kate1385

[kate1385]

@Jools44I know that feeling very well - I too wish I’d not gone to the doctor 10 years ago and had instead used other techniques such as meditation, therapy, diet, exercise etc. 

But we didn’t know then what we know now. It’s been a hard lesson but one that will make us kinder and wiser.

 

 

 We went to the doctors 10 years ago because we valued our well-being and wanted to get better. It’s not our fault or responsibility that we have suffered as a result.
These words are for us both as it’s so easy to slip into self blame and shame.  

 

Good idea on holding until you’re feeling well again. There’s no point in rushing this process and having to repeatedly go backwards. I really hope you recover soon. 
 

Hugs. 

 

[kate1385]

Hi all,

 

It’s been a couple of months since I posted..

 

I started 10mg Citalopram at the end of January this year after 6 months without it. The withdrawal effects slowly crept up on me and I crashed at the end of last year. I hadn’t yet found this site and once I had, concluded I’d gone about tapering all wrong. I wanted to start over (and feel better).
 

It’s not been a smooth ride since I started it again! In some respects I feel better but in other ways I feel worse. I am not AS emotional but still have crying spells. I am better able to function (I think) but I feel less motivation and empathy and more apathetic, withndrawn and numb. 

I am regretting the decision to go back on it but I did it because I was in a bad way and my parents and therapist encouraged me. I’m living with my parents and was feeling guilty for them having to live with the misery of my withdrawal (AGAIN - this was the 3rd attempt).

 

It’s been exactly 10 weeks since I started it again and I’m wondering if it’s too late to just stop? Or can I cut the dose in half to 5mg? Or should I start a 10% taper? Or maybe I need to not make any changes for a while.

My nervous system is clearly not stable and I’m still waking up with anxiety every morning and having lots of bad days.

 

My biggest concern is the apathy and lack of empathy I’m feeling and it’s really getting me down. At least before I started it again I had the motivation to do things that were good for me like message and make plans with friends, talk to people on here, meditate, get outside for walks etc. 

 

Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks 🙏🏼

 

[getofflex]

It's very important for you to stop tapering down too fast, then jumping back on the drugs at these significant doses.  This is a recipe for further destabilizing your nervous system and kindling yourself, and it can take months to years to recover from things like this.  Please go back to my original post to you, and carefully read, or re-read, "Keep it Simple, Slow, and Stable", "How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain", and "Video on Recovery from Psych Drugs", and "What is Happening in Your Brain".  These drugs are extremely powerful and affect our nervous systems in profound ways, and need to be treated with great caution.  

 

5 hours ago, kate1385 said:

It’s been exactly 10 weeks since I started it again and I’m wondering if it’s too late to just stop? Or can I cut the dose in half to 5mg? Or should I start a 10% taper?

Yes, it is too late to quit cold turkey.  Please do not cut the dose in half to 5 mg.   After just 4 weeks, your brain has become dependent on the drug.  It needs to be tapered at the 10% exponential rate.  Please reread my post "Why Taper 10%" in my original post.  But first, wait until you are stable to do any more drug changes.  

 

How do you feel before and after you take your mirtazapine, and before and after you take your citalopram?  It would be beneficial if you would keep a daily drug and symptom journal, to see if you are having adverse reactions to either of your drugs.  Please post them here in your intro topic.  Pay especially close attention to specific symptoms you have before you take the drugs, and after you take the drugs.  Here is an example: 

 

 

6 AM woke with anxiety

8 am took 2.5 mg lexapro

10 am stomach is upset

10:30 am ate breakfast

11:35 am got a headache, lasted one hour

12:35 ate lunch

4 pm feel a bit better

5 pm took 2.5 mg lexapro

6 pm ate dinner

9:20 pm headache 

10:00 pm took 50 mg Seroquel

10:30 pm feeling dizzy

10:30 pm fell asleep 

2:30 am woke, took 3 mg Ambien

2:45 am fell asleep

4:30 am woke, but got back to sleep 

 

Please keep us posted how you are doing.  

 

 

 

 

[getofflex]

There is a major drug interaction between your 2 drugs, according to drugs.com.  Are you having any symptoms of serotonin syndrome as described below?

Interactions between your drugs

Major

mirtazapine  citalopram

Applies to: mirtazapine, citalopram

Using citalopram together with mirtazapine can increase the risk of a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Severe cases may result in coma and even death. You should contact your doctor immediately if you experience these symptoms during treatment. In addition, combining these medications can increase the risk of an irregular heart rhythm that may be serious and potentially life-threatening, although it is a relatively rare side effect. You may be more susceptible if you have a heart condition called congenital long QT syndrome, other cardiac diseases, conduction abnormalities, or electrolyte disturbances (for example, magnesium or potassium loss due to severe or prolonged diarrhea or vomiting). Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. Your doctor may already be aware of the risks, but has determined that this is the best course of treatment for you and has taken appropriate precautions and is monitoring you closely for any potential complications. You should seek immediate medical attention if you develop sudden dizziness, lightheadedness, fainting, shortness of breath, or heart palpitations during treatment with these medications, whether together or alone. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by getofflex

[kate1385]

Hi @getofflex

 

Thank you for your response. I knew that the answer would probably be to do nothing until I’m completely stabilised, so I won’t.

