54fiftyfour: trazodone WD

[54fiftyfour]

Many thanks, Catina. I will read.

 

Any advice from @LotusRising or other members about the rest of my update? It's almost two years that I'm suffering so much without any window and I can't explain why I'm only getting worse.

[54fiftyfour]

@Emonda and @FireflyFyte, any advice? Please, I need help.

[Hibari]

@54fiftyfour

 

Hi,

 

I'm responding to your PM here.

 

I am sorry you are in such a state of pain and fear right now. I understand that mindset having gone through a tough time during my own Clonzapam withdrawal. 

 

Benzos cause depression. I know that because I don't have it now that I am off of it.

 

I know you are seeking answers and I hear how fearful you are about your symptoms. That's what benzo withdrawal does. It does not allow hope and causes rumination about how bad things are. Not your fault, its what the medication does to the brain. 

 

As I got to the lower doses I had muscle and nerve pain. Since I didn't have it before tapering benzos, I knew it was the medication.  I used a cream called Duoflex (combination of magnesium and other natural ingredients, arnica ointment, a heating pad and ice packs. Those helped me get to the finish line. 
 

Getting off Clonzapam is a courageous and tedious journey. Sometimes there is just no relief even when you hold. It is one of those medications that has a strong grip. 

 

I wanted someone to give me the answer to relieve my pain. But there is no definitive answer. All you can do is hang on, taper when you can, and know that the pain will end when you get off. 

 

I have encouraged you to post on BenzoBuddies and also to consider working with a benzo coach. If you want some names of coaches, let me know and I will send you a message. 

 

There is also a Zoom support group called BenzoHope that meets on Saturday afternoon and Sunday nights in the US. They have members from all over the world. https://www.meetup.com/benzo-hope/

 

Tapering a benzo is very difficult but it can be done. Thousands of people have gotten off and you can too. 

 

Hibari 

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you, @Hibari.

 

How much do you mean for "lower doses"? I ask it becouse I already have painful muscle symptoms and spams.

 

If I understand well, your taper was not been so strongly conditioned by anxiety, terror and akathisia (as mine), but overall depression and fatigue. You wrote me that the more you taper, the better you felt with depression. It's not the same for me. I am at 0,2730 mg. now (from 0,7 mg.) and do not have any improvement, only worsening. I can taper at very little doses per day (0,0001 or 0,0002) and this is very frustrating. The more I take the drug, the more is cognitive decine, weakness, nerves pain, sexual dysfunctions and so on. How can I resist for long?

[LotusRising]

@54fiftyfour

 

I can only echo what Hibari has said above.

 

Tapering a benzo is indeed the most difficult journey I've ever endured and I'm still not in a place where I'm completely free of symptoms. However, the intensity of my symptoms has lessened considerably with time, including the extreme nerve pain. 

 

I know it's hard to believe, but the symptoms will eventually go. Have you ever listened to any of Baylissa's meditations?

 

Baylissa Evening Meditation

 

Hibari has also given you some very good recommendations. 

 

As difficult as it is, you need to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[Hibari]

15 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Thank you, @Hibari.

 

How much do you mean for "lower doses"? I ask it becouse I already have painful muscle symptoms and spams.

 

If I understand well, your taper was not been so strongly conditioned by anxiety, terror and akathisia (as mine), but overall depression and fatigue. You wrote me that the more you taper, the better you felt with depression. It's not the same for me. I am at 0,2730 mg. now (from 0,7 mg.) and do not have any improvement, only worsening. I can taper at very little doses per day (0,0001 or 0,0002) and this is very frustrating. The more I take the drug, the more is cognitive decine, weakness, nerves pain, sexual dysfunctions and so on. How can I resist for long?

I started getting muscle pains and body aches when I reached about 0.30mgs 

 

Yes, my mains symptoms were deep depression and fatigue. I did have periods of anxiety but they were short. 

 

Many people do not have improvement when they get lower. Again, doesn't mean that you are doing something wrong. We are all different in how we respond. My depression did not lift till I was at 

0.21 but again, that was my experience. 

 

I only did 0.1 every other day and always held when the symptoms caught up. Sometimes 4 days, sometimes 7 days. When I felt strong enough, I started tapering. When I say strong, it did not mean I felt good. It only meant that I could handle the pain of withdrawal better. 

