i hope you are doing well and wish you the best in your healing journey off the poison.

[bunchesofoats]

Hey @methuselah, seeing here that you recently had a breakup and moved. For me, these would be major life events that would cause me to hold. Take it easy on yourself, and wait until life stabilizes before lowering dosage. If there is any variation in your daily dose, hopefully some of the suggestions I left in my response to you on my thread help with consistency.

[methuselah]

Hey @bunchesofoatsthanks so much for stopping by!  I appreciate your input and ya, the move was hard, but particularly the breakup has been brutal.  Therapist says abandonment wounds reopened and some codependency detox happening.  I’m sure he’s right, but I also do just miss her so there’s that non-clinical aspect to it.  
 

but yes, to your point, I’m holding.  I’ve committed to 3 months (ending in mid March) but maybe I should do longer.   Guess I’ll see how I feel then. I figured with the sloth like slowness of my taper it would be easier but I guess this drug really has its hooks in me good.  Stress hasn’t helped either obv.  Should have gone off in 2015-2016 instead of chasing the dragon as it were.  
 

I replied in your thread as well, I think my wd brain misread your post, whoops!  Thanks again 

[bunchesofoats]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:03 PM, methuselah said:

I’ve committed to 3 months

 

In my experience, you can't really predict these things. I think committing to at least 3 months is a good way to ensure you don't jump back to tapering before you're ready, but be aware 3 months might not be enough. For me, a major breakup and a move would throw me around good.

 

Keep observing how you feel and posting your progress.

[methuselah]

@bunchesofoats that’s solid advice and I really appreciate it. I’ve had a very difficult time with the breakup, the move was local so not too bad.  
 

On top of regular emotions, significant neuro stuff too like a lot of guilt and heavy sadness.  Racing thoughts and intrusive thoughts about the situation have plagued me pretty bad.  Sleep has gone haywire.  I really do feel pretty consistently horrible.  Evenings are generally better with mornings being the worst.  
 

to your point tho, I Will hold longer if need be, I just wish it would let up a bit bc it hasn’t been.

[bunchesofoats]

Hey methuselah, how is your sleep this week?

[methuselah]

Hi @bunchesofoatsthanks for checking in

 

sleep has improved quite a bit.  Unfortunately the insomnia has been replaced with some strong DR/DP and some anxiety.  I’m still going to hold for awhile even tho it doesn’t feel like it’s making any difference sometimes
 

how are you?

[bunchesofoats]

So glad you're sleep has improved.

 

It's easy to think holding is doing nothing, but it absolutely does. It gives your body a chance to adapt.

 

Do you do any deep stretching? 20 min of this yoga pose helped me tremendously at my worst: 

 

 

[methuselah]

@bunchesofoatsindeed sometimes holding feels like it’s doing little to nothing.  It will be 3 months since last drop on March 1.  I’m stable’ish I guess with sleep coming back to some normalcy, which is great!, but the anxiety can be intense, intrusive type obsessive ruminating, as well as the DP/DR.  This will sound weird bc it is, but earlier I sort of recognized I was looking out thru my eyeballs into the world and my brain couldn’t quite register that for a few moments.  It’s honestly like smoking too much dope.  Another time I got sorta dizzy and my brain somehow twisted that into some strange view of the being surrounded by the universe and like zooming out into space then zooming in unto myself.  It was quick, but so weird. Things like that happen often these days, It’s wild.  As Shep said in her story, “people pay good money for this sorta thing” so I try to roll with it…

 

Is that withdrawal or the drug, who knows.  It’s one or the other bc it is definitely not my default setting haha

 

thanks for the video, I’ll check it out. 

[bunchesofoats]

I complete resonate with what you said - the things I've experienced on this medication are definitely not my default setting and are not part of anything else I've ever experienced, especially since I was never interested in recreational drugs.

 

Your symptoms do sound like withdrawal, but I obviously can't say for sure. What you're describing sounds like the brain fog, extreme anxiety, obsessive ruminating, and dizziness that frequently accompany withdrawal.

 

When I was in my worst waves, it helped reading others detailed experiences, especially if they were under success stories, to know I was not the only one who experiences these bizarre symptoms and that they're not forever. There's a lot of wisdom in those stories. Here's one:

 

[methuselah]

@bunchesofoats thanks.  ya, could be as you say and "just" withdrawal.  My gut is that it's a combo of the drug and wd but my gut could very well be wrong.

 

That success story is horrifying, jesus christ!  Yes, it's a testament to that person's god level grit and strength and iron will, but wow, that's a tough one to read.  If any of these drugs should be illegal, Paxil should be the first to go.  Just wow.