54fiftyfour: trazodone WD

[Hibari]

9 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Hibari,

did you have benefits with 1 mg. to stabilize trazodone WD symptoms? Maybe I could also try, but it can be' too late becouse I stopped it cold turkey in the month of March.

@54fiftyfour

It did benefit me but then every time I took the dose, I would get hyper. 

I lowered it more and then eventually stopped.  

[ChessieCat]

6 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I can not doing healthy distractions as watching tv or listening to music becouse this produces more anxiety and a strong rejection. Anything that remind me of my normal past produces these reactions in my soul.

 

Shep was just providing some examples, not telling you that you have to do these.  It's good that you find walking in nature helpful.  But there will be times when you are not able to do that. 

 

Each us has to find distractions that help us; we are all different and at different times you might find something better than at others.  You might find watching nature videos helpful, or if you take photos (if you don't I suggest you start doing this) when on your walks, you could look at those when you cannot go outside.  Some members find colouring in calming and distracting.

 

Or if you feel that you need to move as part of the distraction, find some pilates or dance videos to exercise along with that you feel comfortable doing.

 

I have a CD that has relaxing music that I have on in the background when I'm doing my pilates and I find it very soothing.

[Shep]

20 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I repeat that I really would have your fortitude and philosophy of life, Shep. Unfortunately I don't have it

 

Fortitude isn't something that you "have," it's something you "create" for yourself.

 

What @ChessieCatwrote is a very good example of how to do that. But it's a process, not an immediate fix. 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

Thanks to both of you.

 

I'm trying to accelerate the taper of clonazepam morning dose. It's too depressing for me.

 

From november, 6 to december, 4 I would like to try to reduce from 0,13 mg. to 0,08 mg. (-38,5%), keeping the night dose unchanged (0,46 mg.). The total reduction would be -6,9% in four weeks.

 

Provided that I will have to listen carefully my symptoms, do you think it could be too dangerous for CNS? 

[Shep]

A 6.9% reduction is a reasonable reduction; however, no one can tell you if it's "too dangerous" as far as your own symptoms go. You'll have to decide based on how you feel. Are you able to handle more upticks in symptoms? If not, than I would hold a bit longer.

 

As mentioned earlier, you could move the morning dose to nighttime so you're not taking a dose during the day and feeling sedated. You would do this gradually, one hour a day. 

[54fiftyfour]

23 hours ago, Shep said:

Are you able to handle more upticks in symptoms? If not, than I would hold a bit longer.

 

No, I would not be able, but I guess I have no choice. I find it hard to stand, move and speak and, day after day, I have reached a pre-suicidal level of depression and derealization. The risk to be admitted in a clinic is very hogh. I feel that clonazepam is mainly responsible for this disaster, even if it is difficult to understand how much my symptoms are also due to trazodone WD. Yesterday a psychiatrist advised me to try to take just 2 mg. of trazodone drops to verify if it helps to stabilize my symptoms, but I'm dubious about the possible bad effects. What do you think?

 

23 hours ago, Shep said:

As mentioned earlier, you could move the morning dose to nighttime so you're not taking a dose during the day and feeling sedated

 

If I do this, I will get to a point where I have to take one dose (0,8 mg.) at 21.00 and the other one (0,46 mg.) at 22.00. Won't two doses so close together cause problems? And wouldn't an increase of nightly dosage from 0,46 mg. to 0,54 mg. too high to be well handled by my destabilized system? I mean, couldn't be a alternative strategy to concentrate in tapering only the morning dose untill it is eliminated? These are just a few questions I ask myself and you too.

[Shep]

Some of your daytime symptoms may be side effects of the daytime benzo. Taking it all at night may help with that. Klonopin has a half-life of 18 - 50 hours, so many people are able to take it only once a day. It depends on how fast you metabolize it. 

 

Reducing the daytime dose can also help with side effects, but if you're also dealing with withdrawal effects, you may find the withdrawal symptoms become worse if you decrease the dose.  