 

You may need to spread out your cuts more to give your nervous system a break. 

 

There is a part of you inside, that wants to get off of this benzo and that is what will help you resist. That doesn't make it easier nor does it take a way the pain but it means you have the strength to keep going on your journey. 

 

Hibari

[54fiftyfour]

@Hibari,

 

0,1 mg. every other day? Would you mean 0,01 or 0,001?

[Hibari]

Yes 0.01 mg.  I'm not good at math. 

 

I shaved my pills using a nail file and then weighed them on a scale, so I believe that's right. 

 

If my 0.5mg Clonazapam pill weighed 200 grams on the scale, my cut would be to 199 grams and then 198 grams, etc. 

[54fiftyfour]

On 2/2/2024 at 17:24, Hibari said:

Ti ho incoraggiato a pubblicare post su BenzoBuddies

 

@Hibari,

 

I published my posts on BenzoBuddies when you encouraged me to do it. I received a lot of moral support and some advice, not so different respect the ones I obtain here on SA. Someone advised me to take a little bit of clonazepam in the morning again (I was on 0,2 mg. at the beginning) to "cover" the daily symptoms, but after having worked so hard to eliminate the morning dose, I don't want to reintroduce it. I don't know how much it would help. At the same time, however, I can't deny that I suffer excessively during the day. I believe I will never reach a baseline, even if I maintain the same dosage for a long time.

 

@LotusRising and @Hibari,

 

What devastates me the most are the strong anxiety and creeping akathisia, in addition to the bouts of depression and despair. The pudendal nerve damage is unbearable, too. I think that, may be, depression can get down during the taper, but anxiety and akathisia does not and can only increase. That's the big problem, for me. Don't you agree?

[Hibari]

4 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

 

@Hibari,

 

I published my posts on BenzoBuddies when you encouraged me to do it. I received a lot of moral support and some advice, not so different respect the ones I obtain here on SA. Someone advised me to take a little bit of clonazepam in the morning again (I was on 0,2 mg. at the beginning) to "cover" the daily symptoms, but after having worked so hard to eliminate the morning dose, I don't want to reintroduce it. I don't know how much it would help. At the same time, however, I can't deny that I suffer excessively during the day. I believe I will never reach a baseline, even if I maintain the same dosage for a long time.

 

@LotusRising and @Hibari,

 

What devastates me the most are the strong anxiety and creeping akathisia, in addition to the bouts of depression and despair. The pudendal nerve damage is unbearable, too. I think that, may be, depression can get down during the taper, but anxiety and akathisia does not and can only increase. That's the big problem, for me. Don't you agree?

Hi @54fiftyfour

 

Yes, the moral support from SA and BenzoBuddies is what you can hold onto during benzo withdrawal.

 

During all of my tapers, since there was no physical solution to the pain, I had to hold onto the support of other people, mainly the members of these sites. 

 

I know you have probably written out your current tapering schedule before but I thought I read in one of your posts that you are cutting 0.01 or 0.02 daily? Is that correct? 

 

Since my main symptom was medication induced depression, I can't answer your question about akathisia and anxiety increasing as you go lower. 

 

There is a benzo coach named Chris Paige who stopped benzos cold turkey and had akathisia for 2 years. That was a response to the medication being taken away too quickly. He has recovered from the experience. He may he able to offer you the rreassurance and information you need regarding akathisia.

 https://www.chrispaigelcsw.com/

 

Hibari 

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you, Hibari.

 

I would be very happy if I could taper 0,01 mg./day. Unfortunately this quantities are too high for me. I'm currently tapering 0,0001 or 0,0002 mg./day, but I anyway feel very, very ill.

 

@LotusRising wrote me that he had akathisia, too, but I read his signature and it seems he was able to go at a much faster speed than me in his taper.

 

I could contact the coach, but I live in Italy and don't know how he can help me online with EMDR or hypnosis, as he claims on his website.

[LotusRising]

5 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

but anxiety and akathisia does not and can only increase

I don't think this is true for everyone and I would try not to project what may or may not happen in your taper. My akathisia occurred right at the beginning, and was very short-lived. I have not had any recurrences, thankfully, except for some passing anxiety.