 

Unfortunately I didn’t find this site until

I was already in trouble with the third withdrawal. My GP assured me that it’s safe to go on and off these drugs but of course now I don’t trust him at all. 

I realise I should not have restarted the citalopram 10 weeks ago but now I know I must be patient rather than try and come off it again. 
 

Thanks for the info about the citalopram & mirtazapine interaction. I will keep an eye on symptoms and let you know how I get on. 
 

 

[Bestill]

@kate1385 Do you feel better now than 10 weeks ago?  I definitely wouldn’t cut half your dose.  However, You know your body best.  What would happen if you started to taper say 2% (when you feel ready) and see how you feel.

 

To bring you some positivity, know that the lack of motivation will pass as your body gets acclimated to having less medication in your system.  However,  I am not the pro here for giving advice.  But ask yourself if you have felt somewhat more stable.

 

i also found Mirtazapine gave me all the things you are feeling.  As I keep cutting I find myself returning to more normalcy even though there have been ups and downs. 
 

Never regret the decisions made either.  You needed to find relief.  Just make sure you give your body the break it needs before you dive into any changes.
 

hugs ❤️
 

bestill

[kate1385]

@Bestillthank you for your kind and comforting words ❤️
 

I have been struggling a lot with regret; regretting all my decisions to do with taking these medications!

It doesn’t change things and only adds to the suffering so am trying hard to shift my perspective.

 

I think overall I feel slightly better and more stable having gone back on 10mg citalopram although it was rough at first. However, I do miss the windows I was having before where I felt connected, empathetic and like my old self again. These seem to have dulled down considerably since restarting. 
 

I would like to start reducing again (using the 10% guidelines) but I think I need to wait a while until I’m feeling more stable, not going to put a time frame on things but hopefully soon!

 

How are you getting on with your Mirt taper? Good to hear that you’re experiencing patches of normalcy - hope they continue to get longer 😊

 

 

 

[Bestill]

@kate1385 You will know when it’s time. The fact that things have calmed down a bit is something you probably needed.  Nothing to regret about that.  You know it isn’t forever and in time this will all be a distant memory.  As I get lower, I find I am complaining less about how I feel.  A few bumps here and there.

 

my taper is going.  Some days it’s great and some days it isn’t so great but with each month, there is much improvement.  I am not tied down to the couch. I think doing the smaller cuts is working best.  I do about 5% cuts in two week spurts. One week 3% and the other 2%z. I hold for 2 weeks and if all is well, cut again.  When i get to 7.5 I’m thinking of holding for a month.  I really have no idea to be honest.  It really just depends on which way the wind is blowing.  I keep things simple, really can’t keep a schedule.  Week by week.

 

when it is time for your taper, your support is here!  🫶🏻
 

bestill

[kate1385]

@BestillGlad to hear that each month is an improvement on the last. Sounds like things are going in the right direction. It sounds like your small cuts and hold are working well. 

Are you making a liquid? I keep reading the instructions for making a liquid and just can’t seem to make sense of it, it sounds extremely confusing and difficult but perhaps that’s because I’m not well enough to understand yet.

 

I invested in the Gemini scales and did some preliminary weighing and calculations for when I’m ready to start tapering the 10mg Citalopram but was disheartened to find out that they’re not accurate enough to go much lower than what I’m currently taking. I’m going to have to work out how to do the liquid but the thought of that terrifies and overwhelms me! It sounds like something out of Breaking Bad and seems really unreliable and amateur!

 

I’d be interested to hear your experience with that if you don’t mind sharing.

 

Spring is here now in the UK so that makes a lot of difference ❤️

 

 

 

[Bestill]

@kate1385

 

i don’t use a liquid.  I probably won’t.  I can understand how confusing it can be and I just don’t want to take the time to cross over.  I use a scale and a nail file and it works just fine.  I’m a little confused on how you can go much lower with the tapering.  Is it because the pill is so small?

 

Spring is upon us as well. I am from the United States!  It was so nice working in the yard yesterday with sunshine and 60 degree weather.

[kate1385]

@Bestilloh I see!
 

In that case can I ask what scales you’re using? I bought the Gemini scales recommended on this site but when I got them out and started weighing my pills and making calculations based on tiny % cuts, I worked out that the measurements would not be accurate enough when getting down to lower doses. Perhaps I’m wrong. 

I did some gardening yesterday too! Where about in the States are you? I have family in California and Colorado

 

[Bestill]

@kate1385

I am from Michigan.

 

i will have to get the 7.5 mg pill and then workout the calculations.  Not worrying about it now and I can eye ball if I have to.