 

[54fiftyfour]

And what about the possibility to reintroduce a small dose of trazodone? Can it badly interacts with clonazepam? 

[Shep]

3 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

And what about the possibility to reintroduce a small dose of trazodone? Can it badly interacts with clonazepam? 

 

You may wish to re-read your thread, as we did discuss this. However, that was back in July when you first joined the forum and were dealing with inconsistent benzo dosing. 

 

The further out you are from being off a drug, the more risky the reinstatement. It's been 8 months since you were last on Trazodone, so a reinstatement at this point would be risky. 

[54fiftyfour]

On 11/18/2022 at 12:04 PM, Shep said:

A 6.9% reduction is a reasonable reduction; however, no one can tell you if it's "too dangerous" as far as your own symptoms go. You'll have to decide based on how you feel. Are you able to handle more upticks in symptoms? If not, than I would hold a bit longer.

 

As mentioned earlier, you could move the morning dose to nighttime so you're not taking a dose during the day and feeling sedated. You would do this gradually, one hour a day. 

 

I think I must stop the tapering process at 0,55 mg. (0,9 mg. in the morning and 0,46 mg. at night), with a reduction of -5,2% in this four weeks (until December, 4). Morning reduction caused me a raise in daily anxiety, distress, palpitations (new symptom, very rare until two weeks ago), weak and shaking legs, agitation, etc. I'm probably demanding too much from my CNS, but each passing day I worry about clonazepam's addiction and side effects.

 

What scares me are the nocturnal symptoms (anxiety, chills, burning sensation in the skin, etc.) that assail me, despite the stability of clonazepam night dose. I don't understand if:

1 - I've reached a tolerance stage of clonazepam;

2 - the consequences of tapering symptoms (especially the morning dose, -18,8% in the last month and -23,1% in this four weeks) are also coming at night and not only during day;

3 - I'm too hypersensitized from trazodone WD and clonazepam's tapering together.

 

Physical decline is also very worrying (lack of strenght and strong loss weight) and, at first sight, appears unrecoverable. Even if I eat, I don't gain weight. Has anyone experienced and recovered from this problem?

 

 

[Shep]

On 11/26/2022 at 5:18 AM, 54fiftyfour said:

Physical decline is also very worrying (lack of strenght and strong loss weight) and, at first sight, appears unrecoverable. Even if I eat, I don't gain weight. Has anyone experienced and recovered from this problem?

 

Please see:

 

Weight gain, weight loss, appetite changes, hunger

 

Changes in weight, including weight loss, are common during withdrawal but people do recover. 

[54fiftyfour]

Recently, Shep advised me not to do too many visits on Internet about the terrible side effects of benzodiazepines. Ok, I remember this. However, in these days I'm reading the information contained on the website Benzo Info Coalition, becouse they seem beliavable.

 

This website claims that clonazepam has the highest incidence of adverse effects in the affected community from benzos. Moreover, it specifies - and this can be very important - that the abstinence symptoms from Klonopin increase with drug's accumulation becouse of the action of its inactive metabolites. Is it true?

 

I write this becouse, after my last taper in these weeks, I perceive a worrying increase of some WD symptoms (tinnitus, trembling on legs, fasciculations, mental confusion, derealization, etc.) and it's not clear to me if this can depend from the consequences of my process of taper or from an already begun process of drug's accumulation after six months. If so, should I continue to reduce even if I feel sick?

 

I really don't know how to deal with this drug, becouse I have always felt ill on it (more depression, suicidal thoughts, paradoxical reactions, etc.), the problems increase if I continue to take it, but it seems, at the same time, that I can feel worse without it.

 

As Altostrada said, it was really better if I hadn't never taken it, but what should I do now? To continue my gradual taper, considering that, in any case, the drug's accumulation will anyway makes me feel worse and worse?

[Shep]

@54fiftyfour Please post links to your research if you're asking for feedback. 