 

27 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

wrote me that he had akathisia, too, but I read his signature and it seems he was able to go at a much faster speed than me in his taper.

I'm female btw. But yes, I went a lot faster. I don't recommend doing what I did. I was extremely unwell and mistook my WD symptoms as paradoxical reactions, so I sped through. By the time I realized they were in fact just withdrawal, I believed I was too far into my taper to slow down and I just wanted off. It's been a long road to recovery for me to get functional.

 

33 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

online with EMDR or hypnosis, as he claims on his website

I have heard of other therapists doing this online, so it may be worth looking into.

[54fiftyfour]

@LotusRising,

 

you are a woman, I'm sorry for my misunderstanding.

 

I'm not projecting what may happen in my taper. I'm already living every day the horror of akathisia, terror and anxiety, other than the rest of physical and neurological symptoms. You had only passing anxiety, I have it all the days. Unfortunately for me, this is a big difference.

 

May be I'm going too fast, considering my level of dysregulation, but clonazepam makes me feel terrbly depressed and emotionally flat.

 

What do you mean with "it's been a long road to recovery". After or during taper? If after, how much time did you need to get functional again?

 

 

 

[LotusRising]

17 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

you are a woman, I'm sorry for my misunderstanding.

No worries whatsoever.

 

18 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I'm not projecting what may happen in my taper. I'm already living every day the horror of akathisia, terror and anxiety, other than the rest of physical and neurological symptoms. You had only passing anxiety, I have it all the days. Unfortunately for me, this is a big difference.

I feel it's not helpful to compare stories, since it likely doesn't help, nor does it improve the situation and can actually serve to minimize others' experiences. 

 

20 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

What do you mean with "it's been a long road to recovery".

What I mean is that my tapering experience (symptoms) felt severe to me and at the time, I didn't expect or believe I would get better. I improved gradually near the end of my taper and this pattern continues. 

[Hibari]

@54fiftyfour

 

@LotusRising is correct.  Many practitioners are able to offer EMDR and trauma techniques virtually. Since the pandemic, lots of health practitioners and coaches are working virtually. You can always check with Chris to see what he does. 

 

Here is the name of another coach who has been mentioned in the benzo communities for his work. 

Dan Landauer 

https://www.philosophicalfishing.com/

 

You may be cutting too frequently and not allowing your brain to catch up to the cuts. Believe me I know the depression and despair that Clonzapam causes and I hated holding when the cuts caught up.

 

But I had to let my brain adjust to the fact that there was less medication. When I held, I did not feel good but usually at the end of the time I held, I was able to start again. I did not feel good when I started cutting again but I felt less bad than when the cuts caught up.

 

I understand how horrible you feel and benzos create such fear and panic-not your fault. So many of us felt the terror you are feeling even if our symptoms vary. 

 

People do get off of benzos and go on to live life again. LotusRising has, I have and hundreds of people on BenzoBuddies have too. We all suffered greatly in different ways but we have recovered. 

 

You can too. 

 

Hibari 

 

[54fiftyfour]

@LotusRising and @Hibari,

 

Sorry again: I didn't want at all to minimize the others' experiences, but only to get in evidence the different clinic situations and symptoms. I mean that my akathisia and strong anxiety can furtherly complicate my taper, togheter with the other symptoms (depression, muscle pain, derealization, etc.).   

[Hibari]

5 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

@LotusRising and @Hibari,

 

Sorry again: I didn't want at all to minimize the others' experiences, but only to get in evidence the different clinic situations and symptoms. I mean that my akathisia and strong anxiety can furtherly complicate my taper, togheter with the other symptoms (depression, muscle pain, derealization, etc.).   

@54fiftyfour

 

I don't feel you were minimizing my experience. I understand that you are trying to figure things out. 

 

We all are different and our symptoms vary but what we do share is the pain of this journey. 

 

I can only continue to share with you that I've known other people who went through incredibly difficult tapers and they recovered. Some of them had the symptoms you describe and they not only got off but healed. 

 

Hibari 

[54fiftyfour]

@Hibari,

 

one of my bigger problem (as for everyone, I suppose), is time. I'm 55 years old now and I can't imagine that I need the next seven years to slowly taper the drug with all this sufference and then another long period for recovering a minimal condition of health, while the others' lives are going ahed.