 

I got it from here https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B011J88S8M?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

 

i actually talked to my pharmacist today and was curious on his advice in tapering.  He told me 25% every week.  I told him he was crazy and I went into major withdrawals cutting 16%.  They really just don’t know.  It’s what they have been taught.  And it does work for some.  Oh well.

 

bestill

[Altostrata]

Why did you add citalopram to mirtazapine? How has your symptom pattern changed since you did this?

[kate1385]

Hi @Altostrata

 

I added 10mg of Citalopram because I reasoned that was the drug my brain was missing and therefore the reason I was suffering so much. 

 

The prospect of being in so much pain and not being able to function for perhaps years to come was too much to bare.
I thought by reinstating at a small dose I may be able to gain some stability and then once recovered, begin a slow and safe taper.

Despite the unpleasant side effects of feeling withdrawn, numb and flat, I am getting more stable and able to function better so the plan does seem to be working.

 

 

[Altostrata]

We know that reinstatement of the drug often will reduce withdrawal symptoms, but we've seen here that a far lower dose can do this effectively without the common antidepressant adverse effects of feeling withdrawn, numb and flat.

[kate1385]

@Altostrata

 

Yes, I wish these drugs came manufactured in lower doses. 10mg is the smallest pill size available in Citalopram.
I didn’t have any scales to weigh out a lower dose at the point of reinstating and could not get my head around making a liquid. I had a pill cutter but did not trust the accuracy and didn’t want to be inadvertently taking different amounts each day and throwing my CNS off even more.

It was a tough call to reinstate at 10mg but seeing as I’d been on 30mg for practically a decade I thought 10mg might be a relatively mild dose!
Turns out no so much 😏

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

17 minutes ago, kate1385 said:

10mg is the smallest pill size available in Citalopram.

 

You can make your own liquid.  See Post #1 of this topic which explains how to get non-standard doses:

 

Tips for tapering off citalopram (Celexa)

 

how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules

[kate1385]

Thank you @ChessieCat

Every time I felt well enough to sit down to try and work out how to make a liquid I got extremely stressed and upset. I couldn’t get my head round how to do it. It would put me right back into a wave!

 

I am going to approach it again when I’ve stabilised but in the throws of withdrawal my brain would not cooperate  

[ChessieCat]

cross-over-changing-form-eg-tablet-to-liquid-of-drug-or-changing-brand-of-same-drug

 

[kate1385]

@ChessieCatthank you for the link. That’s most helpful for when I make the transition to liquid.

[getofflex]

@kate1385it sounds as if you are stabilizing well on your current drug regimen.  Please do not change it for a while - hold on this for at least several months and give your nervous system a break.  It needs a break in order to fully establish equilibrium and homeostasis.  Please carefully read this link: 

 

Keep it Simple, Slow, and Stable

[kate1385]

@getofflexthank you. 

Yes I do seem to be getting increasingly more stable. 
The crying spells and early waking with anxiety have eased up a lot this past week. I am feeling closer to normal than I have in months. 

I will certainly not make any changes for the foreseeable future. I want the next attempt at getting off these drugs to be the final one! 

 

[kate1385]

Hello everyone, 

 

It's been a while, I hope this finds you as well as can be depending on your individual circumstances

 

Just wanted to share a poem I came across today that some of you may already be familiar with. I think it's beautiful.. 

 

After a while
by Veronica A. Shoffstall

 

After a while you learn 
the subtle difference between 
holding a hand and chaining a soul 
and you learn 
that love doesn’t mean leaning 
and company doesn’t always mean security. 
And you begin to learn 
that kisses aren’t contracts 
and presents aren’t promises 
and you begin to accept your defeats 
with your head up and your eyes ahead 
with the grace of woman, not the grief of a child 
and you learn 
to build all your roads on today 
because tomorrow’s ground is 
too uncertain for plans 
and futures have a way of falling down 
in mid-flight. 
After a while you learn 
that even sunshine burns 
if you get too much 
so you plant your own garden 
and decorate your own soul 
instead of waiting for someone 
to bring you flowers. 
And you learn that you really can endure 
you really are strong 
you really do have worth 
and you learn 
and you learn 
with every goodbye, you learn… 

 

[Ariel]

@kate1385

Thank you for sharing this poem. It's made my day better. 

 

Are you familiar with the thread Meaning through poetry?

There are some beautiful poems there, too. 

 

Respect for your patience doing a long hold to stabilize. 

That's not easy, I hope you give yourself lots of credit.

 

Best of luck to you on your continuous healing journey,

A.

[kate1385]

Hi @Ariel

 

Thanks for stopping by and I'm glad that by sharing that poem I made your day a little better

 

I did not know about the Meaning through poetry thread! I'm so grateful that you mentioned it (in my pre-drugged days I liked to write poetry) and am now going to spend some time having a look.

 

Thank you, no it's not been easy and the temptation to make changes have at times been very strong.

I envy those already 'free'! 

 

I've also just read your intro and wow, you're a hero (and a witty one too!)

I hope that you are continuing to see overall improvements and that your day 'X' is ever closer. 

 

Hugs