 

[54fiftyfour]

https://www.benzoinfo.com/forced-switching-or-stopping/

 

Website Benzo Information Coalition

 

Section "About benzodiazepines -

Deprescribing Risks - Forced Switching or Stopping"

 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

I'm just asking some feedback or advice about what to do. I feel like I'm on a dead end street between CNS dysregulation, clonazepam long term side effects and impossibility to stop it becouse of inevitable and fatal setbacks. 

[Shep]

8 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I'm just asking some feedback or advice about what to do. I feel like I'm on a dead end street between CNS dysregulation, clonazepam long term side effects and impossibility to stop it becouse of inevitable and fatal setbacks. 

 

Thanks for posting the link, 54. Usually that website is really good, but that's not a well-researched article. The part you mentioned is here:

 

And Klonopin (clonazepam), one of the nitro-benzodiazepines, has actually the highest incidence of adverse effects in the benzodiazepine-harmed community. Withdrawal symptoms from Klonopin also increase markedly with accumulation of the drug, much of which is due to action of the inactive metabolites as well as the parent drug.

 

They don't reference or link to any research that shows that Klonopin has the highest incident of adverse effects. It's anecdotal from reading withdrawal forums. But you'll find people suffering from all of the benzos, including Valium, which is supposed to be the most mild. Yet, many people get trapped on it with horrific withdrawal symptoms. 

 

But back to your main point about what to do now. What dose were you on before your last reduction on November 18? 

[Shep]

On 11/3/2022 at 6:02 AM, 54fiftyfour said:

I have an infection with gum abscess and will need to go to my dentist. It is possible/probable that I will have to take the anesthetic before doing the internal cleansing of the bacteria. Can I have dangerous consequences on my debilitated nervous system?

 

I was reading back through your thread - did you recover completely from your dental work? Or are you still having problems that may be affecting how you feel overall after this last reduction? 

[54fiftyfour]

I recovery completely from my dental work. No anesthesia, no problem, no stress from it.

 

I have taken the following dosages:

 

November 7-10 (4 days): 0,12+0,46

November 11-13 (3 days): 0,11+0,46

November 14-17 (4 days): 0,10+0,46

November 18-27 (10 days): 0.09+0,46

November 28-December 4: 0,09+0,45

 

The total taper in the last four weeks will be -6,9%. I'm tapering - especially the mornin dose - becouse the side effects of clonazepam are too strong for me. It's an antiepilettic drug. The article of Benzo Info Coalition specifies that this drug, unlike Xanax or Valium, links to the specific central receptors of benzodiazepines and is not easily replaceable with other drugs without adverse reactions. Yesterday my psychiatrist advice me again to switch from Clonazepam to Valium, but I'm scared.

 

I can't tolerate, in particular, the following direct side effects from clonazepam: suicidal depression; derealization; muscle weakness and pain (I can't make any effort and sometime I can't move or stand correctly since I've been taking it); dysarthria; gut issues; difficulty breathing; chronic fatigue; inflammation in the urinary tract; etc.

 

There are other symptoms I can connect both to trazodone WD and clonazepam tolerance/accumulation: extreme anxiety, distress and slimming (-17 kg.); total anhedonia and loss of positive emotions; cramps; tinnitus; palpitations; burning skin sensation; fasciculations; strong emotional lability; leg tremors; agitation; breathlessness; mental confusion; total loss of libido; etc.

 

Day by day I have the sensation that I'm slowly going to die, even if I don't want. Things are not improving and I'm more and more faible.

 

My goal would be to taper untill 0,50 mg. (0,08+0,42) next month, moving gradually the morning dose toward the night. In this regard, I recently asked a question. When I get to a point where I have to take two very close doses (for example 0,8 at 21.00 and 0,42 at 22.00), wan't this cause problems?

 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

I know that, may be, I'm running with my taper, but I noticed that, even standing stopped at the same dose for one month (for example September, 12 - October, 9), my symptoms didn't get better, on the countrary were devastating some days. It's difficult to understand what to do. Clonazepam is really destructive.  