[Hibari]

@54fiftyfour

 

I understand and had the same thoughts myself. I used to look out my window and see everybody out in the world living their lives and it crushed my spirit.

 

I am now one of those people living my life. 

 

I don't know how long your timeline will be but can only say that my despair over the length of my tapers lifted when the Clonazapam loosened its grip on my mind. 

 

Try not to judge, while you are still in withdrawal, how things will be in the future. It's hard with the medication, but the medication is not telling the truth. 

 

Hibari  

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

Just an update.

 

I'm continuing my taper in a situation of completely dysregulation. My symptoms are more and more unbearable. In general, akathisia, weakness and strong depression/anhedonia for all the day. Holding for months don't help.

 

I feel clearly that clonazepam is killing me, even if I hold, as recently, for two months. I am really sure to be damaged forever. The problem is that I understand that continuing to take this drug can not help anything, but only worsening my situation. For example, cognitive and sexual problems, flatness, weakness and muscle pain and spasms are increasing a lot, leaving me in a suicidal state.

 

At the same time, I feel that it's not possible tapering this drug with success, becouse the symptoms are unmanageable. My life is destroyed and I'm really desperate.

[Catina7]

I'm sorry you're still having such a difficult time.  Please don't lose hope that one day you will heal from all this.  May I suggest you listen to some of Baylissa Frederick's videos?  She went through severe withdrawal from benzos and has healed.  She is so comforting to listen to.  I hope something she says will resonate with you.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/@BaylissaFrederick

[54fiftyfour]

Hi Catina,

 

the problem is that my dysregulation doesn't come only from clonazepam taper, but also from the past use of finasteride and cold-turkey cessation of antidepressants. Before this last crash my nervous system was undoubtely better, but already damaged anyway. Now it's completely crashed and unable to recover. I've been very stupid to take trazodone in 2022 for my nocturnal tremors. My life was not perfect, but absolutely accettable and full of sense and activities. Now I'm in a permanent daily hell.

[54fiftyfour]

I think to have all my serotonin receptors turned off throughout the body. I'm a very slow metabolizer and remain in a current state of sufference.

 

Besides clonazepam is devastating all my GABA receptors and, in the past, I was diagnosed with a lack of activity of an enzyme in the CNS (brain liquor), becouse of finasteride use. This enzyme (5-alpha-reductase) is essential to convert three crucial hormones/neurosteroids for the mental and neurological health. I'm without any hope.

[54fiftyfour]

Depression has become absolutely unmanageable. Continuing to take and taper clonazepam is enhancing this problem at a very high level. Please, I need help becouse I'm suffering too much and I'm very, very close to suicide. Could it make sense to try one only drop of fluoxetine or other antidepressants? What do people do when depression is out of any possibility of control?

[54fiftyfour]

Is there some moderator, admimistrator or someone else who can answer me? Please, @LotusRising, @Hibari, do you know someone who couldn't manage depression symptoms and found a temporary help with a low dose of some drug? I wouldn't take anything, but clonazepam taper is literally killing me.

[LotusRising]

1 hour ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Depression has become absolutely unmanageable. Continuing to take and taper clonazepam is enhancing this problem at a very high level. Please, I need help becouse I'm suffering too much and I'm very, very close to suicide. Could it make sense to try one only drop of fluoxetine or other antidepressants? What do people do when depression is out of any possibility of control?

I'm really sorry the depression is so severe right now. I did struggle with this at various points in my taper so I can relate to heaviness of it. Is there someone you can reach out to in real-life when it gets bad? I really had to remind myself on a very consistent basis that it would get better, and it DID get better. I can't in good faith recommend another drug, since I know how terribly difficult it can be for people to come off these as well. Plus, we know that they don't always work, and in some cases, can make things much worse. If you feel like it is very severe, I would suggest you speak to your doctor, but I would encourage you to keep going. 

 

Is there something you can do to change the channel in your thoughts? Get out for a short walk, sit outside, listen to some motivational meditations (Baylissa has some great ones) ...

 

 

[Hibari]

@54fiftyfour

 

I too am sorry the depression is so bad right now. I understand how you feel because I had those feelings too during my setback. Benzo withdrawal is grueling on so many levels. 

 

I agree with @LotusRising. It's very hard for those of us who have been pollydrugged to recommend taking another psychiatric medication. But I cannot make that decision for you. I can only say any medication you consider taking should be taken at the lowest dose possible. Again, I'm not making the suggestion for you take an additional medication but to remind you that your system is very sensitized. 

 

Another member on this site was tapering a benzo and had a dosing error. They went through a very rough time and ended up having to updose because they were so sick and couldn't stabilize. They also ended up adding another med, which they now regret. But they had to do what they needed to do to survive and keep themselves alive. They have now started tapering their benzo again because they feel strong enough to do it. 

 

I have recommended some benzo support resources to you in the past because during scary times, an online withdrawal site, in my opinion, just isn't enough. You deserve consistent support to help you during this scary time. That's what helps us get though.

 

Those resources are:

Benzo Hope Zoom Support Groups

Angela Peacock Zoom Support Groups

Benzo Warriors FB Group (They have Zoom Support Groups with speakers). 

Psych-K (Psychological Kinesiology). 

 

Many, many people have horrific benzo withdrawal symptoms and heal.  

 

Hibari 

[54fiftyfour]

@LotusRising,

 

I talk with several persons who are close to me, but the symptom of strong depression is always present and doesn't leave me never alone. It's so strong that I think it seems a sort of living coma, an interruption of my neural circuits, a zombie state. Clonazepam make me feel depressed and anhedonic since the first day, but proceeding with my taper aggravated the intensity instead of attenuate it.

 

I get out every day for working with a terrible fatigue and very low productivity. When I can, I forced myself to go out with friends for a walk or a dinner, but my state of sufference doesn't change and, sometime, it increases. For example, my anxiety, panic and depression enhance when I see the sun and happy people and I remember when I could feel the same emotions that now are nomore inside me. This is very terrible for me and makes me suicidal.

[54fiftyfour]

@Hibari,

 

you're right: my nervous system is extremely sensitized. In this moment (but I would say every day), I can't breath and have a lot of "electric" sensations and palpitations.

 

Do you know why I'm without hope? Becouse it's the second time I fall in a kindling and depressive state. If you read my story, I had the first crash after using finasteride for hairloss and several antidepressants to try to cure my symptoms. This permanently damaged my mind and body, even if I had a lot of benefits from a therapy of testosterone injections for six weeks. It was 2009. This therapy reset a part of my epigenetic brain damage and reactivated several neurons, allowing me to live an accettable conditions.

 

My nervous damage, however, was below and this was the reason for which, when nocturnal tremors in my neck/head and contractions to my leg's muscle flared up again in 2022, I stupidly decided to listen my med and take low dose of trazodone for 21 days. It was a suicide. I hurted my nervous system more and again. I had so intense symptoms of akathisia, agitation and total insomnia that I was forced to take clonazepam, destroying all my GABA receptor's system beyond the serotoninergic one.

 

I can't imagine, with this premises, to have success in tapering clonazepam and reach again an accettable condition of health. I mean that the problem is not only to taper clonazepam, but also too many damages impossible to recover.

 

Sometime I think to change benzodiazepine, switching to delorazepam, becouse I feel that clonazepam is devastating for my pudendal nerve and sexual function. I'm sure that, in this case, I would have a lot of adverse reactions, but I also suffer from PSSD and, with this problem, it's not good to mess with serotonin system as clonazepam does (it's the only benzo which acts as a serotonin agonist and I can feel it). As you can understand, this mess is not solvable, not even in the long run and, honestly, I realize every day it's too much for my capacity to resist, even if I try to get help from some benzo group. I could try to do it, but the risk, for me, is to be more depressed in spending time with persons who are suffering and can transmit me negative energy. 

[Hibari]

@54fiftyfour

 

I get how fearful you are and how strong your belief is that everything is damaged permanently. I know that belief is strong. As someone who went through several withdrawals, including a cold turkey Lamictal withdrawal at the end of that taper, I too felt the same way. 

 

On top of that, you are in benzo withdrawal, which makes people  believe that their life is over. That way of thinking is not your fault. It has to do with what benzos do to the brain. That changes when the brain heals. 