[Shep]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:13 AM, 54fiftyfour said:

I recovery completely from my dental work. No anesthesia, no problem, no stress from it.

 

This is an excellent update, 54. The fact that you were able to get through this so well is a sign that your body is resilient. I know you're struggling, but your body is still strong, holding up even when an infection sets in. 

 

On 12/2/2022 at 6:13 AM, 54fiftyfour said:

My goal would be to taper untill 0,50 mg. (0,08+0,42) next month, moving gradually the morning dose toward the night. In this regard, I recently asked a question. When I get to a point where I have to take two very close doses (for example 0,8 at 21.00 and 0,42 at 22.00), wan't this cause problems?

 

No, that shouldn't cause a problem. You'll gradually move the dose, allowing your body to adjust to the change. If you find you're going into interdose withdrawal, you can stop moving the drug. This kind of gradual move allows you to be able to catch problems such as interdose withdrawal. 

[54fiftyfour]

I'm gradually tapering the dose of clonazepam, but the more I make it, the more my symptoms increase. In these days I'm experimenting a strong rigidity on legs and back, in addition to the usual, terrible and already described symptoms. Muscle pain is stronger and I can not walk and breath well. This makes me think that the tapering process of clonazepam will always be worse and too hard to end. Clonazepam is too potent and destroyes me over time. Now my system is very hypersensitive. Doesn't it really worth to switch on Diazepam, as my psychiatrist proposes? We already discussed the risks, but I can not resist under this horrible drug.

 

 

[Shep]

10 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

I'm gradually tapering the dose of clonazepam, but the more I make it, the more my symptoms increase.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 6:13 AM, 54fiftyfour said:

I can't tolerate, in particular, the following direct side effects from clonazepam: suicidal depression; derealization; muscle weakness and pain (I can't make any effort and sometime I can't move or stand correctly since I've been taking it); dysarthria; gut issues; difficulty breathing; chronic fatigue; inflammation in the urinary tract; etc.

 

If you're getting worse the more you taper, that's likely withdrawal and not side effects. It's your body telling you to slow down, to hold. 

 

 

11 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Doesn't it really worth to switch on Diazepam, as my psychiatrist proposes? We already discussed the risks, but I can not resist under this horrible drug.

 

Crossovers can be risky in people who are already destabilized. You'll still go into withdrawal from clonazepam. Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid that. The diazepam may or may not cover the withdrawal. 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

13 hours ago, Shep said:

If you're getting worse the more you taper, that's likely withdrawal and not side effects. It's your body telling you to slow down, to hold. 

 

Something is not clear to me here. From the first moment I took clonazepam on the wretch advice of a psychiatrist, I felt worse than before (depression, derealization, anxiety, etc.). I have always had very bad side effects from this drug, in addiction to those from trazodone WD. The only exception is improved sleep, but I start to think that it would have happened anyway. So I can even slow down now, but these side effects will remain and increase with time becouse my CNS will never be in a stable condition while on clonazepam.

 

About this, I've read on Ashton manual that the tolerance/abstinence from benzos raise with time and many of his patients came to her with increasing problems, despite continuing to take their benzo. She also says that, in most cases, the symptoms of abstinence are inevitable when you start to taper, even if you do it slowly. She lists them all in his manual. For this reason I think that, sooner or later, I have to expect anyway an exacerbation of anxiety, insomnia, probably nightmares, depression, psychosis, muscle weakness and pain, tremors, tinnitus, breathlessness and so on. Or not? It seems like a vicious circle or a no-win situation to me.

[54fiftyfour]

BenzoInfo.org publishes the Ashton Manual supplement, in which she writes that even the benzo's dose remains stable, symptoms of abstinence will not be. She also says that it is always better to continue to gradually taper becouse the real recover starts only when the drug is out of our body. I don't know what to think.