 

I'm not denying the temporary injury to your nervous system that occured from previous medication. That is why you are sensitized. So many people in this site and others get put on and off of multiple medications causing extra suffering. But people recover from it. 

 

Until you try a support group, you won't know what they offer. Yes, people in those groups are there because they are struggling but they also offer each other hope and encouragement. They are facilitated by people who are now off medication or healed enough to run the groups. They can offer hope because they have recovered. 

 

Your brain is not telling you the truth right now because you are on a medication that robs you of hope. The truth of how your life will be in the future is not available to you right now. But it is waiting for you. 

 

Hibari 

[54fiftyfour]

Thank you,

 

@Hibari.

 

My big problem is the impossibility to taper clonazepam becouse my symptoms are too high. At the same time, I feel that, also if I remain on clonazepam, I will continue to feel strongly symptomatic. I would need to get my mind free from this drug, but I can't proceed as quickly as you did, maybe becouse I'm more sensitized. And the effect on libido and sexual function are terrible to bear. 

[Hibari]

Hi @54fiftyfour,

 

This video discussion with Angela Peacock, who is tapering, coach was sent to me by a holistic psychiatrist.

 

Maybe something to watch to get you through this time. You may not be able to feel the what they describe due to the benzo withdrawal but these are both people who have healed from psychiatric medication injury. 

 

https://youtu.be/YNgYudayhkM?si=Gg_Vdg933xwO4nbd

 

Hibari 

[54fiftyfour]

Hi @Hibari,

 

I'm on 0,2555 mg. of clonazepam now, but my comatose depression and brain fog remain violent. Yesterday I was all the day in my bed, unable to move and wash. I expected a slight improvement at this dose, but I fear I'm one of those people who will suffer these symptoms at the same level for all my taper - as long as I succeed - and also after.

 

Theoretically I should replace clonazepam with another benzo, becouse it is damaging a lot my pudendal nerve. I feel it very clearly every day. It's really frustrating. However, I read everywhere that this drug is very difficult to replace,  expecially in persons with an high level of destabilization, as I am.

 

Anyway, if I were to try a replacement at a lower dosage, which benzo could be better? Valium is so heavy and depressive, too. Many doctors, here in Italy, use delorazepam, another benzo with high half-life. I'm disoriented.

 

Is there somebody in this forum who knows cases of success in replacing clonazepam? @Hibari, @LotusRising or other moderators?

 

I'm so exhaust and desperate, my God!

 

Thank you for your support.

[Hibari]

@54fiftyfour

 

I know this has been so tough for you. 

 

Aside from being in bed yesterday, what have the other days been like for you? I know nothing feels good right now but have there been days that you have been functional?

 

Switching to another benzo is not always easy. Many switch from Xanax or Ativan to Valium because it is longer lasting. But you are right, Valium is heavy and people often experience stronger depression.  

 

I don't know of anyone who has made the switch from Clonzapam, which also causes depression, to another medication except for Valium. 

 

Have you asked this question about switching on BenzoBuddies?

 

I know you feel exhausted by this experience. I did too. I can only keep saying that things got better for me when medication loosened it's grip on my brain. 

 

I ate cleanly, stayed away from alcohol, sugar and caffeine while tapering. I joined free support groups, got a coach and did psych-k work. All of that did not take away the daily pain, but it helped me survive till things got lighter. 

 

Hibari. 

 

 

[LotusRising]

I'm sorry, but I don't know enough about delorazepam to comment. I only know of people crossing over to valium, or sometimes going back to their shorter half-life medication because they felt better on it. I'm not sure the latter would be an option for you though.  

[54fiftyfour]

@Hibari,

 

I suffer too much, it's not human. The problem is not only the strong depression, but also all the rest: akathisia, terror, extreme fatigue, nerves and muscle pain, derealization, breathlessness, sexual impairment, etc. I've also PSSD and PFS, not only BIND. This means that clonazepam, being a serotonin agonist, acts also as an SSRI, protracting my PSSD and giving me the symptoms of abstinence not only on GABA receptors. My brain will not be able to recover anymore and doesn't allow me to finish the taper. I can go to work, but I'm not productive. And I need to be helped from my parents with cooking and other things. I'm not able to enjoy anithing, only surviving at this total and painful mess.