 

In my experience sofar, when I kept the same dose for a month between September and October, I did not experiment a stabilization of side effects or bad symptoms. I just mean it's very difficult to understand what is the right thing to do.

[54fiftyfour]

I stopped the taper, but I'm trembling in all the body, expecially legs. Besides I have the sensation that I'm becoming crazy. My thoughts are so confused...

[54fiftyfour]

Shep, could this worsening due to my rapid taper in the morning dose? It's several days I'm developing a form of akathisia and my tremors are visible. Is this the cost to pay to clonazepam abstinence?

[Shep]

32 minutes ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Shep, could this worsening due to my rapid taper in the morning dose? It's several days I'm developing a form of akathisia and my tremors are visible. Is this the cost to pay to clonazepam abstinence?

 

How much have you been reducing? What dose were you on in October and November? 

[54fiftyfour]

I was at 0,16 mg. (morning) and 0,46 mg. (night) from September, 15 to October, 9 (25 days). Then:

 

October 10-21 (12 days): 0,15+0,46 (total 0,61)

October 22-25 (4 days): 0,15+0,45 (total 0,60)

October 26-30 (5 days): 0,14+0,45 (total 0,59)

October 31 - November 6 (7 days): 0,13+0,45 (total 0,58).

 

During 27 days I tapered from 0,61 to 0,58 in total (-4,9%), but from 0,16 to 0,13 in the morning (-23,1%). Then:

 

November 7-10 (4 days): 0,12+0,46 (total 0,58)

November 11-13 (3 days): 0,11+0,46 (total 0,57)

November 14-17 (3 days): 0,10+0,46 (total 0,56)

November 18-27 (10 days): 0,09+0,46 (total 0,55)

November 28 - December 4 (7 days): 0,09+0,45 (total 0,54)

December 5-14 (10 days): 0,08+0,45 (total 0,53).

 

During 29 days (November 7 - December 5) I tapered from 0,58 to 0,53 (-8,6%), but from 0,12 to 0,08 in the morning (-50%).

 

I have less severe depression in the morning, but anxiety and a form of akathisia and visible tremors in all the body (expecially legs, where I started to have stronger pain and weakness too) have increased.

 

I also tried to move the morning dose to 11.00 and then 12.00, but the above mentioned symptoms forced me to stop. I'm really scared and do not have any protection "network".

 

 

 

 

 

[54fiftyfour]

Sorry, the reduction from 0,12 ti 0,08 is -33,3%, not -50%.

[54fiftyfour]

I experimented also a lot of cardiac palpitations during night and day.

[Shep]

@54fiftyfourIt's good you're keeping your taper less than 10% a month, but you may want to hold and rest, especially over the holidays. Many people find the holidays to be stressful and holding can help. Even if it's doesn't make you feel better, holding may keep you from feeling worse. 

[54fiftyfour]

Shep, I will hold, but I think that my past history of medications and cold turkey interruptions compromised a lot my CNS balance. This problem complicate the already very difficult clonazepam taper even more. I will need an incalcolable period of time with a very uncertain outcome. Don't you agree?

[Shep]

We cannot predict the future, 54. All we can do is work on building skills and resiliency for whatever the future holds. 

[54fiftyfour]

My sufference has furtherly increased from when I accelerated the clonazepam taper. Today I've a lot of strong symptoms from this and this is terrible. Anxiety, in particular, is unbearable. In my opinion, it could depend also from the interdose difference (0,08 + 0,45), but I wouldn't come back to the previous morning dose, becouse it gave me more depression than now. Should I think that, if I resist at these dosages, my symptoms get a little better sooner or later? Or they can also get worse?

[Shep]

21 hours ago, 54fiftyfour said:

Should I think that, if I resist at these dosages, my symptoms get a little better sooner or later? Or they can also get worse?

 

What do you mean by "resist at these dosages"? 

[54fiftyfour]

Intendo rimanere a 0,08 mg in the morning and 0,45 in the night, even if my symptoms are unbearable.